BREXIT

[Filo]

That's the sort of country that Vote Leave want you to live in. One where you can be safely assumed to be so pig ignorant that you can be fed lie after lie after lie and have your opinions bent and twisted like this. I wonder what their real drive is? They KNOW thst there's not a scrap of truth in these arguments. So why are they peddling them? What's the real issue at stake for them?

We allready live in that sort of Country with the current Tory Government, George Osbourne proved that last night

What do you make of Sarah Wollaston's decision because of Vote Leave's Big Lie then Filo?

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

[Glyn_Wigley]

That's the sort of country that Vote Leave want you to live in. One where you can be safely assumed to be so pig ignorant that you can be fed lie after lie after lie and have your opinions bent and twisted like this. I wonder what their real drive is? They KNOW thst there's not a scrap of truth in these arguments. So why are they peddling them? What's the real issue at stake for them?

We allready live in that sort of Country with the current Tory Government, George Osbourne proved that last night

What do you make of Sarah Wollaston's decision because of Vote Leave's Big Lie then Filo?

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

Really? What she going to gain then, apart from a lot of abuse from the Brexiters?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo
I didn't see that programme but you are not being fair here. I've seen the transcript of the interview and Osborne did NOT say that Airbus would leave the UK after Brexit. He said EXACTLY what the chief executive of Airbus said, which is that Brexit would threaten Airbus's future investment in the UK.

There's no equality here. One side is lying every day. The other isn't. It's that simple.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

Well, it explains Boris jumping on the Leave bandwagon at the last minute because it suits his masterplan.

[Filo]

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

Well, it explains Boris jumping on the Leave bandwagon at the last minute because it suits his masterplan.

I agree, you can't have it both ways Glynn

[Glyn_Wigley]

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

Well, it explains Boris jumping on the Leave bandwagon at the last minute because it suits his masterplan.

I agree, you can't have it both ways Glynn

But I can see why Boris has done it for personal gain, whereas I can't see what personal gain Wollaston stands to get. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

[Filo]

Filo
I didn't see that programme but you are not being fair here. I've seen the transcript of the interview and Osborne did NOT say that Airbus would leave the UK after Brexit. He said EXACTLY what the chief executive of Airbus said, which is that Brexit would threaten Airbus's future investment in the UK.

There's no equality here. One side is lying every day. The other isn't. It's that simple.

You should watch it if you get the chance, totally humiliated

[Filo]

Nothing, MP's are defecting on a regular basis, it's usually for their own gain

Well, it explains Boris jumping on the Leave bandwagon at the last minute because it suits his masterplan.

I agree, you can't have it both ways Glynn

But I can see why Boris has done it for personal gain, whereas I can't see what personal gain Wollaston stands to get. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Prrhaps she has an eye on a cabinet position if a teshuffle occurs should we remain, Cameron will want rid of remain campaigners that is for sure

[BillyStubbsTears]

What? And you reckon that thought suddenly came to her last night?

[Filo]

What? And you reckon that thought suddenly came to her last night?

Timing Billy lad, timing 😊

[bobjimwilly]

It's also interesting how so many of the Leave campaign are complaining about the extension to register for vote, as if it's an advantage for the remain campaign? Surely allowing more people the chance to vote is only beneficial to democracy?

Just as a side note I saw a great quote recently,
"Not all people who vote to leave the EU are racist, but all racists will be voting to leave the EU"

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Another line in that reprehensible flyer that I received this morning.

"Expert opinion is divided. It's up to you to make your own decision."

Breathtaking. In the economic effect of Brexit, I assume by "divided" they mean "9 in 10 senior economists are on one side, a few are unsure and a slack handful of people with a history of pushing failed ideas are on the other", then I guess they are right.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

This is the main tactic of Leave. Disparage everyone who produces sober, cautious expert consideration, but up no counter arguments other than "they are all wrong because we say so" and trust people to vote from an uninformed position.

Dreadful for democracy and potentially dreadful for the country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually, the longer the campaign goes on, the more the Leave side looks like the mad far right of the Republican Party. For years they have been sticking the boot into anyone who espouses views against their core beliefs. Not through the usual approach of reasoned argument, but by claiming that the experts who oppose them have been bought off and can't be trusted.

That is exactly what Leave have been doing throughout this campaign.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/25/vote-leave-attacks-ifs-thinktank-brexit-austerity-paid-up-propaganda-arm

It is utterly disgraceful to accuse the IFS of being a "paid up propaganda arm of the EU".  And it plays into this desperately corrosive attitude that you should trust no-one and just go with your own uninformed prejudices.

Would you trust your own ideas on how aircraft work or would you prefer to believe the experts who study and apply the fundamentals? Would you trust your own idea of how to build a 200m long bridge, or would you prefer to have expert engineers do it?

I've long thought that anyone who believes that everyone in public life is a charlatan, a fool or a crook is probably revealing more than they should about themselves.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the mendacity just keeps on rolling in.

John Redwood today in the Express.
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/678044/Life-post-Brexit-money-spending-UK-NHS-EU-referendum-regulations-John-Redwood

"After all, we know we can spend our own money on making more people in the UK better off by providing them with decent jobs with better public services."

Sounds wonderful eh?

Hang on. John Redwood? John Redwood?

Oh aye. It's THAT John Redwood who called the IFS the "paid up propaganda arm of the EU." It's THAT John Redwood who published a book last decade giving the detailed case for why we should stop spending public money on public services and privatise them instead.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Third-Way-Private-Enterprise-Public-Service/dp/1898253498

As one reviewer said:
"(Chapters 2 and 3)...look at public monopolies and free enterprise services respectively - every one of their advantages and disadvantages examined, with the conclusion that introducing free enterprise wherever possible means a better service. These chapters stand alone as wonderful cases for privatisation, and provide a very good reference point for anyone involved in that debate.
The rest of the book is then devoted to ideas on transport policy and why private finance and other ideas offer the best hope for Britain's roads, rail network and skies."

But now, THIS new John Redwood would take the figure of £350m per week that he lies about and he'd spend it on nice cuddly things like schools and libraries and nurses. Bless him.

[Dn2Dn0]

Just when you thought the disgraceful lies couldn't get any worse, we now have John Major and Tony Blair advising leaving the EU could have an impact on the NI peace process. This, out of everything that has been said, is the most ill thought stance to take. Nobody wants to go back to the days of the troubles so even suggesting this is a possibility with absolutely no factual backing is deplorable.

How Tony Blair even has the audacity to show his face in public when he should held accountable for war crimes, never mind spouting out this rubbish is beyond me.

Their comments have rightly been condemned by those in NI who have to live with any consequences that this pathetic statement may incur. I actually believe the remain will win at a canter but these kind of lies do appear to have an air of desperation about them.

[Lipsy]

They just can't help themselves, can they?

"Northern Ireland would face a “serious difficulty” if the United Kingdom votes to leaves the European Union, the Irish prime minister, Enda Kenny, has said.

In a sign of the deep unease in Dublin at the prospect of a British exit, Kenny suggested that the success of the Northern Ireland peace process was in part linked to the UK and the Irish Republic’s joint membership of the EU."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/25/northern-ireland-irish-republic-eu-referendum-enda-kenny

[BillyStubbsTears]

In what way can't they help themselves?

The more this campaign goes on, the more people are corralled into this conspiracy that the Brexiters have concocted. Basically, anyone who points out the potentially negative aspects of Brexit are labelled as scaremongers, being on the gravy train or liars.

Why on earth the leaders of Ireland, France, Germany, India, Australia, Japan, China, Canada and the USA should all be conspiring to lie to the British people is beyond me.

At some point, you have to sit down and make a list of the people who are warning on the consequences of Brexit, and the ones who are saying it'll be fine. And when you've made that list, look at is dispassionately. Strike through the names of all the people whom you have a reasonable reason, based on track record, to consider to be mendacious. Then see who you e got left.

[RedJ]

In what way can't they help themselves?

The more this campaign goes on, the more people are corralled into this conspiracy that the Brexiters have concocted. Basically, anyone who points out the potentially negative aspects of Brexit are labelled as scaremongers, being on the gravy train or liars.

Why on earth the leaders of Ireland, France, Germany, India, Australia, Japan, China, Canada and the USA should all be conspiring to lie to the British people is beyond me.

At some point, you have to sit down and make a list of the people who are warning on the consequences of Brexit, and the ones who are saying it'll be fine. And when you've made that list, look at is dispassionately. Strike through the names of all the people whom you have a reasonable reason, based on track record, to consider to be mendacious. Then see who you e got left.

As I've already said. Exactly how the independence referendum 'debate' panned out. The SNP's rebuttal came in the form of "stop talking Scotland down" type rhetoric.

[Lipsy]

I'm sorry BST - I didn't make my sarcasm obvious. Apologies for that.

The link I posted was a news item about the fact that the Irish PM had said earlier in the year that peace in Ireland could be under threat if the UK voted out of the EU.

In my not at all clear way, I was pointing out that the idea that the destabilisation of Ireland was not some BS concocted by Major and Blair, and that - in fact - this had been mooted by a pretty credible source.

In short (sort of): I agree with you, BST. I'm sick of 'Leave' folks jumping up and down like mardy little gobshites, clutching at a right load of old ballacks and masquerading as the folks who want to make the country 'great' again, etc etc etc. That and the scrotes that hate foreigners/Muslims/others [delete as appropriate], but definitely aren't voting to leave because they're racist... Again, etc etc etc...

[Copps is Magic]

This whole campaign has been a terrible moment for British politics. Full of lies and scaremongering on both sides. As others have alluded to, damn shame no one put forward a mainstream left wing campaign for leaving. No doubt in part due to the death of Tony Benn and muffled half-baked opinions of Corbyn and the Green party. I wanted to hear more about the effects of the CAP, schengen block, and Euro trading bloc on developing countries; about the rise of corporatism and the state of inequality in Europe; on localism, democracy and the rise of bureaucracy. Instead we're in this weird malaise again where the choice  is somehow tied to the economic fortunes of "us". As if "we" are all equal. If by 'us' they mean the capitalist class, big business, neo-liberal economists and an incumbent group of politicians who support them, then we might just be better off being worse off. A far more meaningful and convincing argument to me would have been on the fate of social arenas such as science and education for example. In such areas, the best guesses show 'we' would indeed be worse off by leaving.

[Dn2Dn0]

I'm sorry BST - I didn't make my sarcasm obvious. Apologies for that.

The link I posted was a news item about the fact that the Irish PM had said earlier in the year that peace in Ireland could be under threat if the UK voted out of the EU.

In my not at all clear way, I was pointing out that the idea that the destabilisation of Ireland was not some BS concocted by Major and Blair, and that - in fact - this had been mooted by a pretty credible source.

In short (sort of): I agree with you, BST. I'm sick of 'Leave' folks jumping up and down like mardy little gobshites, clutching at a right load of old ballacks and masquerading as the folks who want to make the country 'great' again, etc etc etc. That and the scrotes that hate foreigners/Muslims/others [delete as appropriate], but definitely aren't voting to leave because they're racist... Again, etc etc etc...

So Enda Kenny doesn't have another agenda? The UK leaving the EU wouldn't possibly have a detrimental effect on Ireland so he's willing to join in with the scaremongering?

Do you seriously believe that a leave vote could result in the troubles starting back up? I wasn't aware the republicans and unionists made UKs membership of the EU an important factor of the Good Friday Agreement.

The point I was making is the continual lies from both sides don't help anybody in what is a serious important decision. For what it's worth I'm undecided but you should've told me earlier that the debates as simple as, if you want to remain you're a good person and if you want to leave you're a racist. Why don't they just make the ballot paper "Are you a racist yes or no"? To say the polls are calling it almost neck and neck your beliefs don't say much for a large proportion of the UK population do they?

[Lipsy]

The comment about racists was made because I had an argument elsewhere with an EDL supporter/sympathiser about the EU. He called me a Leftie, and when I pointed out that sharing anti-Muslim "jokes" and 'fit it in or pack your bags and f**k off home' slogans (and a whole raft of other filth) seemed to suggest he was a bit racist, he didn't agree with me oddly enough... I am certainly not suggesting that EVERYONE that wants to vote 'Leave' will do so because they're racist or unpleasant. I would, however, argue that there are a helluva a lot of people in this nation of ours that will vote to leave the EU entirely because of immigration and because they are a bit racist.

I was expressing a bit of frustration about an experience I've had. Nothing more.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sorry Lipsy. My misunderstanding.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'd have thought it was bleeding obvious why Brexit could stoke up trouble in NI.

The Troubles fed on two issues: mutually incompatible views of nationality and economic backwardness.

The EU has helped hugely on the economic side. That is its primary purpose. It invests money in poor areas to bring them up. Turn off that tap and the old economic frictions will be back in a generation. (And don't say: well we British could invest our own money in NI thank you very much. We had centuries to do that and we failed spectacularly.)

The bigger one is nationality. The biggest success of the peace process has been downplaying nationalism and getting both sides to see that they are part of a bigger whole. Brexit will inevitably mean a more muscular re-assertion of British identity and national status. The implications of that in NI are obvious.

But no. I'm sure it's not about that. It's just a bunch of politicians all over the world making things up again eh?

[Dn2Dn0]

So the multi party governing system that is currently in place will also be scrapped as part of the UK leaving the EU? Processes have been put in place that have been signed into constitution to hopefully stop some members of NI being effectively classed as second class citizens. Would an elected British Govt really risk changing this set up and relighting the fire just because it is no longer a member of the EU? I personally don't believe it would.

Look at who is also suggesting this scenario. Enda Kenny, a man who is holding onto office in Ireland by his finger nails and should really have resigned following the recent election. John Major, the least said about him the better and Tony Blair who will hopefully get his comeuppance shortly. As opposed to the current NI First Minister who branded the comments "disgraceful" but her views don't sit with the remain point of view so I guess they don't matter.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The comment about racists was made because I had an argument elsewhere with an EDL supporter/sympathiser about the EU. He called me a Leftie, and when I pointed out that sharing anti-Muslim "jokes" and 'fit it in or pack your bags and f**k off home' slogans (and a whole raft of other filth) seemed to suggest he was a bit racist, he didn't agree with me oddly enough... I am certainly not suggesting that those that want to vote 'Leave' will do so because they're racist or unpleasant. I would, however, argue that there are a helluva a lot of people in this nation of ours that will vote to leave the EU entirely because of immigration and because they are a bit racist.

I was expressing a bit of frustration about an experience I've had. Nothing more.

Oh aye...the EDL. They've got a bit quiet now that their one policy of screaming at Islamists telling them to bugger off back to the Middle East worked out really well, haven't they?

[BobG]

I heard on Radio 4 tonight various folk slagging off John Major and Tony Blair for claiming exit could close the nigh on century old open border between NI and Eire. Some fathead woman claiming it had been open all through the Troubles so why would it shut just because of a vote to leave the EU?

There's none so blind is there.... How else are you going to stop all these terrible Jonny Foreigners walking across the border from Schengen Eire into the welfare handout paradise that is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

And, by the way, just how are the exit people proposing to stop countless hordes of those self same Foreigners from walking across the border between Carlisle and Gretna and all the other places when the Scots vote to leave the union and stay in the EC after we take our ball home? We'd either have no bloody control at all then, or, all those wonderful 350 million would have to be spent creating a new Hadrian's Wall to keep the buggers out.

BobG

[Lipsy]

The EDL and their like are not nearly quiet enough for my liking, sadly. Perhaps they appear to be a little more subdued because they see this EU vote as a small step in the right direction. That was certainly the sense I got when I had my little disagreement with the little scrote.

[Lipsy]

Just this. I appreciate it's a couple of years old, but it's just bloody perfect.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft338yltVLE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft338yltVLE</a>

[wilts rover]

So the multi party governing system that is currently in place will also be scrapped as part of the UK leaving the EU? Processes have been put in place that have been signed into constitution to hopefully stop some members of NI being effectively classed as second class citizens. Would an elected British Govt really risk changing this set up and relighting the fire just because it is no longer a member of the EU? I personally don't believe it would.

Look at who is also suggesting this scenario. Enda Kenny, a man who is holding onto office in Ireland by his finger nails and should really have resigned following the recent election. John Major, the least said about him the better and Tony Blair who will hopefully get his comeuppance shortly. As opposed to the current NI First Minister who branded the comments "disgraceful" but her views don't sit with the remain point of view so I guess they don't matter.

It's not the people who believe in the peace agreement who are the potential problem though - it's the ones who dont. There were Republican paramilitaries on the streets as recently as April - and protestants rioting with the police because they couldn't have their way in last years marching season. They may be a minority - but they are a bloody dangerous one.

Will a period of economic uncertainty cause social unrest and allow these fringe elements to recruit a new generation of unemployed, angry and frustrated youngsters who want to take out their frustration on someone somewhere? In Northern Ireland they dont have far to look.

I agree it is all part of 'Project Fear' to link this possibility up with the EU debate - but I wouldn't be so glib as to just laugh it off if I were you. History goes back a long way over there.