Brexit Negotiations

[selby]

  Leaves it open to build Boeing's Or Lockheed Billy, or even throw in our lot with the Chinese, who will be big players soon in this sphere, and would jump at our expertise.
  We will not leave without an agreement, I like the discussion Billy, and do see your points, but you project every negative subject you can like project fear, and then take umbrance and say everything the brexiteers say is fantasy and lies.
   It will get sorted, and then there will be a period of adjustment, and there is I suppose still a very very small chance of the whole thing being scrapped altogether, which would be fun.
   I don't know anybody who I talk to whether original remainer or brexiteer who have changed their minds about the subject matter, I do know a couple of mates who like me voted to remain, but if there was another vote would vote out now, on the principle that the original vote should be respected.
   

[Glyn_Wigley]

   I don't know anybody who I talk to whether original remainer or brexiteer who have changed their minds about the subject matter, I do know a couple of mates who like me voted to remain, but if there was another vote would vote out now, on the principle that the original vote should be respected.   

That reminds of what Spike Milligan, in one of his war diaries, said about the Army approach:

'If a man dies when you hang him, keep on hanging him till he gets used to it.'

[RedJ]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. That's b*llocks. What an absolutely ridiculous way to decide on how you'd vote.

So say you've been a die hard Labour voter, but your seat returns a Tory MP. Do you then decide in all future elections to vote Conservative because that's what everyone else said before?

The rest of your post is pure fantasy "it'll be alright on the night" stuff.

[DaveDRFC]

One of my mates said he wanted to Remain but voted Leave as he wanted to be a bit of a rebel and didn't think Leave would ever win. I just shook my head at him when he told me that. One of many reasons why Joe Public should have never even been given the decision to make.

[Ldr]

Lets be real, no one (not even the great BST) can tell the future. We have all voted on gut feeling and what we want to happen. Both sides did (and supporters continue to) spew bile and rumour. Not one of you on here can know what is going on in the negotiations for real as we are fed shit and half truths from the UK and EU side of this now (despite how many articles from so called experts ppl post)

Vote leave or vote remain. It is happening. Ppl can spend their time with self righteous "I know best" posts or we can all get on with life and deal with what comes when it comes

[MachoMadness]

I like to think some of us voted based on facts and not gut feeling Ldr.

[Ldr]

When I look back I cannot remember many "facts" been truthful tbh

[MachoMadness]

Economy slowing in line with what they predicted? Companies bailing out? Tory government more interested in infighting and building up their own CVs than sorting out a deal for the country? The Ireland border seemingly unsolvable under the current course? All of this was predicted before the vote, and all of it's happened.

[Ldr]

Doesn't change what I am trying to say. Its happening. You can feel sorry for yourself about it or make the best of it

[MachoMadness]

For some of us, speaking out about the country being hoodwinked by foreign investors and British millionaires trying to line their own pockets is making the best of it. Some people interpret that as talking the country down, but really, it's quite the opposite. I want my country to be f**king great, I don't want it pickpocketing by shysters.

[Ldr]

Id agree with that

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

I agree with what you say. Brexit is happening. That’s certain.

The important point is though, that there’s a multitude of different ways in which it can happen.

This Govt has CHOSEN to make it happen in a very particular way that is much harder than many of the Leave side said it would be. Farage, back in 2016, was touting a Norway-style arrangement for us post-Brexit. But we are actually going for a much bigger separation from the EU than Norway has. They are members of the EEA and the Single Market. May has CHOSEN not to go for that approach. She has done so, not in the country’s best interests but because there is a majority in the Tory party (not in the country) for a hard Brexit and she wouldn’t survive as PM if she went for a softer Brexit.

What has happened is that the vote to leave was made with no clarity whatsoever about what leaving meant. It’s pretty well nailed on that if the choice in 2016 had been between Remain and THIS type of leaving, the vote would have gone the other way.

You say we should make the best of it. I agree 100%. That means arguing against THIS type of Brexit because it will have very serious negative consequences for us.

You say both sides have spouted lies and no-one can predict the future. But as MM says, the key predictions of the Remain side ARE coming true. And there is nothing being out forward by the hard Brexiters other than assurances that it’ll be alright. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Lets be real, no one (not even the great BST) can tell the future. We have all voted on gut feeling and what we want to happen. Both sides did (and supporters continue to) spew bile and rumour. Not one of you on here can know what is going on in the negotiations for real as we are fed shit and half truths from the UK and EU side of this now (despite how many articles from so called experts ppl post)

Vote leave or vote remain. It is happening. Ppl can spend their time with self righteous "I know best" posts or we can all get on with life and deal with what comes when it comes

It's been a while since we've seen the good old 'I don't know about it so no-one knows about it' defence.

[selby]

  Another thing a few on here should learn, is that saying people's thoughts are fantasy, b*llocks, and ridiculing the way they vote is counter productive, and is not a discussion they will win.
   It is far more likely to make people more entrenched to vote the opposite to what you want.

[RedJ]

Even when they are fantasy and b*llocks?

[Ldr]

What makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's?

[selby]

  You see, when politics come from the gutter Rj, that's where they will end up.
  No doubt you will be a great leader one day.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's?

Knowledge, experience and wisdom tend to give validity. Just saying no-one knows anything - or as selby puts it, calling other peoples' thoughts b*llocks - gives no validity at all.

[Ldr]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.

My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Airbus warning about Brexit has also been backed up by BMW today. That’s the biggest news of the day regarding Brexit.

Have a look how much prominence The Express gives it.
https://www.express.co.uk

Or The Sun when you search their site for “Brexit”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/?s=Brexit

Or The Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.html

Why do you think they are not telling their readers about this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

I’ve only just fully read your post at the top of this page.

A couple of responses.
1) You trot out the Project Fear line. What I do is to post facts. Demonstrable facts. Facts like the fact that our economic growth has fallen way behind that of the rest of the developed world since the vote. Facts like the fact that Airbus (and now BMW) are on record as seriously considering their future in the UK because of Brexit.

It is childish and frankly, a bit embarrassing for you to say that this is projecting negatives. I’m projecting facts. If you have issues with those then by all means counter them. If you say, “Ner, ner! Project Fear!” then you kind of make point 2 for me.

2) You accuse me of accusing Brexiters of being fantasists and liars. You say that it’ll all get sorted out. Well here’s the thing. It’s been 2 years since the vote. We leave in 9 months. We have seen nothing from the Brexiters to indicate what sort of deal we’re going to get. We’ve seen nothing concrete about how they solve the Irish issue. What we have seen is vague hand waving “it’ll be alright, some hitherto nonexistent technology will sort it all out” claims. And we’ve seen every prediction of problems dismissed as Project Fear. And when those predictions come from the Govt’s own analyses, we’ve seen lies about the very existence of the predictions. So, to be frank, I’m struggling to see how the terms “fantasy” and “lies” are in anyway inappropriate.

Finally, here’s a thing. There’s been a string of Hard Brexit Tories in the trenches today, accusing Airbus of being part of Project Fear. Not one of them has explained how on Earth it would be in Airbus’s interests to invent or exaggerate the negatives of Brexit. If Brexit wasn’t going to cause them a problem, why on Earth should they have issued the report they did today, which says it WILL cause them an enormous problem?

[RedJ]

What makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's?

It isn't just my opinion though is it? There's nothing to suggest that things will "be alright". Everything he's said is purely based on what he thinks will happen, not what the evidence actually points towards happening. But then I suppose we're tired of hearing from experts, eh...

I notice he didn't bother to address what I said about his voting intentions though. Because he knows that it is absolute nonsense.

[selby]

  Glyn, just to make one thing clear, I have not called anyones thoughts on any subject B*ll*cks,I responded to that language being used about my post.
   I do not have a problem people thinking it, but I will respond  to it on here.
   I accept your point of view, I enjoy the debate          ( although sometimes it feels like being preached to ) and I agree with many of the points being raised, but some people use the wrong language.

[selby]

  Rj, I am quite open about my voting,In general elections I have never voted anything else but Labour in my life.
   On brexit I voted to stay in, in the unlikely event of another vote on brexit, I would vote to come out of the EU.
  The present leadership of the labour party, and the way the party is heading would make it hard for me at present to vote for any of the parties in a general election.

[SydneyRover]

  Rj, I am quite open about my voting,In general elections I have never voted anything else but Labour in my life.
   On brexit I voted to stay in, in the unlikely event of another vote on brexit, I would vote to come out of the EU.
  The present leadership of the labour party, and the way the party is heading would make it hard for me at present to vote for any of the parties in a general election.

So you would vote to put us out of Europe and pretty much isolated in the middle of the richest trading block in the world and condemn Briton to a continued slide in growth and GDP for the foreseable future on the view of a party that is not in power with a leadership that may only be temporary?
 

[Ldr]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.

My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.

You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me

[Ldr]

Ldr.

I agree with what you say. Brexit is happening. That’s certain.

The important point is though, that there’s a multitude of different ways in which it can happen.

This Govt has CHOSEN to make it happen in a very particular way that is much harder than many of the Leave side said it would be. Farage, back in 2016, was touting a Norway-style arrangement for us post-Brexit. But we are actually going for a much bigger separation from the EU than Norway has. They are members of the EEA and the Single Market. May has CHOSEN not to go for that approach. She has done so, not in the country’s best interests but because there is a majority in the Tory party (not in the country) for a hard Brexit and she wouldn’t survive as PM if she went for a softer Brexit.

What has happened is that the vote to leave was made with no clarity whatsoever about what leaving meant. It’s pretty well nailed on that if the choice in 2016 had been between Remain and THIS type of leaving, the vote would have gone the other way.

You say we should make the best of it. I agree 100%. That means arguing against THIS type of Brexit because it will have very serious negative consequences for us.

You say both sides have spouted lies and no-one can predict the future. But as MM says, the key predictions of the Remain side ARE coming true. And there is nothing being out forward by the hard Brexiters other than assurances that it’ll be alright. 

And thats indicitive of the stupid way the process has worked out. Leave / Remain campaigns were very independent from party lines, now the whole broken westminster system has to conduct the exit and parties are more interested in party politics than whats the best Brexit achieveable

For what its worth to Glyn et al. I voted out (shock) if the vote was again I would vote out again. If you don't think I have second guessed myself every day for the last 2 years you are kidding yourselves.  What I won't do is look down on people who have a different opinion or claim superiority or greater validity because of my background as I value all opinions even if mine differ. Do I think all the EU is bad? no, do I subscribe to the thought process that some have that coming out of the EU means the scrapping of all EU safeguards that currently apply, I do not. I do think we can set such things in the UK parliament without the need to be part of what is fast becoming a federal europe.

To those that are concerned about money. I share the concern. I would however like your opinion on the massive fiscal bail outs on EU countries

[RedJ]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.

My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.

You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me

Well someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.

[Ldr]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.

My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.

You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me

Well someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.

More informed does not equate to more valid. Basically you are dismissing the opinion of everyone who then forms it differently as less valid which is not the case. Everyones opinion is valid