Brexit Negotiations

[MachoMadness]

So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?

Remain means Remain.

[Sprotyrover]

So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?

Best of three?

Do we go on and on it's a nightmare.

[RedJ]

We would have if Leave had lost. Farage basically said he'd not give up until we'd left.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I'm not getting mixed up about anything. You on the other hand need to look a little deeper into this.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/3069

1998.

"A council of the Isles and an assembly is not what people have laid down their lives for over thirty years. We want peace, but the settlement must be just and the settlement must be for an agreed and united Ireland.''

I know there's a lot of alternative histories written these days but I don't know how you square that with support for the GFA in 1998.

It's crystal clear in those words. He wanted peace, "but" not on the terms of the GFA in 1998.

Where would we have been now if his vision had won the day in 1998?

You are talking about the stupid thing he said (and apologised for) in 2003. It's a totally different stand at a totally different time. He was right in 2003, but he was wrong, and dangerously so in 1998.

In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?

I bet you were gutted when they signed the Good Friday Agreement. All those IRA murderers being let off. If only we had kept fighting and kept the population of Northern Ireland in fear of their lives and brought death and misery to dozens more innocent families including those of British soldiers. And dont you come at me with you don't know what you are talking about either - I have been 3 minutes away from a bomb going off.

If members of the royal family can shake hands with prominent former IRA leaders - who are you to tell anyone what is and isn't moral?

Still someone got shot by paramiliteries over the weekend so if your Brexit does go properly wrong you might get your way of bringing real chaos back to the country.

Wilts.

I agree with everything you say there.

But if we're talking about people not wanting the GFA to be signed, there was, as you well know, a person who is now very prominent in national politics who said at the time that an Assembly was not what people had laid down their lives for, and that anything less than a United Ireland was unacceptable.

I assume you agree with me that he was wrong. Because he was clearly advocating that the armed struggle should go on. And you're saying that it was right that the armed struggle ended then.

Sorry Billy I am afraid I dont know who you are referring to? As it must be someone who has the same views as blackpool is it someone in the DUP?

It is clearly not either Corbyn or McDonnell as they both spoke and campaigned for the GFA. McDonnell's speech to a republican meeting where he made the comments blackpool misquoted above were to persuade them to fully implement the GFA (so he said) and Corbyn said he hoped it would bring 'peace, hope and reconciliation in Ireland' when spoke for it in Parliament?

I think you are getting mixed up with with the Thatcher's Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 which Corbyn (and others) did oppose. In which case you are Jacob Rees Mogg and I claim my top hat back!

Agreed on everything else you said tho.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/18/john-mcdonnell-apologises-for-ira-comment-labour
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland

[hoolahoop]

So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?

Best of three?

Do we go on and on it's a nightmare.

However not of the making of any Remainer who bothered unlike some to weigh up the available evidence.
Look I have my 20 year old daughter at uni in Denmark - she is doing what many bright British kids want to do I.e . Get educated abroad and broadenening her horizons . This is the beneficial side of the Eu , however she , like us, are now worried about whether she will be able to carry on after April 2019 - what about her EU funding, her ability to stay and take her exams, her health cover and finally just being able to travel back and forth with ease or finally being able to use her bank card ?

I'm sharing this particularly for bpool's sake as I'm sure he doesn't realise that there are multitudinous areas of our day to day lives, other than the economy, where our society gains much benefit from our being in the EU.

Areas not explored at the time of the Referendum where seemingly the only areas up for discussion were immigration, sovereignty and the CU/SM. Rarely , if ever, were the subjects of education, research and development, the medicines and Euratom agencies mentioned .

We completely ignored the social and moral sides of the argument for staying in the EU whilst concentrating on false arguments on sovereignty, immigration and controls of our money and borders. All 4 of the main arguments were exposed then and have been further exposed since. Immigration won't drop , sovereignty was never lost, Turks were never on their way , there was never to be a European army whilst we had a veto, the NHS were never going to get their Money ( it was never £ 350 million p.w. ) , there are no trade deals just waiting for the ink to dry .

For all of the above , any rational person who even excludes the possibility of overspending, foreign monies and use of fb data should look at this with a fresh eye and come to the conclusion that leaving is not for us . It weakens us in so many areas that it's almost unpatriotic and suicidal to persue such a course for the future of our country and its people .

Time to think again , we have already adversely affected the lives of millions over the last 2 years, why would any sane nation continue down such a path  ?
Yes I know that I have declared a direct interest in the EU project but we all have an interest in it too. It or the lack of it will affect us adversely for decades to come . Why would we want to wait and see bpool ?

A final word on democracy Sproty - why is it not fair for you to have the same vote as before especially if the case for leaving the EU is that strong ? You could of course ignore any facts that are inconvenient and vote Leave  once again . 

[SydneyRover]

Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?

If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The man who was Foreign Secretary until recently called black  people "grinning picaninnies" and said that Obama supported Remain because he was Kenyan and therefore hated Britain.

Did that stop people voting Tory?

Politicians say stupid things. Especially at Conferences where some of them get carried away. Laura Smith is an inexperienced politician who let her mouth run away with her. There's not going to be a revolution or a General Strike, or even a particularly radical Labour economic policy.

[MachoMadness]

Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?

If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.

Post deleted so I can't quote Bpool directly so this'll have to do! What has one Labour MPs views on a general strike got to do with the price of fish? Hoola writes an insightful post about how Brexit affects him personally and you start chuntering about Labour. If you can't answer any of his points and have to deflect that obviously, that's probably a good sign that maybe Brexit isn't what you thought it was.

[Donnywolf]

We are approaching the end game and eventually (imo) there will be a Second Vote on the deal we arrange with the EU or worse still we dont agree

Theresa May still playing the patriotic "card" saying a second vote would be dissing the opinions of those who voted to Leave - and saying its undemocratic. Thats fine but how Democratic was it for (mostly) half her Party to go on and on and on through the last 40 years or so until they finally got Cameron to call the Referendum.

It was / is similar to the Independence movement in Scotland. There has been a movement towards it but in the last Referendum dubbed " a once in a generation" Vote the majority have voted to stay within the Union. Has that been respected by those wanting Independence ? Of course not. They will go on and on (its their Democratic right they will say) unless and until they get another Referendum and carry the day. Then they will tell the minority (even if it is 50.5 to 49.5 for Independence) to shut up because its "democracy" get over it

This is what I see in the current EU debacle. We were in and those opposed kept plugging away until they got their chance. We voted to leave by a small majority - and it has been shown to be a very divisive result. It would have been better (apologies for repeating myself again) if Cameron had have stipulated there needed to be a set figure of (lets say) 60% in order to change the Status Quo but he did not

Leave aside now all the how we got where we are now - such as the Battlebus with 350 Million to the NHS the Electoral cheating - and from the Remainers Project fear and other subterfuge (they were both fighting dirty)- because we are where we are.

However it may be the case that for a variety of reasons the "people" may wish to vote on what is or is not agreed by Theresa May on their behalf - after all in the original stages there were no real facts to work on. Even now voting to leave MAY be the best thing we ever decided but equally there are minds eminently more qualified than I am (a lot on here for example) that say quite simply that it will not be.

There are lots of people whose "ambition" or "dream" of what they thought they voting for in saying Leave will not come to fruition and they probably know that it never will - and on the other side of the coin there are people who have taken against the EU more now even though they voted Remain in the original vote because of how they have reacted to our "demands"

I think (and hope) there will be a Second vote because at that moment in time it is what the democratic will of the people was but I a convinced that as people have become sick of the B****t process and all it entails and have had their eyes opened more and more (still without Facts either way) they have begun to swing more to a Second Vote - and though this may be seen as disrespectful to the original Voters times MAY have changed "democratically" and surely it would just simply be better to test it out again in some form rather than just let what may now be a minority (I dont know !) lead us down a path that the majority (again I hypothesise) may not want - and again as I stated earlier it MAY be the best thing we decided (I dont know)

  Slag me Trash me Ridicule me call me what you will. Its democratic to have free speech and I hope people can at least accept that !

[BillyStubbsTears]

We're certainly coming to crisis point. We are coming to the point of what Brexit was all about - a right-wing coup in the Tory party.

Johnson or Rees-Mogg will be leader this time next year. Meanwhile there is no Brexit deal that doesn't hammer us economically. Question is, when the country realises it's been played and demands another say. Either referendum or General Election. One or the other is coming.

[RedJ]

Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?

If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.

Post deleted so I can't quote Bpool directly so this'll have to do! What has one Labour MPs views on a general strike got to do with the price of fish? Hoola writes an insightful post about how Brexit affects him personally and you start chuntering about Labour. If you can't answer any of his points and have to deflect that obviously, that's probably a good sign that maybe Brexit isn't what you thought it was.

I think he and I have demonstrated repeatedly he has no idea what he's talking about and when you point it out to him he either backtracks or brings up something totally irrelevant then gets personal about it.

[bpoolrover]

I deleted the post as there is no point going round in circles, your never going to change your opinion and I'm not mine

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

If evidence emerged that there was a sane, logical plan to sort out our post-Brexit economy, and to ensure that we remain a mature, welcoming place, I'd change my mind.

Telling that you don't think people are amenable to changing their minds based on facts emerging.

[Donnywolf]

Donnywolf let's say there was a second referendum and leave won again we would still be in the same place, do you think anyone would accept the result?

I think they would have to - and especially if a total was put on it such as at least 55% - that would give it creedence - but as I said (as an ordinary bloke) if the Scots did another Referendum tomorrow and they voted to "stay" in the Union again would Sturgeon and Salmond accept that ?

I know we are not talking about the same subject but the principle is the same. The divided Tory Party and Farage and his pals just kept on going and going and can anyone convince me that had the Vote been Remain last time they would have accepted it and let the rest of us get on with it ?

[bpoolrover]

They might not have accepted it mate but I would have and I think most people who voted leave would have ,they certainly would not have demanded another referendum within a year or 2

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wolf

He was saying on the night before the referendum, when he thought they were going to lose, that this wasn't the end. He said Remain had unfairly bought the vote and he'd be campaigning for another.

The irony is wonderful. His mate, the spiv Arron Banks had pumped £8m into Farage's Leave.EU campaign while having no obvious source of funds. Although he DID have a dozen meetings with the Russian Ambassador. Which he regularly denied until the facts emerged.

[RedJ]

They might not have accepted it mate but I would have and I think most people who voted leave would have ,they certainly would not have demanded another referendum within a year or 2

I take it you've ignored my earlier post. FARAGE HIMSELF said if he lost it wouldn't be the end for the Leave campaign.

People are demanding another vote because it's becoming more and more obvious as more time goes by that we're heading for a shit storm.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

What if we'd voted Remain, then it emerged that the Remain side had been bankrolled by Russia and had illegally accessed social media data for millions of voters in order to target them by sending them videos full of lies?

You reckon Johnson and Farage and Rees-Mogg would have said, "No, no. The People have spoken. It's is imperative in the interests of democracy that we respect The Will of The People"?

What do you think?

[bpoolrover]

No I agree they would not let it go but your average person wouldn't have,if you were to ask anyone's who voted leave on this message board most would say the same

[bpoolrover]

If they were to have a second vote and remain win so Be it while I think it would be unfair it is what it is, life is to short to worry what might be what could happen in ten years etc. Whatever the outcome in the end it will work out is has every other time

[BillyStubbsTears]

Life's too short to worry about what might happen in 10 years?

We think about the future all the time. That's what separates humans from animals. We plan long term. We use contraception or choose not to. We put money into mortgages and pensions. We study to give ourselves the chance of a better quality of life down the road. We give up smoking. Most of us choose not to inject drugs, or at least not to share needles if we do.

All of that is taking decisions because of what the consequences might be.

How is this any different?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Can everyone be happy? No they can't. Is there an answer? No.  The big reason really is the e.u will not let this be a success. It could well be very successful but they will never allow it.

[RedJ]

Because which ever result happens we will be fine anyway, it won't make you ill(unless you worry to much) there are many countries not in the eu that are ok and we would be to

f**king hell. So we won't all get life threatening illnesses overnight that means everything will be fine. Heard it all now. Don't worry, that's what'll make this a shit show!

You really do refuse to engage with any of the facts don't you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm going to keep on saying it.

The predictions from sensible economists are that we will lose something between £250-750bn by the mid 2020s directly because of Brexit.

The key Brexit supporting economist says that we will be on the upswing by then if we implement his policies. Which include the elimination of manufacturing and the "managed decline" of the Northern cities.

What in the name of holy hell makes you think it'll be alright?

And BFYP. Yeah you're right. It could all be fine if only the EU would let us leave all the responsibilities of the Single Market but keep all the benefits. Like the EU negotiator said, you're like the man who wants to go to the wife swapping party without taking his wife.

[Glyn_Wigley]

If they were to have a second vote and remain win so Be it while I think it would be unfair it is what it is, life is to short to worry what might be what could happen in ten years etc. Whatever the outcome in the end it will work out is has every other time

Isn't that what Neville Chamberlain said?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is magnificent.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-final-deal-referendum-question.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+MainlyMacro+(mainly+macro)&m=1

Relentless logic. There's no sensible argument against any of this.

[RedJ]

Ah but it's only £400 a year we're worse off. we'll be alright! lalalalala I am not listening.

[RedJ]

EVERY DEAL WILL LEAVE US WORSE OFF HOW ARE YOU NOT GRASPING THIS.

[Not Now Kato]

Had an interesting chat with a couple of dyed in the wool Brexiteers over the weekend.  After all that's gone on they still believe many, (if not all), of the lies they were told; and continue to perpetrate them themselves!
 
Ultimately, the topic got round to the issue of the Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border and their view on this was, to say the least, astounding. 'F**K em, who gives a S**T about them anyway'! followed by 'If the EU want a border then let them pay for it, they're the ones who want one, it's not down to us'!
 
Now one of the main tenets of the various leave campaigns was Taking Control of Our Borders and when I pointed out that there was a rather important requirement for us to be able to do so, that is for US to have something called a BORDER to TAKE CONTROL OF their response was 'well, just leave them to get on with it, they're doing that already without a border aren't they?'
 
I almost replied that 'in that case why do we need to have any border controls anywhere between us and the EU following Brexit at all?'  But I thought I'd only be wasting my time.
 
It simply amazes me that so many people are so fixated with leaving that they continue to ignore reality.  Unbelievable really.

[hoolahoop]

I deleted the post as there is no point going round in circles, your never going to change your opinion and I'm not mine

Quite right and incidentally I'm now in my 60s have voted in every election but have never voted for Labour - thank you for your wishes incidentally.

I am now more concerned to hear about her latest trip to Sweden, Finland, Estonia and Russia especially the last one in light of recent events.

However these young people want to experience all that Europe has to offer whilst the country seemingly  pulls away from the continent.

They are naturally Europeans and Europhiles......that's all they know  "Freedom of movement" is a precious thing and will be missed when it's gone - it's all I know too.