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Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations  (Read 307064 times)

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Dutch Uncle

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2550 on September 21, 2018, 08:34:29 pm by Dutch Uncle »
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh BST, Trump thinks it was the Canadians.  :rolleyes:



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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2551 on September 21, 2018, 09:04:47 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
He's doing a decent job of burning the White House's credibility himself.

Sprotyrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2552 on September 21, 2018, 10:17:44 pm by Sprotyrover »
Film just come out about Polish Airmen.
'Hurricane'
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:02:39 pm by Sprotyrover »

Sprotyrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2553 on September 21, 2018, 11:13:08 pm by Sprotyrover »
I was thinking about the Poles who gave their lives in the Battle of Britain. And given the fact that their airmen shot down something like 1 in 10 of all the Luftwaffe planes downed in that battle, and arguably tipped the balance, maybe the thanks should be going the other way.

And before trumpeting anything about our commitment to Polish freedom, you'd be advised to Google Churchill, Stalin and the blue tick.

And that's before you start shaking your head at the stupidity of framing 2018 policy in the light of what happened in WWII. It's farcical that folk are still bringing that up. If you're digging up old history, why should we expect to get a trade deal with the USA when we burned the White House in 1814?
Unlike you I am well read on the 'Talks' between Churchill and Stalin the information came from books not Wikipedia.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2554 on September 21, 2018, 11:57:28 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Sproty.

Ouch. How spiky.

For the record.

1) I wasn't aiming that comment at you.
2) I first came across the Blue Tick issue when reading Norman Davies's "Europe: A History" nearly a quarter of a century ago.

Have another go.

I heartily recommend that book by the way. Europe (Britain included) has had too many wars but it's not all been confrontation, despite what some folk would have you think. That book covers the wonderful and the horrific.

But anyway, given that you've widely read on the topic, I'm sure you'll agree that Axholme Lion was talking ba-baa.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:03:21 am by BillyStubbsTears »

Axholme Lion

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2555 on September 22, 2018, 09:04:40 am by Axholme Lion »
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.

And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.

Obviously the Soviet Union eventually 'saved' Poland, but had we not continued alone through the dark days of 1940 the war would have been over and Poland would have been consumed into Germania.
Yes, the Poles who died in the RAF were very brave men who I have great respect for, unlike their snidey politicians of today.

Sprotyrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2556 on September 22, 2018, 10:19:18 am by Sprotyrover »
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.

And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.

Obviously the Soviet Union eventually 'saved' Poland, but had we not continued alone through the dark days of 1940 the war would have been over and Poland would have been consumed into Germania.
Yes, the Poles who died in the RAF were very brave men who I have great respect for, unlike their snidey politicians of today.

Axholme The Soviets didn't save Poland they merely inflicted a slightly different oppressive regime on them.
On 17th September 1939 466,516 Soviet Army troops invaded Eastern Poland  including 3,739 Tanks and 380 Armoured Cars.
Poland had withdrawn large formations in the East to take on the Germans in the West whose offensive started on 1 September 1939.
The Soviets captured 99,000 Polish troops but also interred 452,536 Poles such as Government Officials,Teachers,clergy,Postal workers,Police Officers. Basically anybody who represented the old Polish Government, they were all shipped off to Siberia,where they disappeared. 8,0o Polish Officers alone were murdered at Karyn in 1940.
Some of the people we grew up with were the offspring of Poles who were released from Russian camps to make their way via Iran to join the allied cause. Well over 100,000 fought for the allies and died in droves in North Africa,Monte Casino and Arnhem.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 10:57:39 am by Sprotyrover »

Axholme Lion

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2557 on September 22, 2018, 10:59:12 am by Axholme Lion »
I know, that's why I wrote 'saved' to point out the irony of being pulled out of the Nazi frying pan and being dropped into the Soviet fire.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2558 on September 22, 2018, 10:59:53 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Axholme.

Have you seen what (some of) our politicians have been saying about Europe for 2 generations?

If folk are then going to get upset about a daft quip about cake, maybe it's the Brexits who are the real snowflakes after all.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 11:03:25 am by BillyStubbsTears »

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2559 on September 22, 2018, 11:18:11 am by Bentley Bullet »
BST, do you ever wish you lived in one of the EU countries that have genuine, incorrupt, politicians who seek wealth for the people and not themselves?

Axholme Lion

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2560 on September 22, 2018, 11:40:38 am by Axholme Lion »
Can't see why we joined in the first place. We are an island and never have been and never will be part of their clique. We have more in common with our commonwealth, they are our family.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2561 on September 22, 2018, 12:03:22 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Axholme.

Get down off your Little Englander chair for a minute and have a think.

1) We joined because for the previous 20 years, Germany, France, Italy, Holland and Belgium had all hugely out-performed us economically. Because they were bringing down barriers to trading together.

After joining, we had 40 years of outperforming all them until the f**king stupidity of Austerity followed by the Brexit vote dropped our performance below most of them.

No brainer really.

Your final sentence is illuminating though. I wonder how many Brexit supporters have that at the core of their belief. Doesn't matter how poorer we get as long as we don't have to associate with them foreign speaking folk.

bobjimwilly

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2562 on September 22, 2018, 12:19:52 pm by bobjimwilly »
I had an "interesting" discussion with an old work colleague last night. He's an intelligent bloke; a great graphic designer and is now teaching himself computer programming.

I dared to ask why he voted Brexit, and he gave me 2 examples that made his mind up; a Polish Lorry Driver his wife knows who dares to claim benefits and send the money he earns home to his family in Poland, and those "foreigners" that work at his local car wash that he knows are claiming benefits.

I asked him why shouldn't the Polish Lorry driver claim benefits if he lives and works here legally and pays his taxes like everybody else - no answer.
I asked him if he was sure the car washers were EU migrants and if they were claiming benefits, why shouldn't they claim like any other British person - he said because we can't go over and do the same in their country (he didn't specify what country they were from - I'm guessing they are non-EU migrants working for cash in hand and claiming f*ck all tbh)

I then suggested to him "claims" might "cost" the government a few million in total, whereas the cost to the economy of Brexit is likely to be billions, with businesses going under because of higher tariffs in most industries, and he said "doesn't bother me coz I'll still have my job".

He opened my eyes to what maybe most Brexit votes might actually be thinking. It's quite depressing, and a bit scary.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2563 on September 22, 2018, 12:26:51 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.

And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.

Obviously the Soviet Union eventually 'saved' Poland, but had we not continued alone through the dark days of 1940 the war would have been over and Poland would have been consumed into Germania.
Yes, the Poles who died in the RAF were very brave men who I have great respect for, unlike their snidey politicians of today.

Yeah, the Soviet Union crushing Germany was nothing at all to do with being invaded by Germany themselves and mobilising their massive army, it was all because Britain stood alone being battered at the other end of the continent.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2564 on September 22, 2018, 12:30:37 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Can't see why we joined in the first place. We are an island and never have been and never will be part of their clique. We have more in common with our commonwealth, they are our family.

Perhaps we should grant Freedom of Movement to all of our family.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2565 on September 22, 2018, 01:43:54 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BJW

The further we've got into Brexit, the clearer it's become that the economy.ic effects are going to be somewhere between bad and horrific.

But none of that seems enough to convince any Brexit supporter to change their minds.

Which makes you wonder...

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2566 on September 22, 2018, 02:01:59 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Looks like we're only a couple of steps from "Fight them on the beaches" talk here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45611738

Somebody ought to tell Hunt. The EU is not seeing us as having a weak hand because we're polite. They are seeing g us as having a weak hand because we've got a weak hand.

Hunt and May are effectively saying, "How DARE you be beastly to us and it give us what we want? If you don't compromise with us, we'll...err...stamp our feet a lot and then commit economic suicide."

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2567 on September 22, 2018, 02:14:28 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Politeness? Didn't he ever listen to what the person he succeeded as Foreign Secretary kept coming out with? :silly:

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2568 on September 22, 2018, 02:57:25 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
It's farcical isn't it.

Our right wing populists spend years abusing the EU and EU officials. In very nasty terms. Farage saying the EU president had the charisma of a wet dishcloth. Johnson comparing the EU to Nazi Germany. Rees-Mogg calling EU officials "delusional bullies".

Then when one response as with a really innocuous (and not very good) joke the Brexiters go all snowflake and whine about hurt feelings.

And then there's May's f**king omnishambles this week. The EU spends two years telling us that a deal that undermines the SM won't fly. She suggests the Chequers  deal which would undermine the SM.  They spend weeks  saying that the Chequers deal would undermine the SM. She then marches into Salzburg shouting that it's her Chequers deal or nothing. The EU point out that Chequers is not acceptable because it undermines the SM. And May's response is to go all Robo-Churchillian and say that it is totally unacceptable for the EU to reject our plan.

It's like being led by arsy 5 year olds with learning difficulties and easily bruised egos.

Donnywolf

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2569 on September 22, 2018, 06:39:26 pm by Donnywolf »
That stare she did will scare them shitless though - they will be negotiating with us now asap !

Strong and stable Government with scary stary Leader - whats not to like.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2570 on September 23, 2018, 09:23:59 am by BillyStubbsTears »

Filo

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2571 on September 23, 2018, 01:25:21 pm by Filo »

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2572 on September 23, 2018, 01:36:55 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308


That to me looks like preparations for a General Election

Possibly. To me it looks just like a way of the Labour leadership changing policy without Jeremy leaving any fingerprints and therefore losing face.

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2573 on September 23, 2018, 07:10:22 pm by RedJ »
BJW

The further we've got into Brexit, the clearer it's become that the economy.ic effects are going to be somewhere between bad and horrific.

But none of that seems enough to convince any Brexit supporter to change their minds.

Which makes you wonder...
what does it make you wonder?

Whether there's anybody at home despite the lights being on, perhaps...

i_ateallthepies

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2574 on September 23, 2018, 08:44:48 pm by i_ateallthepies »
"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.

When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2575 on September 24, 2018, 01:59:26 pm by bpoolrover »
"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.

When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2576 on September 24, 2018, 02:15:22 pm by RedJ »
"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.

When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we
You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that, then.

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2577 on September 24, 2018, 03:43:22 pm by RedJ »
"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.

When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we
You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that, then. Think what?


...the thing that you posted?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2578 on September 24, 2018, 03:53:02 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

Already (and this is a "fact" not a FACT) Government spending has been reduced running through to 2023, compared to what they were planning before the vote.

That is because we've ALREADY, lost huge amounts of economic wealth and we are projected to lose a lot more.

You know what that means?

Less money going into the NHS than would have done.

Less going into schools.

Less going into road building and rail & bus services.

Less going into house building.

Less going into higher education and research.

In other words, less going into all the things that are supposed to underpin our kids' and grandkids' futures.

Or, for those of you who don't seem to give a shit about any of that, less going into pensions.

It's HAPPENED.

ALREADY.

Every single sensible economic prediction says it's going to keep on happening for the next decade at least.

Oh aye. And no politician is now saying that immigration is going to decline by much either.

So what exactly HAVE you got out of the Brexit vote?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #2579 on September 24, 2018, 04:24:08 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

It's like talking to a wall.

The economic hit HAS ALREADY HAPPENED! And it's STILL happening. And that was based on businesses' reactions assuming we get a reasonably sensible Brexit.

As far as the future is concerned, there is NO-ONE remotely believable who is saying we're going to come out better off over the next decade. Even that t**t Rees-Mogg has said it might take 30 years to see the benefits.

And NO ONE is saying that we are going to see a big reduction in immigration.

What is it you are expecting to see when we DO leave? The clouds parting and a squadron of angels coming down to sort the shit out?


 

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