Brexit deal

[drfchound]

I remember "strong and stable government" - say it long enough and oops it still did not happen and shows no sign of coming soon

I remember " must deliver on the will of the British people" and "we will be leaving the EU on the 29th Match" and now the new "we have it within our grasp to leave with a deal on the 29th March"

I think a great anaolgy above comparing HER to a drunk lying in the gutter saying they dont have a drink problem. What IS wrong with that woman ?

.... and how can she be so thick skinned - still even now saying I will get legally binding changes to the backstop (because the EU always make last minute concessions).

I voted Remain and have never hidden that but I would (like Kevin Keegan) Love it - just love it if she does not eVer get us out of the EU and then justifiably looks the most stupid Politician ever

If that does not happen I will look the most stupid poster ever on here and this will be the stupidest Post made by the stupidest person !!!

I think you are far away from that accolade Wolfie.
Plenty are before you for that award.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

May is just a poor leader, she works hard but she cannot get a strategy and work with it, really poor leadership.

As for a 2nd ref proposal, it's been debated to death really, the key thing is what do you put on the ballot?  Should it be a direct choice, multiple choices?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This pretty much sums up how the rest of the world sees our self-indulgent emotional spasm.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1099798580813094913

Still. We took back control, eh?

[The Red Baron]

Interesting Labour move today though, may push the rebel Tories closer to backing May, may mean the so called peoples vote is getting closer.

Although Labour's position comes with caveats, it is the first solid hint that Corbyn will back a second referendum. I think it is quite helpful to May actually. She can now hold up the possibility of a second referendum and a long delay to Brexit at the ERG and the DUP. Maybe they will realise that May's Deal represents the hardest version of Brexit they are going to get.

[Donnywolf]

May is just a poor leader, she works hard but she cannot get a strategy and work with it, really poor leadership.

As for a 2nd ref proposal, it's been debated to death really, the key thing is what do you put on the ballot?  Should it be a direct choice, multiple choices?

As with the rest of the last 2 years mess I guess it would not be easy - but we would have to extend or revoke Article 50 I would suspect for a start then probably multiple choice :


a) leave with Mrs Mays agreement exactly as it is (its taken this far and at least it has some concrete proposals and could be "costed out" by experts

b) leave with No Deal *

c) Remain

* I think the b) option looks a little "tame" because it has no substance and could be worked on by MPs to produce a concensus from the various existing options - Norway, Norway +, Canada etc etc but the problem is that THEY may then take a further 2 years to get to that point

.... but as I have said many times I am no expert just someone probably like many on here and in the UK at large is sick to the back teeth front teeth and any other teeth of the whole bloody mess !

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Well labour have said b is not an option to be on it, if it is about being democratic (it's not) then put it on there.....

[The Red Baron]

We'll see what May actually says soon, but this looks like the compromise to stop ministers resigning.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1100370705366114310?p=v

It's obvious No Deal won't get a majority, so the ball is now in the court of the Tory (and Labour) Brexiteers. Do they now accept that May's Deal is the best Brexit they'll get?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Yes it's a sensible move for her really and a move to an end game, whether it becomes that is the question.

[The Red Baron]

Sums up the position rather nicely.

https://mobile.twitter.com/afneil/status/1100383784103366658?p=v

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

If only it were about Brexit for the ERG. But it's not. It's about the future of the Tory party.

[Copps is Magic]

Yes it's a sensible move for her really and a move to an end game, whether it becomes that is the question.

End game! In what sense?

Her game has failed, and we're slowly realising we have to start a new game (i.e. re-enter into negotiations with the EU on substantially different terms). This is the beginning, not the end.

[wing commander]

   I'm glad some of you don't negotiate on behalf of my business..No deal was a bargaining chip even if we were never going to use it..This constant howling about taking it off the table weakened this country's position because the EU negotiaters knew it couldn't go through...
   This May bashing is all well and good and very easy for you all,but it's your beloved Labour party's weak positioning for its own political gain,edgeing it's bets one way or another depending on how the wind blows that is just as much to blame...Not that the British public has bought it..

[Copps is Magic]

No deal is a contradiction in terms, its a red herring. How can you have 'no deals' with a continent we're so intimately entangled with in every aspect of our lives?! No one with a serious inclination of anything to with anything countenanced that as being possible, so to say its a bargaining chip is an insult really to the intelligence.

It was HER red lines that framed the failure of her negotiations, and now she's adding to that misstep by creating unnecessary uncertainty in the country (and in the EU for people like me) by extending this failure because she is dogmatically stuck to saving face. These things she did herself, and only her herself.

[The Red Baron]

TRB

If only it were about Brexit for the ERG. But it's not. It's about the future of the Tory party.

The Brexiteers who put questions to the PM just now showed they haven't moved. Neither has the DUP. So unless the Backstop is removed, which I agree the EU won't countenance, May's Deal won't pass.

I'm guessing No Deal will be defeated even more heavily, especially if the Government allows a free vote, so the question is what will happen if the A50 extension motion also goes down? There's hardly going to be time for a full renegotiation, is there?

[Copps is Magic]

You would think the extension vote would just be a formality in that circumstance. You're hardly going to get a majority voting against no deal, then a shift to vote down an extension. Even with our bat shit lot.

[The Red Baron]

You would think the extension vote would just be a formality in that circumstance. You're hardly going to get a majority voting against no deal, then a shift to vote down an extension. Even with our bat shit lot.

You would, but perhaps not with this dysfunctional HoC.

Of course an extension would only put back the cliff edge unless a new plan emerged.

The only thing I think that could break the log-jam is something which requires a huge leap of faith by the EU and the Irish Government. That's to put something like a 6-7 year time limits on the backstop and pray that we get a comprehensive free trade deal agreed between the UK and EU by then. I can fully understand though that the current shenanigans in Parliament would make them unwilling to make that leap.

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo.

No Deal was NEVER a bargaining chip because it was never remotely plausible.

You don't bargain by saying, give me what I want or I'll blow my head off and you'll maybe get a few bruises.

EVERYONE who looks at this in any detail knows that No Deal would be an unmitigated catastrophe for us. Yes it would hurt the EU too, but it was never plausible that we would actually go through with a plan that would knock getting on for 10% of GDP.

May even suggesting that No Deal was a serious plan is, frankly, insulting to all concerned. Finally, she's been forced to accept that and now maybe we can start dealing with this like f**king grown ups.

[wing commander]

   I'm in full agreement with you on the fact that no deal would be a absolute disaster..But it would be for the EU too..
   I'm just a little tired of seeing everybody hammer May as if she's the only part of the problem.Nobody seems to be questioning anybody else performance in this whole sorry episode..IMO Labour and everybody else have taken the position of whats best for there own party's and there personal preferences and not whats the best deal for the UK that is acceptable,and they are every bit as much to blame as she is...
   While she was working 20 hour days trying to renegotiate with the EU as instructed by Parliament,Corbyn is down the allotment turning his spuds..Very bloody rarely as he stood up and given clear and concise opinions on the way forward other than his red lines that the Eu wouldn't entertain which of course he knew in the first place...
   As far as I'm concerned whether I agreed with it or not,the people of this country in a set democratic process instructed this parliament to leave the EU..Another referendum again wouldn't be fought on the facts but the relicense that people are that fed up to back teeth of the pathetic squabblings of all mp's that they will just vote remain to have done with it..There is no party that has come out of the last 2 years with any credit whatsoever...

[Glyn_Wigley]

Aye, blame the Opposition for the Government's shambles. Anybody would think that Corbyn should have shoved May out of the way and demanded to get the job done himself.

[Not Now Kato]

   I'm glad some of you don't negotiate on behalf of my business..No deal was a bargaining chip even if we were never going to use it..This constant howling about taking it off the table weakened this country's position because the EU negotiaters knew it couldn't go through...
   This May bashing is all well and good and very easy for you all,but it's your beloved Labour party's weak positioning for its own political gain,edgeing it's bets one way or another depending on how the wind blows that is just as much to blame...Not that the British public has bought it..

As someone who has negotiated a number of very large contracts I'm rather glad I don't negotiate on behalf of your business if you take that view on how to conduct negotiations.
 
One of the first rules of negotiating is that you NEVER, EVER, introduce a bargaining chip, (threat), that you are not prepared to use.  Because if you are called out on that chip you are going to look pretty bloody stupid whichever call you then make!
 
Which is one of the reasons May is looking pretty bloody stupid right now.

[Not Now Kato]

And if there is to be another vote then leavers would be well advise to take a look at this
 
https://comparethebrexit.com/view-all/
 
Its even colour coded to make it easier for them to understand.

[i_ateallthepies]

   I'm in full agreement with you on the fact that no deal would be a absolute disaster..But it would be for the EU too..
   I'm just a little tired of seeing everybody hammer May as if she's the only part of the problem.Nobody seems to be questioning anybody else performance in this whole sorry episode..IMO Labour and everybody else have taken the position of whats best for there own party's and there personal preferences and not whats the best deal for the UK that is acceptable,and they are every bit as much to blame as she is...
   While she was working 20 hour days trying to renegotiate with the EU as instructed by Parliament,Corbyn is down the allotment turning his spuds..Very bloody rarely as he stood up and given clear and concise opinions on the way forward other than his red lines that the Eu wouldn't entertain which of course he knew in the first place...
   As far as I'm concerned whether I agreed with it or not,the people of this country in a set democratic process instructed this parliament to leave the EU..Another referendum again wouldn't be fought on the facts but the relicense that people are that fed up to back teeth of the pathetic squabblings of all mp's that they will just vote remain to have done with it..There is no party that has come out of the last 2 years with any credit whatsoever...

If that isn't the biggest pile of steaming crap I have ever seen written... Holy mother of Christ!!! What exactly has May been doing for the last two and a half years other than what (she thinks) is best for her party instead of what is best for the country???  Give me Strength!!!!!!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co.

Your post perfectly describes the problem.

The referendum in 2016 absolutely and categorically did NOT give Parliament a clear instruction. That's why we're in this shit storm now.

What it did was to say that the decision was "Leave" but Leave is not a thing. It's a vast spectrum of potential things. That's the whole point! It could be anything from staying in the SM and CU to a No Deal crash out, with literally dozens of possibilities in between. And in 2016 (and still now), NO-ONE knew what Leave the country had voted for. because it was never discussed.

You say we should have sympathy for May? No. SHE was the one who unilaterally decided that Leave should be interpreted as a very hard leave, leaving the CU and SM. There was no discussion about that. No attempt to build a cross-party consensus. No attempt even to build a consensus within her own party.

May has brought the calamity on her own head. She is an unmitigated disaster of a politician, listening to no-one, consulting with no-one and totally incapable of steering us through the mess that she didn't start, but did make infinitely worse. She has negotiated mendaciously, agreed issues with the EU then coming back to Parliament and stated the inverse. and when everything caved in in January, she then threw her lot in with the ERG and allowed them to tell her what to do, despite them representing a tiny fraction of the country.

She is a narrow-minded, tiny intellect when we needed a grand visionary. She can rot in Hell when she finally goes.

[Glyn_Wigley]

She can rot in Hell when she finally goes.

Good luck to Satan in getting her to agree to a date to go to Hell. And then getting her to stick to it.

[Filo]

I find it astonishing that someone not in power and not involved with the negotiations can be blamed while we all should feel sorry for the person in power and very much involved in the negotiations. The mind truely boggles

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's one example of why the 2016 vote didn't give a clear direction to Parliament.

In 2016, we were assured by (read "lied to") prominent Leavers that Ireland would not be an issue.

In fact, the reason that May's deal was rejected by dozens of Tory MPs is precisely because of a problem with the Irish border. It turns out that we either break the Good Friday agreement or we have a Brexit that is unpalatable to the Right of the Tory party.

That wasn't discussed at all in 2016, apart from by a handful of Remainers who were accused of being Project Fear mongers.

We know so much more now about what Brexit means. Why on earth not go back to the people and ask what they want in the light of this clarity.

[wing commander]

I find it astonishing that someone not in power and not involved with the negotiations can be blamed while we all should feel sorry for the person in power and very much involved in the negotiations. The mind truely boggles

Yes Filo it does...but everybody has had there part to play and they haven't done that..They haven't helped one bit...Labour have contributed zip,nothing...And that's why the nation doesn't trust them to govern..

[Colemans Left Hook]

Japan have just got a trade deal with Europe which allows them tariff free trade. Maybe if a deal with Europe was done or we were staying in it'd allow for greater manufacture for Honda but why would they keep manufacturing and exporting in a country that with our current uncertainty will probably end up paying tariffs to export to Europe?

 i heard one of these university experts talking about this HONDA closures at 3 am in the morning on the radio recently he said the japanese honda plant was working undercapacity and mentioned about the Turkish plant also closing

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/honda-will-close-uk-turkey-plants-restructuring-move

remember the bit about electric cars now

the expert did mention how polite The Japanese people were -meaning if you asked for directions to somewhere and they didn't know they would literally make it up !!! sending you to wrong direction ! just to be polite --- strange people -- he said not wanting to upset you   

he meant to say they would say what they said anyhow in the official statement

[Glyn_Wigley]

I find it astonishing that someone not in power and not involved with the negotiations can be blamed while we all should feel sorry for the person in power and very much involved in the negotiations. The mind truely boggles

Yes Filo it does...but everybody has had there part to play and they haven't done that..They haven't helped one bit...Labour have contributed zip,nothing...And that's why the nation doesn't trust them to govern..

You appear to have missed the alternative to May's ridiculous deal that Labour have been proposing for as long as I can remember.

[bpoolrover]

Glyn  do you think labours alternative will get through?