Parliament to be prorogued

[IDM]

Why.?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I was. Then you turned up.

[glosterred]

Is everybody happy today?

I’m happy thanks

[Axholme Lion]

I was. Then you turned up.

Ha ha 

[albie]

Rumour is that Tory MP Richard Harrington plans to stand down at next GE, and will vote against no deal.
Announcement this evening?

How many others are thinking about their position?

[wilts rover]

Rumour is that Tory MP Richard Harrington plans to stand down at next GE, and will vote against no deal.
Announcement this evening?

How many others are thinking about their position?

Well he has sent an announcement to his local paper so it must be true
https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/17869240.watford-mp-richard-harrington-announces-will-stand-next-election/

[wilts rover]

Shamelessly stolen from Mark Steel in the Independent:

Even so, Johnson shouldn’t get his way in the long run, because scrapping all regulations on greed, handing the country to super-rich crackpots and monocled oddities, while blaming everything that goes wrong on immigrants, is not actually the will of the people. There are far more people opposed to this than in support of it, including the overwhelming majority of the largest cities, of Scotland, and of people under the age of 50.

What they all need is a slogan, around which they can come together, to stop Johnson and his elite making their maniacal grab for power. Maybe we should try “take back control”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-suspended-queen-remain-opposition-a9084021.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

Looks like the coup is going well. They've gone straight to the Purge stage.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sajid-javid-media-adviser-dominic-cummings_uk_5d6821e3e4b06beb649b44bd?x1e&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvL1NuWkxLMzNoaE0&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGQbwcolbUykcc59htewOLOzJHUhIvYObKxiW2BV71-vJR9-RoyihnSWwN8HmIKRmaKFEcULuldReVFsfV-TnJKIeDS8kXt91kN94WZIYKD1V7FBwIizXdeCM7pKsrrf3sPIK-najkgrimL8tuOsL5MJZoRzJToVXKKcgHksJA13

[Donnywolf]

It is sickening to watch the excerpts of all those Tory MPs Gove Javid Rudd Hancock (watch him read his Autocue) etc slamming the possible suspension of Parliament and now being in Johnsons Cabinet that has done just that  B******g hypocrites the lot of them

Johnson himself saying this has nothing to to with leaving the EU and his puppet muppet Ress Mogg having the nerve to stand there on Breakfast yesterday just sneering at every question he was asked and answering it completely off at a tangent or sufficiently "grey" as to avid the whole point. He knows exactly what they are doing ffs - and expects simple folk like me will believe or be placated by the answers he gave

Oh wait though they are Politicians and of course they lie (or dont answer) for a living
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1167010726088773632

I dont think I have ever been so MAD (angry) in my entire long life. I can just imagine them sat in a room somewhere giggling like Kids and saying ho ho they didnot see that coming

PR now !

[SydneyRover]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

[Herbert Anchovy]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

[IDM]

There’s a big difference between honouring the result of the referendum and crashing out of the EU with no deal.

I wanted the uk to stay in the EU, still do, but accept that leaving is going to happen.  BUT this must be managed properly for the whole of the country and not just a small handful of folks who no deal suits..

[SydneyRover]

And there is a bigger dilemma honouring a corrupt vote process

[Donnywolf]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

I also (like a broken record) have said this before on here and elsewhere

The Referendum result was a non binding on the Government and they could have simply said - NO too devisive 52 48 ish to provide a conclusion and we should ignore it and maybe try again later. They chose to try and "get it over the line" and as yet have not managed it

People inclusing Gove Johnson May etc etc have said it would be undemocratic to NOT get that vote implemented

However (here is my broken record) in the 1975 Referendum 66% of those who voted as against 34 % who voted produced the result to REMAIN in The EU. Total votes numbered just about as many as in 2016 so it was the second largest vote in our Electoral history by a very small amount

So the majority for REMAIN was lets say 32% compared to 4 % in 2016 thats of course 8 times more than voted LEAVE in 2016

My point is - yes I agree a lot of time has passed since 1975 and a lot reading this were not even born. The world has changed beyond belief BUT ... what has enraged me is that everyone in 75 just got on with it. I got on with it even though I personally voted LEAVE. It was definitive - we were in the EU and staying in and everyone seemed happy

Except of course all those Tory MPs (mainly) who from 75 onwards tried to subvert the will of the people - and they kept going and going with no particular mandate and only their own bloody mindenedness spurring them on

Dont forget 5 years ago nobody really gave the EU a second thought - there were no riots against it - no setting fire to buildings etc - it was (like suppoting Rovers) it was just "there"

So the thing (laced with irony) is that that very group of people who never accepted the will of the people in 75 and worked against it from day one are the very same people (not literally in some cases) who are now crowing about "we cannot ignore the will of the British people"

I was going to say thay cant have it both ways but of course they are career politicians and they CAN and DO have it whichever way they want

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.

If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

There’s a big difference between honouring the result of the referendum and crashing out of the EU with no deal.

I wanted the uk to stay in the EU, still do, but accept that leaving is going to happen.  BUT this must be managed properly for the whole of the country and not just a small handful of folks who no deal suits..

This is it in a nutshell isn't it?

No deal is not the right option (though has to be used as a tactic in negotiation given nobody wants it).  But the comments above about it not being binding etc, smack of "I don't like it therefore I'll come up with anything I can to thwart it".  It's a brave person who turns round and writes off the majority of people who voted in that referendum.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.

If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?

Glyn

The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There seems to be some widespread misunderstanding about how or democracy actually works..

The whole point of our democracy is that power resides with the people, who elect MPs to make decisions.

Here's the key point. If you don't like the decisions your MP has made,you can vote against them at the next Election.

The Referendum had no constitutional power to over ride that process. The decision on when, if and how we leave the EU still resides with Parliament. If MPs take decisions on Brexit that you don't like, vote them out. That's how it works.

Now, here's why what Johnson has just done is so dangerous.

He's basically done everything he can to remove the ability of MPs to make their judgements on Brexit. He's calling I er the heads of MPs, directly to the electorate. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW OUR SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO WORK!

The ONLY constraint there is on a PM in our system is the ability of MP's to hold him/her to account. Johnson has just ridden a coach and horses through that set of checks and balances. If that is allowed to stand, it is the biggest challenge to our democratic system for 350 years.

This is WAY bigger than Brexit. It's about whether we are prepared to give uncontrolled power to one person. No system that does that is a functioning democracy.

[IDM]

How many circumstances do we encounter everyday where we are given a choice to confirm a decision already made.?

I’m talking about simple things like buying a cinema ticket online, or closing a Word document when asked if you want to save it.  More complex are things like applying for credit, getting out of a phone contract and leaving Sky.

The point is all these little things offer several levels of checking and the opportunity to think again.

Brexit is the biggest political and social decision the country has faced for decades.  And we got one shot.. one.. no “are you sure” choice once all the real details emerge, long after an original - and of course valid - vote was taken..

[BillyStubbsTears]

I see some gutless f**ks in the Tory party are now deleting tweets they made a few months ago saying it would be outrageous if Parliament was prorogued.


https://mobile.twitter.com/_mattgibbo/status/1167142789882273793

[bpoolrover]

Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?

[DonnyOsmond]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.

If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?

Glyn

The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?

54% of people voted for parties that vehemently ruled out no deal at the 2017 GE.

[DonnyOsmond]

Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?

If he did a good job he wouldn't have a no confidence vote?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

That's the entire point!

The PM is ONLY the PM because they can command the confidence of the House. Not because 100,000 retired Home Counties golf club bores voted him in.

If he can't command the confidence of the House, he is by definition NOT the PM.

What you are saying is that you can't blame him for suspending Parliament in those circumstances. Quite astonishing what people will justify.

As for a Lab or LD PM, there is no way they could command the confidence of the House generally. If such a PM did come about, they would have the confidence of the House SOLELY on halting Brexit temporarily (to avoid a No Deal that no one voted for) and then calling an Election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Good call Glyn.

Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.

[Ldr]

To be fair BST neither was there a mandate to oppose no deal. The only thing you can say for sure was there was a mandate to leave the EU

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently

Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.

The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.

If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?

Glyn

The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?

You brought up the Labour manifesto. Funny how you've decided to choose to ignore it (in the same way you accuse me of doing so!) and only talk about the Tories in your reply!

I don't want to reverse the result of any referendum. I want the British public to do that. Only it wouldn't be holding the same referendum again, the question asked would be different and based upon the actual terms of leaving. Isn't that how true democracy should work?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Good call Glyn.

Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.

I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

And now we get to the core of the problem with the 2016 Referendum question.

You say there was a mandate to Leave.

But "Leave" wasn't a thing. There were many different forms of "Leave" from Norway to No Deal.

And here's the point. There was never a mandate for any SPECIFIC form of Leave.

What has happened is that the different factions of the Right have spent the past three years fighting between themselves as to what the Leave "mandate" means.

Do you see the irony? The Leave voters passionately insist that we have to respect the Ref vote because the People decided.

But the People did NOT decide. They simply gave bullets for Tory/UKIP/BP politicians to fire in their fight about determining what Brexit means.

That is why I am in favour of a Ref2. But this time with an unambiguous SPECIFIC form of Brexit on the ballot paper. If you want the People to decide, it HAS to be on a specific, unambiguous question. Otherwise you get the clusterf**k that the Tories have given us for the past 3 years.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Point of fact. The Tories DIDN'T win the 2017 General Election. They lost a perfectly good majority.