Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[tyke1962]

Tyke

Which non-neoliberal country outside of the EU do you see as a model for the type of society you would like to see?

You say socialism doesn't work. Are you including Scandanavian Socialism in that?

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/

I think when I speak of socialism what I'm referring to is pure socialism as in the case of Venezuela Wilts .

I've absolutely no problem with a mixed economy what's so ever just as long as it's returning the profits made back to the taxpayer and spent by the government across the land where needed and isn't a drain on the economy and has to be propped up .

I was always far from convinced that simply privatising something was the only solution to creating efficiency and value to the customer , the railway industry is a classic example of this .

The Scandinavian countries are something I could hang my hat on but I'm always fairly sceptical about these things , what works in one part of the world is then bound to work in another , not necessarily because people are so culturally different .

The Norwegians were of course greatly helped by the oil revenue and it's profits put in to the wealth fund that supports a good welfare system and pensions .

Thatcher on the other hand used our oil revenue to prop the country up whilst she carried on decimating our industries .

I'll probably be long gone before things come to a head in this country although I hope not obviously .

I'm of the opinion that great change comes from the people and I'm afraid until that happens the two major parties will continue to pull the people's pants down to  attain power or keep themselves in power .

I'm more than convinced that the 2016 EU referendum wouldn't have happened if the powers that be had known in advance how that result would turn out so out of touch were they .

Not even Johnson , the ERG or Farage deep down thought they'd win and when they did they shyte themselves , Farage couldn't get away quick enough and he'd campaigned all his political life for it .

In fact the whole political system shyte themselves .

Ain't one of em had a clue where to go from there because the truth is they never thought they'd win as I say .

[wilts rover]

All very interesting but you are deviating from the point again.

You know what you don't want and don't like - but what is it you do want? What direction and policies should the Labour Party take?

As regards the Norwegian oil revenue - its Finland that often comes out top of surveys where people are the happiest in the world. I don't believe they have a great deal of oil?

[tyke1962]

All very interesting but you are deviating from the point again.

You know what you don't want and don't like - but what is it you do want? What direction and policies should the Labour Party take?

As regards the Norwegian oil revenue - its Finland that often comes out top of surveys where people are the happiest in the world. I don't believe they have a great deal of oil?

Deviating ?

Tha put Scandinavia in to the debate .

Anyway , lets drill down to what I want to see Labour do , I swear to god I've done this before maybe even on this thread !!!

ffs ditch the identity politics please .

Concentrate on what's important to people , it ain't BLM , trust me it isn't .

Clean the streets up and be tough on drug dealing and anti social behaviour , be proper tough , these lowlifes destroy communities .

Make work pay , other than disabilities benefits should never match or better a days work and I don't give a feck how many kids you have , you produced em .... you feed em ....not me or anybody else .

Purchase through councils or housing associations stocks of housing , the council with its maintenance programmes are the best landlords you can have .

Stop back door privatisation of the NHS , fund it fit for purpose at the levels Blair did , minus the back door privatisation .

I want to see the workplace improved for workers , times have changed so ill scrub the trade union angle , I want to see an accreditation given out that stands companies out from the rest on the basis of worker - management consultation on pay , health n safety , share ownership and pensions , similar to what you see with environmental standards or best practices , a bit of a big project I admit but necessary .

I want consumers or company to company trade to see that as a company do business with , a badge of honour , if you ain't got the accreditation it impacts on you .

Change the fecking culture in the workplace .

There's two types of contracts by law available to offer , full time or part time agreed at the point of appointment , there are no ZHC's anymore , they are unlawful , make it happen .

Can we not have a good look at the high street , is it really all over in the online era ,  , vinyl records have enjoyed a renaissance and books still stand strong , high streets are the heartbeat of communities along with pubs , its only all over if you don't fight back .

Strong communities with services , affordable housing ,  decent workplaces and healthcare attract and sustain Labour votes .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
BLM matters to many black people.

I entirely agree with much of your take. What I don't understand is why that necessarily precludes also dealing with systemic racism where it exists. Why can't left politics include improving the lot of post-Industrial working class towns AND people who currently have to live with systemic racism?

[tyke1962]

Tyke.
BLM matters to many black people.

I entirely agree with much of your take. What I don't understand is why that necessarily precludes also dealing with systemic racism where it exists. Why can't left politics include improving the lot of post-Industrial working class towns AND people who currently have to live with systemic racism?

Ok Billy ditch the identity politics is perhaps a bit strong and of course these things are important to build a better society and should be addressed robustly .

The problem is the Labour Party comes across as totally consumed by identity politics , that's the problem mate .

In an ideal world we wouldn't but having this exchange on this subject .

I'm comfortable in saying this but the UK isn't the US Billy and personally I find BLM   a bit of an import to tell the truth .

The progress I've seen in this country certainly since I was a younger man in the late 70's and 80's is monumental and nobody seems to acknowledge that in this country .

What we are getting now is this tweet , that comment on instagram or Facebook magnified as though nothing has ever changed .

The country's changed monumentally in the last 40 years in that respect .

That's my point .

We all get discriminated against in one form or another don't we ? , I've six fingers and shag my sister apparently and you live in a caravan and make your living tarmacing people's drives for instance .

Let's at least put this in some kind of order and not be consumed by it is where I'm at .

[DonnyOsmond]

Tyke

Which non-neoliberal country outside of the EU do you see as a model for the type of society you would like to see?

You say socialism doesn't work. Are you including Scandanavian Socialism in that?

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/

Social Democracy is the name.

[selby]

  I thought I'd bump this as poor old Stabber seems to be yesterdays man already.
  Where's his fans gone to?

[selby]

  Congratulations to Boris Johnson, his Charisma, Integrity and good looks have really overshadowed  Mr personality Stabber Starmer ans MR nobody knows me ED Davis in no time at all.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I thought the two policies he announced yesterday were good and what he said was pretty strong.

Again the problem Labour have though is I liked a lot of it.  Shouldn't be a problem you'd say but if I liked it you'd imagine the very left of the part wouldn't - and we saw that with momentum not being happy with it.  If he can surge past that very left wing part of the party, they have every chance of a win next time round.  But we all know it's a big ask for him to do it. 

No doubt politically they would have been expecting a real opportunity to criticise the vaccine programme, they set up for that but it's gone so well they don't have that option and I suspect many will move on from Covid very quickly once a lot of things are eased. I like the approach to think forwards not backwards.  I suspect I'll change my view when they start mooting higher taxes mind.

[Not Now Kato]

  Congratulations to Boris Johnson, his Charisma, Integrity and good looks have really overshadowed  Mr personality Stabber Starmer ans MR nobody knows me ED Davis in no time at all.

Conservative European Forum
THE TRADE AND COOPERATION AGREEMENT: THE JUSTICE AND SECURITY CHALLENGES AHEAD
By Lord Sandhurst QC February 2021

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/conservativegroupforeurope/pages/330/attachments/original/1613563135/The_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_-_The_Justice_and_Security_challenges_ahead_by_Lord_Guy_Sandhurst_QC.pdf
 

Losses

1. SIS II: centralised EU database of stolen identity documents and wanted people. The UK will lose all access to the EU's Schengen Information System II (SIS II), which is a database of alerts and instructions if a person of interest - under which anyone circulated as wanted or missing is automatically visible to 27 EU Member States. That covers the range of missing persons or someone involved in terrorism-related activities, or objects connected to terrorism - which are found as they enter or leave the UK. This will be damaging.

It will not be the same to send requests to Interpol. There are differences between how SIS II and Interpol operate, albeit the NCA believe that both sides will strive to have a system which is efficient. Potentially, EU states lose similarly in respect of UK information. There is a significant loss of access to data on a real time basis to all parties’ disadvantage. Reliability and completeness will depend on the efficiency of input by Member States.

2. VIS: loss of access to this centralised EU database storing fingerprints and digital photographs of applicants for Schengen visas.

There are no correlative benefits to balance against these losses of SIS II and VIS.

3. Eurodac: This is significant as the absence of information about those who seek asylum in the UK who have already become known to a third EU member state will be material in whether or not their claims in the UK will be regarded as "inadmissible" under the new asylum procedures instituted by the Home Office from the beginning of January 2021 (that any person who travelled to the UK through a safe country will have their asylum case declared inadmissible) which supplant the Dublin III procedures of which the UK is no longer a part since its departure from the EU.

Further, in the absence of bilateral return mechanism agreements with third countries it will be hard, if not impossible to return those whose claims are ruled as inadmissible.

4. Europol: loss of real time information searches and full participation and influence. These are losses with no benefits.

5. Data access conditions: in some cases, access to data might only be made available under stricter conditions than previously. It is to be hoped that a favourable decision on data adequacy is granted.

6. European Arrest Warrant: the UK is no longer a member of the European Arrest Warrant regime. Surrender (extradition) will in practice no longer be automatic.

a) EU Member States may refuse to extradite their own citizens, which is not the case under the EAW process. Germany, Austria and Slovenia have already indicated they will not extradite their own nationals37. In all, there will be serious obstacles to the extradition of nationals from potentially sixteen Member States. In respect of these, the best that will be achieved will be a trial of the wanted individual in that state where he or she is a citizen.

b) For non-terrorist offences, the ‘political’ exception makes a come-back. That has benefits but they are not all one way. At some time in the future, it is not difficult to see certain member states turning that against the UK.

c) The ‘double criminality’ requirement returns unless the relevant states have opted for it not to.

d) By reason of the above, the process will be more complex and uncertain.

Oh, and in 2019 the UK conducted a mere 603 million searches through SIS II. Of course, this will now no longer be possible.
 
Congratulations Boris!

[tyke1962]

  I thought I'd bump this as poor old Stabber seems to be yesterdays man already.
  Where's his fans gone to?

An empty taxi cab pulled up outside the  Labour Party HQ and Keir Starmer got out .


 

[drfchound]

  I thought I'd bump this as poor old Stabber seems to be yesterdays man already.
  Where's his fans gone to?

Do you mean Labour fanboys mate.

[MachoMadness]

He doesn't have fanboys because he's a bit crap. I say this as someone who voted for him, I've now left the party because of him.

[wesisback]

He doesn't have fanboys because he's a bit crap. I say this as someone who voted for him, I've now left the party because of him.

As have I, as well as removing my Union political levy and I'll withhold my vote in the upcoming local and Mayoral election.
Not for me.

[SydneyRover]

MM & WB who would your picks for leader be and how would they be better?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is a critical moment coming up as we start to look post-virus.

Sunak has said multiple times that he is shaping up for more Austerity. he is playing a very elegant political game in this week's Budget by arguing that we need to start balancing the books.

The issue for anyone, and especially anyone on the Left should be that balancing the books is NOT the priority at the moment. Growing the economy as fast as we can should be the priority for years to come. That requires the Govt to spend more than it brings in to keep the economy growing. Allow Sunak to win the argument that we should balance the books, and you have effectively given the Tories the green light to cut Govt spending, just as they have done for the past decade.

But Sunak is a VERY skillful politician and he's going to throw a hand grenade into Labour's ranks in the Budget. He is going to say that the first people to pay should be big business and we should increase Corporation Tax. The Corbynite Left like the sound of this and they want Labout to support it. But if Labour does, they have effectively agreed that we should prioritise balancing the books. So Starmer has said Labour will not support this. And, predictably, the Corbynistas have been out in force this week saying that proves Starmer is a Blairite, on the side of big business rather than the public. When in fact, what Starmer is doing is PRECISELY what the textbook economics that Corbyn and McDonnell were (correctly) advocating previously says we should do to get us out of the COVID slump.

The Left are blundering straight into Sunak's trap. Seeing what they want to see in Starmer instead of seeing the bigger picture. They have decided that Starmer is a sell-out and that blinds them to the facts when, like here, he is actually doing the correct thing.

[wesisback]

MM & WB who would your picks for leader be and how would they be better?

Thats not my problem, thats the Labour party's. However my recommendation to them is that when they realise Starmer isn't the answer that they find an actual unity candidate.
I've not always been a Labour voter nor would I wish to ever be that foolish to eternally tick a box regardless of what policies they stand on.

[MachoMadness]

There is a critical moment coming up as we start to look post-virus.

Sunak has said multiple times that he is shaping up for more Austerity. he is playing a very elegant political game in this week's Budget by arguing that we need to start balancing the books.

The issue for anyone, and especially anyone on the Left should be that balancing the books is NOT the priority at the moment. Growing the economy as fast as we can should be the priority for years to come. That requires the Govt to spend more than it brings in to keep the economy growing. Allow Sunak to win the argument that we should balance the books, and you have effectively given the Tories the green light to cut Govt spending, just as they have done for the past decade.

But Sunak is a VERY skillful politician and he's going to throw a hand grenade into Labour's ranks in the Budget. He is going to say that the first people to pay should be big business and we should increase Corporation Tax. The Corbynite Left like the sound of this and they want Labout to support it. But if Labour does, they have effectively agreed that we should prioritise balancing the books. So Starmer has said Labour will not support this. And, predictably, the Corbynistas have been out in force this week saying that proves Starmer is a Blairite, on the side of big business rather than the public. When in fact, what Starmer is doing is PRECISELY what the textbook economics that Corbyn and McDonnell were (correctly) advocating previously says we should do to get us out of the COVID slump.

The Left are blundering straight into Sunak's trap. Seeing what they want to see in Starmer instead of seeing the bigger picture. They have decided that Starmer is a sell-out and that blinds them to the facts when, like here, he is actually doing the correct thing.

It would be nice if someone in Labour were to actually make this argument to the public. Of the few times the shadow chancellor has appeared, she's echoed similar language to Sunak with regards to "responsibility". The argument that Starmer is simply too clever for the immature left isn't one I buy considering he's stumbling in the polls, especially with regard to BAME voters.

Sunak is going to implement austerity regardless. That much is clear. It's what Tories do. And he will have compliant media to help spin the message, too. To pin it on the left wanting higher corporation tax in this specific instance is a massive, MASSIVE reach.

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM.

I didn't pin it on the Left. I said the Left are stumbling exactly into his trap of using this as a stick to beat Starmer with.

Sunak's ideal position is freedom to implement Austerity and Labour at each other's throats. The Left are unwittingly playing ball on this, by putting their hatred of Starmer and obsession on intra-party politics above their understanding of economics and inter-party politics.

[River Don]

In keeping the housing bubble going and not raising the tax on fuel, Sunak is keeping some stimulus there BST. Its not all austerity.

[BillyStubbsTears]

In keeping the housing bubble going and not raising the tax on fuel, Sunak is keeping some stimulus there BST. Its not all austerity.

No, but he will be making the case that we will need to balance the books by "hard decisions". And we absolutely do not need to do that for a good while yet.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is a critical moment coming up as we start to look post-virus.

Sunak has said multiple times that he is shaping up for more Austerity. he is playing a very elegant political game in this week's Budget by arguing that we need to start balancing the books.

The issue for anyone, and especially anyone on the Left should be that balancing the books is NOT the priority at the moment. Growing the economy as fast as we can should be the priority for years to come. That requires the Govt to spend more than it brings in to keep the economy growing. Allow Sunak to win the argument that we should balance the books, and you have effectively given the Tories the green light to cut Govt spending, just as they have done for the past decade.

But Sunak is a VERY skillful politician and he's going to throw a hand grenade into Labour's ranks in the Budget. He is going to say that the first people to pay should be big business and we should increase Corporation Tax. The Corbynite Left like the sound of this and they want Labout to support it. But if Labour does, they have effectively agreed that we should prioritise balancing the books. So Starmer has said Labour will not support this. And, predictably, the Corbynistas have been out in force this week saying that proves Starmer is a Blairite, on the side of big business rather than the public. When in fact, what Starmer is doing is PRECISELY what the textbook economics that Corbyn and McDonnell were (correctly) advocating previously says we should do to get us out of the COVID slump.

The Left are blundering straight into Sunak's trap. Seeing what they want to see in Starmer instead of seeing the bigger picture. They have decided that Starmer is a sell-out and that blinds them to the facts when, like here, he is actually doing the correct thing.

It would be nice if someone in Labour were to actually make this argument to the public. Of the few times the shadow chancellor has appeared, she's echoed similar language to Sunak with regards to "responsibility". The argument that Starmer is simply too clever for the immature left isn't one I buy considering he's stumbling in the polls, especially with regard to BAME voters.

Sunak is going to implement austerity regardless. That much is clear. It's what Tories do. And he will have compliant media to help spin the message, too. To pin it on the left wanting higher corporation tax in this specific instance is a massive, MASSIVE reach.

MM.
By the way, the Labour front bench ARE making this case to the public. See here just today.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/budget-2021-labour-shadow-chancellor-anneliese-dodds-speech-114029166.html

Problem is, the Left has decided it doesn't want to listen to it.

[MachoMadness]

They're making these comments in livestreams that have 20-30 people watching, BST. Dodds had one last week that they didn't announce until 30 minutes after it started. It's a joke. I seem to remember you attacking Corbyn during the Brexit campaign for this exact thing, and this is far worse! I don't particularly buy their messaging in that article, either - it seems like a transparent attempt to talk about tax hikes on families to go along with their woolly "standing up for families" messaging that's been rolled out recently. Even though tax hikes on families isn't really something that's on the agenda. It's just vague and nakedly transparent at a time when people are crying out for an alternative. Just look at Dodds' personal polling. Their economic argument just isn't landing, and that's nothing to do with Corbynistas.

By the by, I fully accept Corbyn and McDonnell's economic arguments didn't land either. Their polling was dogshit by 2019 which proves that.

Starmer was elected under a year ago with a massive mandate, which surely included a decent chunk of the party's left. Myself included. If the left are discovering they don't want to listen to Starmer anymore, maybe he should stop standing in front of flags and start saying something worth listening to? At the minute, Starmer seems to have Swinson syndrome - the more people see of him, the less they like him. Is calling that out, the way you called Corbyn out many times, really just left wing infighting?

[drfchound]

 

There is a critical moment coming up as we start to look post-virus.

Sunak has said multiple times that he is shaping up for more Austerity. he is playing a very elegant political game in this week's Budget by arguing that we need to start balancing the books.

The issue for anyone, and especially anyone on the Left should be that balancing the books is NOT the priority at the moment. Growing the economy as fast as we can should be the priority for years to come. That requires the Govt to spend more than it brings in to keep the economy growing. Allow Sunak to win the argument that we should balance the books, and you have effectively given the Tories the green light to cut Govt spending, just as they have done for the past decade.

But Sunak is a VERY skillful politician and he's going to throw a hand grenade into Labour's ranks in the Budget. He is going to say that the first people to pay should be big business and we should increase Corporation Tax. The Corbynite Left like the sound of this and they want Labout to support it. But if Labour does, they have effectively agreed that we should prioritise balancing the books. So Starmer has said Labour will not support this. And, predictably, the Corbynistas have been out in force this week saying that proves Starmer is a Blairite, on the side of big business rather than the public. When in fact, what Starmer is doing is PRECISELY what the textbook economics that Corbyn and McDonnell were (correctly) advocating previously says we should do to get us out of the COVID slump.

The Left are blundering straight into Sunak's trap. Seeing what they want to see in Starmer instead of seeing the bigger picture. They have decided that Starmer is a sell-out and that blinds them to the facts when, like here, he is actually doing the correct thing.

I heard a news report this morning suggesting that Sunak would be increasing taxes, including Corporation Tax, for larger businesses.
As for Austerity, well I suppose it depends on what steps he will want to impose initially and from when.
Every journey has to start with one step.

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM
The issue is, as I said before, if you accept NOW that the books have to be balanced quickly, and you accept the Corporation Tax increase as the first step, you are opening the door for more Austerity later on.

As for communication, this isn't remotely like Corbyn and Brexit. Back then, he could have had a platform to shout out support for Remain, but he chose to debate Benn's attitude to the EU on an obscure American socialist group webchat 24 hours before the polls closed. The current circumstances are nothing like that. It is about putting markers down, this far out from a vote. Positioning. Having a stance you can refer to when the Election comes along in 45 months time.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's a clever political move though as you say.  Labour policy is to increase CT and thus it's nigh on impossible for them to object to something they've called for.

I'm not a big believer in CT rises myself, but there comes a time where that is required and it is now.  It shouldn't be forgotten that tax take on CT will decrease this year and next given the pandemic anyway as many less businesses will fall in to the bracket to pay it.  Still minimal signs of an online sales tax, disappointing if that is not forthcoming.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP. It's about timing. It is Economics101 that you don't even think about Govt balancing the books when the economy is on its knees. If Sunak puts up Corporation tax tomorrow, he either doesn't understand the economics, or he is choosing to prioritise playng politics.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP. It's about timing. It is Economics101 that you don't even think about Govt balancing the books when the economy is on its knees. If Sunak puts up Corporation tax tomorrow, he either doesn't understand the economics, or he is choosing to prioritise playng politics.

It's not about that though is it? It's a redistribution from those who've been hugely successful in a crisis. If you make no/minimal profit it's mostly irrelevant anyway.

[MachoMadness]

Worth pointing out that just 9% of the population oppose the idea of a windfall tax on large companies like Amazon. 70% support it. (source: Survation https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evd1ZZfWgAUv7KT?format=png&name=900x900 ) If Labour is making the argument that BST says they are, they aren't doing a very good job of it. Making companies pay their fair share is a separate issue from balancing the books in my view. If the grown ups are back in charge at Labour it shouldn't be particularly hard to delineate the two. You can support making the megarich pay their share in tax while still also making a strong case for a Keynesian economic platform, surely?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dealing with the Amazons and Googles avoiding tax is an entirely different issue. Sunak isn't going to address that by putting up CT.