Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[Glyn_Wigley]

Which is a perfect example of you not understanding the difference.

[Bentley Bullet]

Some might not like this .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

[Glyn_Wigley]

Some might not like this .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

You?

[Bentley Bullet]

Some might not like this .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

You?

I've always flown the flag for the UK, and England. Are you gonna start now?

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

What policies do you think Labour could have that would result in them being 20% ahead?

It's possible Billy it's simply a case of personality and death by association with his brexit policy under Corbyn rather than any policies cutting through

He's not likely to reinvent himself with the type of charisma Blair had and you can't change history on his second referendum stance under Corbyn's leadership .

Concerning that his past caught up with him yesterday on his 2017 comments about staying in the European Medicine Agency although respect for him that he later admitted he did say that when he initially denied it .

I maybe overreacting and he will prove to be electable but I have to say my gut feeling at the moment is telling me different .

Within weeks of Blair getting the gig I knew he'd tank Major at the 97 election and I had the feeling that Cameron would get the better of Labour when he was elected Tory leader .

Just something about them , Starmer hasn't got that and I feel Labour have to tick far more boxes than the Tories do to form a government , it's just the way it is .

I'm probably wrong to say Labour should have a 20 point lead right now and overreacting .

Maybe it's high time we gave a woman a go Billy , whilst Nandy isn't exactly untarnished by brexit but she wasn't the Shadow Brexit Secretary either , she's authentic , from the north and represents a vote leaving town in the former red wall .

A seat she held on to pretty comfortably , if you combined the tory and brexit party vote in Wigan central in 2019 she still wins , no mean feat given the circumstances .

There's broader appeal because she wasn't a full on leaver which should satisfy the metropolitan lot .

She seems naturally well placed through actual political experience to understand why we are so dived rather than someone who is forced to do so and appears to be out of his comfort zone in knowing how to go about it .

Just my personal thoughts , I could be right , I could be wrong .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Some might not like this .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

You?

I've always flown the flag for the UK, and England. Are you gonna start now?

Some might not like this .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

You?

I've always flown the flag for the UK, and England. Are you gonna start now?

I always have.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted.  He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach.  Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach.  There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.

[tyke1962]

I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted.  He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach.  Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach.  There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.

It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .

That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .

The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .

It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .

[Glyn_Wigley]

I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted.  He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach.  Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach.  There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.

It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .

That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .

The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .

It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .

Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?

[tyke1962]

I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted.  He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach.  Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach.  There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.

It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .

That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .

The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .

It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .

Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?

They may well do but it's not their decision , it takes  20% of Labour MP's to force a leadership challenge .

[Glyn_Wigley]

I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted.  He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach.  Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach.  There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.

It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .

That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .

The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .

It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .

Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?

They may well do but it's not their decision , it takes  20% of Labour MP's to force a leadership challenge .

I was talking about the last leadership election.

[scawsby steve]

The problem Starmer and the party have is the legacy they've inherited , Corbyn was seen as unpatriotic with his links to the IRA , Brown calling that women in Rochdale a bigot when the microphone was still turned on , Thornbury poking fun at white van man and his St Georges flag in Rochester on social media .

Starmer as a staunch remainer and architect of Labour's second referendum policy seems a bit fake suddenly putting the Union Jack around his shoulders .

Trying to out patriotic Johnson and the Tories by using the Union Jack seems a bit desperate to me and actually lacking real depth .

Then again it could be argued he can't win , by attempting to promote a more patriotic view he's getting pelters from the likes of Clive Lewis who seems to view the Union Jack in the same terms the swastika is seen .

The usual suspects on The Guardian topic message boards are all ready to cancel their memberships should this approach be adopted if they haven't already due to Starmer voting with the government's trade deal with the EU .

The divisions within the party seems to grow ever more wider by the week .

From having regained some optimism when he was elected after the 2019 election debacle I'm becoming ever more disillusioned by the current state of affairs .

If the party was up against one of the Tory heavyweights like Thatcher you could at least understand the difficulties but the fact remains he's facing off against a buffoon who's decisions have led to thousands upon thousands of unnecessary deaths and gives contracts out to people whose only credibility is to donate to the Tory Party or have connections to them .

The truth is the Labour Party should be 20 points ahead of the government in the polls but they aren't although to be fair he's at least pulled them level from the position he inherited so all may not be lost yet .

There's far more questions than answers right now with regards to Starmer and it's not beyond comprehension that a change before the next election maybe needed , it's still 3 years away after all .

As I've said before I'm willing to give him more time but I have to say he'd certainly be made aware of the need to be doing better if it was left to me .

Another brilliant post, Tyke. I too was impressed by Starmer when he first took over. He distanced himself from the mistakes he'd made in pushing for a second referendum, by telling everyone it was time to move on from the Brexit vote; something a few on here look incapable of doing.

His big problem, as I've said on here before, is the raging problems in the Labour Party between the liberalists and the left. I honestly don't know if he can ever sort that out.

I would love Andy Burnham to be given the chance at some point, but that's just my personal preference.

[wilts rover]

Any Labour leader will face the same issues.

And they will all have to come up with the same solution - set down the values and vision you want to implement if you run the country.

That's the main complaint against Starmer - what does he stand for, no-one knows.

I personally don't have a problem with that at the moment, in the middle of a global pandemic when most of the country wants to see politicians working together to sort it out, but he will have to it at some point.

Nature abhors a vacuum - so does politics.

[tyke1962]

The problem Starmer and the party have is the legacy they've inherited , Corbyn was seen as unpatriotic with his links to the IRA , Brown calling that women in Rochdale a bigot when the microphone was still turned on , Thornbury poking fun at white van man and his St Georges flag in Rochester on social media .

Starmer as a staunch remainer and architect of Labour's second referendum policy seems a bit fake suddenly putting the Union Jack around his shoulders .

Trying to out patriotic Johnson and the Tories by using the Union Jack seems a bit desperate to me and actually lacking real depth .

Then again it could be argued he can't win , by attempting to promote a more patriotic view he's getting pelters from the likes of Clive Lewis who seems to view the Union Jack in the same terms the swastika is seen .

The usual suspects on The Guardian topic message boards are all ready to cancel their memberships should this approach be adopted if they haven't already due to Starmer voting with the government's trade deal with the EU .

The divisions within the party seems to grow ever more wider by the week .

From having regained some optimism when he was elected after the 2019 election debacle I'm becoming ever more disillusioned by the current state of affairs .

If the party was up against one of the Tory heavyweights like Thatcher you could at least understand the difficulties but the fact remains he's facing off against a buffoon who's decisions have led to thousands upon thousands of unnecessary deaths and gives contracts out to people whose only credibility is to donate to the Tory Party or have connections to them .

The truth is the Labour Party should be 20 points ahead of the government in the polls but they aren't although to be fair he's at least pulled them level from the position he inherited so all may not be lost yet .

There's far more questions than answers right now with regards to Starmer and it's not beyond comprehension that a change before the next election maybe needed , it's still 3 years away after all .

As I've said before I'm willing to give him more time but I have to say he'd certainly be made aware of the need to be doing better if it was left to me .

Another brilliant post, Tyke. I too was impressed by Starmer when he first took over. He distanced himself from the mistakes he'd made in pushing for a second referendum, by telling everyone it was time to move on from the Brexit vote; something a few on here look incapable of doing.

His big problem, as I've said on here before, is the raging problems in the Labour Party between the liberalists and the left. I honestly don't know if he can ever sort that out.

I would love Andy Burnham to be given the chance at some point, but that's just my personal preference.

The party's had problems before even Starmer and Corbyn's time coming up with a vision and fresh ideas or at least in the sense that sits right with enough voters to form a government .

It's got to the point where it's defined by what it is rather than what its for .

As tragic as the pandemic has been and most certainly not something I'd have wanted it does offer opportunity as WW2 did to Atlee .

I can see the buffoon riding a wave in the summer on the back of his vaccination success which naturally I wouldn't deny him , warm days , pubs open and all this behind us whilst Labour are continuing to knife one another in the back .

Starmer may well go on the attack at that point , the death toll , the cuts to the NHS , the small businesses that have been lost , the unemployment figures , the low paid key workers who carried on throughout , the list is endless .

All that falls in to insignificance if he can't also convince the electorate that they could have done better and what's more they are the party to put the country back together .

That requires a vision , be the party of the smaller businesses , be the party of the low paid key worker , make the NHS the service it should be , be tough on crime , find a solution to creating affordable housing and so forth but more importantly be brave .

Tell the electorate how much of their tax has found there way in to the hands of tory donors on the back of the pandemic , how much was wasted on track , trace and isolate and make that mud stick on these fecking charlatans , win the argument you'll spend taxpayers money and return it to them the electorate in services , job creation and infrastructure , things that benefit us all not the 1% .

There's so much to go with here , that's patriotism not the fecking union jack hung behind you when making speeches .

Biden buried Trump over his handling of covid and I'd suggest it's a route map that will bear fruit but you have to be cut from that cloth and be brave to succeed in the UK .

[SydneyRover]

Really Tyke, tell us what is brave about johnson's crew and those that voted for him?

[tyke1962]

Really Tyke, tell us what is brave about johnson's crew and those that voted for him?

Sydney with all due respect I think you need to read my post again .

There's not a hint of advocating that Johnson is brave or his minions .

[SydneyRover]

Tyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.

[SydneyRover]

Labour and the left of of centre need to throw ideas and money into controlling the narrative otherwise it will be wash rinse and repeat. It doesn't matter how distorted truth is if it's drip fed into the brains of enough people it appears they are happy enough to vote for just about anything.
The massive frauds commited by vested interests will continue unless people feel there is value in making smarter decisions. Look at the bame vote in the US and how that has turned around the fortunes of the democrats, Biden may have used the appalling response to covid over there to his advantage but if all the hard work at ground level had not been done to ensure that more people were able and wanted to vote it would not have happened, this work has been going on well before covid was a thing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It is truly frightening to think that, were it not for COVID, Trump and the Republicans would almost certainly still be in power. Scary in that a President would be able to do what he did to protect himself from the Mueller inquiry (have close contacts take the fall for him, like a Mafia Don would) and still be protected by the party because they are shit scared of having his radicalised base turn on them.

[tyke1962]

Tyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.

Little Britain and a workers utopia ...... wow !!! .

I'm far from the socialist you have me down for Sydney .

History tells us socialism doesn't work so let's clear that up straight away , every economy needs capital and wealthy people .

My basic politics are this , that wealth created by using capital are distributed far more robustly than we see today , what we have today is capital creating more capital for the benefit of those with capital which then buys political influence and creates a system that's difficult to oppose .

I'm not a socialist , I'm anti neoliberal .

The less neoliberal groups that exist the more of a fighting chance you have .

I've always seen the EU as a neoliberal group who serve the interests of capital under the guise of globalisation .

Globalisation in my experience is simply the neoliberal  vehicle that seeks to drive down labour costs , the more cheap labour you create the less likely that labour cost will rise so that more and more profits can be funneled to boardrooms and shareholders and the more capital you create the more influence you can buy through lobbying , donations etc to keep the system working for you and you alone .

Which isn't to say migration should ever be ended , not  at all , the skill shortages we need but areas such as south yorkshire needed an abundance of cheap eastern european labour in an already economically challenged area like it needed an hole in the head .

Now I understand the economics show that migration has economic value but that's not felt in areas like this , if it did they'd have voted to remain wouldn't they ?

Blair's government estimated 30k would come over from eastern europe in 2004 , it was actually nearer 3 million .

That's a big change to have to accept both culturally , job seeking , housing and schools in depressed areas in such a short space of time hence my agreement in the thread that globalisation was going at a pace people found hard to accept .

The Japanese and Australian governments aren't seen as little Japanese or little Aussies with their immigration controls and in all honesty I'm at a loss as to why the little Britain card is waved at people such as myself .

I'm also at a loss as to why such views are considered bigoted by the liberal left .

There's a reason you don't find many liberals in poor economic areas and its more a professional and metropolitan class thing and that's because they have probably had a benefit from it , have jobs that can land opportunities in europe through freedom of movement , have kids in nice schools , have private healthcare and live in nice areas , it's not envy by any means good luck to em I'm just painting the picture as I see it .

It's also not particularly helpful that the party who were historically supposed to represent them decided it's political interests were best served by becoming the party of the professional and metropolitan class first and foremost and south yorkshire had to lump it .

So Sydney if my world view doesn't reconcile with yours there's a good reason and absolutely nothing to do with little Britain or a workers utopia .

Your welcome .

[drfchound]

Blimey tyke.
That response is a bit like some of the essay responses I have had on here.........
But without the graphs.

[SydneyRover]

Tyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.

Little Britain and a workers utopia ...... wow !!! .

I'm far from the socialist you have me down for Sydney .

History tells us socialism doesn't work so let's clear that up straight away , every economy needs capital and wealthy people .

My basic politics are this , that wealth created by using capital are distributed far more robustly than we see today , what we have today is capital creating more capital for the benefit of those with capital which then buys political influence and creates a system that's difficult to oppose .

I'm not a socialist , I'm anti neoliberal .

The less neoliberal groups that exist the more of a fighting chance you have .

I've always seen the EU as a neoliberal group who serve the interests of capital under the guise of globalisation .

Globalisation in my experience is simply the neoliberal  vehicle that seeks to drive down labour costs , the more cheap labour you create the less likely that labour cost will rise so that more and more profits can be funneled to boardrooms and shareholders and the more capital you create the more influence you can buy through lobbying , donations etc to keep the system working for you and you alone .

Which isn't to say migration should ever be ended , not  at all , the skill shortages we need but areas such as south yorkshire needed an abundance of cheap eastern european labour in an already economically challenged area like it needed an hole in the head .

Now I understand the economics show that migration has economic value but that's not felt in areas like this , if it did they'd have voted to remain wouldn't they ?

Blair's government estimated 30k would come over from eastern europe in 2004 , it was actually nearer 3 million .

That's a big change to have to accept both culturally , job seeking , housing and schools in depressed areas in such a short space of time hence my agreement in the thread that globalisation was going at a pace people found hard to accept .

The Japanese and Australian governments aren't seen as little Japanese or little Aussies with their immigration controls and in all honesty I'm at a loss as to why the little Britain card is waved at people such as myself .

I'm also at a loss as to why such views are considered bigoted by the liberal left .

There's a reason you don't find many liberals in poor economic areas and its more a professional and metropolitan class thing and that's because they have probably had a benefit from it , have jobs that can land opportunities in europe through freedom of movement , have kids in nice schools , have private healthcare and live in nice areas , it's not envy by any means good luck to em I'm just painting the picture as I see it .

It's also not particularly helpful that the party who were historically supposed to represent them decided it's political interests were best served by becoming the party of the professional and metropolitan class first and foremost and south yorkshire had to lump it .

So Sydney if my world view doesn't reconcile with yours there's a good reason and absolutely nothing to do with little Britain or a workers utopia .

Your welcome .

I don't believe I mentioned socialism Tyke, maybe you are feeling a bit over sensitive, I mean the little britain as in a shrunken position in world affairs and a smaller gdp inevitable when one opts out of the richest market in the world or make it tougher to access. When you can explain advantages of that maybe you'll be along the way to convincing me you have the answers. Voting to allow tories to hold the reins will never be an answer to anything but misery for the working classes and the working poor and I feel that only those that can sit back and enjoy the hard won riches of previous generations such as a home and a generous pensions can afford such largesse.

Maybe you'd have been better off trying to make changes you wanted from within because from without I don;t believe that you can.

apologies for the delay I was shunted down the queue for the laptop.

[selby]

  Sanitise it before you pass it on again Syd

[tyke1962]

Tyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.

Little Britain and a workers utopia ...... wow !!! .

I'm far from the socialist you have me down for Sydney .

History tells us socialism doesn't work so let's clear that up straight away , every economy needs capital and wealthy people .

My basic politics are this , that wealth created by using capital are distributed far more robustly than we see today , what we have today is capital creating more capital for the benefit of those with capital which then buys political influence and creates a system that's difficult to oppose .

I'm not a socialist , I'm anti neoliberal .

The less neoliberal groups that exist the more of a fighting chance you have .

I've always seen the EU as a neoliberal group who serve the interests of capital under the guise of globalisation .

Globalisation in my experience is simply the neoliberal  vehicle that seeks to drive down labour costs , the more cheap labour you create the less likely that labour cost will rise so that more and more profits can be funneled to boardrooms and shareholders and the more capital you create the more influence you can buy through lobbying , donations etc to keep the system working for you and you alone .

Which isn't to say migration should ever be ended , not  at all , the skill shortages we need but areas such as south yorkshire needed an abundance of cheap eastern european labour in an already economically challenged area like it needed an hole in the head .

Now I understand the economics show that migration has economic value but that's not felt in areas like this , if it did they'd have voted to remain wouldn't they ?

Blair's government estimated 30k would come over from eastern europe in 2004 , it was actually nearer 3 million .

That's a big change to have to accept both culturally , job seeking , housing and schools in depressed areas in such a short space of time hence my agreement in the thread that globalisation was going at a pace people found hard to accept .

The Japanese and Australian governments aren't seen as little Japanese or little Aussies with their immigration controls and in all honesty I'm at a loss as to why the little Britain card is waved at people such as myself .

I'm also at a loss as to why such views are considered bigoted by the liberal left .

There's a reason you don't find many liberals in poor economic areas and its more a professional and metropolitan class thing and that's because they have probably had a benefit from it , have jobs that can land opportunities in europe through freedom of movement , have kids in nice schools , have private healthcare and live in nice areas , it's not envy by any means good luck to em I'm just painting the picture as I see it .

It's also not particularly helpful that the party who were historically supposed to represent them decided it's political interests were best served by becoming the party of the professional and metropolitan class first and foremost and south yorkshire had to lump it .

So Sydney if my world view doesn't reconcile with yours there's a good reason and absolutely nothing to do with little Britain or a workers utopia .

Your welcome .

I don't believe I mentioned socialism Tyke, maybe you are feeling a bit over sensitive, I mean the little britain as in a shrunken position in world affairs and a smaller gdp inevitable when one opts out of the richest market in the world or make it tougher to access. When you can explain advantages of that maybe you'll be along the way to convincing me you have the answers. Voting to allow tories to hold the reins will never be an answer to anything but misery for the working classes and the working poor and I feel that only those that can sit back and enjoy the hard won riches of previous generations such as a home and a generous pensions can afford such largesse.

Maybe you'd have been better off trying to make changes you wanted from within because from without I don;t believe that you can.

apologies for the delay I was shunted down the queue for the laptop.

@ Sydney .

Voting leave in the EU referendum wasn't a supporting the Tories exercise , the question of the EU was always a cross party argument , there are a good number of casualties in the Tory ranks on this issue .

I've said before on this board my leave vote was ready to be cast anytime in the 80's and intensified under Major in the early 90's all that was missing was a referendum to act on that which finally arrived in 2016 .

One of the things Remainers seem to overlook when they play the single market card is to fail to acknowledge the freedom of movement that's built in to it , free movement of people is an entirely different thing altogether to free movement of capital , goods and services .

Free movement of people comes with pressures on the jobs market , housing , schools and healthcare , to place it in the same terms as capital , services and goods is simply ridiculous .

The net result is that when freedom of movement starts to shape communities who are economically challenged already then they look to see where the benefit to themselves is , In most cases there isn't a benefit .

Of course this directly challenges those who do receive the benefit , generally the ones who have had a better education that's enabled them to secure higher paid jobs , jobs that aren't necessarily challenged by the abundance of cheap labour , they maybe business owners too who can take advantage of a low cost Labour market .

The truth is freedom of movement is successful only to a percentage of the population to say there is an overall benefit is entirely wrong .

So I understand the remain argument but it seems the leave argument is often not understood by the remain voter and especially by those who aren't quite as economically challenged .

The point about remaining in the EU and reforming from the inside seems particularly flawed to me , Cameron came back from Brussels with a hand full of nothing even though the EU knew it would trigger a UK referendum , how high do the stakes have to be before reform is on the table ? , there can't be more higher stakes than that and yet ......... ?

The EU doesn't want to reform , it's happy the way it is it seems to me .

How long it holds together without reform is probably the question Sydney .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

The failure to respond to freedom of movement with investment in the required infrastructure and services is not a failing of the EU though. It is a failing of national Govt.

I've given my two pennorth on this many times. The root cause of the justified anger in the communities that you highlight is not the immigration. It is the lack of investment. Austerity is to blame.

If we had properly managed the exit from the Great Recession from 2010 onwards, we'd have had rising wages and rising investment in schools, hospitals, housing etc. Instead, we went into the economically illiterate mess of Austerity which reduced the investment and killed off the recovery, leading to the longest spell of falling real wages since the Napoleonic Wars. That was nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. But immigration is an easy thing to blame when people are struggling. Farage is enough of an opportunist to grab that chance to shape the political agenda. And then, Cameron was shitting himself that UKIP would take enough votes off the Tories to lose him the 2015 Election. So Cameron had to spike the threat of Farage. And for that reason and that reason alone, Cameron agreed to a referendum in the 2015 manifesto.

Ironic thing is that the man who had the power to prevent Austerity was Clegg. He had the chance to insist that Austerity was dropped when he negotiated with the Tories in 2010. Instead, he chucked out the very economic policies he'd campaigned on, and went all-in on Austerity. A shallow, out of his depth failure of a politician. Now working as the public face of Facebook, defending it against accusations of it fomenting genocidal hatred. Special circle of hell reserved for that t**t.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

The failure to respond to freedom of movement with investment in the required infrastructure and services is not a failing of the EU though. It is a failing of national Govt.

I've given my two pennorth on this many times. The root cause of the justified anger in the communities that you highlight is not the immigration. It is the lack of investment. Austerity is to blame.

If we had properly managed the exit from the Great Recession from 2010 onwards, we'd have had rising wages and rising investment in schools, hospitals, housing etc. Instead, we went into the economically illiterate mess of Austerity which reduced the investment and killed off the recovery, leading to the longest spell of falling real wages since the Napoleonic Wars. That was nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. But immigration is an easy thing to blame when people are struggling. Farage is enough of an opportunist to grab that chance to shape the political agenda. And then, Cameron was shitting himself that UKIP would take enough votes off the Tories to lose him the 2015 Election. So Cameron had to spike the threat of Farage. And for that reason and that reason alone, Cameron agreed to a referendum in the 2015 manifesto.

Ironic thing is that the man who had the power to prevent Austerity was Clegg. He had the chance to insist that Austerity was dropped when he negotiated with the Tories in 2010. Instead, he chucked out the very economic policies he'd campaigned on, and went all-in on Austerity. A shallow, out of his depth failure of a politician. Now working as the public face of Facebook, defending it against accusations of it fomenting genocidal hatred. Special circle of hell reserved for that t**t.

I'd partly agree with that Billy but not entirely .

We had a good number of years prior to the 2008 crash when the amount of cheap European labour was flooding in to the country .

More came than Blair thought , his projections were out by 2 million and 970 thousand .

South Yorkshire was still struggling in my opinion even though Labour had been in power for 7 years , there was no economic benefit before the 2008 financial crash or when the coalition came to power in 2010 to South Yorkshire .

Just a load of cheap money available to borrow which is an entirely different thing to economic prosperity altogether and one that came home to roost in 2008 / 09 / 10 .

Saw it with my own eyes , nobody on lower wages in South Yorkshire has had a benefit due to freedom of movement , absolutely nobody .

[selby]

 Making public at the start of the pandemic that it was an opportunity to degrade and get at the government,didn't sit well with me and I think a lot of others, but they ran with it nobody more than BST.
 Unfortunately unlike BST whose criticism was consistent, the labour front bench showed how shallow they were and constantly came over as what they are opportunists and vindictive and with an ulterior motive other than solving the problems of the pandemic which became all inclusive to life  in the country, the same attitude they showed over Brexit, just using it to gain power.
   Gradually they have, and the leader have faded, and are now a side show again.

[wilts rover]

Tyke

Which non-neoliberal country outside of the EU do you see as a model for the type of society you would like to see?

You say socialism doesn't work. Are you including Scandanavian Socialism in that?

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/

[wilts rover]

Making public at the start of the pandemic that it was an opportunity to degrade and get at the government,didn't sit well with me and I think a lot of others, but they ran with it nobody more than BST.
 Unfortunately unlike BST whose criticism was consistent, the labour front bench showed how shallow they were and constantly came over as what they are opportunists and vindictive and with an ulterior motive other than solving the problems of the pandemic which became all inclusive to life  in the country, the same attitude they showed over Brexit, just using it to gain power.
   Gradually they have, and the leader have faded, and are now a side show again.

Do you have examples of this please selby?

One of the main complaints of the Labour front bench is that they did not criticise the government enough at the start of the pandemic.

[wilts rover]

Fascinating poll just out

If there were an election tomorrow, of people who voted LD in 2019, more would vote Labour than LD again. How many seats would that swing?

https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1357727043161645056