Local Elections And Hartlepool

[Herbert Anchovy]

BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb

I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only

And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!

Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.

Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...

But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.

Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute  the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?

You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-

1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off

Which one do you think the Tories will do?

[drfchound]

BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb

I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only

And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!

Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.

Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...

But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.

Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute  the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?

You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-

1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off

Which one do you think the Tories will do?

HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.

[SydneyRover]

How would you pay off the debt hound?

[Herbert Anchovy]

BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb

I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only

And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!

Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.

Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...

But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.

Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute  the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?

You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-

1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off

Which one do you think the Tories will do?

HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.

Maybe so Hound, but based on history I’d bet my bottom dollar that one of those 2 options will be used.

[Metalmicky]

BBC reporting that Labour's Hartlepool defeat worse than party polling...

Party insiders tell me Labour's defeat in Hartlepool was even worse than their own private polling predicted.

This pointed to the Conservatives winning a 5,000 vote majority, whereas in the end it was nearly 7,000.

[DonnyOsmond]

One of those options will be used and it doesn't matter the opinion of people on here. We should be doing the alternative though, we need to spend to create more businesses and people in jobs, that'll in turn mean more coming into the government to pay off the debt. We don't need to enforce austerity again, theres never a need for it.

[Ldr]

Labour politicians and to an extend some activists and members are finding out that implying the electorate are thick xenophobic racists may not be the best way to get their votes

[drfchound]

BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb

I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only

And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!

Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.

Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...

But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.

Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute  the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?

You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-

1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off

Which one do you think the Tories will do?

HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.

Maybe so Hound, but based on history I’d bet my bottom dollar that one of those 2 options will be used.

Possibly so HA.
Hindsight will tell us I guess.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Labour politicians and to an extend some activists and members are finding out that implying the electorate are thick xenophobic racists may not be the best way to get their votes

But based on that logic, the working class would never vote Tory! The Tories have abused the working class for 40 years! Remember the miners strike, Tebbitt telling the unemployed to get on their bikes, heavy industries closed with no replacement work? It’s absolutely inaccurate for anyone to believe that the Tories are friends of the working classes.

[turnbull for england]

Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of

Always knew Filo was a closet Tory, he will be delighted.

The labour councillors won in my area, reduced majority but deserved.  Party politics in government shouldn't force good local councillors out.

[scawsby steve]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

[selby]

  How can they sort it Steve, for five years they have been telling us the same thing, even the different people they have put in front of us have come up with the same clap trap, publically said people don't know what they are doing, putting forward the clap trap that is put forward by the woke agenda, telling people that the way they live their lives is not right, and basically most of the population especially the older end are uneducated racist bigots.
   Now the in words are we have to listen and change, change what? the way they think or the words that come out of their mouths just to try and get support, but mean very little.
  They are finished buddy, its even more down hill from here just like in Scotland.

[tyke1962]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

They've managed to somehow be totally shyte scared of the very voters they seek to attract or attract back .

So the only option available is to say nowt and do nothing .

Corbyn as a leaver didn't want to pyss off the remainers and Starmer doesn't want to pyss of the leavers .

That's pretty much where the political divides of today are , they aren't left , right or centre anymore .

Where you placed your vote in 2016 is the battleground today .

This is how the Tories have cut through in the former Red Wall and thrown the old arguments out of the window .

[Herbert Anchovy]

  How can they sort it Steve, for five years they have been telling us the same thing, even the different people they have put in front of us have come up with the same clap trap, publically said people don't know what they are doing, putting forward the clap trap that is put forward by the woke agenda, telling people that the way they live their lives is not right, and basically most of the population especially the older end are uneducated racist bigots.
   Now the in words are we have to listen and change, change what? the way they think or the words that come out of their mouths just to try and get support, but mean very little.
  They are finished buddy, its even more down hill from here just like in Scotland.

Selby, the Tories have been treating the working class like that for decades though! The Tories have done nothing for the working classes, so using that logic they’d not vote for them now!

[Filo]

Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of

Always knew Filo was a closet Tory, he will be delighted.

The labour councillors won in my area, reduced majority but deserved.  Party politics in government shouldn't force good local councillors out.

embarrassed more like, but with a turnout of 27% hardly surprising, Lee Pitcher the labour candidate that never got in knocked on my door last week, he was like a nodding dog when I ripped into him about the state of the Labour Party

[wilts rover]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

But again this doesn't make any sense.

The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!

Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!

But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.

Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...

[Ldr]

Wilts, people like you are part of the problem. Unable to acknowledge the issues that prevent the middle ground voting for Labour and all you can do is reference the Tories or call people (I can't remember whether was selby or hound) a fascist

[Ldr]

More criticism of the Labour party has come in from one of its own MPs - and he doesn't hold back.

Khalid Mahmood - who was until a few weeks ago a shadow defence minister - says: "A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party.

"They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.

"The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world.

"A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn’t going to fix that.

"We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689

[scawsby steve]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

But again this doesn't make any sense.

The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!

Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!

But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.

Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...

Wilts, everything I've tried to convey in my post is exactly the same as what you're saying. The whole thing is a paradox; working class people in the North-East voting for a party that's always represented the rich elite in the South.

So you ask yourself, why? For me there are 2 answers. Firstly, left wing socialists such as yourself, and ex-Trade Unionists such as Tyke and myself, have been cast aside to make way for young liberalists and centrists with their political correctness and woke ideas.

Secondly, almost all of the North and North-East were utterly and totally insulted by one of the most outrageous anti-democratic decisions I've seen in my lifetime, the insistence that people had voted the wrong way, and therefore would have to vote again. Those wounds have just never been healed, and I doubt ever will be.

[tyke1962]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

But again this doesn't make any sense.

The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!

Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!

But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.

Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...

The electorate of Hartlepool are entitled to be represented politically by whoever they choose under a democratic process .

They've chosen a Tory .

That's who they feel best represents them culturally .

My last sentence is possibly key as to why Labour lost so heavily .

[MachoMadness]

I mean that's just shameless playing to the gallery from that labour mp. The minute anyone uses the word "woke" these days you can basically guarantee they're talking absolute shite. Mr Mahmood has one eye on his own seat, you feel.

Labour's issues go back to when Blair was in power. The current leadership's strategy to fix that seems to just be to call the last bloke a racist and offer tepid slogans about jobs and flags.

I mean, look at the process for Hartlepool. Party HQ selected a candidate from a shortlist of 1. The candidate had just been voted out of a nearby constituency, was an arch remainer and had a questionable track record with the Saudis. He's possibly the worst candidate they could have chosen for a highly contested election. That has nothing to do with being "woke". It's just stupidity. And arrogance.

[drfchound]

Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.

[Bentley Bullet]

The decision to select a Remainer for Hartlepool was probably with the (wrong) reasoning that the majority of Leavers had changed their minds and now wanted to remain.

[albie]

Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.

Hound,

The local Labour Party should choose, from a shortlist they have selected following due process.
Anyone who thinks the London HQ should parachute a candidate in, like they did before with the dreadful Mandelson, has not understood the importance of local democracy.

[drfchound]

Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.

Hound,

The local Labour Party should choose, from a shortlist they have selected following due process.
Anyone who thinks the London HQ should parachute a candidate in, like they did before with the dreadful Mandelson, has not understood the importance of local democracy.

Cheers albie, I didn’t know who was responsible, that is all.

[tyke1962]

I mean that's just shameless playing to the gallery from that labour mp. The minute anyone uses the word "woke" these days you can basically guarantee they're talking absolute shite. Mr Mahmood has one eye on his own seat, you feel.

Labour's issues go back to when Blair was in power. The current leadership's strategy to fix that seems to just be to call the last bloke a racist and offer tepid slogans about jobs and flags.

I mean, look at the process for Hartlepool. Party HQ selected a candidate from a shortlist of 1. The candidate had just been voted out of a nearby constituency, was an arch remainer and had a questionable track record with the Saudis. He's possibly the worst candidate they could have chosen for a highly contested election. That has nothing to do with being "woke". It's just stupidity. And arrogance.

The one thing that's always struck me with these so called culture wars , although the majority of people in this country don't actually even know what a culture war is , I'll get to the point .

Class politics ????

The thing nobody wants to talk about , acknowledge or even admit exists .

Just my experience of many years but the ethnic divides were always distinguished within  trade union membership .

That was the one thing that bound people together and cut through cultural , religious or you name it divisions .

Why is it when I mention Trade Unions I automatically think a significant number of people are going to point the finger and say dinosaur ? .

The truth is migrants and the lower paid Brit all had the same issues , exploitation , pay , housing and what have you .

With the key fundamentals , we are all the same .

It's something in my opinion that historically cut through the divides .

If someone has a better option I'd be happy to hear it .

[Herbert Anchovy]

What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

But again this doesn't make any sense.

The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!

Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!

But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.

Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...

The electorate of Hartlepool are entitled to be represented politically by whoever they choose under a democratic process .

They've chosen a Tory .

That's who they feel best represents them culturally .

My last sentence is possibly key as to why Labour lost so heavily .

Tyke,

I posted this morning about a ‘vox pop’ I’d heard on the radio with a voter. She’d said that she’d voted Tory for the first time after years of voting Labour as she thought “It was time for a change”. The interviewer then reminded her that she’d voted for the party that’d been in power for 10 years. There followed a silence as this sank in that was palpable. This is what Labour need to deal with. People in Hartlepool believe that all their problems are down to the opposition party rather than those in power. Remarkable stuff.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Apparently Hartlepool is the 10th most deprived area in England after 10 years of a Tory government. I am genuinely baffled about what the people of Hartlepool feel that the government does for them! Could a Labour Government really do worse for towns like Hartlepool when you’re still classed as a deprived area after 10 years under the Tories? Surely they’d have realised by now that nothing is going to get better? Or maybe I’m completely missing something else?

[tyke1962]

Apparently Hartlepool is the 10th most deprived area in England after 10 years of a Tory government. I am genuinely baffled about what the people of Hartlepool feel that the government does for them! Could a Labour Government really do worse for towns like Hartlepool when you’re still classed as a deprived area after 10 years under the Tories? Surely they’d have realised by now that nothing is going to get better? Or maybe I’m completely missing something else?

Economically the path that Starmer was undertaking wasn't historically going to deliver much prosperity either and culturally he was massively wide of the mark .

At least culture connects .

This is the thing , culture supersedes economics in the former industrial heartlands .

When you've nowt no matter who is in power then culture is massively important .

Food for thought .