Local Elections And Hartlepool

[scawsby steve]

Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger...

https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/

Love that article MM. It reads like it's been written by an AI with learning difficulties.
"Shadow cupboard" for "shadow cabinet".

West Mids mayor "Andy Avenue" (It's Andy Street.)

"Social gathering" for "party".

But yes I agree that Starmer has major problems. What I'm less sure about is what he can do about it.

Back in November, Starmer was consistently warning that the plans to open up for Xmas were dangerous.

He was consistently warning that going back to the Tier system in December was dangerous.

He was bang on right on both issues, and Johnson's policy decisions on those issues have led directly to an additional 30,000 avoidable deaths.

If people still support Johnson, and lazily repeat the "Captain Hindsight" jibe in those circumstances, I'm struggling to think what else can be done. Maybe we deserve Johnson?

Totally agree with you about the writing of that article. Absolute gobbledegook.

The writer must have been on crack.

[selby]

  My dislike of Stabber started when he was interviewed on Waterloo Station on his way to undermine the UK Government meeting with the EU leaders undermining a democratic vote to leave the EU, and has grown since.
  If we had gone back to hanging people like him with his mates then for treason then it would have saved any dislike building up, and a lot would be a lot quieter about it now,

[Filo]

You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute

My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .

If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .

I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .

Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .

My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .

The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .

It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .

If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity

If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .

I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .

If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .

You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness

[River Don]

You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute

My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .

If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .

I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .

Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .

My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .

The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .

It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .

If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity

If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .

I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .

If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .

You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness

This really highlights a frustration with the FPTP system of voting and I think this is a growing frustration. Even with those on the right, who do fall in line and vote tory.

Perhaps Starmer ought to make a firm commitment to implement proportional representation?

That might bring enough people to vote Labour again simply to change things in the future.

[bpoolrover]

You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute

My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .

If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .

I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .

Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .

My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .

The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .

It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .

If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity

If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .

I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .

If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .

You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness

This really highlights a frustration with the FPTP system of voting and I think this is a growing frustration. Even with those on the right, who do fall in line and vote tory.

Perhaps Starmer ought to make a firm commitment to implement proportional representation?

That might bring enough people to vote Labour again simply to change things in the future.

did they not have a referendum on this 10 years ago? It feels like let’s have a referendum but if we don’t get the result we want let’s have another

[Filo]

The referendum was for Alternative Vote

[bpoolrover]

The referendum was for Alternative Vote

yes I no but if they had a new vote and fptp won again then people will demand a vote for something else next

[DonnyOsmond]

Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories  - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats

It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.

[tyke1962]

You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute

My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .

If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .

I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .

Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .

My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .

The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .

It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .

If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity

If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .

I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .

If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .

You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness

It's very difficult to vote Labour or even support it and that includes financially if you despise the people within it .

Things have finally come to a head when my trade union was lambasted by the party for instructing a poll to be carried out by a credible company in Hartlepool .

It was accused of aiding the Tory Party and treachery , clearly because the findings in the poll showed the Labour Party in a very poor position .

Absolutely how dare you criticise how my Trade Union spends it's own money , who do you people think you are ? .

You've had millions of pounds out of the political fund in the past and generally wasted the majority of it .

You won't be getting anymore until you start representing our members far more effectively than you've shown in the past and clearly by the Hartlepool findings nowts changed .

That's the reason my union asked for the poll to be done , we are no longer prepared to throw money at a party that does nothing with it .

It's the final straw for me and the union will represent it's members and fight the tory government and it's corporate tentacles outside of the Labour Party and not through it .

So if you believe that I'm too aiding a Tory government then I'd kindly suggest you factor in what I've just typed .

[bpoolrover]

Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories  - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats

It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.

it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
You are precisely the problem I wrote about last week.

"If I can't have it exactly as I want it, I'm not playing. And if that means a Tory Govt forever, tough."

I truly do not understand you. Preferring all of nothing over a fraction of something.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

[Filo]

You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute

My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .

If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .

I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .

Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .

My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .

The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .

It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .

If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity

If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .

I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .

If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .

You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness

It's very difficult to vote Labour or even support it and that includes financially if you despise the people within it .

Things have finally come to a head when my trade union was lambasted by the party for instructing a poll to be carried out by a credible company in Hartlepool .

It was accused of aiding the Tory Party and treachery , clearly because the findings in the poll showed the Labour Party in a very poor position .

Absolutely how dare you criticise how my Trade Union spends it's own money , who do you people think you are ? .

You've had millions of pounds out of the political fund in the past and generally wasted the majority of it .

You won't be getting anymore until you start representing our members far more effectively than you've shown in the past and clearly by the Hartlepool findings nowts changed .

That's the reason my union asked for the poll to be done , we are no longer prepared to throw money at a party that does nothing with it .

It's the final straw for me and the union will represent it's members and fight the tory government and it's corporate tentacles outside of the Labour Party and not through it .

So if you believe that I'm too aiding a Tory government then I'd kindly suggest you factor in what I've just typed .

You are aiding the Tory vote by splitting the opposition vote, why are you blind to that?

Do you not despise the Tories more?

[bpoolrover]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?

[Filo]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?

The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives

[Filo]

Tyke

I take it your Union is UNITE, they should take a leaf out of their name, have you questioned Mcklusky’s cronyism over that £98m Hotel cintract?

[DonnyOsmond]

Boundaries should be a cross-party issue. Not done exclusively by one party.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.
You are precisely the problem I wrote about last week.

"If I can't have it exactly as I want it, I'm not playing. And if that means a Tory Govt forever, tough."

I truly do not understand you. Preferring all of nothing over a fraction of something.

I've already provided a solution to PROBLEMS like myself for the Labour Party Billy .

Go chase the votes Labour are more likely to get and let's cut the cr@p shall we , plenty of votes in Scotland and the city's on a pro EU ticket and identity politics .

I'm way past backing this two legged horse and I'm done with it after the events this week .

The only people who contribute to Tory governments are the Labour Party themselves and they have a GE and Referendum record to factually prove it .

The truth is Starmer and his minions don't really want to listen to the likes of me they just simply want my vote and union money which is apparent from your posts and that of Filo's .

Well it's over so go be what you really are and stop fecking about .

Sturgeon's on her ass in Scotland and they are pro EU up there , what you waiting for ? .

[tyke1962]

Tyke

I take it your Union is UNITE, they should take a leaf out of their name, have you questioned Mcklusky’s cronyism over that £98m Hotel cintract?

I'm in the CWU Filo .

[River Don]

Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories  - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats

It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.

it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it

That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.

No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
With respect, you're acting like a petulant kid.

What do YOU want a party to stand for if it is going to get your vote?

[drfchound]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

BST, In the last firstly years when Labour have won, have they ever had more that 50% of the vote.
Just curious.
I just googled it and it says that even in the landslide victory of 1997 they only got 43.2% of the vote.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.

[bpoolrover]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?

The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives

Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories  - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats

It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.

it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it

That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.

No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.

if the brexit party had got quite a few mps as the might well of if the voting was different there was every chance they could have formed a coalition with the tories if needed for me that would be a disaster, the other scenario is you need more than 2 parties to form a government and I just don’t think that would work

[drfchound]

No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.

Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.

[DonnyOsmond]

Bpool.

Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.

I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?

The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives

Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories  - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats

It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.

it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it

That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.

No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.

if the brexit party had got quite a few mps as the might well of if the voting was different there was every chance they could have formed a coalition with the tories if needed for me that would be a disaster, the other scenario is you need more than 2 parties to form a government and I just don’t think that would work

And under PR they'd have 13 MPs, which having nothing to show for their votes is a bit odd.

Are you thinking we only want it because we don't want the Tories in? We want it because it's fairer.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.

Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.

That wasn't what I was talking about Hound.

The issue is that for decades, a majority of voters have voted for a myriad of left or centre left parties (Lab, SNP, PC, Green, SDP, LD*) but because the right/centre-right vote has traditionally been solidly behind one party (Con) we have traditionally had a right wing Govt despite a (usually large) majority voting for left of centre parties.

I posted the figures here a couple of years back. I'll see if I can dig them out.

(*) It's undeniable that the LDs have positioned themselves left of centre on both economics and social issues through most of that period. Leaders like Ashdown, Kennedy, Campbell and Clegg actively appealed to Labour voters who didn't like Blair's authoritarian streak, or Kinnock's fireyness. That fact that their polling support collapsed from 25% to 7% within 3-4 months of going into coalition with the Tories shows that their support was certainly not from the right of centre.)

[SydneyRover]

What is for sure there is no room for protest votes until a labor government is elected under the fptp otherwise all you get for your labours is a hand clap.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What is for sure there is no room for protest votes until a labor government is elected under the fptp otherwise all you get for your labours is a hand clap.

If about 100,000 people had realised that and voted for Labour instead of indulging their principles in 2010, the past decade would have been very different. But unfortunately, I fear we are going through a slow motion replay of the same mistake on the Left. Too many people determined to have it their way or no way and totally missing the big picture.

[wesisback]

No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.

Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.

That wasn't what I was talking about Hound.

The issue is that for decades, a majority of voters have voted for a myriad of left or centre left parties (Lab, SNP, PC, Green, SDP, LD*) but because the right/centre-right vote has traditionally been solidly behind one party (Con) we have traditionally had a right wing Govt despite a (usually large) majority voting for left of centre parties.

I posted the figures here a couple of years back. I'll see if I can dig them out.

(*) It's undeniable that the LDs have positioned themselves left of centre on both economics and social issues through most of that period. Leaders like Ashdown, Kennedy, Campbell and Clegg actively appealed to Labour voters who didn't like Blair's authoritarian streak, or Kinnock's fireyness. That fact that their polling support collapsed from 25% to 7% within 3-4 months of going into coalition with the Tories shows that their support was certainly not from the right of centre.)

There have of course been other right wing parties though.
Surely then the issue we should be addressing is why Labour have failed to find enough common ground to unite those people?
I voted for Starmer as the unity candidate against what was potentially my better judgement and since then he has failed to show anything that suggests he has wanted to offer unity to the left.
Come May the 6th I won't be voting Labour for Mayor in first or second place or as my local councillors, nor will I be gaslighted into believing that I'm voting for the Tories as a result.
Both you and I know that Starmer is in for a battering in Hartlepool and in the locals and its time the party took some accountability at how they've managed to not just bring back the Red Wall but lose those they had previously managed to engage over the last decade as well.