Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.

It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168

I agree that would be a good plan, though it doesn't appear that Russia is letting up in its defence there, and is in some places advancing, though it makes more sense for them to let Ukraine forces to come onto them making themselves vulnerable.

Ukraine not taking a lot of ground? In their only advance in the Kherson region, Ukraine currently has a lot of troops and armour over the river in a bridgehead just south of Bila Krynytsia. With reports of Russia having taken out the three pontoon bridges they used, those troops may be able to make it back but the armour is currently trapped there, getting heavily shelled from three sides. It is possible that ukraine will try to put more troops in that area, though they are very vulnerable there so it would be a lot of their lives lost even if successful.

The overall picture will unfold, and maybe Ukraine can push on. One clue that this may be unlikely is the Ukraine reports of Russian reinforcement from its 3rd Army Corps, that have been based in Russia, to the area between Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk. This is an area will relatively little recent activity, so if the Russians felt there was a vulnerability around Kherson that's where they would go. Obviously they would still be able to move to Kherson if needed there, but that's not what the Ukraines are saying.

[Bristol Red Rover]

.....The single biggest aim of the EU at its birth, was to provide a strong alternative to nationalism, in order to prevent these disasters. For all its many faults, the EU has been superbly effective in this.

I fear that nationalism is on the rise again, embraced by people too young to remember what it led to in the past.

I agree that the EU has so far been very successful in this though it is partly responsible for the Ukraine situation. I know you choose to ignore that side of affairs, but it is a fact. It could have helped create a situation of balance in Ukraine which is a "front line" nation. Note both it's name and history.

It could have been a place where links between the EU and Russia flourished.

[Bristol Red Rover]

First of all fear of....
Next more fear....

Fear based on previous experience is not irrational

There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
 

The world is in a different situation, not least NATO being in the mix. It is irrational fear spread to support a failed mess created by the EU, NATO, NATO countries, and with Russia itching for the chance of the gift it was given through all of this.

It's whipped up fear engendered to give money to the elite. This is exactly what is happening, oh yeah, and loads of ordinary people, including those in uniform, dying too. Plus hatred and nationalism being fed all around. Mental.

[SydneyRover]

''Australian motorists 'indirectly' fueling Russia's Ukraine invasion, CREA advocacy group claims''

''The Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA), a Finland-based advocacy group, says nations such as Australia and the US are – in spite of bans – continuing to receive Russian oil via refineries on the subcontinent.

Indian imports of Russian crude oil have soared since Moscow launched its invasion of Ukraine in February and CREA said many of those barrels were re-exported as refined products to countries including Australia''

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/australian-motorists-indirectly-fuelling-russias-ukraine-war/101407358

It seems obvious now it has been pointed out, if confirmed then hopefully public pressure will come to the fore.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Are you saying people will drive less to save Ukraine?

[Panda]

Well i won't. I'm actually getting quite sick of being made guilty to feel sorry for British people in this incessant quest to brainwash us into thinking that we don't matter and only other people in other countries matter.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Do you think we are suffering and sacrificing on a scale remotely close to 1% of what the people in Ukraine are going through?

[Panda]

Do you think we are suffering and sacrificing on a scale remotely close to 1% of what the people in Ukraine are going through?

Some of the people in Ukraine you mean?

Suffering is happening all around the world in various guises but because it doesn't affect us then we aren't interested in that. We only seem interested in something that could potentially cause us problems. Like as depicted on the 'wrong flag' cartoon by Bob Moran who got it bang on.

There is suffering in this country daily. To make comparisons is to accept the suffering of people in Britain as acceptable suffering but the suffering of people in Ukraine as unacceptable suffering. When both are unacceptable.

Except we aren't allowed to say that we are suffering because only others in other countries are suffering apparently.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

[Panda]

Bob Morans cartoons are 100% reflective of what is going on in society and the world in general. Just my opinion. They make perfect sense, unlike much of what we've been told from lefties, scientists, politicians etc in the last few years.

He just draws the other side to what we are fed. If the MSM covered both sides of all debates and acknowledged for example that for X amount of people who get a Covid jab, there will naturally be some who die from it even though rare, then some of us wouldn't feel the need to find someone who has an alternative view that is allowed to be aired.

Like Ukraine. We are fed the line that Zelensky is a hero when he's a former tv star who is lording it up, renting his private villa out whilst his wife has expensive dresses and appears in celebrity magazines.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.

[Panda]

Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.

Complete nonsense.

At the start of Covid i hadn't heard of talkradio or GB news. I watched BBC and Skynews and listened to 5 live. As Covid progressed i became increasingly exasperated as to why these MSM weren't thinking like me and why the MSM journos weren't asking the questions i wanted asking of the scientists and government. When the Labour party started coming out with wanting MORE lockdowns and restrictions instead of LESS, which would have been the opposite view and my view at that time, before i'd been exposed to any of talkradio and gb news, then i knew then that i was being manipulated and nobody seemed to not only represent my views but also to stick up for them.

Then i saw a trickling of people who did have my views on MSM and they were used by MSM simply to be held up as some nutjobs or cranks.

Then i found talkradio and GB News

[Axholme Lion]

Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.

Whereas you would never wish to direct anyone and tell them the 'right' thing to think.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

[Axholme Lion]

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.

Whereas you would never wish to direct anyone and tell them the 'right' thing to think.

Every opinion I ever give is backed up with evidence. You're free to agree with it or explain why you don't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?

And once again your bile blinds you to what I'm actually saying.

We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.

Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.

Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?

What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.

Work through the consequences.

[Panda]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.

[Axholme Lion]

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?

And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.

We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.

Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.

Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?

What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.

Work through the consequences.

We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.

[Panda]

If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.

You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.

Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?

[Axholme Lion]

If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.

But he won't. This wouldn't have happened if the clown Zelensky had wanted to join NATO and threatened Russian security.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?

And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.

We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.

Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.

Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?

What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.

Work through the consequences.

We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.

How do we buy their gas? Pop over to Moscow with half a dozen butane canisters?

[BillyStubbsTears]

If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.

Please just stop and take a breath. Then reflect on whether you really mean what you are saying.

Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.

We are being asked to pay more for our energy.

I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.

So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?

And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.

We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.

Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.

Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?

What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.

Work through the consequences.

We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.

How do we buy their gas? Pop over to Moscow with half a dozen butane canisters?

And assuming we COULD magically transport billions of therms of gas from Russia to the UK (we can't) what would happen the next time Putin did something that we felts was against our strategic interests? We'd have to suck it up, or he'd cut off the gas.

What you inadvertently propose is that we become a vassal state under Russian control.

I say "inadvertently"...

[Panda]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.

You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.

Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?

No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!

There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.

You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.

Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?

No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!

There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.

Why do you say we knew COVID was mild after the first lockdown?

COVID killed 75,000 people in the winter of 2020/21. Even WITH a (late) lockdown. How many do you think would have died without action being taken? How do you think the NHS would have coped without action?

[Panda]

Which was the main reasons for the ongoing restrictions. Because our NHS is shit and can't cope with anything, let alone a pandemic. NHS bosses agitated for restrictions because they knew they were failing at their jobs but it was easier to stop people from living their lives than do their jobs properly and ensure we have a 'world beating' health service.

Restrictions and locking down after the first had nothing to do with the virus.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the time the second full lockdown came in, daily COVID deaths were doubling every fortnight. They peaked 10 days after the start of the lockdown at nearly 10,000 a week.

What do you think would have happened if we hadn't had the lockdown?

[drfchound]

This thread needs to get back on topic.

[Axholme Lion]

You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.

People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.

You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.

Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?

No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!

There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.

Why do you say we knew COVID was mild after the first lockdown?

COVID killed 75,000 people in the winter of 2020/21. Even WITH a (late) lockdown. How many do you think would have died without action being taken? How do you think the NHS would have coped without action?

For more information see 'scaremongering@bst.com'