Ukraine

[normal rules]

The rat is being cornered. Slowly but surely.

[drfchound]

Cornered rats can be incredibly dangerous.

[ravenrover]

Unless you've got a bloomin great stick or something stronger

[ncRover]

He knows he’s dead if he tries anything stupid. And sadly I think that’s his priority over millions of others.

[normal rules]

Cornered rats can be incredibly dangerous.

indeed. and if you've read the story of Putins upbringing, esp when he was a child, then it does raise obvious concerns. 

[SydneyRover]

I don't believe anything putin has said to date

[Nudga]

Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?

I was just about to say no one here mentioned how the US isn't signed up to this court. So when Zelensky is in Hollywood after all this is over,  will Putin have a court order against him not to go within 200 yards of Zelensky's crib and make do with parading around Muscle Beach when he goes for his jollies?

[glosterred]

Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?

Yep that didn’t happen

[normal rules]

Whilst the US may not be a signatory to this, does anyone honestly think Putin would step foot on US soil?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?

I'm no supporter of Bush or the Iraq War, but America didn't carpet bomb millions in Iraq. Unlike Putin did in Chechnya and Aleppo.

America also didn't systematically steal children from captured territory and "integrate" them in its own country. Which is what Putin's regime has bragged about doing.

[Nudga]

So the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.

[drfchound]

Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?

I'm no supporter of Bush or the Iraq War, but America didn't carpet bomb millions in Iraq. Unlike Putin did in Chechnya and Aleppo.

America also didn't systematically steal children from captured territory and "integrate" them in its own country. Which is what Putin's regime has bragged about doing.

Like the Chinese are doing with the muslim kids too.
And yet only a few days ago you were favourably comparing the Chinese government to ours.

[glosterred]

So the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.

Shock and awe did happen but the carpet bombing of millions did not.

[normal rules]

Wasn’t it brave of him to go visit Mariupol? At night. What freedoms. Lol.

[Nudga]

So the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.

Shock and awe did happen but the carpet bombing of millions did not.

Madelaine Albright thought the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children were worth it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671

UK sending "safe" uranium to  Ukraine

[glosterred]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671

UK sending "safe" uranium to  Ukraine

Good - you do know that the Russians already have this option in their armoury.

[Bristol Red Rover]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671

UK sending "safe" uranium to  Ukraine

Good - you do know that the Russians already have this option in their armoury.

I think the point is if Ukraine uses it. So far Russia hasn't.

[normal rules]

Russia has taken up Presidency on the UN security Council.
Ridiculous.

[Bristol Red Rover]

From the BBC:
"Moscow's ambassador to the UN, Vasily Nebenzia, told the Russian Tass news agency that he planned to oversee several debates, including one on arms control.

He said he would discuss a "new world order" that, he said, was coming to "replace the unipolar one". "

Sounds like two important issues being raised there. I know many like the security of having a US overlord, but evidently times are changing.

[Filo]

Putin wanted to halt NATO on it’s borders by his aggression, today he’s got 830 more miles of NATO on his borders, thats a bit of a kick in the teeth for him, he’ll have to mobilise to police that 830 miles if he wants to keep fighting Ukraine. I’m sure that will go down well with the natives

[SydneyRover]

This is an interesting development

''Takeaways from AP’s report on elite Russian defector''

''LONDON (AP) — In October, an officer in Russian President Vladimir Putin’s elite personal security service defected while on a business trip in Kazakhstan.

Now a wanted man in Russia, Gleb Karakulov spoke out for the first time in a series of interviews with the Dossier Center, an investigative group in London funded by Russian opposition figure Mikhail Khodorkovsky. The AP took steps to review and verify the material''

https://apnews.com/article/defector-russia-takeaways-karakulov-dossier-center-putin-42c570974c93255d178c5b373c9c12d3

[Dutch Uncle]

Putin wanted to halt NATO on it’s borders by his aggression, today he’s got 830 more miles of NATO on his borders, thats a bit of a kick in the teeth for him, he’ll have to mobilise to police that 830 miles if he wants to keep fighting Ukraine. I’m sure that will go down well with the natives

Just to put my two-pennorth on your comment Filo - in reality there is no threat to Putin from the new extended land border with NATO Countries' territory, NATO will never launch a first attack into Russia. This only comes into play if an Article V situation arises, a NATO Country is attacked by Russia, and a war with Russia starts. Only at this point may defence include strikes against military targets in Russia. Only a person as duplicitous as Putin, who would and does break rules to attack when it suits him, would calculate that NATO might do the same thing. Hence his need to keep some forces to defend that newly enlarged border. 

[Bristol Red Rover]

Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones,  shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

In that hypothetical, I strongly suspect the rest of NATO would give the same response Kaiser Wilhelm gave his Prime Minister in 1914. "You have cooked this soup. Now you will have to eat it."

Strange that you continue to look for these hypotheticals to explore NATO's philosophy, but you find it so hard to unequivocally condemn Russia for invading a neighbouring state.

[Bristol Red Rover]

How is that strange? There's no relationship between the points you state.

It's hypothetical, but also something that could easily happen. If it did, you might not be concerned, but others might not be wanting a nuclear winter with the price of heating these days.

The second point I've already replied to. I detest the invasion, less so with Crimea.

[Dutch Uncle]

Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones,  shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.

There are examples of that, but apart from sabre rattling and skirmishes between Greece and Turkey I cannot recall any within the NATO defined area of responsibility, e.g. UK in Falklands was 'invaded' but NATO did not come to UK aid because it was out of region.

If you are talking about Finland or some other NATO nation with a border with Russia, IMHO there is no indigenous national force along Russia's borders with NATO countries that would have anywhere near enough offensive capability to launch serious attack with any objective other than suicide, so the point is IMHO moot. Why on earth would any of those countries wish to attack into Russia unilaterally?     

[Bristol Red Rover]

Poland joining in is the biggest danger. There are already a lot of Poles fighting in Ukraine, plus with the new NATO weapons it's likely that some Poles who are familiar with them will be operating them as well as maintaining them possibly within Ukraine as well as in Poland. Where is the red line there? Who knows.

Given Zelensky's recent trip to Poland, and the very desperate situation where to fail in an offensive in the coming weeks would likely lose support from NATO countries, who knows what mutually beneficial deals were struck? Both current support and a potential unification of the Kyiv state and Poland if Russia takes the territory in the east and south and breaks the Ukraine forces, as is highly possible. Conjecture for sure, but it is the dangerous spot.

Finland I doubt would do anything despite being very well placed with manpower and weapons.

[Dutch Uncle]

Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones,  shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.

Poland joining in is the biggest danger. There are already a lot of Poles fighting in Ukraine, plus with the new NATO weapons it's likely that some Poles who are familiar with them will be operating them as well as maintaining them possibly within Ukraine as well as in Poland. Where is the red line there? Who knows.

Given Zelensky's recent trip to Poland, and the very desperate situation where to fail in an offensive in the coming weeks would likely lose support from NATO countries, who knows what mutually beneficial deals were struck? Both current support and a potential unification of the Kyiv state and Poland if Russia takes the territory in the east and south and breaks the Ukraine forces, as is highly possible. Conjecture for sure, but it is the dangerous spot.

Finland I doubt would do anything despite being very well placed with manpower and weapons.

I am a bit confused by your last post BRR

First of all Poland’s border with Russia comprises only the 232km border with the enclave of Kaliningrad, and there is no chance as far as I can see of Poland wishing to attack there unilaterally.

On the other hand I would be astounded if there any Poles fighting in Ukraine who are not individual mercenaries (like a number of British and Americans) unauthorised by their government.

Also I do not see them attacking Russian territory as you suggest in (1) or flying aircraft as in (3). As far as I can see attacks within Russia (I don’t count Crimea) are limited to drones and very small numbers of special forces (e.g. airbase sabotage attacks). Again I would be astounded if that involved Polish Government supported Polish nationals.

So I until I see evidence to the contrary I still think your question is moot. Why would Poland risk such escalation and possible alienation from NATO?