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Tyke.If you ever want to see a left Govt again, you'd do well to ponder what I just wrote.You can hanker for the past but it is the past. The only way the left wins in future is by appealing to ex-miners in Barnsley, graduates in Bristol and third generation Bengalis in Tower Hamlets. If you insist on seeing the other two as an enemy to be baited and defeated, then you can look forward to right wing Governments for the rest of your life.
Tyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.
Quote from: Janso on January 01, 2021, 11:01:26 pmWhy does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?I don't think my opinion is of any more value than anybody else .I didn't say the proper left , I said the traditional left from back in the day when we had strong trade unions and they were all anti EU .Would you like me to rewrite history ? This is played out today because the last man standing as a trade union with serious clout are the RMT who are anti EU .The fact is following the miners strike the other trade unions in this country sort refuge in the EU as a consequence of Thatcher's policies .The phrase frying pan in to the fire was never more appropriate .Maybe they thought the word Union was some kind of connection ..... bless !!! .I merely speak as a trade union man , ex NUM and proudly working class who hasn't moved an inch on his opinion of the EU .Billy says I'm a minority in this day and age , surely given that assessment the current Labour Party should be all over me given that's the only thing they want to represent .You'd be better placed to actually debate how Labour are going to win the vote back in the Red Wall rather than whose lefter than who .I'm comfortable in my skin .
Why does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?
Tyke.If you ever want to see a left Govt again, you'd do well to ponder what I just wrote.You can hanker for the past but it is the past. The only way the left wins in future is by appealing to ex-miners in Barnsley, graduates in Bristol and third generation Bengalis in Tower Hamlets. If you insist on seeing the other two as an enemy to be baited and defeated, then you can look forward to right wing Governments for the rest of your life.
Quote from: MachoMadness on January 01, 2021, 11:21:53 pmTyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.I never said anything of the sort and how on earth would you know what my lifestyle is like ? So what problems does joining Momentum actually solve ? .Are the bars and restaurants in London going to pay them more when they flash their Momentum credentials ?Will the EU suddenly decide to end free movement and cheap labour because of the poor old Momentum members ? .What's wrong with you people ? .Why don't they try to be a collective post brexit and grow a pair ? .Anything that was ever won was won from struggle not joining a bunch of fruit cakes who want to change the world and can't see the wood from the trees .
Quote from: tyke1962 on January 01, 2021, 11:37:52 pmQuote from: Janso on January 01, 2021, 11:01:26 pmWhy does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?I don't think my opinion is of any more value than anybody else .I didn't say the proper left , I said the traditional left from back in the day when we had strong trade unions and they were all anti EU .Would you like me to rewrite history ? This is played out today because the last man standing as a trade union with serious clout are the RMT who are anti EU .The fact is following the miners strike the other trade unions in this country sort refuge in the EU as a consequence of Thatcher's policies .The phrase frying pan in to the fire was never more appropriate .Maybe they thought the word Union was some kind of connection ..... bless !!! .I merely speak as a trade union man , ex NUM and proudly working class who hasn't moved an inch on his opinion of the EU .Billy says I'm a minority in this day and age , surely given that assessment the current Labour Party should be all over me given that's the only thing they want to represent .You'd be better placed to actually debate how Labour are going to win the vote back in the Red Wall rather than whose lefter than who .I'm comfortable in my skin .You're the only one trying to debate who's lefter than who.
Short memory, Tyke. You seem to be forgetting that unions were emasculated in the 80s by Thatcher. It's been a whole different landscape for downtrodden workers for 40 years now.
Quote from: tyke1962 on January 01, 2021, 11:52:15 pmQuote from: MachoMadness on January 01, 2021, 11:21:53 pmTyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.I never said anything of the sort and how on earth would you know what my lifestyle is like ? So what problems does joining Momentum actually solve ? .Are the bars and restaurants in London going to pay them more when they flash their Momentum credentials ?Will the EU suddenly decide to end free movement and cheap labour because of the poor old Momentum members ? .What's wrong with you people ? .Why don't they try to be a collective post brexit and grow a pair ? .Anything that was ever won was won from struggle not joining a bunch of fruit cakes who want to change the world and can't see the wood from the trees .Isn't the whole point of Momentum that it's a collective? To pull the Labour party leftwards to look after its predominantly working class members? I'm not a member but the idea that they're all middle-class lefties living in Soho flats is laughable. The irony that you make such a big deal out of your trade union credentials when you repeat talking points from the Mail and ultra-far-right clowns like Paul Embery is amazing. The fact you appear to be blaming workers for being exploited by their bosses is interesting, too. Easy to say "grow a pair" when you aren't on minimum wage struggling to keep a roof over your head. You're speaking about a class of people you haven't been a part of in decades, Tyke. Why on earth do you think you know what's best for a 20-year-old waiting tables in this day and age? A lot of these people will never get close to even owning their own home or car. And your response to that, when they try and raise their voice about it, is "grow a pair". Just another boomer looking to pull the ladder up behind him, it seems.
Tyke.Does it ever dawn on you that the Unions were the cause of the situation we are now in. That they were the cause of their own destruction in the 1980s by their behaviour in the 1970s, when many of them were taken over by extremists? That they allowed themselves to be painted as enemies of the working class, and were effectively emasculated.And no you turn round and blame young people these days, when it was precisely YOUR generation of young people who allowed a fine, vital system if working class solidarity and protection to be hijacked by revolutionaries and destroyed by the Right.
Really, providing for their families? And here was silly old me thinking it was only about pit closures
The 1984 miners' strike was about nothing more than Scargill's personal ambition and he did it by conning NUM members to support him. Similar factors have given us the clown we currently have for a Prime Minister.
Tyke.I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.As a union leader, what do you do?Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 02, 2021, 03:59:15 pmTyke.I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.As a union leader, what do you do?Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!Unfortunately Billy you are mistaken .Round about the time you thought 1974 Miners strike was a good thing plans were already getting prepared for the annihilation of the Trade Union Movement with the Tory Party .Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman created the Centre For Political Studies inspired by free market trumpeter Milton Friedman where neoliberalism , free marketeering and Trade Unions stamped in to the dust were planned .Thatcher on winning the Tory leadership was invited to take a look at the game plan and as we know relished the idea .1978/79 was irrelevant they were gunning for us well before that .Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not .Interestingly none of the plans were put in the 1979 tory manifesto , in fact hardly anything was in it .So the country didn't vote Labour out because they couldn't control the unions , the country voted Labour out because they were completely clueless and unfit to govern .I wasn't until 1983 and Thatcher's second term we started to see her hand with privatisation and then picking the fight with the NUM and the start of the Miners strike .Afterwards the rest of the trade union movement looked to the EU for protection from free market economics and anti trade union laws , that worked well then !!! .You'd hope that now today's Trade Unions no longer have a hat to hang on the EU peg that they may sense an opportunity to actually start a recruitment drive and make their presence known .It would be a fair idea too that younger people engage with em and start standing up for themselves because as bad as they think they have it , it's absolutely nothing by comparison to what was achieved by the pioneers in social struggle at the beginning of the last century .They bloody starved to death when they were blacklisted or had the guns turned on them in 1926 so I'm afraid the look at my generation ... poor us doesn't quite work for me .
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
Quote from: Janso on January 02, 2021, 06:27:37 pmHow patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
Quote from: tyke1962 on January 02, 2021, 06:08:39 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 02, 2021, 03:59:15 pmTyke.I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.As a union leader, what do you do?Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!Unfortunately Billy you are mistaken .Round about the time you thought 1974 Miners strike was a good thing plans were already getting prepared for the annihilation of the Trade Union Movement with the Tory Party .Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman created the Centre For Political Studies inspired by free market trumpeter Milton Friedman where neoliberalism , free marketeering and Trade Unions stamped in to the dust were planned .Thatcher on winning the Tory leadership was invited to take a look at the game plan and as we know relished the idea .1978/79 was irrelevant they were gunning for us well before that .Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not .Interestingly none of the plans were put in the 1979 tory manifesto , in fact hardly anything was in it .So the country didn't vote Labour out because they couldn't control the unions , the country voted Labour out because they were completely clueless and unfit to govern .I wasn't until 1983 and Thatcher's second term we started to see her hand with privatisation and then picking the fight with the NUM and the start of the Miners strike .Afterwards the rest of the trade union movement looked to the EU for protection from free market economics and anti trade union laws , that worked well then !!! .You'd hope that now today's Trade Unions no longer have a hat to hang on the EU peg that they may sense an opportunity to actually start a recruitment drive and make their presence known .It would be a fair idea too that younger people engage with em and start standing up for themselves because as bad as they think they have it , it's absolutely nothing by comparison to what was achieved by the pioneers in social struggle at the beginning of the last century .They bloody starved to death when they were blacklisted or had the guns turned on them in 1926 so I'm afraid the look at my generation ... poor us doesn't quite work for me .I,m guessing you would be in your 70’s, if you are, you are the generation that had everything
This thread highlights what I've said on here several times, that Starmer has taken on a momentous task, to unite a party that is hopelessly split between the liberalists and the left, the North and the South, and the young and the old.Then, if he miraculously manages that, he's got to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into a Labour majority.I don't envy his task one bit.
Quote from: tyke1962 on January 02, 2021, 07:03:16 pmQuote from: Janso on January 02, 2021, 06:27:37 pmHow patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards. You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
Quote from: Janso on January 02, 2021, 07:21:18 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on January 02, 2021, 07:03:16 pmQuote from: Janso on January 02, 2021, 06:27:37 pmHow patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards. You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.Maybe folk are a little too easily offended these days .