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Tyke your reference to beheading is in poor taste considering what happened in Paris yesterday..
Tyke.For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have. You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 17, 2020, 01:17:11 amTyke.For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have. You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.Billy let me ask you a question .Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
Tyke.Yes of course I did.Did you ever think about the counterfactual? What would have happened to Labour had they embraced Brexit?
Quote from: tyke1962 on October 17, 2020, 09:55:09 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 17, 2020, 01:17:11 amTyke.For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have. You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.Billy let me ask you a question .Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ? Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?
BST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per centDont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 17, 2020, 11:05:49 amTyke.Yes of course I did.Did you ever think about the counterfactual? What would have happened to Labour had they embraced Brexit?You envisaged ex miners would vote Tory , fair enough Billy .You should give Starmer a call , the party need a good political analyst .Personally I never thought that would happen in 2016 , extremely pyssed off for sure but vote Tory ? Far too much history and bad blood for that to happen but clearly I was wrong .
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on October 17, 2020, 11:10:56 amQuote from: tyke1962 on October 17, 2020, 09:55:09 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 17, 2020, 01:17:11 amTyke.For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have. You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.Billy let me ask you a question .Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ? Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?Not on that scale no , to be fair she wasn't exactly helped by the democracy deniers and political opportunists either .
Quote from: Donnywolf on October 17, 2020, 06:30:00 amBST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per centDont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)Actually we CAN compell people to vote. We do the same as Australia where you are fined if you don't vote.
Quote from: EasyforDennis on October 17, 2020, 11:29:36 amQuote from: Donnywolf on October 17, 2020, 06:30:00 amBST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per centDont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)Actually we CAN compell people to vote. We do the same as Australia where you are fined if you don't vote.And who the f*ck will pay the fine?This country can't even keep people safe on the streets.
With or without a deal the fishing rights problem will possibly prove to be deadly. Both sides have crazy fishermen but it seems that the johny foreigners have the bigger boats and that could lead to a fishing war. We have seen images of crazy French boats ramming British boats in the past, and lets not forget we are talking about fishermens livlihoods at stake here
Kato, we are looking at the remnants of our fishing industry that has been decimated since we entered the EU to the benefit of other members fishing communities in other member states fishing in our waters. I have seen repeatedly the percentage of GDP as it is now quoted in a way to reduce the effect on our economy and minimize the so called effect to our country compared with other industries. I have never seen the GDP figures as they were as we entered the EU to compare with present day but would guess that it was a bigger share of GDP at that time having visited as a school trip to Hull and Grimsby the massive fish docks that no longer exist. This could be the chance to grow that industry back to how it was, perhaps Europe could be their market.
Quote from: ravenrover on October 17, 2020, 09:47:30 pmWith or without a deal the fishing rights problem will possibly prove to be deadly. Both sides have crazy fishermen but it seems that the johny foreigners have the bigger boats and that could lead to a fishing war. We have seen images of crazy French boats ramming British boats in the past, and lets not forget we are talking about fishermens livlihoods at stake here Funny isn't it. The country is up in arms about fishermen's livelihood's, yet the same people couldn't give a shit when thousands of miners lost their jobs when the mines were closed down. And then there was the Steel Workers, and........... The right wing media have a lot to answer for!