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Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on September 19, 2019, 07:09:32 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on September 19, 2019, 03:10:19 pmYes I agree but all those are minuscule in comparison to all the reasons for not leavingSydneyAs a genuine and unloaded question on my part, what would you say are the 5 primary advantages to the UK remaining in the EU that would be impossible for us to introduce as non members?Tariff free trading with EU countries which I figure is one of the biggest advantages of being a member. The boost to trade with this alone would bury most of any advantages to leaving in financial terms. I think that Austerity will look like a walk on the park compared to what the cost will be over 10 years from point brexit and possibly longer. The clout the EU has with making deals with non EU countries especially the US, I think Trump wants to separate us from the pack so he can screw us over and force us into a trade deal he could not otherwise implement if we were part of the EU. The tories have already shown us what they think of the NHS and when the treasury has nothing in it it would be just dandy for them to suggest that we can't afford to rebuild this or that hospital but there is this really nice US pharma/med insurance company that wants to help us out.In Australia a lot of the large infrastructure contracts given to foreign countries/companies include deals where they can ring fence the site and bring in their own cheap labour to build the project, this is partly because we are a stand alone country and partly because the government is hard right wing. Unlike a lot of brexiters I think that freedom of movement is a benefit to the UK and that the majority of them come to the UK to work hard and earn a living and makes Britain better in so many ways. I do not think that many British farmers and companies will survive without this pool of foreign labour and that the tories or whoever gets power following Brexit will find a way to give them access, in fact I think that most of the things that brexiters want will be denied to them by any incoming governments over time.I can't give you a definitive list of things that can or cannot be done once any form of brexit happens and neither can the government, no one knows because there is no definitive contract that spells it out but I can hazard a guess that just about everything will cost more except over time British labour which will be screwed over by successive tory governments who will remove safeguards and reduce wages.
Quote from: SydneyRover on September 19, 2019, 03:10:19 pmYes I agree but all those are minuscule in comparison to all the reasons for not leavingSydneyAs a genuine and unloaded question on my part, what would you say are the 5 primary advantages to the UK remaining in the EU that would be impossible for us to introduce as non members?
Yes I agree but all those are minuscule in comparison to all the reasons for not leaving
I remember reading about tariffs.. the tariff on imported cars from the EU was going to be 10% - without a brexit deal.It may well be that there would be fewer tariffs for industry, but for the consumer (ie voters) then some prices would inevitably rise.So in theory all those leave voters who don’t care about no deal will be hit in the pocket when they buy a new BMW, VW, Fiat, Citroen etc..
Quote from: IDM on September 20, 2019, 12:33:21 pmI remember reading about tariffs.. the tariff on imported cars from the EU was going to be 10% - without a brexit deal.It may well be that there would be fewer tariffs for industry, but for the consumer (ie voters) then some prices would inevitably rise.So in theory all those leave voters who don’t care about no deal will be hit in the pocket when they buy a new BMW, VW, Fiat, Citroen etc..You’re right about imported cars IDM, but for other things such as some fruits & veg, tv’s, & household furnishings they’ll be reduced to a zero tariff. Depends if the retailer passes on the savings though
OK guys this is your chance, I've just lobbed into Strasbourg would there be any messages you would like me to pass on?
Quote from: SydneyRover on September 19, 2019, 08:58:23 pmQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on September 19, 2019, 07:09:32 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on September 19, 2019, 03:10:19 pmYes I agree but all those are minuscule in comparison to all the reasons for not leavingSydneyAs a genuine and unloaded question on my part, what would you say are the 5 primary advantages to the UK remaining in the EU that would be impossible for us to introduce as non members?Tariff free trading with EU countries which I figure is one of the biggest advantages of being a member. The boost to trade with this alone would bury most of any advantages to leaving in financial terms. I think that Austerity will look like a walk on the park compared to what the cost will be over 10 years from point brexit and possibly longer. The clout the EU has with making deals with non EU countries especially the US, I think Trump wants to separate us from the pack so he can screw us over and force us into a trade deal he could not otherwise implement if we were part of the EU. The tories have already shown us what they think of the NHS and when the treasury has nothing in it it would be just dandy for them to suggest that we can't afford to rebuild this or that hospital but there is this really nice US pharma/med insurance company that wants to help us out.In Australia a lot of the large infrastructure contracts given to foreign countries/companies include deals where they can ring fence the site and bring in their own cheap labour to build the project, this is partly because we are a stand alone country and partly because the government is hard right wing. Unlike a lot of brexiters I think that freedom of movement is a benefit to the UK and that the majority of them come to the UK to work hard and earn a living and makes Britain better in so many ways. I do not think that many British farmers and companies will survive without this pool of foreign labour and that the tories or whoever gets power following Brexit will find a way to give them access, in fact I think that most of the things that brexiters want will be denied to them by any incoming governments over time.I can't give you a definitive list of things that can or cannot be done once any form of brexit happens and neither can the government, no one knows because there is no definitive contract that spells it out but I can hazard a guess that just about everything will cost more except over time British labour which will be screwed over by successive tory governments who will remove safeguards and reduce wages.Good stuff, thanks Sydney I’m glad you mentioned tariffs because this is one area where I struggle due to my ignorance of the subject. A while ago, I read that post Brexit, most imports would be tariff free. After Brexit 87% of imports by value, wouldn’t have a tariff, compared to 80% currently. However, some tariffs would be maintained to protect U.K. industries particularly agricultural. Under the scheme, some imported cars would attract tariffs, but car parts from the EU would remain tariff free to protect the UK car industry. Also, under current rules only 56% of imports from outside the EU are tariff free and this will increase to 92% post Brexit. The expectation is that this tariff free facility will be reciprocal with the EU and other countries around the world, something we’re unable to do currently. Now, in my admittedly novice mind, all of this seems to be good news? What am I missing here?
No matter how it all turns out Brexit will be blamed for all the negatives and will get no credit for the positives. Even if we end up the richest country in the world it won't be because of Brexit, because we would have been even richer still had we stayed in the EU, according to the Remoaners!Bad losers never change.
Also, under current rules only 56% of imports from outside the EU are tariff free and this will increase to 92% post Brexit. The expectation is that this tariff free facility will be reciprocal with the EU and other countries around the world, something we’re unable to do currently. Now, in my admittedly novice mind, all of this seems to be good news? What am I missing here?
Quote from: Bentley Bullet on September 20, 2019, 02:15:14 pmNo matter how it all turns out Brexit will be blamed for all the negatives and will get no credit for the positives. Even if we end up the richest country in the world it won't be because of Brexit, because we would have been even richer still had we stayed in the EU, according to the Remoaners!Bad losers never change.So let's summarise your position.1) Specific bad things were predicted to happen as a direct result of the decision to Leave, even before we actually did leave.2) Those specific bad things happened.3) You've consistently refused to accept that those things happened, or, when you have accepted that they happened, you've refused to draw the link between them and the vote (you've blamed them on the 2017 Election, uncertainty due to Remainers blocking Brexit and a general air if mardiness among Remainers).4) The same economists who (correctly) predicted that bad things would happen as a result of the vote, also predict that worse things will happen when we finally do leave.5) You refuse to engage with those predictions because, according to you, you can't predict the future.6) Except that you ARE prepared to predict the future, apparently, when it comes to chucking stupid insults at what people with whom disagree.You could actually engage with the issues here. But you never do. You just go looking for arguments. Then throw a strop when someone argues back and accuse them if being disrespectful.
In the interest of not adding fuel to the fire, I suggest you stay out of this. If you want to know read the threads yourself.
In response to your other points.1) Jesus wept...2) Yes. They. Did. The economic experts predicted a sharp devaluation, a spike in inflation, falling real wages as a result, a sharp reduction in foreign investment, an ongoing productivity slump and a sharp economic slowdown. Every one of those things happened. They were predicted to happen not because of uncertainty, but because of the high likelihood that ANY form of Brexit would lead to a weaker economic future. The only uncertainty is whether it is going to be bad or very bad. If there was a likely upside, there would be many companies who would be investing heavily on the chance of making a killing by getting in ahead of the pack.3) Those predictions were demonstrably correct. And now you're at it again, saying it is due to uncertainty, which you yourself blame if Remainers blocking Brexit. You've also regularly suggested that we've struggled after the Vote because of Remainers' moaning about the outcome instead of knuckling down. What you have never once done is accept that the bad things that happened in 2 were predictable and predicted by straightforward economic analysis.4) So you flatly contradict your response to 2...5) What you have constantly done is to refuse to engage with the overwhelming consensus of people who spend their lives analysing these things and have a long track record of being right. You simply dismiss them as being of no importance. And then you make smart arse remarks about other people's supposed bad faith.
The result of the referendum being carried out far outweighs the financial consequences in terms of importance any day.