Coronavirus

[Panda]

Great, if it is Covid just pass it on. Hope you don't come into contact with someone immune problems

I have an automimmune disorder. Not fussed in the slightest if someone i'm near has Covid. That's life.

[Panda]

I can't believe we are still having this discussion, but while flu is bad, the idea that normal seasonal flu is remotely as bad as COVID is just flat wrong. No arguments at all.

The infection fatality rate for a bad season of flu is about 0.15%. The IFR for COVID varied between countries, but after allowing for the age of the people infected, the rate was generally 0.5-1%. In other words, if 10,000 people of a range of health conditions, ages and economic backgrounds caught all caught COVID on 1st October, in the absence of vaccinations, 50-100 of them wouldn't make it to November. The numbers for a typical flu strain would be 10-15.

I also cannot believe we are still having this discussion. That Covid stats are somehow reliable. 

[ravenrover]

Great, if it is Covid just pass it on. Hope you don't come into contact with someone immune problems

Pretty well proven that covid jabs make little difference to assing it on.

?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It is up to each individual (given that the individual has the capacity to make their own decisions) to take what precautions that they see fit to maintain their own well being (and any they have responsibility for) It is not their responsibility for everyone else

That logic leads to the conclusion that you do away with speed limits outside schools. Just trust everyone to take care of themselves. And if you're worried that your kid would be at risk, just keep them at home.

Or you do away with security checks on planes. As long as I don't take a bomb on board I'll be safe. Or if I'm worried someone else will take a bomb on board, I can choose not to fly.

Libertarianism versus reality. Only ever going to be one winner.

[Ldr]

It is up to each individual (given that the individual has the capacity to make their own decisions) to take what precautions that they see fit to maintain their own well being (and any they have responsibility for) It is not their responsibility for everyone else

That logic leads to the conclusion that you do away with speed limits outside schools. Just trust everyone to take care of themselves. And if you're worried that your kid would be at risk, just keep them at home.

Or you do away with security checks on planes. As long as I don't take a bomb on board I'll be safe. Or if I'm worried someone else will take a bomb on board, I can choose not to fly.

Libertarianism versus reality. Only ever going to be one winner.

Only in your head does it do that, law is in place in your scenarios. Let’s not have another winter of ppl trying to emotionally blackmail others into vaccinations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point being Ldr, that there are many, many situations where society places expectations or restrictions on behaviour for the greater good. You cannot have a society that operates on the basis that everyone is responsible for and only for their individual safety.  Society is a system that is far too complex for that to work. Individuals cannot accurately appraise the risk that certain behaviours might put them in. So we all (most of us anyway) accept that society has the right to regulate and limit the behaviour of people whose actions materially affect the safety of others.

I think that if someone walks down the street firing a gun randomly, they are to blame if people get killed. You think it is the fault of the person who was shot. Read the first paragraph of your post up there. That is precisely what you are saying.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Except that gun in your hysterical analogy doesn't kill everyone, not by a long way. People are always going to be harmed from viruses but the vast majority of harm comes to the vulnerable. They are who need protecting, they are the ones who need to lock down not the general population.

The situation was different when the virus wasn't known. Now it is, we know it's not THAT bad. It wil be around forever, and basically we need to get on with living. Our bodies have dealt with viruses since the beginning of time. Why do you thik this is different? The alternative is a miserable mess that leads to people living in bubbles.

[BillyStubbsTears]

We know that it is pretty much exactly as bad as the experts said it would be 30 months ago. At a time that you, personally, were constantly downplaying the danger.

We have a very clear understanding that if we hadn't taken exceptional measures in Spring 2020, measures that you, personally said were an over reaction, that we'd have seen something between 250-500k deaths in the Spring of 2020, and the complete breakdown of the health system.

Accept those facts and you might be worth listening to now.

Except, no you're not worth listening to now, because you are being very silly overplaying the current situation. Literally no-one is talking about wanting or needing to make "a miserable mess that leads to people living in bubbles." The question is whether people can help themselves and others by getting vaccinated this winter.

[Panda]

Point being Ldr, that there are many, many situations where society places expectations or restrictions on behaviour for the greater good. You cannot have a society that operates on the basis that everyone is responsible for and only for their individual safety.  Society is a system that is far too complex for that to work. Individuals cannot accurately appraise the risk that certain behaviours might put them in. So we all (most of us anyway) accept that society has the right to regulate and limit the behaviour of people whose actions materially affect the safety of others.

I think that if someone walks down the street firing a gun randomly, they are to blame if people get killed. You think it is the fault of the person who was shot. Read the first paragraph of your post up there. That is precisely what you are saying.

There is no such thing as this 'society' that you claim everyone has a stake in. Boil it all down and put serious adversity in the way of people so that the most basic of resources become scarce and most people will ultimately go back to base level and look after themselves or their own. This 'society' thing is an illusion.

You only need to look at the petrol stations when there is a whiff of a fuel shortage to realize that most people only care about 'society', or claim to, when their needs are met. When their needs are threatened, then they suddenly don't care anymore and it's every man for himself.

Many people only wanted others to get a Covid jab because they themselves sought to gain some sort of protection from the virus from the other person being vaccinated and therefore the real reason was their own selfishness. But all in the name of a 'caring society' eh?

Many people did get vaccinated because they felt compelled to buy into this illusion of 'doing the right thing' and they are now deceased due to taking a vaccine they need not have taken. All in the name of society.

Yet society doesn't now recognise these people, who are the real heroes by the way. Society sees these people as collateral damage and doesn't want to speak up for these people or ensure that monuments are erected for these people to pay tribute to them for wanting to protect others. Society eh? So caring and inclusive.

[Ldr]

The kicker this winter is we are expecting the same flu variant as 17/18

[Panda]

The one in winter 2019 wasn't to be brushed off easy either. Unless that was Covid. Which i'm certain it was.

The real kicker is the fact that we have a dysfunctional, chaotic, dangerous health service and this enhances the risk of having an adverse outcome from contracting flu.

Is there any wonder they are now onto the relentless 'get your flu jab' campaign? Almost as if Flu is now the new Covid.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

[knockers]

Two from my work went home with flu like symptoms today and there were several others not feeling great. Somethings definitely doing the rounds.

[Bristol Red Rover]

We know that it is pretty much exactly as bad as the experts said it would be 30 months ago. At a time that you, personally, were constantly downplaying the danger.

We have a very clear understanding that if we hadn't taken exceptional measures in Spring 2020, measures that you, personally said were an over reaction, that we'd have seen something between 250-500k deaths in the Spring of 2020, and the complete breakdown of the health system.

Accept those facts and you might be worth listening to now.

Except, no you're not worth listening to now, because you are being very silly overplaying the current situation. Literally no-one is talking about wanting or needing to make "a miserable mess that leads to people living in bubbles." The question is whether people can help themselves and others by getting vaccinated this winter.

Good try at avoiding the points.

So you still insist on equating covid to a gun. Nice one. I think your reasonning falls out the window right there. Never mind with trying to justify your nonsense stats as I pointed out.

[i_ateallthepies]

I can't believe we are still having this discussion, but while flu is bad, the idea that normal seasonal flu is remotely as bad as COVID is just flat wrong. No arguments at all.

The infection fatality rate for a bad season of flu is about 0.15%. The IFR for COVID varied between countries, but after allowing for the age of the people infected, the rate was generally 0.5-1%. In other words, if 10,000 people of a range of health conditions, ages and economic backgrounds caught all caught COVID on 1st October, in the absence of vaccinations, 50-100 of them wouldn't make it to November. The numbers for a typical flu strain would be 10-15.

I also cannot believe we are still having this discussion. That Covid stats are somehow reliable. 

Only today on another thread you have admitted that you actually didn't know that mosquitos exist in this country, yet here you are speaking about something as complex as Coronavirus and expecting to be taken seriously. 

[Panda]

I know. Stupid me. Expected to know everything about the entire universe. Knew i was going to come a cropper at some point. Over mosquitoes an' all. 

[Panda]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

Below par funding?

A FOI put in by a bloke in Nuneaton about his local NHS hospital Trust, the George Eliot Hospital revealed that they were paying £138k a year to employ two people to hand out face masks and sanitizer at the hospital doors. A sum that could have paid for 4 nurses.

Funding is there. Unfortunately, so are inept overpaid NHS bosses who fritter it away.

If you always absolve the NHS of blame and don't hold them to account, you and i will always risk a lottery of a health service.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Two from my work went home with flu like symptoms today and there were several others not feeling great. Somethings definitely doing the rounds.

I've had a bad dose of summat since last Friday. Barely got out of bed over the weekend.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

Below par funding?

A FOI put in by a bloke in Nuneaton about his local NHS hospital Trust, the George Eliot Hospital revealed that they were paying £138k a year to employ two people to hand out face masks and sanitizer at the hospital doors. A sum that could have paid for 4 nurses.

Funding is there. Unfortunately, so are inept overpaid NHS bosses who fritter it away.

If you always absolve the NHS of blame and don't hold them to account, you and i will always risk a lottery of a health service.

Still reading that b*llocks from Toby Young then?

[Panda]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

Below par funding?

A FOI put in by a bloke in Nuneaton about his local NHS hospital Trust, the George Eliot Hospital revealed that they were paying £138k a year to employ two people to hand out face masks and sanitizer at the hospital doors. A sum that could have paid for 4 nurses.

Funding is there. Unfortunately, so are inept overpaid NHS bosses who fritter it away.

If you always absolve the NHS of blame and don't hold them to account, you and i will always risk a lottery of a health service.

Still reading that b*llocks from Toby Young then?

It is factual information. Do you agree with a hospital Trust wasting 138k a year on this nonsense? Not to mention any other Trusts who are doing the same. What a waste.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm so f**king tired of answering this tsunami of shit, but what do you think the cost to the hospital would be of a COVID outbreak? Or the effect on seriously ill patients.

[Panda]

I'm so f**king tired of answering this tsunami of shit, but what do you think the cost to the hospital would be of a COVID outbreak? Or the effect on seriously ill patients.

Given that most people already get Covid IN hospital, i'd say that masks aren't working for them anyway and also they are also comfortably dealing with Covid outbreaks.

I'm giving an example of a waste of 138k by the NHS and you are conveniently excusing it.

[Panda]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

Pretty much all people in hospital with Covid are fully jabbed. The unjabbed are vastly under represented in our A&E's around the country but let's blame them anyway. 

[SydneyRover]

Colin.
It's really simple.

The NHS is stretched to breaking point after 12 years of below par funding. They have massive backlogs to work through. They don't want thousands of beds taken up this winter by dumb Kitsons who insisted that vaccines are to be avoided.

Just simmer down a bit and try to think logically about this.

Below par funding?

A FOI put in by a bloke in Nuneaton about his local NHS hospital Trust, the George Eliot Hospital revealed that they were paying £138k a year to employ two people to hand out face masks and sanitizer at the hospital doors. A sum that could have paid for 4 nurses.

Funding is there. Unfortunately, so are inept overpaid NHS bosses who fritter it away.

If you always absolve the NHS of blame and don't hold them to account, you and i will always risk a lottery of a health service.

Still reading that b*llocks from Toby Young then?

It is factual information. Do you agree with a hospital Trust wasting 138k a year on this nonsense? Not to mention any other Trusts who are doing the same. What a waste.

I think you have to take into consideration that due to the wastage and massive overspend by tories handing contracts for ppe to their chums the masks by weight were the same price as gold.

[drfchound]

Judging by the number of discarded masks that I see on the streets (even now) not many people see them as valuable as gold.

[Panda]

Plus, those billions of masks that have found their way into the world's oceans.

[Colin C No.3]

Great, if it is Covid just pass it on. Hope you don't come into contact with someone immune problems

Pretty well proven that covid jabs make little difference to assing it on.

Strange, I had mine in my arm.

[Panda]

Great documentary on youtube, presented by actor John Bowe about vaccine damage, injuries and safety. Would liked to have seen MSM make something similar but of course, they stick to the narrative.

Safe and Effective: A Second Opinion

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah, cos who are you going to believe? Professional biomedical researchers who spend their lives studying these things? Or Duggie Ferguson off Corra?

That was a rhetorical question by the way. In your case, I know the answer.

[Panda]

I think 'the science' and 'the experts' have done us all a favour these last few years tbh. At least now we can distrust all medical professionals, question all science and not automatically trust and believe those who are in positions of power and compromised and who say they are 'scientists' and 'experts'.

Chris Whitty et al have done many of us a HUGE favour.

Love this quote to Chris Whitty by Bob Moran. One of your favourite people Billy.

'Rot in hell. You disgusting parasite'.

I'm impressed as i thought i was the only person left still with this simmering anger towards the likes of Mr Whitty and Mr Vallance et el.