Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the general best placed to lead a coup against Putin has had a convenient heart attack.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1507473089952718851

Mind, if rumours of 15-20,000 Russian dead on his watch are true, it might well be a genuine heart attack.

[wilts rover]

I like hoe people are criticising Corbyn for being a pacifist and asking for diplomacy instead of fighting - and the discussing how much Ukraine should give away to stop the fighting. Hmmm.

Personally I think the west should support Zelensky with whatever he wants to achieve what he wants to achieve. There will inevitably be talks between him and Putin at some point - fighting gets you in a position to make your demands at those talks.  if you know your Von Clausewitz.

Supply him with arms and munitions to keep his army and people going along with public support to boost their morale. Whilst continuing the sanctions on Russia to destroy their morale and fighting capacity. Then it will soon be over.

Corbyn would have kicked the oligarchs out of the UK, would have wanted a more humanitarian and organised retreat from Afghanistan and would have had a stronger relationship with the EU from the off (bombs back in NI yesterday) - so Putin would not have thought Europe was divided - and there wouldn't have been a war in the first place.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...


Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.

Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is one of the most persuasive pieces I've read on Putin's mentality.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ivan-krastev-on-russia-s-invasion-of-ukraine-putin-lives-in-historic-analogies-and-metaphors-a-1d043090-1111-4829-be90-c20fd5786288

Doesn't make me feel particularly safe, mind.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/

This is typical of their mentality.

"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"

At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.

[tyke1962]

Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/

This is typical of their mentality.

"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"

At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.

Would I have felt safe with Corbyn trusted with national security ?

Absolutely not .

But are the Tories any less dangerous Billy given what we know and have known about dirty Russian money inside the Tory Party and the city of London , money that's bought political influence in the government .

Six and two three's  perhaps .

[wilts rover]

Wilts.

I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...


Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.

Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.

I believe you have missed my point. If Corbyn had been PM we wouldn't be here - it wouldn't have started.

Johnson was clearly part of Putin's foreign policy and his actions over the past few years have clearly played a part in this start of this invasion/war. How much or how knowingly I doubt we will know in our lifetime.

And a bit rich to be discussing how much of Ukraine to give away and then accuse someone else of giving 'catnip to aggressors'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

That is wishful thinking of a very high order. You really think that Corbyn as PM would have prevented Putin's attack on Ukraine?

The only ways that the attack could have been averted were.
1) If Putin had known his forces were going to get a proper kicking.
Or
2) If Ukraine had been forced by the West to accept a status as a Russian vassal state.

Which of those do you think Corbyn would have been able to facilitate?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The discussion of how much of Ukraine to give away is an acceptance of where the state of play now is. You want to tell me how Ukraine is supposed to drive Russia out of Crimea and the Donbass?

And on that topic, how much of Ukraine do you reckon would now be under Russian control had their army not been trained and armed by NATO countries? Which, presumably, Corbyn wouldn't have taken part in, because he believes if we just hold hands and sing songs, everyone will be nice to each other.

[tyke1962]

The discussion of how much of Ukraine to give away is an acceptance of where the state of play now is. You want to tell me how Ukraine is supposed to drive Russia out of Crimea and the Donbass?

And on that topic, how much of Ukraine do you reckon would now be under Russian control had their army not been trained and armed by NATO countries? Which, presumably, Corbyn wouldn't have taken part in, because he believes if we just hold hands and sing songs, everyone will be nice to each other.

Plenty of evidence that suggests the Ukrainians are winning this war Billy and the longer it goes on the more they have the measure of Putin .

The question is how much blood are the Ukrainians prepared to shed to drive Putin totally out of Ukraine ? .

That's a difficult question to answer given the amount of civilian casualties so far and of course regrettably to come .

The Ukrainian death toll cannot be in vain , refugees fleeing the country cannot be in vain and these people cannot become victims to Putin and his war crimes .

There must be a future for them in Ukraine and they must have the option to return one day to a free Ukraine and rebuild their lives and the country .

This is incredibly hard I know but there can be no trade offs with a war criminal who invaded their country .

I take the point it's easy for me to say but my gut instinct is that the Ukrainians see it that way too .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ukraine aren't "winning" in the sense that they are going to easily, or even ever, be able to drive Russia out of Donbass or Crimea. They are holding their own in many places, and even pushing back in others. But that is against an invading force with pathetically incompetent and vulnerable supply lines.

Russian troops have been in charge in the Donbass and Crimea for nearly a decade. They are established. Fortified. They have no supply issues. Much of the public is on their side.

For Ukraine to expel them, it would take horrifically severe fighting over a long period. And critically, Putin cannot allow those areas to be lost. So there is no telling what lengths he would go to, what weapons he would use against the Ukraine army if he looked like losing.

It's a matter of fact that Crimea and much of the Donbass have been lost to Ukraine. Any peace deal has to recognise that, disgusting though it might sound. Because the alternative, at best, is a years long fight with losses of life running into the high hundreds of thousands, and the regions effectively destroyed anyway. And that would be the best outcome. The worst does not bear contemplating.

[tyke1962]

There's a massive gulf in my opinion in threatening to use nuclear weapons and actually pressing the red button .

I take the point it's a high stakes game to say the least .

I'm far from convinced what ever Putin's mental state is those in his close circle are prepared to go that far personally .

I'm obviously not in that position and it's easy for me to say admittedly but  I'd back calling his bluff instead of running scared of this tyrant and war criminal .

 " who dares wins "

[BillyStubbsTears]

He's already used chemical weapons in Syria. He's used nerve agent in Salisbury. Radioactive salts in London.

Are YOU going to trust your instincts that he wouldn't go further?

[tyke1962]

He's already used chemical weapons in Syria. He's used nerve agent in Salisbury. Radioactive salts in London.

Are YOU going to trust your instincts that he wouldn't go further?

This is a totally different conflict Billy because it involves a major player on our doorstep with nuclear capability .

It's easy to react when that nuclear threat doesn't exist but it has to be seen off none the less .

If this bstrd comes away from this in a more powerful position then what then ?

That pryck dictating to the world ?

Nar , call his bluff .

Yes I know the consequences and it's easy to say .

But living under a constant threat from this pryck isn't exactly great either .

[SydneyRover]

Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/

This is typical of their mentality.

"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"

At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.

Would I have felt safe with Corbyn trusted with national security ?

Absolutely not .

But are the Tories any less dangerous Billy given what we know and have known about dirty Russian money inside the Tory Party and the city of London , money that's bought political influence in the government .

Six and two three's  perhaps .

This is not reading tea leaves it's a known.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think in geopolitical terms Bidens comments on Putin today we're incredible and play right in to the hands of Putin.  It gives them a great excuse to continue and forge a war on grounds of Russian state security.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.


Putin does not come out of this stronger.

He was banking on:
a) His army being powerful
b) Ukraine surrendering
c) The EU being riven by internal splits
d) America being prepared to turn a blindish eye.

He has called every one of those wrong. He now knows that he can't attack anyone else militarily and gain more than he loses.

There is no outcome from here that isn't a huge defeat for Putin's strategic plans. The job now is to stop the bloodshed in a way that doesn't provoke him into risking bringing the whole world down.

[SydneyRover]

Wilts.

I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...


Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.

Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.

I believe you have missed my point. If Corbyn had been PM we wouldn't be here - it wouldn't have started.

Johnson was clearly part of Putin's foreign policy and his actions over the past few years have clearly played a part in this start of this invasion/war. How much or how knowingly I doubt we will know in our lifetime.

And a bit rich to be discussing how much of Ukraine to give away and then accuse someone else of giving 'catnip to aggressors'.

All this is known fact, is there any wonder that putin thought he was on safe ground doing whatever he pleased? As foreign secretary johnson openly blamed the EU for the Russian annexation of the Crimea ffs. All that followed was straight out of the Russian playbook.

''Back in 2009, Johnson was the newly elected mayor of London and Lebedev the son of a billionaire who had just bought the Evening Standard. The Standard was a stalwart supporter of Johnson, endorsing his 2012 reelection campaign. But the relationship between them was unusual for a politician and a newspaper proprietor.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/21/parties-politics-peerages-boris-johnson-evgeny-lebedev-friendship

''Johnson: £160k tennis match did take place''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43448559

''According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace; namely Russian interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum, and further to this, evidence was uncovered detailing alleged disinformation following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum''


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_British_politics#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Intelligence%20and,this%2C%20evidence%20was%20uncovered%20detailing

''Boris Johnson Allowed Russian Interference into the UK As Putin Prepared For War''

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/24/boris-johnson-allowed-russian-interference-into-the-uk-as-putin-prepared-for-war/

''Revealed: Russian donors have stepped up Tory funding''

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-russian-donors-have-stepped-tory-funding/

If we as a nation had done this to putin and russia there would be books written about it.

If this had happened under a labour government all those crying about not making this thread political would be screaming.

[drfchound]

Not really.
It more than likely would have all gone through without anyone mentioning it.

[mushRTID]

Video going round of Ukrainian soldiers (allegedly) shooting Russian POW in the knee caps. Brutal and not good at all.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Video going round of Ukrainian soldiers (allegedly) shooting Russian POW in the knee caps. Brutal and not good at all.

It's not good but it is understandable human nature to react that way when you see what's happening to your country.  These guys will be angry and in some cases they won't be nice people at all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's not understandable.

There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.

There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.

[scawsby steve]

It's not understandable.

There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.

There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.

Also, it strengthens Putin's insistence that the reason for the invasion is to liberate the people of the Donbas from the neo-nazi fascist Ukrainian leaders.

[SydneyRover]

Has it been authenticated by anyone?

[Colin C No.3]

It's not understandable.

There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.

There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.

And yet you say “Put me in a room with Putin, give me a gun & I would gladly shoot him dead”.

No trial then.

I’m not condoning harming POW’s in any way shape or form. Just reminding you that everyone has a ‘flash point’.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If that was the only way to stop him, of course I'd do that. He's Commander-in-Chief. He's a combatant. If the only way to eliminate him was an extra-judicial killing, of course I'd do that.

Better to have him incarcerated, but that is never going to happen. If he DID turn himself in and was no longer a threat, then he'd have all the rights of a PoW.

[albie]

Lads,

None of you is going to get the chance to have a crack at Vlad, so get back to the point.

If Russia now retreats to a position where Donbas and the Russian speaking areas become neutral, then what is the plan for the reconstruction?

Costs will be astronomical, and there is the difficulty of munitions and assault rifles distributed without recall.
These arms will in some part find a home with the ultra nationalist militias.

Cessation of military hostilities is paramount, but there has to be a strategy for after the conflict ends.

[Sprotyrover]

Knee cappings , is it the Infamous Azov Brigade? Huge mistake as this sort of stuff could change the attitude of the Russian Soldiery, and we all know what they can achieve when fighting for a worthwhile cause, they should have kept it as Brothers killing brothers, now it will be Brothers killing Nazis!

[wilts rover]

Wilts.

That is wishful thinking of a very high order. You really think that Corbyn as PM would have prevented Putin's attack on Ukraine?

The only ways that the attack could have been averted were.
1) If Putin had known his forces were going to get a proper kicking.
Or
2) If Ukraine had been forced by the West to accept a status as a Russian vassal state.

Which of those do you think Corbyn would have been able to facilitate?

Yes. As I have explained several times.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he believed the west, Europe, the US was divided, were willing to turn a blind eye to any military incurssions because they were beneffiting from Russian finance and oligarchs money in their economy - and some Western political parties were directly benefitting from Russian oligarchs money, his foreign political goal of dividing both US (Trump) and the EU (Brexit) was being realised, Russian medling in western domestic policies was beining ignored/covered-up and the chaotic retreat from Afghanistan showed him that the west were poorly organised organising a logistics campaign.

If Corbyn had won in 2019 - all of the above would have been different thus Putin would not be invading Ukraine. He would have had a better relationship with the EU, thus Europe would have been more united, the Afghan campaign would have been more humanitarian but more importantly he would have stopped London from being a haven for laundering Russian money (much of which is Putin's and none of which comes out of Russia without the agreement of Putin.

It's all guessing of course, but Putin attacked because he saw the world, especially Europe as divided. Under Corbyn it would have been less divided.

NATO has refused to intervene under Johnson - thus it can hardly have done less under Corbyn

NATO also trained Belorus Forces, some of which may have been deployed in Ukraine.

How Corbyn would have fared with this inavasion? He has always spoken of physically opposing fascism - is there any more of a demonstartion of fascism in action than bombing hospitals, shooting fleeing civilians and children in marked shelters. I think he would have provided exactly the same military support for Zelensky that Johnson has. The humanitarian response would have been far better.

[wilts rover]

Lads,

None of you is going to get the chance to have a crack at Vlad, so get back to the point.

If Russia now retreats to a position where Donbas and the Russian speaking areas become neutral, then what is the plan for the reconstruction?

Costs will be astronomical, and there is the difficulty of munitions and assault rifles distributed without recall.
These arms will in some part find a home with the ultra nationalist militias.

Cessation of military hostilities is paramount, but there has to be a strategy for after the conflict ends.

It should be led by Ukraine.

In no way should we/the west be telling Zelensky what Ukraine can and cannot do - thats why he is fighting Putin.