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Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 16, 2023, 04:34:43 pmQuote from: Filo on January 15, 2023, 07:54:56 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 15, 2023, 02:41:49 amQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water. And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine? Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?
Quote from: Filo on January 15, 2023, 07:54:56 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 15, 2023, 02:41:49 amQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water. And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine? Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 15, 2023, 02:41:49 amQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water. And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
Quote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
Quote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
I wonder just how much longer Putin has.Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
Quote from: normal rules on January 16, 2023, 07:59:24 pmI wonder just how much longer Putin has.Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?Arguable about the Russian economy.NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.The war is unlukely to last 2 years.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 16, 2023, 07:28:17 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 16, 2023, 04:34:43 pmQuote from: Filo on January 15, 2023, 07:54:56 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 15, 2023, 02:41:49 amQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water. And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine? Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?Minsk agreements
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 16, 2023, 04:34:43 pmQuote from: Filo on January 15, 2023, 07:54:56 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 15, 2023, 02:41:49 amQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 10:05:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 14, 2023, 09:47:29 pmQuote from: Filo on January 14, 2023, 08:15:36 pmThe Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it? The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of RussiaThere was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water. And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine? Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 17, 2023, 05:49:46 pmQuote from: normal rules on January 16, 2023, 07:59:24 pmI wonder just how much longer Putin has.Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?Arguable about the Russian economy.NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.The war is unlukely to last 2 years.How do you see it ending?
Right. I'm clearly REALLY struggling here so bear with me.The Minsk 2 negotiations were about trying to find a mutually acceptable solution to the previous Russian invasion of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk.While those negotiations were going on, Putin mobilised 200,000 soldiers and several thousand tanks. And recognised LPR and DPR as independent states. And ranted that Ukraine had no right to exist.Give me a minute cos I'm trying to get this next step...It was the UK's fault that the negotiations collapse and Russia launched a full invasion?Have I got that right? Only, it seems, like...f**king mad.
What do you think Johnson was instructed to say? "We'll be sending you all you need to beat the Ruskies, 100 billion should do it, just don't let on its a loan though. You can pay it back with land to us. "As soon as it was clear there'd be a backing out from Minsk, after Johnson's interjection. It was either invasion or leave the Donbas to right wing Ukraine troops to do their will and have NATO swanning in. You know that was unacceptable to the Russians, as did Johnson. Cue proxy war.
What's your take on the future there?
BRR.So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.
This is superb analysis of the utter disaster that Putin has led Russia into.https://www.ft.com/content/42367891-bde7-4770-95f4-460d0762215b?sharetype=blockedNo possible victory. Just different degrees of losses and a historic weakening of Russia for decades to come.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 17, 2023, 10:51:00 pmBRR.So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.The Russian military was sitting there. No agreement caused the invasion, instantly. Or maybe you were making some other point?
Putin to make a big announcement today apparently.
Quote from: mushRTID on January 18, 2023, 09:01:58 amPutin to make a big announcement today apparently.Probably extending the age range for conscription
Quote from: Filo on January 18, 2023, 11:58:46 amQuote from: mushRTID on January 18, 2023, 09:01:58 amPutin to make a big announcement today apparently.Probably extending the age range for conscriptionAnyone still alive who fought in WW11 to report to their nearest military base immediately……& bring a gun.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 18, 2023, 03:36:42 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 17, 2023, 10:51:00 pmBRR.So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.The Russian military was sitting there. No agreement caused the invasion, instantly. Or maybe you were making some other point?Oh! Silly me! Of course, the Russian army was just siting there! And Putin's illegal recognition of the independence of LPR and DPR was intended as a friendly gesture to Ukraine, rather than a "f**k you" to the Minsk 2 negotiations.And when Putin ranted that Ukraine had no historic right to exist, he was just joshing.It all makes sense now. I can't understand why I didn't see it before.
Quote from: ncRover on January 17, 2023, 05:56:31 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on January 17, 2023, 05:49:46 pmQuote from: normal rules on January 16, 2023, 07:59:24 pmI wonder just how much longer Putin has.Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?Arguable about the Russian economy.NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.The war is unlukely to last 2 years.How do you see it ending?I can't see NATO holding back Russia without upping the stakes much much further, and the cost of that will be immense.Tricky to say, but I think Russia will take at least half of old Ukraine. I can't see them wanting the North West parts but necessity may dictate that.I think there's likely to be some big battles over the Spring and Summer but with the troop and armour losses for Ukraine there is a point where they'll capitulate. Long term, it could be that NATO/US will fund smaller scale skirmishes and mini offences if there is any old Ukraine left. That would be a reason for Russia to take the lot?What's your take on the future there?
You haven't made a single point worth addressing. You just dribble out the Kremlin line unfiltered.You obsess over a handful of mistakes early in the war when Ukrainian front line forces hit civilian areas in Donbas with misdirected mortars, yet you haven't a word of condemnation for months and months of deliberate, prolonged Russian attacks on civilian targets hundreds of miles from the front. .You are so twisted by your obsession that NATO, the EU and the West in general are evil, that you cannot see the most egregious imperialistic war of aggression for what it is.You ignore the unquestionable evidence that Putin CHOSE this war because he thought it would result in a rapid victory and a step towards his Greater Russia dream.I respond to you simply to point out the stupidity of the stances that your ideology takes you to. I've no interest in debating with you.