The Labour Files

[MachoMadness]

A number of black MPs have spoken up about it now, not all hardcore Corbynites either.

Meanwhile Neil Coyle MP gets quietly readmitted to the party after downing 16 pints and racially abusing an Asian journalist in the Westminster lobby. Of course he's a factional ally of the mob currently running the party, I'm sure that's a coincidence though.

[SydneyRover]

corbyn would be welcomed back if he accepted reality

[BillyStubbsTears]

Don't know if I'm missing something obvious but that entire article that Albie posted seems to include just one up to date piece of news, where Forde says "My slight anxiety is that in terms of hierarchy, and genuine underlying concerns about wider racial issues, it’s not in my view a sufficient response to say that was then, this is now."

OK, that may be an issue to address, but even the author of the report doesn't seem to be screaming that there's an existential issue.

Anyone?

[tyke1962]

Did you complain about the racism under corbyn tyke? it was a lot worse then

Would that be the 0.3% of complaints that Corbyn acknowledged or the 30% that was put in the minds of the electorate to once again question his leadership ?

Truth is only 0% is acceptable by myself .

[SydneyRover]

That why he was chucked out cos he wouldn't acknowledge it

[tyke1962]

corbyn would be welcomed back if he accepted reality

You mean tow the party line don't you ?

You sell out merchants might think it's acceptable to gain power by not having any principles but that doesn't mean everyone is willing to do that .

[SydneyRover]

whatever tyke

[tyke1962]

That why he was chucked out cos he wouldn't acknowledge it

He was chucked out because the Labour Party wants to put as much distance between themselves and the left in order to present themselves as electable to government .

That was his real crime .

[SydneyRover]

Did you complain about the racism under corbyn tyke? it was a lot worse then

Would that be the 0.3% of complaints that Corbyn acknowledged or the 30% that was put in the minds of the electorate to once again question his leadership ?

Truth is only 0% is acceptable by myself .

You just buried corbyn with this tyke, would you like another shovel?

[tyke1962]

Did you complain about the racism under corbyn tyke? it was a lot worse then

Would that be the 0.3% of complaints that Corbyn acknowledged or the 30% that was put in the minds of the electorate to once again question his leadership ?

Truth is only 0% is acceptable by myself .

You just buried corbyn with this tyke, would you like another shovel?

I didn't bury Corbyn the likes of you did .

Seems to me you cry foul play when the Tory Press goes to work on things you agree with but are happy to play along with them when you don't .

I thinks there's a word for that which just about sums up the Labour centrists .

None the less I can do compromise , this man wasn't from the left but he understood the left .

You couldn't make one John Smith out of a thousand Keith's .


https://youtu.be/SAbzdA0XJuM

[drfchound]

The Guardian actually breaking the journo omerta! I'm genuinely shocked, but very little will happen.

It was obvious before, and it's obvious now. Rancid party I'm increasingly convinced is beyond saving.

It will no doubt be the left's fault which is the go to strategy when the heat is on the Labour Party centrists and the right .

We even get threatened a Tory government is our fault because we aren't exactly enthusiastic about voting Labour or we are admirers of Mogg , Farage and Johnson because we voted for Brexit even though their EU stance is aligned with Thatcher , Cameron and Osborne .

That's the mindset of these utterly deplorable characters if you don't tow the line .

I take one look at Keith and what he is and I'm almost choking on the vomit .

But it's better than the Tories .........

Wasn't Thatcher a remainer tyke?

[SydneyRover]

Did you complain about the racism under corbyn tyke? it was a lot worse then

Would that be the 0.3% of complaints that Corbyn acknowledged or the 30% that was put in the minds of the electorate to once again question his leadership ?

Truth is only 0% is acceptable by myself .

You just buried corbyn with this tyke, would you like another shovel?

I didn't bury Corbyn the likes of you did .

Seems to me you cry foul play when the Tory Press goes to work on things you agree with but are happy to play along with them when you don't .

I thinks there's a word for that which just about sums up the Labour centrists .

None the less I can do compromise , this man wasn't from the left but he understood the left .

You couldn't make one John Smith out of a thousand Keith's .


https://youtu.be/SAbzdA0XJuM

corbyn was master of his own destiny even after he gave the tories a massive win and he still can't accept reality

[tyke1962]

Did you complain about the racism under corbyn tyke? it was a lot worse then

Would that be the 0.3% of complaints that Corbyn acknowledged or the 30% that was put in the minds of the electorate to once again question his leadership ?

Truth is only 0% is acceptable by myself .

You just buried corbyn with this tyke, would you like another shovel?

I didn't bury Corbyn the likes of you did .

Seems to me you cry foul play when the Tory Press goes to work on things you agree with but are happy to play along with them when you don't .

I thinks there's a word for that which just about sums up the Labour centrists .

None the less I can do compromise , this man wasn't from the left but he understood the left .

You couldn't make one John Smith out of a thousand Keith's .


https://youtu.be/SAbzdA0XJuM

corbyn was master of his own destiny even after he gave the tories a massive win and he still can't accept reality

And still attained more votes in defeat that you lot can only dream about .

Keith will probably win the next election with 2 million less votes than Corbyn got .

No wonder you lot love FPTP , take that away and the electorate would put you in the political graveyard next to the Whigs .

[SydneyRover]

Please try to not change direction with each post tyke

[Branton Red]

corbyn was master of his own destiny even after he gave the tories a massive win and he still can't accept reality

Really?

Perhaps compare the Tory vote in 2019 versus 2017. (I'll help you here: It barely moved)

Consider the Labour vote in 2019 versus 2017. (Again I'll help you: it collapsed)

What was the difference in 2019 and 2017? (I'll just give you a hint here: It wasn't who was leading the Labour Party)

[SydneyRover]

My posts are connected to racism in the labor party and how corbyn reaction and and acted or didn't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

corbyn was master of his own destiny even after he gave the tories a massive win and he still can't accept reality

Really?

Perhaps compare the Tory vote in 2019 versus 2017. (I'll help you here: It barely moved)

Consider the Labour vote in 2019 versus 2017. (Again I'll help you: it collapsed)

What was the difference in 2019 and 2017? (I'll just give you a hint here: It wasn't who was leading the Labour Party)

Ah yes. That Brexit myth.

Labour was defeated in the 2019 election because they had a policy of Ref2.

THE most intellectually idle trope in modern politics.

1) Labour had a Ref2 policy.
2) Labour lost heavily.
Therefore 1) caused 2).

Totally ignored what happened to Labour's poll figures in early 2019 when Corbyn let his mask slip and came out in favour of Brexit.

Labour's poll figures slipped to below 20%. They lost 5 million supporters in 6 months.

All before Ref2 had been adopted as party policy.

After Ref2 WAS adopted, there was an abrupt rise in Labour support.

But let's not allow inconvenient facts to get in the way of a good polemic, eh Branton?

[Branton Red]

Billy

"in early 2019 when Corbyn let his mask slip and came out in favour of Brexit." An inconvenient fact?

Corbyn came out in favour of Brexit happening on the morning of 24th June 2016 when he stood in Parliament Square and told the nation that the result of the referendum should be respected and Article 50 should be triggered asap.

He remained in favour of Brexit happening throughout the 2017 General Election campaign consistently stating the referendum vote should be respected. And the Labour Party went with him on this - respecting the referendum vote was included in their 2017 Manifesto.

So for your above statement to be fact you need to show evidence please of both: -

1) Corbyn altering his view on Brexit from being in favour of it occurring to neutrality some point between the 2017 GE and early 2019
and then 2) Of him reversing back to being in favour of Brexit happening in early 2019.

I await with baited breath.

But fully expect the usual whataboutery and evasion.

[wilts rover]

More great myths of our time - A 2nd referendum would not have stopped Brexit happening - it would have confirmed the public's will that the Brexit deal was what they wanted.

Unless people (Brexiteers) are saying that the public had changed their minds and they would wish to reverse their first vote?

[Bentley Bullet]

But if a 2nd referendum had confirmed a Brexit majority you'd have still been a Remoaner so what would have been the point?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton.

If you really want to talk about this, I'll talk all day. But you're going to need to have done your homework. And since it's my youngest's birthday today, and this is an argument that takes a while to understand, bear with me while I do this in bits.

Here's the first part of my line.

1) Corbyn was always a militant supporter of Brexit. There's no doubt about that. He is and was a devoted Bennite. He WAS delighted on the morning after the vote as you say standing on Westminster Green at sparrowfart demanding Brexit there and then.

2) But he was part of a tiny minority among Labour MPs, members and voters.

3)So he usually had to keep his passionate support for Brexit under wraps. He did virtually nothing during the Brexit campaign, literally going on holiday at one point. The night before the vote, he was on a podcast by an obscure American far left organisation squirming as they quizzed him on why he had (nominally) supported Brexit. It was an excruciating thing to observe.

4) I'll Allie him his moment of letting his mask slip the morning after the vote. He'd achieved his and his dead Master's prime ambition. But then he had to start thinking about how to hold the party together. That required dissembling.

5) The Labour manifesto was a masterpiece of dissembling. It promised an end to Freedom of Movement as well as a deal that would retain the benefits of the SM and CU. Go and read it. It literally promises both those mutually incompatible things. It was like the Bible. You can take from it whatever message you want. And Labour voters did.

6) I said at the time it was a work of political genius. It effectively neutralised Brexit as an issue for Labour at that election.  But I also said it was a trick that could only be played once. It worked in 2017 because no-one knew what Brexit was going to look like. So it could promise things that couldn't be delivered together, and still sound plausible. I said all along that by the next Election, that deliberate ambiguity couldn't work - Labour would have to come down on one side or the other.

TBC.

[albie]

Back to the Labour Files, subject of this thread.

BST,

Your post 92 certainly does miss the point, by rather a large deflection.

The Guardian article was a comment upon the Aljazeera video with Martin Forde.
You can see it here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiODoWurA64

What is interesting is that the Guardian focuses only upon the unaddressed question of the "hierarchy of racism" that Forde identifies.
All well and good, but it fails to mention the confected anti-semitism narrative, which was actively promoted by the Guardian, and the Blue Labour right.

By doing so, it looks to preserve the rationale the legacy media used to undermine Corbyn, and avoid scrutiny of the role of the BBC in the fabrication of evidence to their discredited Panorama documentary.
Forde found some of the Panorama content to be "entirely misleading", yet the BBC asked that the report be amended to omit their duplicity.

You will remember that Keith rejected legal advice and chose to settle out of court with those claiming disadvantage from the "Labour Leaks".
Forde having supported the leakers in his report, the Labour Party is on very shaky ground to see this out.

Keith will now be in the firing line for costs when the court action against him is heard, the Information Commissioner having already found his case against the whistleblowers to be without merit.

[albie]

Syd,

Post after post and you still have not read the EHRC report, have you?

There is a letter to the Guardian from Geoffrey Bindman, KC, setting out the key points;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/23/attacks-on-your-editorial-about-the-ehrc-labour-and-antisemitism-are-baffling

Unlike Sir Geoffrey, I am not surprised by the selective reporting of the Guardian.
The final line from Sir Geoffrey is very much to the point, is it not?

[BillyStubbsTears]

7) The reason that ambiguity couldn't work again was that, as we got closer to actually leaving the EU, the reality of what Brexit entailed could no longer be hidden. You want to end freedom of movement? Fine. But that means you are definitively outside the SM and CU, and that means you cannot retain the benefits of membership of the SM and CU. Branton, YOU think that was obvious from 2016. It might have been to political obsessives like there and me, but it clearly wasn't to the majority of voters, or Labour would have been skewered in 2017.

8) By late 2018, the real choices required by different forms of Brexit were impossible to obscure. An study around that time indicated that almost 70% of the population wanted Brexit cancelled or for us to join the EEA (the latter, which was my position by the way, around twice as popular as the former). https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR2700/RR2785/RAND_RR2785.pdf

9) But that sort of Brexit wasn't on the agenda by late 2018. May's Govt was embroiled in internal schisms about just how hard a Brexit we were going to go for. It was a febrile atmosphere. A very hard Brexit, or, God forbid, No Deal, had never been openly discussed in 2016. Yet here we were, being driven towards that by the ERG and Johnson's own ego and ambition. Attitudes were hardening on all sides.

10) Corbyn had kept his head down on the topic since the 2017 election. He wanted the subject to go away, because he knew that HE wanted Brexit, but the overwhelming majority of his MPs, party members and voters didn't.

11) In this atmosphere, the LD policy of asking for a confirmatory referendum in the final Brexit deal, with the option to accept that deal or cancel Brexit, started to gain popularity on the left.  Corbyn was in danger of being outflanked, and made an aggressive re-entry into the issue at Xmas 2018. In an interview in the Guardian, he clearly stated that Brexit WOUKD go ahead under Labour.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

12) On the day of that article, Labour was at 39% in the polls. Within 5 months, Labour's poll average dropped to 25%. In some polls they were as low as 17%. In the June EU election, they polled 13%, their lowest in a national poll since before WWI.

13) Remember, throughout that time, Labour's clear, official policy was to embrace Brexit.

14) Where had Labour's supporters gone? Have a look.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election#/media/File%3AOpinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election.svg

The indication is Labour had haemorrhaged support to the Lads who had a clear policy at the time of supporting Ref2.

15) Labour finally chose Ref2 as its policy at the late September conference. Again, look at the poll numbers. Almost immediately, Labour's vote share rose and the LDs' shrank by an equal amount.

16) The idea that Starmer pushing for Ref2 lost Labour the 2019 GE is a myth, propagated by Brexit supporters and hard-line Corbynistas. It evaporates as soon as you look at the evidence. But I suspect it will be around for decades, because so few people really want to engage with evidence that contradicts what they want to be true.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Let me get this right. You post a link to an article to support your case. When I point out that said article doesn't support your case, you rubbish the article.

Let me know when you've decided what you want me to read and what you don't.

[albie]

BST,

As clearly explained, the position set out in the AJ video is the baseline.
The Guardian article is a selective commentary on that, disregarding the actions of the BBC in the fraudulent Panorama documentary.

The article is correct in the observation on the "hierarchy of racism", but negligent in failing to cover the other issues raised by Forde in the AJ documentary.

The article completely supports the racism point, despite your misunderstanding.
Please do try to follow a thread in order......it is illogical to comment on the article without having considered the video upon which it is based.

[SydneyRover]

Syd,

Post after post and you still have not read the EHRC report, have you?

There is a letter to the Guardian from Geoffrey Bindman, KC, setting out the key points;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/23/attacks-on-your-editorial-about-the-ehrc-labour-and-antisemitism-are-baffling

Unlike Sir Geoffrey, I am not surprised by the selective reporting of the Guardian.
The final line from Sir Geoffrey is very much to the point, is it not?

No I haven't and I haven't read the Forde report either Albie, have you? to my recollection you didn't challenge the summary I posted (forde report) which I thought you would have if you'd have been up to speed and disagreed. Looking at the racism that was allowed to fester under corbyn namely the antisemitism on which Starmer acted therefore I conclude that there is less racism now. As for MM muddying the waters with a racist being allowed back into the party, it was a lazy trope that was used not racism directed at a person due to colour, the MP was suspended and then later reinstated. There has been worse language used on these fora.

[albie]

Syd,

Yes, I have read the documents, including the original 850 page "Labour Leaks" which was what Forde was asked to examine.
The summary you posted is only a partial reflection, and misses key points and context.

With regard to anti-semitism, of 220 cases referred for consideration, only 2 were found to have substance.
This is in an organisation of over 500k members at the time. Both of those examples are contested, and will be resolved in the high court.

So not only was there very little evidence of AS, but Forde concluded that the Labour Leaders office under Corbyn made their best efforts to improve the party proceedures for handling complaints.

Forde does point up the different treatment given to other forms of racism within Labour, partly in consequence of the focus upon minimal AS found.

Syd, you wrote:
"Looking at the racism that was allowed to fester under corbyn namely the antisemitism on which Starmer acted therefore I conclude that there is less racism now."......what evidence is this comment based on, it is certainly NOT in the documents?

This is why the key finding of a "hierarchy of racism" is so important, and remains to be resolved.

[SydneyRover]

Thanks Albie, as said I haven't read either so it would be good if you could take the summary produced by the Guardian and show where each point was wring and where it was lacking.

[Branton Red]

Billy

I hope you and yours enjoyed your family celebrations yesterday.

That's a long response. I agree with some of your analysis, disagree with some whilst some is factually just plain wrong.

I don't have the time or inclination to give a line by line critique. And neither do I need to given you have omitted a major point which when brought into consideration renders your argument irrelevant and proves your conclusion to be wholly inaccurate.

That major point is how the First Past the Post General Election voting system in the UK works.

Had the EU referendum had been organized under FPTP Leave would have won by a landslide. Around 2/3rds of constituencies voted to leave (so c. a 1/3rd voted Remain).

Turning round such a landslide on a single issue is an insurmountable task.

Therefore from the moment Johnson was elected PM and decided to break the Parliamentary deadlock on Brexit via a General Election any opportunity to stop the UK leaving the EU was lost.

By campaigning on a Remain ticket and converting the Election into a de facto Leave/Remain rerun Labour sealed not only their defeat but also their annihilation at the ballot box. Before the election was even called.

As I've stated previously on this forum Labour's 2nd referendum policy really was the shortest suicide note in history.