I'm struggling...

[Glyn_Wigley]

Interesting little comparison in the current issue of Private Eye:

£8.5bn - UK Taxpayers' net contribution to EU budget in 2015.

£10.8bn - UK Taxpayers' loss on RBS and Lloyds shares since Brexit vote.

[Lipsy]

It's only money. What price taking your country back and taking it down the shitter in the process?

It's almost certainly only going to be the very poorest that get hurt the most - what's it matter, eh?

At least we can all be proud of our achievement.*



*For the absence of any doubt, I am being mightily sarcastic.

[RedJ]

Ah well, at least air is free to enjoy.

[BobG]

So how come you're such a Jeremiah these days then Rigo?

Cheers

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rigo

Some of us do things like run companies that, you know, provide people with jobs and the country with income.

Some of us are already seeing contracts that were lined up in the Spring now being delayed and the likelihood that we'll have to lay off well qualified, well motivated, hard working efficient staff.

Tell you what, dipshit. If and when we do, I'll give you a bell. When we hand out the P45s, you can come and tell them to put a smile on their faces because they might be dead tomorrow.

This isn't a f**king game. It's people's livelihoods.

[drfc1951]

What about the thousands of people who lost their jobs, and livelyihoods because of the EU rules and regulations.

[NickDRFC]

Rigoglioso - do you have a mortgage to pay? Or kids to feed and clothe? You can't just be so flippant as "oh well at least you're not dead" towards people who are facing all sorts of uncertainty at the moment. I'm lucky enough that my job is extremely unlikely to be affected, and even if it was I'd be able to find another similar job. It doesn't stop me having empathy for those who aren't in such a fortunate position.

[i_ateallthepies]

What about the thousands of people who lost their jobs, and livelyihoods because of the EU rules and regulations.

WOW!!  That's a new one on me.  Can you list ANY EU rules and regulations that have led to thousands losing their jobs and livelihoods?

Now, I can't provide well researched  examples of why Brexit is a disaster in the same way others on here have done but here is one example that anyone of my generation can surely fathom.

How many cars did the average working class family have 45 years ago, before we joined the EU?, here's a clue - the term 'family car' was common parlance back then.

How many televisions did a family have, 2?, 3?, 4?, no almost certainly just the one.  And had they been around at the time, how much of your wage was left over to throw at X-boxes and fancy mobile phones, laptops and the like.  Almost everybody has these things now.  We are vastly better off after 40 years in the EU so don't tell me how much better leaving might be when everything we actually know points to the opposite.

[drfc1951]

What about the thousands of jobs lost in the fishing industry for a start

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rigo

Your ignorance is spellbinding.

Of COURSE no f**ker knows what's going to happen in the medium term. Which is precisely why we can predict what is going to happen in the short term.

When there is huge economic uncertainty, companies hang onto their money. They don't invest it in R&D and in pushing new capability and products. Because they have no idea what the market conditions are.

But if companies hoard their money, it doesn't get spent in the economy. So other companies lose work. Domino effect.

Result: sudden and big slowdown in economic activity. For which, read, "perfectly competent and viable companies going out of business, staff being laid off and the whole country unnecessarily poorer."

This is precisely what is happening with my company already. We had projects lined up where big blue-chip companies were investing in R&D that we do to help them develop new products. And that investment has been put on hold. And as a result, we are clinging on by our fingernails.

Now, if you've actually got anything to add to this discussion beyond vacuous teenage-level inanities, feel free to contribute. Otherwise, shut the f**k up and let the grown ups get on with sorting out the mess that you have made.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rigo

You utter f**king idiot. Total refusal to engage with facts and causal arguments.

It's not about my idea of a "perfect country" you clown. It's about how f**king economies work. You trot out these vacuous nothings about no-one knowing what the effect will be. And I'm TELLING you what the effect already is. We're tipping into at least 2 years of significantly reduced economic performance. Something like £100bn of lost output. There's not a single serious economist doubting that.

And I, personally, can see that happening already to my company.

It's not about winning arguments and throwing smug, ignorant barbs at the other side. This is about real people with real lives and real families.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What about the thousands of jobs lost in the fishing industry for a start

You were asked for the EU rules and regulations that caused job losses, not for a nebulous 'what about?'.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Rigo

You utter f**king idiot. Total refusal to engage with facts and causal arguments.

It's not about my idea of a "perfect country" you clown. It's about how f**king economies work. You trot out these vacuous nothings about no-one knowing what the effect will be. And I'm TELLING you what the effect already is. We're tipping into at least 2 years of significantly reduced economic performance. Something like £100bn of lost output. There's not a single serious economist doubting that.

And I, personally, can see that happening already to my company.

It's not about winning arguments and throwing smug, ignorant barbs at the other side. This is about real people with real lives and real families.

If you're so intelligent and can see into the future, why don't you become a politician, join a party, and go for leadership.

You're so certain of how things are going to materialise, you'd surely make an awesome Prime Minister.

Or, in reality, are you just another person with an opinion - only one which likes to shove political opinions down others' throats until they either agree with you, stop listening, or vote the opposite way?

Much better than being smug and saying 'suck it up' to anyone with genuine concerns, whilst at the same time professing ignorance about what is happening, I'd have thought.

[MachoMadness]

The fact is that you, and other Norris Cole-type busy bas**rds with too much time on their hands who go out door-knocking, inadvertently have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

This isn't relevant to the discussion, but since you're determined to avoid that altogether anyway, that's not at all what canvassing is. It's about meeting supporters, putting your case across to the undecided and identifying voters. It's not about picking on people who don't agree and chiding them for hours until you wear them down.

I suspect you know this, but I suspect you know a lot of the things you've been told in this thread which is why you only ever respond with vacuous, empty fortune-cookie phrases about air. You have nothing to say but you say it loudly and often.

You've been presented with FACTS - with things that ARE happening now. Your non-argument that no one knows what will happen doesn't fly.

[Glyn_Wigley]

If you find reality scary, that's your look out. It's what you voted for.

[wesisback]

There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?

[nice one rovers]

I am embarrassed and ashamed to be English since that abomination happened last week.
Neither myself , my wife or kids aged 20 and 23 have ever been so devastated by a vote.
We have evil in our midst now, wrecking and spoiling things. Racism and xenophobia are ok. Ignorance rules. Oswald Moseley couldn't do this in the thirties, and the NF couldn't in the 70s, but we have just seen a nasty right wing uprising, whipped up by a Nazi and an ambitious Etonian.
I will fight this for as long as I live, so keep on 'banging on ' BST.

My thoughts entirely. Worrying times.

[Lipsy]

And once again this scene pops into my head.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6EQ5gv7g" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6EQ5gv7g</a>

[Bentley Bullet]

Lipsy

Is that a portrayal of the conned leave voters' ignorance regarding the sinking ship that is now the UK, or is it one of the remain voters' who refute the opinion that the UK is a sinking ship that  continues to take more people on board?

Just unsure what side of the argument that clip is supposed to ridicule, that's all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Imagine a pilot of an airliner seeing a violent thunderstorm ahead, the intensity of which he has never seen. He's no idea whether his aircraft is structurally capable of coping with the stresses that the extreme air currents in the storm might produce. In fact, several of his more gung-ho colleague have been telling him to ignore the "experts" who advise him to steer clear of such scenarios, because, "we're all fed up of listening to experts."

He reckons that taking a direct line through the storm might, possibly (although, who knows?) give him a shorter route back.

Should he fly straight on through the storm and judge at the end of it whether he made the right decision?

And if his plane breaks up in the thunderstorm, as he's falling 35,000 feet, should he keep his chin up and tell himself, "Ah well. We'll all be dead someday"?

Give me f**king strength.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?

Keep on fishing Wes. You'll be as good as Rigo at it one day.

And this, from someone who threw a strop and threatened to tear up his shiny new Labour Party membership card if the PLP invoke an entirely correct formal process, and who is firing off threats left right and centre on Twitter to democratically elected MPs. Consistency never has been your strong point spadger, has it?

[Bentley Bullet]

BST

What if the captain decided to put it to a vote, and asked the passengers to decide?

[Lipsy]

BB,

I am firmly of the opinion that the country is going to Hell in a handcart, and no-one on the 'Leave' side of the argument on here or anywhere else has come up with anything concrete to sway my opinion on that. In fact, most of the Leavers I have spoken to mutter variations of "We're not coming out of the EU" or "We'll be fine. We were once a great nation" - nothing much beyond blind faith or bloody-mindedness as far as I can make out. Similarly, our 'great' politicians have frigged off like spineless fecks, presumably hoping that someone else cleans up the mess. As such, I don't really see any grounds for optimism at the moment.

That being said, I wasn't offering that clip to take the piss out of any side, tbh. It just came to mind.

[wesisback]

There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?

Keep on fishing Wes. You'll be as good as Rigo at it one day.

And this, from someone who threw a strop and threatened to tear up his shiny new Labour Party membership card if the PLP invoke an entirely correct formal process, and who is firing off threats left right and centre on Twitter to democratically elected MPs. Consistency never has been your strong point spadger, has it?

That's my Labour to you Billy. Yours is dead.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bentley

Excellent point. That gets right to the heart of it.

Although Wesley and Rigo seem oblivious of this, democracy is about far more than placing a vote, washing your hands and saying "That's that."

It's about awareness of the consequences. When you win a vote, you have a responsibility to deal with the consequences. To be aware of them and to learn from them. Not just to say, "Nah, nah! f**k you, WE won."

[Bentley Bullet]

Lipsy

So what do we do then?  Where do we go from here? Do we cancel the vote? Do we have a second referendum? Then a third if the vote goes 1-1, to make it a best of three scenario?

Or do we continue to divide the country into two, calling one half thick, and the other half (the slightly smaller one) supercilious?

Or do we just get on with it?

[Lipsy]

BB,

We get on with it because we have no choice. However, those of us that are angry about the result and its consequences will continue to grieve and moan like f**k whilst we're working it through our systems. That's also our democratic right.

[RedJ]

Thing is, if leave hadn't won, Farage basically said that he'd keep pushing for another referendum until he won. Yet apparently remain voters are spitting the dummy out - would it be seen differently had the shoe been on the other foot?

[MachoMadness]

I think Lipsy's Ian Hislop video posted the other day sums it up quite succinctly, but -

When the Leave campaign have not only backtracked on every promise they made during the campaign AND all the politicians pushing for Leave have all f**ked off because they don't want to lead us through the consequences of the vote, in addition to the financial impact being felt by many (me included working in the arts) people are right to keep having this discussion. Not just in parliament, but on TV, on the streets, on Facebook and on fourth-tier football forums among others. Just asking people to pipe down and get on with it doesn't help anything.

[Lipsy]

RedJ,

That's an argument that I have some sympathy with, mainly because the spineless toad said 52-48 to stay wouldn't be an acceptable result. However, we can't carry on chuffing about (best out of three?) until one side gets the result it wants. What I would say is that IF there was a massive change in opinion over the result then there is an argument that we should have another referendum OR let parliament debate and vote on our future in or out of the EU.

I don't really see that happening, to be honest.