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Belton.I gave you four examples where unarguably you had misrepresented what I said when we last spoke.YOU initiated the conversation this time. And in the next couple of posts, you entirely ignored the core point of the discussion and chose to misrepresent me twice again. The second one being you bizarrely concluding that I claimed to know what was happening with the virus in China back in January, because in August I posted an article from March which discussed China in January.And then you have a rant about MY approach to debate!Goodnight.
I have only ever seen one tv programme recorded live. It was an episode of the Mary Whitehouse Experience.In it they had a sketch where two cantakerous old geezers are slagging one another off and arguing about nothing.Funny how I have just been reminded of that.
Belton.Here's a précis of this exchange.I gave a list of the large number of U-turns which this Govt has engaged in, including the latest in which, in the space of 8 hours, Govt policy changed from "Science says no masks in school" to "If the science changes we might review that" to "the science has changed".You felt the need to contend that and say that you can't expect Govt to get every decision right, which is fine. Your absolute right to do so.I pointed out that on the very biggest issue, it is in my opinion, unequivocally true that the Govt got it badly wrong, and that I just don't understand why anyone would not be critical of the Govt on that.You asked me who I meant.I suggested you look through posts on this Forum because there are plenty of examples.You asked me if I specifically meant you because you don't consider that to be a fair painting of you.I quoted your own words where you said that it was only with hindsight that we could see the Govt had got anything wrong. I pointed out that was incorrect, because many, many people at the time were screaming out that they had made a desperately wrong decision. I gave an example of the editor of one of the world's most respected medical journals saying so at the time.You dismissed his opinion and then bizarrely suggested I was claiming to know the right answer back in January. [1]I pointed out that was a ridiculous misrepresentation of what I'd said.You accused me of having an antagonistic approach to discussion.If that general summary is wrong, feel free to point out where.[1] However you look at it, it is unarguable that China responded in January to the initial outbreak with an unprecedented social lockdown. Whether you accept that that worked or not is irrelevant. The fact is it happened. And medical experts and Governments all over the world were watching that avidly and trying to learn the lessons. So that, when the epidemic hit Europe, countries followed with lockdowns of their own. We had the chance to learn from both China and the first European countries to lock down. But we chose, alone in the world apart from Sweden, to follow a herd immunity policy. Even when the consequences of that were becoming clear. That choice has resulted in at least 30,000 avoidable deaths. That is the point I've been trying to make. Your response has been to entirely ignore that argument, refuse to engage with that as a discussion, and instead throw out personal insults.
That's a bit too close?''Nottinghamshire woman, 75, may be first known UK Covid victimScientific analysis suggests coronavirus was spreading in UK weeks earlier than thought''Their study said this was undetected at the time because the government was restrictive both in its definition of coronavirus symptoms, and over who could be tested.Prof Jonathan Ball, one of the authors of the study, said: “Had the diagnostic criteria for Covid-19 been widened earlier to include patients with compatible symptoms but no travel history, it is likely that earlier imported infections would have been detected, which could have led to an earlier lockdown and lower deaths.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/25/nottinghamshire-woman-75-may-be-first-known-uk-covid-victim
Getting a bit embarrassing now isn't it?This morning: Alok Sharma wheeled out on R4 to say that the Govt is following the science by not requiring kids in schools to wear masks.This lunchtime, Johnson says of course that may change if the scientific advice changes.This evening...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53907035This isn't Government. This is responding to whatever is in the f**king headlines. How many times now, in just 8 months, has the Government insisted it is doing the correct thing, then changed 180degrees in a few days or hours?Herd immunity. We weren't going to have a big lockdown. Until we did.No customs checks between GB and NI.Health cover for foreign key workers.Reopening primary schools in JuneWorld leading TTI by 1 JuneFree school meals over the summer.Exam resultsMasks in school.And those are just the ones off the top of my head. That's more big u-turns in 3-4 months than you'd expect from an entire Govt term. It's shambolic. And it's more than just appearances. It comes from desperately wanting to appear strong and resolute, but not actually getting the policies right at the start. So how do you now trust anything this Govt firmly announces when you know it's a 50/50 shot that they'll flip to the exact opposite in a day or two?
Hancock insisting that there was no herd immunity strategy;https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/up-50000-unnecessary-deaths-uk-22600532Now that we know any resistance to re-infection is variable, and may reduce over time, the 50k excess deaths looks a high price to pay for a strategy he didn't have!Hancock needs to read his Dominic Cummings if he wants to know the truth.He doesn't want to know, does he?
Belton,Hancock has been saying this for a long time;https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirusIt has been covered before in this thread, so I thought no need to repeat.The overview of the Government position from earlier in the year is a reminder, if things have slipped your mind;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisisSometimes it can be difficult to keep up with what has gone before.
Quote from: albie on August 30, 2020, 03:27:48 pmBelton,Hancock has been saying this for a long time;https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirusIt has been covered before in this thread, so I thought no need to repeat.The overview of the Government position from earlier in the year is a reminder, if things have slipped your mind;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisisSometimes it can be difficult to keep up with what has gone before.Albie.I didn’t say he hadn’t said it. I said the link you used to support your opening statement wasn’t Hancock saying anything at all.This is what happens when people start throwing around links willy nilly under the guise of ‘evidence’. It kind of makes a farce of this whole linking process. But, if that’s what the hierarchy want...
Quote from: belton rover on August 30, 2020, 03:45:53 pmQuote from: albie on August 30, 2020, 03:27:48 pmBelton,Hancock has been saying this for a long time;https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirusIt has been covered before in this thread, so I thought no need to repeat.The overview of the Government position from earlier in the year is a reminder, if things have slipped your mind;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisisSometimes it can be difficult to keep up with what has gone before.Albie.I didn’t say he hadn’t said it. I said the link you used to support your opening statement wasn’t Hancock saying anything at all.This is what happens when people start throwing around links willy nilly under the guise of ‘evidence’. It kind of makes a farce of this whole linking process. But, if that’s what the hierarchy want...I disagree Belton - that is exactly why you should provide a link if you are attempting to state a fact - because then people can check if it is true or not. If it's not, then you are correct to point it out.I get paid for doing it. Sometimes people don't like what I tell them but I am afraid evidence is a fact and a fact Quote from: wilts rover on August 30, 2020, 06:01:39 pmQuote from: belton rover on August 30, 2020, 03:45:53 pmQuote from: albie on August 30, 2020, 03:27:48 pmBelton,Hancock has been saying this for a long time;https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirusIt has been covered before in this thread, so I thought no need to repeat.The overview of the Government position from earlier in the year is a reminder, if things have slipped your mind;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisisSometimes it can be difficult to keep up with what has gone before.Albie.I didn’t say he hadn’t said it. I said the link you used to support your opening statement wasn’t Hancock saying anything at all.This is what happens when people start throwing around links willy nilly under the guise of ‘evidence’. It kind of makes a farce of this whole linking process. But, if that’s what the hierarchy want...I disagree Belton - that is exactly why you should provide a link if you are attempting to state a fact - because then people can check if it is true or not. If it's not, then you are correct to point it out.I get paid for doing it. Sometimes people don't like what I tell them but I am afraid evidence is a fact and a fact is evidence.I wouldn’t question your expertise, Wilts, but not everyone gets paid to spot these errors, and I’m certain that almost nobody else on here is qualified in this way. Are you suggesting that it’s better to post a link that is full of b*llocks, hoping no one notices than not to post a link at all?
Quote from: belton rover on August 30, 2020, 03:45:53 pmQuote from: albie on August 30, 2020, 03:27:48 pmBelton,Hancock has been saying this for a long time;https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirusIt has been covered before in this thread, so I thought no need to repeat.The overview of the Government position from earlier in the year is a reminder, if things have slipped your mind;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisisSometimes it can be difficult to keep up with what has gone before.Albie.I didn’t say he hadn’t said it. I said the link you used to support your opening statement wasn’t Hancock saying anything at all.This is what happens when people start throwing around links willy nilly under the guise of ‘evidence’. It kind of makes a farce of this whole linking process. But, if that’s what the hierarchy want...I disagree Belton - that is exactly why you should provide a link if you are attempting to state a fact - because then people can check if it is true or not. If it's not, then you are correct to point it out.I get paid for doing it. Sometimes people don't like what I tell them but I am afraid evidence is a fact and a fact is evidence.
on a number of ocassions now when visiting our local shops, the number of younger ie late teens early twenties who swan about with no face coverings in the shops and the look of "don't you dare say anything to me" is astounding. Obviously that age group think they are immune or just don't give a f#@k
Quote from: ravenrover on August 30, 2020, 03:39:58 pmon a number of ocassions now when visiting our local shops, the number of younger ie late teens early twenties who swan about with no face coverings in the shops and the look of "don't you dare say anything to me" is astounding. Obviously that age group think they are immune or just don't give a f#@kNo, they would probably blame the NHS.Would they give a f**k if they infected their parents of grandparents?
Hound, probably not.
I wouldn’t question your expertise, Wilts, but not everyone gets paid to spot these errors, and I’m certain that almost nobody else on here is qualified in this way. Are you suggesting that it’s better to post a link that is full of b*llocks, hoping no one notices than not to post a link at all?