Taking a knee

[phil old leake]

Who’s supporting bigotry

I’m definitely not

[belton rover]

I really worry that our society is becoming a place where differences of opinion are not respected. A healthy debate is all well and good, but it seems there has to be a winner; the other side must be proved wrong. Whether it’s taking a knee, Brexit, or which end to eat a boiled egg from, discussions and debate is becoming an unpleasant experience.
A different topic, but after very careful consideration, I voted to leave the EU, and I was torn pretty much by the ratio of 52/48 that happened to be the final result. I have been labelled an ignorant, racist, Daily Mail reader (of which I’m none of these, by the way). I chose a long time ago not to discuss my vote on Brexit because of this.
I don’t want to speak for Scunny, but he seems to have an issue with the BLM organisation - you know, the one that wants to defund the police among other things. I have major concerns with this too - it’s a frightening thought.
Just because someone doesn’t support the Black Lives Matter movement, doesn’t mean that they think black lives don’t matter. The two things are very different, which is why, I think, not everyone is comfortable ‘taking the knee’.

[IDM]

And that is all fair enough.. but it’s the suggestion of doing something else, to counter or even to mock, which I find distasteful.

And there are extremes on either side of the coin - I would think most fair minded people do not support the BLM movement “de fund the police” thinking, but at the same time abhor racism.

[MachoMadness]

Again, though, defund the police is a 3-word slogan to get people's attention. If people are that worried by it, they should probably read up on it more.

Firstly, "defund the police" is largely an American thing, and it refers to getting rid of the militarised police who go around shooting people, teargassing peaceful protestors, and crippling people because they're dangerous psychopaths in uniform. Thankfully, this is less of an issue over here, but we do still have our share of racist thugs in uniform who are enabled by the system. That's why you'll see a few British voices joining in, but rarely without the caveat mentioned below.

Over here, it's more about putting funding to better use in society. Mental health services, social care, youth clubs, support for families and those in extreme poverty etc. Every bit of research you'll find shows this is how you really tackle violent crime. You don't send the police out pulling over random black people in nice cars and locking people up for relatively minor things that they could easily be rehabbed from. It's what worked in Glasgow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

One interesting note about Glasgow - back when it was the murder capital of Europe, it was never viewed as a white problem, or a Scottish problem. We never had pretend concern in the media about how white kids were killing each other. No prizes for guessing why. That's a separate debate, though.

Ultimately, the slogan might well be frightening, but your fears are unfounded. Sadly, what many black people are frightened of is being beaten up, unfairly arrested and having their lives destroyed, or even killed by police. That's the case in this country too, even though police killings are much rarer than they are in the states. If confronting that by kneeling makes a few people uncomfortable, that's a price worth paying in my book. If it means a few people get a gobful because they chose not to show solidarity when it would've cost them nothing, that's a price worth paying as well.

[phil old leake]

Macho your second paragraph sums it up for me

When are people going to remember WE ARE NOT AMERICAN

we live in a generally very good place with opportunity for all. Generally a very tolerant and welcoming country

The police in this country are not like they are in the USA

Obviously there are bad ones but that’s not a reason to down cry them all as racist fascists

Shall we oust the Labour Party and everyone in it because of a few racist anti Semitic bigots

You could go on and on

What people need to remember is that a lot of what is shown on TV and social media could be edited to suit the purpose of the person reporting or posting

People seem very quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts

[belton rover]

Again, this is a big part of the problem. Too many people have the attitude that a difference of opinion is born from ignorance.

[belton rover]

Oh and thanks for the capital letters Phil, I was just about to have waffles and root beer for my breakfast.

Just on the American thing. One of the faces and voices of the BLM protests/riots in this country, a young, well spoken, clearly well educated black woman, said she she woke up every morning fearing that she would be murdered by  the police.

[SydneyRover]

No we are not American but we have plenty of work to do .............

Black people ‘40 times more likely’ to be stopped and searched in UK
Campaigners say controversial new powers are doing untold damage to communities’ trust

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/may/04/stop-and-search-new-row-racial-bias

Lack of BAME councillors 'perpetuating racial inequality and disadvantage' in the UK, says report
Campaigners say the findings are a "wake-up call" and that "communities feel like these institutions don't belong to us".

https://news.sky.com/story/lack-of-bame-councillors-perpetuating-racial-inequality-and-disadvantage-in-the-uk-says-report-12022993

Universities are still leaving BAME students behind – and the problem goes beyond Oxbridge
As Britain is forced to reassess the frameworks that have hitherto been taken for granted, universities must take stock. Moving towards a new future rests on a commitment to leave no one behind

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/universities-bame-students-inequality-oxbridge-race-a8837771.html

[IDM]

Macho your second paragraph sums it up for me

When are people going to remember WE ARE NOT AMERICAN

we live in a generally very good place with opportunity for all. Generally a very tolerant and welcoming country

The police in this country are not like they are in the USA

Obviously there are bad ones but that’s not a reason to down cry them all as racist fascists

Shall we oust the Labour Party and everyone in it because of a few racist anti Semitic bigots

You could go on and on

What people need to remember is that a lot of what is shown on TV and social media could be edited to suit the purpose of the person reporting or posting

People seem very quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts

So why do black people driving expensive cars get stopped more frequently than they should.?

[StocktonRover]

Macho your second paragraph sums it up for me

When are people going to remember WE ARE NOT AMERICAN

we live in a generally very good place with opportunity for all. Generally a very tolerant and welcoming country

The police in this country are not like they are in the USA

Obviously there are bad ones but that’s not a reason to down cry them all as racist fascists

Shall we oust the Labour Party and everyone in it because of a few racist anti Semitic bigots

You could go on and on

What people need to remember is that a lot of what is shown on TV and social media could be edited to suit the purpose of the person reporting or posting

People seem very quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts

So why do black people driving expensive cars get stopped more frequently than they should.?

It's easy to say that without having any evidence to substantiate it.

How many young white people get stopped for the same reason but without the BLM stigma it isn't newsworthy.

A factor could be that most stops are initiated by a registration number being picked up on an ANPR camera that has a "flag" against it.
The flags can be for a number of reasons such as outstanding warrants or fines, known drug dealer or prolific burglar, etc.

A better measure would be what percentage of BAME and non BAME people who get stopped are charged with an offence?

[SydneyRover]

''RACIAL PROFILING' Seven in 10 pulled over for ‘drug driving’ are BAME background and most haven’t committed crime after sprinter’s fury''

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12128163/seven-10-pulled-over-drug-driving-bame-background-london/

''Black people over 9 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched
Peter Keeling, CJA Policy Officer - 26 October 2018''

http://criminaljusticealliance.org/blog/black-people-9-times-likely-white-people-stopped-searched/

[IDM]

I’m talking about the MP who was stopped on Sunday.  The police stopped her and her partner because they incorrectly entered the reg number and they thought the car was registered in North Yorkshire.

Two points spring to mind immediately.  What is wrong with a car registered in one part of the country being seen elsewhere, and why did they decide to search this registration number in the first place.?

Yes that’s only anecdotal rather than a statistical analysis, but it’s also very wrong in my book.

[turnbull for england]

We said same last night , there has to be another reason for car getting pulled / checked  in first place, because I'm fairly confident it's not illegal to visit a different part of country. If it was dodgy driving or a light out they would have said so doesn't leave much to imagination as to why they got pulled.
 

[Filo]

I’m talking about the MP who was stopped on Sunday.  The police stopped her and her partner because they incorrectly entered the reg number and they thought the car was registered in North Yorkshire.

Two points spring to mind immediately.  What is wrong with a car registered in one part of the country being seen elsewhere, and why did they decide to search this registration number in the first place.?

Yes that’s only anecdotal rather than a statistical analysis, but it’s also very wrong in my book.

Imagine a car with a registration linked to a London address being seen in Barnard Castle 🤪

[Not Now Kato]

Macho your second paragraph sums it up for me

When are people going to remember WE ARE NOT AMERICAN

we live in a generally very good place with opportunity for all. Generally a very tolerant and welcoming country

The police in this country are not like they are in the USA

Obviously there are bad ones but that’s not a reason to down cry them all as racist fascists

Shall we oust the Labour Party and everyone in it because of a few racist anti Semitic bigots

You could go on and on

What people need to remember is that a lot of what is shown on TV and social media could be edited to suit the purpose of the person reporting or posting

People seem very quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts

Actually Phil, we are becoming more 'American' and less 'European' by the day.  Our shopping habits, our eating habits, our politics, our policing, (you saw far less riot gear during the miners strike than you do for a 'peaceful protest' in London nowadays, our prejudices being driven by a right wing media and by people like Johnson and Farage  - all moving in the American direction.
 
So yes, we're not American; but we're not far off.

[drfchound]

We said same last night , there has to be another reason for car getting pulled / checked  in first place, because I'm fairly confident it's not illegal to visit a different part of country. If it was dodgy driving or a light out they would have said so doesn't leave much to imagination as to why they got pulled.

It might have been that the reg number that was accidentally typed in turned out to be of interest to the police.
Or that the wrong number showed up as being on a different car.
Earlier this year my wife got a traffic ticket from Glasgow Council for driving her car into a bus and taxi only zone.
She has never driven in Glasgow and at the time of the alleged offence, was at home recovering from  a hip replacement.
The photo they supplied was her reg plate but on a totally different make of car to hers.

[phil old leake]

Hound it wouldn’t be anything like that. Remember every police man in the uk is a racist facist  bigot with nothing better to do than hound totally innocent people

[wilts rover]

Hound it wouldn’t be anything like that. Remember every police man in the uk is a racist facist  bigot with nothing better to do than hound totally innocent people

No Phil of course they are not - except the ones that are

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-far-right-a4494071.html

[drfchound]

Hound it wouldn’t be anything like that. Remember every police man in the uk is a racist facist  bigot with nothing better to do than hound totally innocent people

No Phil of course they are not - except the ones that are

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-far-right-a4494071.html

Mmmm, so that is one then.

[phil old leake]

That’s it then point proven. I apologise
All cops are bad

[Herbert Anchovy]

There’s been accusations that the Uk is becoming more ‘Americanised’ for decades. From my own point of view I don’t think this is the case outside of London, however there are parts of the capital that could be compared with some cities in the US. I rarely venture into South London if I can help it but when I do i can see how some could compare it to some districts of New York.

[wilts rover]

2019 survey.

19% of people think that some people are more intelligent than others because of their race
38% of people think that some people work harder than others because of their race

(this does of course mean that 81% and 62% dont think that) but trying to downplay what a significant minority of British think - and therefore how they might act - is foolish

https://theconversation.com/how-racist-is-britain-today-what-the-evidence-tells-us-141657

[SydneyRover]

That’s it then point proven. I apologise
All cops are bad

Are you posting this because you haven't got an argument Phil? is this your defence. You know well no one is saying that but their is plenty of evidence of racial bias against the police and it's been posted on this thread.

[Axholme Lion]

So what do they want then?
Pull over more white folk just to even up the score?
Maybe there are lots more blacks in parts of London than whites?
Maybe, just maybe more young black men are involved in crime in these areas.
As far as I am aware I don't think the Police need any reason to pull over any vehicle.
I was pulled over once pushing a motorbike along the road in Bradford with no motorcycle gear, helmet etc. I was asked who I was, did I own the bike and proof of ID. I didn't get the hump on with the bobbie as I just saw it as him being thorough and preventing a potential theft. It could have been someone nicking my bike.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

I utterly give up.

Read your post again and engage brain.

YOU were pulled up because you were committing an offence. The whole point about this discussion is that  black people are  overwhelmingly more likely than whites to be pulled up when they HAVEN'T committed an offence.

[selby]

  Is that because statistically they are more likely to have committed a crime Billy?

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

I utterly give up.

Read your post again and engage brain.

YOU were pulled up because you were committing an offence. The whole point about this discussion is that  black people are  overwhelmingly more likely than whites to be pulled up when they HAVEN'T committed an offence.

I wasn't committing an offence. I was pushing a motorcycle along the road. It was a non runner at the time. However as I had no crash helmet etc at the time with me, it did look a bit dodgy. It was taxed, tested and insured and I think the police did the correct thing in verifying my identity and ownership. I could have been in the act of stealing it but the actions of the policeman prevented what he thought could have been an offence taking place. I am all for it as this is what we pay the police to do.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Apologies AL, I missed the word "pushing" while skim reading. Fair to say that you were displaying unusual behaviour which perhaps warranted police attention? Again, the point being that blacks are more frequently pulled over when there is no genuine evidence of suspicious behaviour.

[Axholme Lion]

Apologies AL, I missed the word "pushing" while skim reading. Fair to say that you were displaying unusual behaviour which perhaps warranted police attention? Again, the point being that blacks are more frequently pulled over when there is no genuine evidence of suspicious behaviour.

No problem. I just think the demographic of some cities makes it more likely that certain groups will be pulled up. If this was happening in somewhere like Donny then I would agree it would be strange but certain areas of London have a  vastly different racial mix to say here or Hereford or Exeter for example.
I understand that most black people are like us and just want to get on with their lives, so it really is a shame that the activities of some of their community cause this to happen. Not all Police are bad, not all black people are up to no good. But we can not have a situation where the Police are afraid to pull some one over for a word for fear of being involved in a race row.

[selby]

I used to get stopped on a regular basis because I used to leave for work in the very early hours of the morning, mostly out in the countryside.
  No problem and used to feel assured by it really, one time I was coming back from Crewe when they put a load (8) past us. conversation went where have you been? Crewe and we got hammered and I am not happy, well you had better get yourself off to bed then.
  Had a number plate cloned and received six parking fines all for the Plymouth Magistrates court car park, must have been a judge or an habituel attender.
  Used to see loads of lampers and scroats buzzing about, on the A19 between Selby and Askern.