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Author Topic: No Brexit Extension  (Read 1664 times)

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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #60 on May 21, 2020, 11:44:10 AM by BillyStubbsTears »
A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.

SydneyRover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #61 on May 21, 2020, 12:00:03 PM by SydneyRover »
Not like the tories then pretending to be a government but in fact are escapees from day care centres.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #62 on May 21, 2020, 12:01:54 PM by Bentley Bullet »
A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.
So why hasn't a left-of-centre party won then?

SydneyRover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #63 on May 21, 2020, 12:02:50 PM by SydneyRover »
Do we have to go through this again just for you?

Filo

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #64 on May 21, 2020, 12:03:38 PM by Filo »
A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.
So why hasn't a left-of-centre party won then?

Yawn!!!!!!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #65 on May 21, 2020, 12:09:27 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
Because we have an electoral system designed for two-party politics. The last time we had two party politics, England held the World Cup.

The left of centre vote has been split since then between.
Labour
Liberals/SDP/SDLP/LDs
Greens
Plaid Cymru
SNP

The Right of centre vote has almost always been solidly Conservative.

Our system massively rewards the side that stays as a single electoral force and massively penalises sides that split into factions.

DonnyOsmond

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #66 on May 21, 2020, 12:26:28 PM by DonnyOsmond »
That ^^

The fact the Brexit Party has died off isn't good news too as it'll mean they'll swap their vote to the Tories. A coalition is probably the best hope going forward then change to a more representative voting system.

DonnyOsmond

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #67 on May 21, 2020, 12:27:47 PM by DonnyOsmond »
2019
Right leaning - Brexit Party, Conservatives - 14.6m
Left leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16m

2017
Right leaning - Conservatives, UKIP - 14.2m
Left leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16.75m

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #68 on May 21, 2020, 12:33:02 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 12:41:47 PM by BillyStubbsTears »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #69 on May 21, 2020, 12:34:06 PM by BillyStubbsTears »

Bentley Bullet

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #70 on May 21, 2020, 12:42:59 PM by Bentley Bullet »
Because we have an electoral system designed for two-party politics. The last time we had two party politics, England held the World Cup.

The left of centre vote has been split since then between.
Labour
Liberals/SDP/SDLP/LDs
Greens
Plaid Cymru
SNP

The Right of centre vote has almost always been solidly Conservative.

Our system massively rewards the side that stays as a single electoral force and massively penalises sides that split into factions.
How did Blair manage to win in 1997 and his party Stay in power for 10 years?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #71 on May 21, 2020, 12:58:52 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
BB.
Because the mood of the country, the Overton Window, had moved well over to the Left. The LDs remained a left-of-centre party. And they pulled votes from previous centre-right Tories. So the overall vote share for left of centre parties was huge. The left of centre vote was still split, but the Tory vote had shrunk so much that Labour were able to win large majorities with historically very small vote shares.

In 1997, Labour won a huge majority with a lower vote share than Wilson got when he lost in 1970. In 2005 Blair won another thumping majority with a lower vote share than Callaghan had got in being hammered by Thatcher in 1979.

The Overton Window moved left all.over the world from the 1990s.

The Democrats have won the popular vote in US Presidential elections in 6/7 elections since 1992, having won it in only 1 of the previous 5.

The German Chancellor has been from the Right for 51 of the 71 years since the post-War order was established. Gerhard Schroeder was a left of centre Chancellor from 98-05.

Even Brazil elected left wing Presidents from 2000-2016.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:02:51 PM by BillyStubbsTears »

Bentley Bullet

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #72 on May 21, 2020, 01:09:09 PM by Bentley Bullet »
Ah, and here's me thinking it was the (New) Labour party going more to the right that won it for them!

Eeh, yer live and learn!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #73 on May 21, 2020, 02:05:24 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
well, as on so many things BB, you are almost certainly wrong on cause and effect.

Labour moving towards the right didn't "win it for them". It was coincidental. It is hard to imagine what Labour leader would not have won in 1997. The Tory party was washed up. Out of ideas. Tearing itself apart over Europe and Major's leadership. Having just presided over a huge recession and the humilliation of Black Wednesday.

The Right was out of ideas all round the world. The Thatcher/Reagan revolution was over and, whatever positives it may have brought, it had done huge damage to the social fabric. We were moving into a phase where some repair of that was necessary - re-investment in education, health, infrastructure, a break on the runaway imbalances of wealth and income. That change was coming and it did not require Blair to move Labour as far to the right as he did. His predecessor, John Smith, was much further to the left. In the last opinion poll before his sudden death, Smith's Labour were ahead of the Tories by 45-24.

The change was coming.

If anything, Blair moving Labour so far to the right actually increased the split on the Left. Because over the next ten years, many on the far left drifted away and didn't vote Labour (see examples on this very board) while the LDs re-positioned themselves as being economically and socially to the left of Blair, and split the left-of-centre vote (until they had to make a decision in 2010 of course - then they went all in on Tory Austerity. Bu that's the LDs for you...). That is why, by 2005 (in an election that they won handsomely), Labour's vote share was lower than the elections of 1951, 55, 59, 63, 70 and 1979, in which they lost heavily, and only a fraction above what Kinnock won in 1992, again when Labour lost.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #74 on May 21, 2020, 02:18:09 PM by Bentley Bullet »
You'd have thought that those who drifted away from Blair's new Labour would have been closer to home to Scargill's new Socialist Labour Party.

Not Now Kato

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #75 on May 22, 2020, 11:18:42 PM by Not Now Kato »
Ah, and here's me thinking it was the (New) Labour party going more to the right that won it for them!

Eeh, yer live and learn!

But that's the problem BB, you don't learn!

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #76 on May 23, 2020, 08:10:06 PM by selby »
  In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
  The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
 Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
  IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
  He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
  So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
    Onward brothers together  is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 08:26:01 PM by selby »

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #77 on May 23, 2020, 08:12:16 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
  In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexi issue is over as he dismissed theidea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
  The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
 Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
  IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
  He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
  So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
    Onward brothers together  is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.

Don't confuse acceptance with agreement.

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #78 on May 23, 2020, 08:31:32 PM by selby »
  Glyn, the only way you could get me to agree with you would be with thumb screws, and I don't think you could confuse me either.

IDM

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #79 on May 23, 2020, 08:35:02 PM by IDM »
He could offer you a set of shovels and ask you to take your pick.?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #80 on May 23, 2020, 08:36:29 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
  Glyn, the only way you could get me to agree with you would be with thumb screws, and I don't think you could confuse me either.

if you're going to come out with rubbish like that I'm heartily glad you're not in agreement with me.

tyke1962

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #81 on May 23, 2020, 08:38:35 PM by tyke1962 »
  In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexi issue is over as he dismissed theidea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
  The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
 Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
  IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
  He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
  So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
    Onward brothers together  is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.

Selby

Part of real leadership is accepting what's possible and what is not to gain power .

He's now the leader of the Labour Party in opposition and not the shadow Brexit Secretary , we are now in the post brexit period , the argument is over and the meat on the bones politically is to have the credibility and worth of policies that bring prosperity to this country post Brexit .

There's nothing difficult about that to understand .

If you believe Johnson is a solid brexiter and actually believes in this thing then I'm afraid you are way off the mark .

Nobody but nobody writes the pro EU content he did as a journalist and actually believes in this with his heart and soul .

" if we didnt have the single market we'd have to invent it " .

He actually said that in 2003 .

Unless you have the strength of conviction and actually really believe what you are doing is the right thing then I'm afraid Johnson falls way short of the mark .

You might want to prepare yourself for a plastic brexit because this PM will capitulate , trust me he will .

This thing really does come down to courage and belief in what you are doing is the right path .

He's too weak to accept the pain , PM's like Thatcher were not and had the courage and belief even when we had 5m on the dole and she was about as popular as VD .

When you insinuate a weak man , your looking in the wrong direction .




Filo

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #82 on May 23, 2020, 09:02:23 PM by Filo »
  In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
  The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
 Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
  IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
  He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
  So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
    Onward brothers together  is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.

For a grown man you donít half come out with some childish shit

wilts rover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #83 on May 23, 2020, 09:06:10 PM by wilts rover »
  In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
  The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
 Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
  IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
  He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
  So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
    Onward brothers together  is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.

Come on selby catch up. He said something similar on the radio two weeks ago. That was my opening post on this thread.

As far as SKS & the Labour Party are concerned Brexit is done and finished. You won.

It is now up to Johnson to deliver it as promised by 31st December. Let us know how he gets on....

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #84 on May 23, 2020, 09:07:42 PM by selby »
  Filo, I have been called some things in the past but can't remember "a grown man" thanks.

DonnyOsmond

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #85 on May 23, 2020, 10:17:30 PM by DonnyOsmond »
Same as last time. Starmer putting all the pressure on the Tories. They've got to get this right or it'll fall nicely into Starmers hands.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #86 on May 23, 2020, 10:46:49 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
Starmer is playing this brilliantly.

Nothing OTT. Just ask probing questions and let the pressure build on Johnson.

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #87 on May 23, 2020, 10:53:06 PM by selby »
  His problem is Billy will come from his own party and the liberals and greens will gain their votes.

IDM

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #88 on May 23, 2020, 10:57:15 PM by IDM »
You donít think Starmer will see a more united Labour Party.?

You donít think that supporters of lesser parties will turn to Starmer next election as the realistic alternative to the current shambles.?  Not to mention those Tory supporters who will eventually get fed up.?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #89 on May 24, 2020, 12:58:06 AM by BillyStubbsTears »
  His problem is Billy will come from his own party and the liberals and greens will gain their votes.

You reckon?

It's not happening at the moment.

Since he became leader, the Tory lead in the weekly Opinium/Observer polls has gone

26%
19%
17%
18%
16%
15%
12%

That is a remarkable turnround by any standards.

And the combined LD+Green support has stayed rock solid at 8-9% through that period. What Starmer is currently doing is taking support rapidly directly from the Tories, and losing none to the LDs and Greens.

I keep saying to you. Brexit is old news. It has happened. We are in a different world now. One where most people (not you, obviously) don't see the world just through a Brexit lens.