Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on August 28, 2019, 09:58:08 am
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632
Utterly beyond belief.
We are in the middle of the biggest peacetime crisis since the Restoration.
Don't ANY of you Brexit supporters talk about democracy now. This destroys our entire concept of Parliamentary democracy.
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What is the law on this?
Surprises me they will do it, but is it perfectly allowed?
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Technically yes.
But it is supposed to be done only in times of national emergency.
Johnson is doing it because he knows he'd be turfed out by Parliament in the next few weeks.
You need to stop and consider the magnitude of this. Never in 250 years has a PM dismissed Parliament because he couldn't command their support.
The WHOLE basis if our democracy is that PARLIAMENT is sovereign. If you don't like what your MP then vote them out. But Johnson is now saying that HE as PM is sovereign. How does someone in Doncaster vote him out?
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We are now a Dictatorship
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So doing a bit of looking, it looks like it was done in 1948 by the then Labour government due to an issue with the lords, not parliament (crucial difference).
They are using the convenience of timing to get a Queens speech through and quite right that is normal, but they are certainly using that to their advantage. Where the opposite argument is, is that parliament will actually sit before this happens, which does give the MPs opportunity effectively to oust him if they so wish by no confidence vote? Not to mention parliament would be out for most of that period regardless of this for the conferences, so it's not quite as bad as being made out. However, I still feel it's a wrong move just for the connotations and spin of it...
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We are now a Dictatorship
Pompous w****r - HIM not you of course
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The 1948 example is not remotely in this league. Because it was done to enforce the will of the House of Commons against the House of Lords. The Commons had a mandate for that policy. And the policy would have passed anyway. The Lord's couldn't block it, just delay it.
This is being done to enforce the will of the PM against the House of Commons.
That's a coup. Pure and simple.
It basically means that, if he's not brought down immediately, there is no way for the Commons to enforce its will over the biggest decision this country has faced outside war since the 1680s. Because, if the Commons tries to force him in mid-Oct, he can just dissolve Parliament and call an Election for AFTER the Brexit date.
The rest of this week is going to be the most explosive in UK politics since 1940.
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This.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1166644255328260096
Every word.
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We are now a Dictatorship
Not yet. I'm expecting Rees-Mogg to burn down the Palace Of Westminster and Johnson to blame the Remainers first.
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It'd be fascinating to know how many of Johnson's spiv mates were shorting the Pound before this morning's announcement.
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I've just seen Johnson being interviewed about this. The git couldn't help himself from smirking and chuckling his way through it. He might as well have had 'Look at me, aren't I clever?' written on his forehead.
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But it's not him being clever. He's not clever or brave enough to do this himself.
It's got the dabs of that megalomaniac headcase, Cummings all over it.
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It'd be fascinating to know how many of Johnson's spiv mates were shorting the Pound before this morning's announcement.
That was the first thing I thought. Its a 100% fact that people will have made fortunes out of this.
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Anyway. We now know what Johnson meant when he gurned and banged the table and shouted "Let's take back control" in 2016.
It wasn't about taking back control for us. It was only ever about him.
It makes me weep, the number of decent, honest people that this Kitson has used and deceived
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Read this tweet.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1166638377397039105
Ask yourself if you can look yourself in the mirror if you support this.
This is what a coup looks like. If they try this on, there needs to be 2 million people downing tools and marching on Downing Street to evict the bas**rd physically.
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Regardless of that BST, what do the opposition parties now do? NO confidence vote (seemingly what BJ wants?), legal cases?????
It's all a big distraction to the fact they should all be working to get the deal that should have been in place months ago!
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Regardless of that BST, what do the opposition parties now do? NO confidence vote (seemingly what BJ wants?), legal cases?????
It's all a big distraction to the fact they should all be working to get the deal that should have been in place months ago!
Since when has the whole of Parliament worked on any deal? They can only vote on what's put in front of them by those who have the power to work on it, and if it's a shit deal it shouldn't expect to get a majority in Parliament just because it's the only one with a 'Brexit' label on it put before them.
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But it's not him being clever. He's not clever or brave enough to do this himself.
It's got the dabs of that megalomaniac headcase, Cummings all over it.
Almost certainly. But would you expect Boris to think it's him or Cummings that's being clever?
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Johnson (actually, Cummings) knows there IS no alternative deal. He's known this all along.
What Cummings is doing is provoking Parliament into a nuclear option.
Then we have an election where the Cummings line is "See! Them bas**rd MPs are against you. Oh and here's the ladder up into the Magic Money Tree that we spent a decade telling you didn't exist".
He is dangerously clever. He's pulling all the strings. He's pulled a genius stroke with Javid. Got him to announce a spending review next week which will promise to shower money on the electorate to set the ground for a General Election. Thing is, you'd normally do that via a Budget.
But.
If we had a Budget, the OBR would be obliged to privide economic projections, covering the No Deal future. And of course, the Govt does not want THAT getting out. So it's not a Budget. It's a spending review. And they can spin us all with their f**king bullshit.
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This is really scary. This is how it happens, folks.
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Johnson (actually, Cummings) knows there IS no alternative deal. He's known this all along.
What Cummings is doing is provoking Parliament into a nuclear option.
Then we have an election where the Cummings line is "See! Them bas**rd MPs are against you. Oh and here's the ladder up into the Magic Money Tree that we spent a decade telling you didn't exist".
He is dangerously clever. He's pulling all the strings. He's pulled a genius stroke with Javid. Got him to announce a spending review next week which will promise to shower money on the electorate to set the ground for a General Election. Thing is, you'd normally do that via a Budget.
But.
If we had a Budget, the OBR would be obliged to privide economic projections, covering the No Deal future. And of course, the Govt does not want THAT getting out. So it's not a Budget. It's a spending review. And they can spin us all with their f**king bullshit.
Also, a Budget would require Parliament to be sitting to listen and vote on it!!
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It's a bloody ETON MESS right wing coup
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Well done Boris, doing what the majority of the people voted for, getting this country out of The EU
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At what cost.?
Did the majority vote for a no deal Brexit.?? Did they.??
Pigf**kery of the highest order..
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Well done Boris, doing what the majority of the people voted for, getting this country out of The EU
Not ONE politician or brexit supporter promoted the idea of a no deal brexit. Not one.
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Well done Boris, doing what the majority of the people voted for, getting this country out of The EU
Well said
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It's pretty bad when you can't govern via parliament so you have to resort to this, setting a precedent so that it can be done by others in the future. I hope boris gets torn up and thrown out.
Guido Johnson lives and hopefully dies by the sword.
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If they want to they can vote him out next week, we appear to be forgetting that, hence they do still have the power. Will they?
I do not think at all BJ is making the right choice on this personally, but I also don't think it's some form of shocking coup given they could force him out of government if they wish.
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BFYP.
Read that tweet form Robert Peston. A Senior No10 adviser (read: Cummings) has said that if Johnson loses a VONC, they will just refuse to leave Downing Street or recommend an alternative PM to the Queen. Just count down the clock for a fortnight then call an Election. So Parliament wouldn't have to chance to stop No Deal.
Quite unbelievable that we're even discussing this, but that's the sort of rules that Cummings plays by. It would be a coup. Nothing less.
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This will seriously damaged Johnson and if he fails it will be the end of his public pubic life, if he succeeds then I think his party will use him and then turf him out hoping that it removes the stain as he goes.
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BFYP.
Read that tweet form Robert Peston. A Senior No10 adviser (read: Cummings) has said that if Johnson loses a VONC, they will just refuse to leave Downing Street or recommend an alternative PM to the Queen. Just count down the clock for a fortnight then call an Election. So Parliament wouldn't have to chance to stop No Deal.
Quite unbelievable that we're even discussing this, but that's the sort of rules that Cummings plays by. It would be a coup. Nothing less.
I get that, I totally do, but that's a very toxic option that will harm Johnson massively. He isn't playing this game to harm himself, if there's one thing we know of him is that will not be his strategy, he will not ever harm himself intentionally. Equally much of the bluster is about maximising the opposite strategy to make him look pretty bad.
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But it won't harm him will it? Because there's 30-35% of the population that are signed up to the No Deal death cult, and will support him doing this. They don't CARE that he's lied to the country. They don't CARE about this affront to the entire concept of our democracy. They are just slavering to stick it to the EU and the Remainers, and if that means ignoring Parliament, that's fine.
Look at some of the comments in here.
And 30-35% in the GE in November will give him a landslide.
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Well done Boris, doing what the majority of the people voted for, getting this country out of The EU
Well said
Why are certain people so keen on ruining the economy of the country? When we end up in a recession and end up with food being stockpiled it'll be all your f*cking faults.
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Depends who you mean DO.
Johnson is just in it for Johnson. He just wants to be the Head Boy, even if the school is on fire.
Cummings is the really scary one. He's decided that we need a total restructuring of the way we govern ourselves. That can only come about through a major crisis. Like...err..No Deal Brexit. And because he just KNOWS that he is the most intelligent and far-sighted person in the country, he won't listen to anyone who says that is the most dangerous thing you could do, and real people will get really hurt.
By the way, if you think I'm exaggerating about Cummings being a batshit megalomaniac, you ain't heard the half of it. Go read his blog or even better, his aborted PhD thesis that used to be on line. It's a terrifying insight into a hyoer-intelligent, deranged mind. And he's now inside No10 making policy for Johnson to sell to the gullible.
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For what it's worth.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
Not that this f**ker would listen...
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Depends who you mean DO.
Johnson is just in it for Johnson. He just wants to be the Head Boy, even if the school is on fire.
Cummings is the really scary one. He's decided that we need a total restructuring of the way we govern ourselves. That can only come about through a major crisis. Like...err..No Deal Brexit. And because he just KNOWS that he is the most intelligent and far-sighted person in the country, he won't listen to anyone who says that is the most dangerous thing you could do, and real people will get really hurt.
By the way, if you think I'm exaggerating about Cummings being a batshit megalomaniac, you ain't heard the half of it. Go read his blog or even better, his aborted PhD thesis that used to be on line. It's a terrifying insight into a hyoer-intelligent, deranged mind. And he's now inside No10 making policy for Johnson to sell to the gullible.
I mean the public, people on here. Surely it's career suicide for Johnson? He'll kill off the Brexit party and UKIP but he'll have part of his own party against him more than ever. The public seem to just be putting fingers in their ears saying it'll be fine because Farage said so but let's ignore the experts. It's like if your car is broke you don't listen to Dave the guy who works in Aldi stacking shelf's who says it's the clutch without looking, you listen to the professional mechanic of 30 years who says it's the brake pads, who has looked at the car.
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Serious question without angle or agenda.
Does anyone think there is any possibility whatsoever that given the scenario of a no-deal Brexit appears to be looming ever closer, that the EU may offer some last minute concessions? Is that a totally unrealistic prospect?
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Tommy.
What concessions could they give?
Tear up the backstop? That would mean hanging an EU member out to dry to satisfy the swivel-eyed nutters on the Right of the UK.
There is a zero chance of them doing that.
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Serious question without angle or agenda.
Does anyone think there is any possibility whatsoever that given the scenario of a no-deal Brexit appears to be looming ever closer, that the EU may offer some last minute concessions? Is that a totally unrealistic prospect?
Could they be trying to make the EU blink first knowing the original deal will always be on the table?
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Return of the IRA and riots coming?
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Blink about what?
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Well obviously the issue is the backstop and has been all along. And by concessions, something to do with the backstop is obviously what I am referring to. I get your point that it is highly unlikely that anyone's position will change on that but the EU do have history for making the very latest of late concessions don't they. I have no idea what such a concession might look like and clearly neither do the Government (still no evidence of these technological solutions etc) but would it take very much by way of a "concession" for this Government to snap it up as an 11th hour victory, get it through Parliament (when it next sits), leave the EU and then go win an election by a landslide? Or do you genuinely believe that BJ actually wants no-deal for the reasons you have already put forward rather than a compromise?
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Well obviously the issue is the backstop and has been all along. And by concessions, something to do with the backstop is obviously what I am referring to. I get your point that it is highly unlikely that anyone's position will change on that but the EU do have history for making the very latest of late concessions don't they. I have no idea what such a concession might look like and clearly neither do the Government (still no evidence of these technological solutions etc) but would it take very much by way of a "concession" for this Government to snap it up as an 11th hour victory, get it through Parliament (when it next sits), leave the EU and then go win an election by a landslide? Or do you genuinely believe that BJ actually wants no-deal for the reasons you have already put forward rather than a compromise?
Wouldn't taking out the backstop tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
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it's a strange feeling for me..Even as a Tory I don't believe what has happened today and for once I am in total agreement with you all that this is very wrong...The only plus side for me personally is that I've had a short open on the pound since last week and a long open on Gold bullion at the same time..Of course that was based on the technical charts rather than being tipped off by Boris...
Still a sad day for democracy...
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BFYP.
Read that tweet form Robert Peston. A Senior No10 adviser (read: Cummings) has said that if Johnson loses a VONC, they will just refuse to leave Downing Street or recommend an alternative PM to the Queen. Just count down the clock for a fortnight then call an Election. So Parliament wouldn't have to chance to stop No Deal.
Quite unbelievable that we're even discussing this, but that's the sort of rules that Cummings plays by. It would be a coup. Nothing less.
If it can be shown to the Queen that someone else can command a majority in the Commons - and that therefore Boris can't - what's to stop her inviting that someone else to form a government, and also if Parliament show that there's a majority for reversing the prorogation, can she possibly ignore that?
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Tommy
Agreed with most of your post.
Personally, I've said all along that this was never about us leaving the EU. It was always and totally about Johnson's career.
He KNOWS that the EU won't flip on the backstop. Because, however much a No Deal might hurt them, backing down on this would do FAR more damage to the EU's credibility and long term cohesion.
Johnson knows all that. He knows there's zero chance of negotiating a deal when he's set such a high bar.
But this isn't about a deal. It's about throwing red meat to the 30-35% of the electorate that he needs to win the election in the Autumn.
So he's setting himself up as the Champion of The Will of The People against these evil bas**rds in Parliament and the EU.
That's my take anyway. I can't see any other take that makes sense. Certainly, if you start from the position that Johnson is acting in good faith, you'll never make any sense out of it. He's never acted in good faith in his life.
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FYI.
What happens next:
http://www.democraticaudit.com/2019/08/28/threat-of-prorogation-what-can-the-commons-do/
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Glyn.
How do you show it to the Queen. Traditionally, she takes advice from the PM who is assumed to be representing the will of Parliament.
What do you do when the PM flatly refused to represent the will of Parliament?
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The thing is Glyn..Just who could command a majority in the house??? I'm not sure anybody could...
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Well obviously the issue is the backstop and has been all along. And by concessions, something to do with the backstop is obviously what I am referring to. I get your point that it is highly unlikely that anyone's position will change on that but the EU do have history for making the very latest of late concessions don't they. I have no idea what such a concession might look like and clearly neither do the Government (still no evidence of these technological solutions etc) but would it take very much by way of a "concession" for this Government to snap it up as an 11th hour victory, get it through Parliament (when it next sits), leave the EU and then go win an election by a landslide? Or do you genuinely believe that BJ actually wants no-deal for the reasons you have already put forward rather than a compromise?
Boris doesn't care whether it's a Deal or a No Deal, he just wants any Brexit he can so he can emasculate the Brexit Party before a General Election. And if the country has to crash and burn to get that for him, tough.
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Interesting stuff Albie. There's some explosive possibilities there. Like Parliament passing a law to make it illegal for Johnson to act as PM.
What depressed and worries me is that every step of this situation further divided and enrages and alienates people. It's going to take decades to heal the wounds in society that this f**ker has opened up.
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The thing is Glyn..Just who could command a majority in the house??? I'm not sure anybody could...
The best chance is a short-term candidate who has the respect of the House and no ambition past the current crisis, such as Ken Clarke who has been mooted. No chance of it happening under Corbyn - you will probably get enough rebel Tories to vote AGAINST Boris to stop No Deal via a VONC but they won't then vote FOR Corbyn to make him PM.
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Glyn.
How do you show it to the Queen. Traditionally, she takes advice from the PM who is assumed to be representing the will of Parliament.
What do you do when the PM flatly refused to represent the will of Parliament?
The Speaker is the official representative of the House of Commons to the Monarch, not the PM. He can do it. The PM only represents the Government, not Parliament, and only then when he can command a majority in the Commons.
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"Humble address" anyone?
See the link to Democratic Audit.
High risk strategy from Cummings and his yapdog.
No Tory who supports the democratic values of the HoC can support this, and now need to act in the national interest.
Interesting quote from Craig Murray;
"Johnson has been able to take over without facing the electorate because of the polite constitutional fiction that it is the same Conservative government continuing and nothing has changed. Yet he justifies the prorogation of parliament by the argument that it is a new government and a new Queen’s Speech is thus needed."
Quite so!
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Tommy
Agreed with most of your post.
Personally, I've said all along that this was never about us leaving the EU. It was always and totally about Johnson's career.
He KNOWS that the EU won't flip on the backstop. Because, however much a No Deal might hurt them, backing down on this would do FAR more damage to the EU's credibility and long term cohesion.
Johnson knows all that. He knows there's zero chance of negotiating a deal when he's set such a high bar.
But this isn't about a deal. It's about throwing red meat to the 30-35% of the electorate that he needs to win the election in the Autumn.
So he's setting himself up as the Champion of The Will of The People against these evil bas**rds in Parliament and the EU.
That's my take anyway. I can't see any other take that makes sense. Certainly, if you start from the position that Johnson is acting in good faith, you'll never make any sense out of it. He's never acted in good faith in his life.
Funnily enough, he needs those evil bas**rds in Parliament to enable him to call a General Election. If he manages to force through Brexit through all this chicanery, I'd love to see all the opposition parties abstain every time he tries to win enough votes to be able to call an election, just for long enough that all the shit from the Brexit fallout sticks to Boris and his bunch of incompetents and no-one else and then hold an election.
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I thought Johnson was supposed to be a student of history? Because if he knows enough about British history he will know that when leaders attempt to avoid the scrutiny of those they are governing it rarely ends well.
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I thought Johnson was supposed to be a student of history? Because if he knows enough about British history he will know that when leaders attempt to avoid the scrutiny of those they are governing it rarely ends well.
In that case Wilts, as I've said in another thread, Labour should p*ss the forthcoming election.
Are you confident of that?
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I've dug out Cummings' aborted PhD.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiqnczp96XkAhVTi1wKHeh6C704ChAWMAh6BAgJEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdominiccummings.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2F20130825-some-thoughts-on-education-and-political-priorities-version-2-final.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0UJI34olkrZiiYYruT5xuI
f**king terrifying that he is now effectively running the country. That is a random word salad of "things that have impressed me in science and HEY! wouldn't it be great if we could destroy society and re-build it better with those principles" nonsense.
He has the sort of brain that should be locked up in academia. He might come up with a world changing idea. He might turn out to be just mentally unstable and full of himself. But either way, he couldn't affect the real world without layers and layers of other people and systems in between to rein him in.
Instead, he's worked himself into a position where he has almost untrammeled power to force his maniacal babblings into policy.
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WOW, Boris has really got you going now lads.
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It's a right comedy play, off they go on their summer jollies, then when they come back all the chuckle brothers and sisters get together and have a day thinking how clever they are banding together against the bogie man Boris, now they think they have him on the run and all the world is Rosie.
The next day Boris comes up with a plan that causes mayhem, even the no mark Saubry even had a couple of minutes of fame as leader of her ( are there enough members to call it a party?).
Well on it goes, everyone getting upset, and the real king maker Farage dipping in and out just waiting for a general election, when he can get centre stage, and bury all the minnows on prime time TV when it suits him.
Most of this lot are digging their own graves, and the funny thing is I don't think they realise it.
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Will you be so enthusiastic to support this rabble when the economy dives further and those that support us are forced to turn the taps off?
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Whether anyone likes it or not, Johnson is playing a blinder here.
He knows that those MP’s who wish to stop a No Deal have their price. There aren’t enough Tory MP’s who will support a vote of no confidence, there remains a minority of Labour MPs who are very uncomfortable with doing anything to help Corbyn become PM and for the Liberals and Independents, Corbyn in Number 10 is a step too far. Those politicians who claim that they’ll do anything to prevent a no deal are struggling to walk the walk. Johnson knows this.
Right through the Brexit debacle the ‘Remain’ members of the house have been unable to create a united front and to put party politics to one side and Johnson is doing what he can to use this to his advantage.
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This will seriously damaged Johnson and if he fails it will be the end of his public pubic life, if he succeeds then I think his party will use him and then turf him out hoping that it removes the stain as he goes.
He has been called the most proficient, proven liar ever to become PM and even today the wry smile(s) when saying this has nothing to do with blocking the opportunities to stop No Deal - moreso its about the NHS / Crime and punishment etc etc said it all
So even if disgraced over this he will reinvent himself. After all he only jumped on the Leave campaign at the very last minute having written speeches in favour of remain
He is a t**t of the highest order
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Whether anyone likes it or not, Johnson is playing a blinder here.
He knows that those MP’s who wish to stop a No Deal have their price. There aren’t enough Tory MP’s who will support a vote of no confidence, there remains a minority of Labour MPs who are very uncomfortable with doing anything to help Corbyn become PM and for the Liberals and Independents, Corbyn in Number 10 is a step too far. Those politicians who claim that they’ll do anything to prevent a no deal are struggling to walk the walk. Johnson knows this.
Right through the Brexit debacle the ‘Remain’ members of the house have been unable to create a united front and to put party politics to one side and Johnson is doing what he can to use this to his advantage.
This is Cummings and Crosby, boris has the concentration of a small rodent and would struggle to put a lunch order together.
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How is the EU worse than this Government?!
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Well, here's three Cabinet Ministers who, one assumes, will be resigning.
(From the BBC website)
At his own leadership campaign launch on 10 June, Matt Hancock, who has stayed on in Mr Johnson's cabinet as health secretary, said the idea (proroguing Parliament) "goes against everything that those men who waded onto those beaches [on D-Day] fought and died for - and I will not have it.”
Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd told BBC News that it was "outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament".
While Culture Secretary Nicky Morgan said "it would lead to a constitutional crisis."
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I love how to Selby this is hilarious cos he's "lib baiting". Yep, top banter, totally ignoring the country's legislative body and making yourself a de facto dictator.
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It'd be fascinating to know how many of Johnson's spiv mates were shorting the Pound before this morning's announcement.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cx250jmk4e7t/pound-sterling-gbp
more profits in the bible than shorting today sorry mate
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Hancock only cares about his own career.
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Well, here's three Cabinet Ministers who, one assumes, will be resigning.
(From the BBC website)
At his own leadership campaign launch on 10 June, Matt Hancock, who has stayed on in Mr Johnson's cabinet as health secretary, said the idea (proroguing Parliament) "goes against everything that those men who waded onto those beaches [on D-Day] fought and died for - and I will not have it.”
Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd told BBC News that it was "outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament".
While Culture Secretary Nicky Morgan said "it would lead to a constitutional crisis."
I doubt it. As we’re seeing right now, all politicians have their price.
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I thought Johnson was supposed to be a student of history? Because if he knows enough about British history he will know that when leaders attempt to avoid the scrutiny of those they are governing it rarely ends well.
In that case Wilts, as I've said in another thread, Labour should p*ss the forthcoming election.
Are you confident of that?
Well Steve he appears to be on around 30-35% support at most. I think this move today has increased the possibility of the opposition parties getting together in a formal (or most likely informal) 'Stop Boris' alliance - whenever the next election is.
What I am confident of is that the Tories will loose most of their 12 seats in Scotland and around 20-30 to the Lib Dems in the south west - Welsh borders. So they will need to take at least 30 from Labour to be back whee they are now.
I wonder how confident Johnson is of being PM after the election? He has a small majority in a remain seat where he let the electorate down by lying about his opposition to the Heathrow extension that will blight their lives...
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Snap poll. People disagree with proroguing parliament by 47% to 27%.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1166717448118296576
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If all this is unconstitutional and outrageous, then why has the Queen signed it?
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If all this is unconstitutional and outrageous, then why has the Queen signed it?
You have to know how our constitution works.
Most of it is not written down explicitly. It's based on precedent. It's based on what has been generally agreed to be reasonable in past times.
And, crucially, it's based on the concept that the Monarch doesn't make political decisions about right or wrong.
So. If the PM advises the Monarch to take a course of action, the Monarch will ALWAYS take that action. Because the Monarch assumes that the PM is acting with the agreement of Parliament, which itself is answerable directly to the electorate in any election.
THAT's how the system works.
What has happened today is that Johnson and Cummings have ridden a coach and horses through it. They have advised the Queen to suspend Parliament precisely because Parliament DOES NOT agree with their plan of action over Brexit. Johnson has destroyed the concept that the PM will advise the Queen in good faith, with the backing of Parliament.[1]
But the Queen CANNOT get involved in questioning the good faith of the PM, because to do so, she would be actively engaging in making a political judgement.
So, she has signed the document. There was zero chance of her doing otherwise.
[1] Just read that sentence again and stop and think. What the reaction of the Establishment would be if Corbyn was PM and was trying to force through the most controversial legislation in 350 years. And to do so, he basically tore up the concept of how our constitution works. What you have just witnessed today is the single most revolutionary act by the leader of the country against Parliament since the time of the Civil War. I'm not exaggerating. It is THAT big a deal. And they day Corbyn is a danger to the country...
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In that case Billy, as I've said in other threads, Labour should p*ss the forthcoming election; but they won't, will they?
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SS
No. Because a frighteningly large proportion of our population seem to think that lib-baiting is great and it doesn't matter if you f**k all over democracy.
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We didn't start it.
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The Privy council decide on behalf of the Queen, there are over 400 privy council members, it only needs 3 to make a quora, todys privy council meeting was attended by three people, one of those was Jacob Rees-Mogg, that tells you everything you need to know
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Gina unleashes the lawyers;
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-miller/legal-campaigner-miller-asks-courts-to-block-uk-parliament-suspension-idUKKCN1VI2EY?rpc=401&
This is as well as the challenge brought in the Scottish courts.
Straining the chain like scrapyard dogs!
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These are the mendacious bas**rds who are in the Cabinet now
https://mobile.twitter.com/annaturley/status/1166976091602464774
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Well this could be a game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49509275
Davison was instrumental in de-toxifying the Tories in Scotland. Without the 12 seats they won there in 2017, the Tories would have been hoyed out of office. This changes the arithmetic for an Autumn election.
I wonder if Cummings has programmed THAT f**ker into his algorithm?
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Playing devils advocate here. Would we have got to this stage if parliament had respected the result and worked to get the country the best deal possible and then voted it through rather than what has transpired?
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Ldr.
We'll never know.
Parliament never had a chance to do that.
May decided in Jan 2017 that the narrow result in 2016 was a mandate for a very hard Brexit that meant us leaving the SM and CU.
She did that to pander to the slavering Europhobic wing of her party that never represented more than a small fraction of the nation. She did that because she was scared that they would turf her out otherwise.
From that moment on, it was impossible to expect Labour, the SNP or LDs to support May's deal. They had been frozen out of any discussion on what Brexit meant, and their interpretation of Brexit was always softer, involving at the very least us staying in the SM and very close to the CU.
So, from Jan 2017, at May's own choice, she could only get a deal through Parliament by satisfying the rabid Right of the Tory party. And she forgot the oldest truism. If you feed the tiger, it will eat that then come for you afterwards.
That is EXACTLY what has happened. The Tory Right rejected her deal, ate her up, spat her out, and took over the party. And it's now effectively ruled out ANY sort of deal.
Disastrous decisions every single step of the way from May. A weak, weak PM pretending to be a strong one, and in doing so, destroying herself and horribly harming the country.
It didn't have to be like that. But that's her legacy.
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Playing devils advocate here. Would we have got to this stage if parliament had respected the result and worked to get the country the best deal possible and then voted it through rather than what has transpired?
Parliament could only do what May allowed it to do. Which was vote on the shit she put in front of it. What else do you think Parliament could have done to work on a deal that they could agree on in those circumstances?
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The fatal mistake that May made was in failing to understand what Brexit was about for the Tory right.
It was never about what kind of Brexit we got. That line has changed on a daily basis.
It was ALWAYS about them using the issue to take over the party.
If May had realised this 3 years ago (and it wasn't f**king rocket science - I was saying it then) she could have realised that she could never defeat the Tory right on their ground.
She could have been the nationally unifying PM who found a deal that would have been grudgingly accepted by a majority.
She failed spectacularly on that decision. And that's why we are in this shite heap, and why she will be remembered as THE worst PM in history.
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Glyn, re read the question, its theoretical
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The point is though, Ldr, that only the Govt could shape the form of Brexit.
May COULD have reached out across party lines to find an acceptable compromise Brexit. I suspect that would have worked, in that Labour under Corbyn was itching to put Brexit to bed.
My gut feeling is that a Norway type deal would have got through Parliament with support from 2/3rds of Labour and 2/3rds of the Tories. But it would have left the Right of the Tory party spitting venom. So it would have taken a very strong and strategic PM to do it.
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I get that BST, my question though was the hypothetical what if scenario, not the clusterf**k actual happening
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Then I've said. I think a Norway-type soft Brexit deal would have got through.
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Is everybody happy today? :) :) :) :)
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Why.?
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I was. Then you turned up.
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Is everybody happy today? :) :) :) :)
I’m happy thanks
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I was. Then you turned up.
Ha ha ;)
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Rumour is that Tory MP Richard Harrington plans to stand down at next GE, and will vote against no deal.
Announcement this evening?
How many others are thinking about their position?
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Rumour is that Tory MP Richard Harrington plans to stand down at next GE, and will vote against no deal.
Announcement this evening?
How many others are thinking about their position?
Well he has sent an announcement to his local paper so it must be true
https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/17869240.watford-mp-richard-harrington-announces-will-stand-next-election/
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Shamelessly stolen from Mark Steel in the Independent:
Even so, Johnson shouldn’t get his way in the long run, because scrapping all regulations on greed, handing the country to super-rich crackpots and monocled oddities, while blaming everything that goes wrong on immigrants, is not actually the will of the people. There are far more people opposed to this than in support of it, including the overwhelming majority of the largest cities, of Scotland, and of people under the age of 50.
What they all need is a slogan, around which they can come together, to stop Johnson and his elite making their maniacal grab for power. Maybe we should try “take back control”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-suspended-queen-remain-opposition-a9084021.html
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Looks like the coup is going well. They've gone straight to the Purge stage.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sajid-javid-media-adviser-dominic-cummings_uk_5d6821e3e4b06beb649b44bd?x1e&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvL1NuWkxLMzNoaE0&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGQbwcolbUykcc59htewOLOzJHUhIvYObKxiW2BV71-vJR9-RoyihnSWwN8HmIKRmaKFEcULuldReVFsfV-TnJKIeDS8kXt91kN94WZIYKD1V7FBwIizXdeCM7pKsrrf3sPIK-najkgrimL8tuOsL5MJZoRzJToVXKKcgHksJA13
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It is sickening to watch the excerpts of all those Tory MPs Gove Javid Rudd Hancock (watch him read his Autocue) etc slamming the possible suspension of Parliament and now being in Johnsons Cabinet that has done just that B******g hypocrites the lot of them
Johnson himself saying this has nothing to to with leaving the EU and his puppet muppet Ress Mogg having the nerve to stand there on Breakfast yesterday just sneering at every question he was asked and answering it completely off at a tangent or sufficiently "grey" as to avid the whole point. He knows exactly what they are doing ffs - and expects simple folk like me will believe or be placated by the answers he gave
Oh wait though they are Politicians and of course they lie (or dont answer) for a living
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1167010726088773632 (https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1167010726088773632)
I dont think I have ever been so MAD (angry) in my entire long life. I can just imagine them sat in a room somewhere giggling like Kids and saying ho ho they didnot see that coming
PR now !
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
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There’s a big difference between honouring the result of the referendum and crashing out of the EU with no deal.
I wanted the uk to stay in the EU, still do, but accept that leaving is going to happen. BUT this must be managed properly for the whole of the country and not just a small handful of folks who no deal suits..
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And there is a bigger dilemma honouring a corrupt vote process
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
I also (like a broken record) have said this before on here and elsewhere
The Referendum result was a non binding on the Government and they could have simply said - NO too devisive 52 48 ish to provide a conclusion and we should ignore it and maybe try again later. They chose to try and "get it over the line" and as yet have not managed it
People inclusing Gove Johnson May etc etc have said it would be undemocratic to NOT get that vote implemented
However (here is my broken record) in the 1975 Referendum 66% of those who voted as against 34 % who voted produced the result to REMAIN in The EU. Total votes numbered just about as many as in 2016 so it was the second largest vote in our Electoral history by a very small amount
So the majority for REMAIN was lets say 32% compared to 4 % in 2016 thats of course 8 times more than voted LEAVE in 2016
My point is - yes I agree a lot of time has passed since 1975 and a lot reading this were not even born. The world has changed beyond belief BUT ... what has enraged me is that everyone in 75 just got on with it. I got on with it even though I personally voted LEAVE. It was definitive - we were in the EU and staying in and everyone seemed happy
Except of course all those Tory MPs (mainly) who from 75 onwards tried to subvert the will of the people - and they kept going and going with no particular mandate and only their own bloody mindenedness spurring them on
Dont forget 5 years ago nobody really gave the EU a second thought - there were no riots against it - no setting fire to buildings etc - it was (like suppoting Rovers) it was just "there"
So the thing (laced with irony) is that that very group of people who never accepted the will of the people in 75 and worked against it from day one are the very same people (not literally in some cases) who are now crowing about "we cannot ignore the will of the British people"
I was going to say thay cant have it both ways but of course they are career politicians and they CAN and DO have it whichever way they want
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.
If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?
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There’s a big difference between honouring the result of the referendum and crashing out of the EU with no deal.
I wanted the uk to stay in the EU, still do, but accept that leaving is going to happen. BUT this must be managed properly for the whole of the country and not just a small handful of folks who no deal suits..
This is it in a nutshell isn't it?
No deal is not the right option (though has to be used as a tactic in negotiation given nobody wants it). But the comments above about it not being binding etc, smack of "I don't like it therefore I'll come up with anything I can to thwart it". It's a brave person who turns round and writes off the majority of people who voted in that referendum.
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.
If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?
Glyn
The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?
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There seems to be some widespread misunderstanding about how or democracy actually works..
The whole point of our democracy is that power resides with the people, who elect MPs to make decisions.
Here's the key point. If you don't like the decisions your MP has made,you can vote against them at the next Election.
The Referendum had no constitutional power to over ride that process. The decision on when, if and how we leave the EU still resides with Parliament. If MPs take decisions on Brexit that you don't like, vote them out. That's how it works.
Now, here's why what Johnson has just done is so dangerous.
He's basically done everything he can to remove the ability of MPs to make their judgements on Brexit. He's calling I er the heads of MPs, directly to the electorate. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW OUR SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO WORK!
The ONLY constraint there is on a PM in our system is the ability of MP's to hold him/her to account. Johnson has just ridden a coach and horses through that set of checks and balances. If that is allowed to stand, it is the biggest challenge to our democratic system for 350 years.
This is WAY bigger than Brexit. It's about whether we are prepared to give uncontrolled power to one person. No system that does that is a functioning democracy.
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How many circumstances do we encounter everyday where we are given a choice to confirm a decision already made.?
I’m talking about simple things like buying a cinema ticket online, or closing a Word document when asked if you want to save it. More complex are things like applying for credit, getting out of a phone contract and leaving Sky.
The point is all these little things offer several levels of checking and the opportunity to think again.
Brexit is the biggest political and social decision the country has faced for decades. And we got one shot.. one.. no “are you sure” choice once all the real details emerge, long after an original - and of course valid - vote was taken..
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I see some gutless f**ks in the Tory party are now deleting tweets they made a few months ago saying it would be outrageous if Parliament was prorogued.
https://mobile.twitter.com/_mattgibbo/status/1167142789882273793
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Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.
If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?
Glyn
The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?
54% of people voted for parties that vehemently ruled out no deal at the 2017 GE.
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Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?
If he did a good job he wouldn't have a no confidence vote?
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Bpool.
That's the entire point!
The PM is ONLY the PM because they can command the confidence of the House. Not because 100,000 retired Home Counties golf club bores voted him in.
If he can't command the confidence of the House, he is by definition NOT the PM.
What you are saying is that you can't blame him for suspending Parliament in those circumstances. Quite astonishing what people will justify.
As for a Lab or LD PM, there is no way they could command the confidence of the House generally. If such a PM did come about, they would have the confidence of the House SOLELY on halting Brexit temporarily (to avoid a No Deal that no one voted for) and then calling an Election.
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Good call Glyn.
Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.
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To be fair BST neither was there a mandate to oppose no deal. The only thing you can say for sure was there was a mandate to leave the EU
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Bently Boris says it's democracy apparently :woohoo:
Both Labour & Tories promised to honour the results of the referendum in their election manifestos. The 2016 government confirmed that they’d deliver the result of the referendum...and since 2016 remainers have done everything in their armoury to try and overturn the result of the referendum. Democracy only when it suits.
The 2016 government disappeared in 2017. What the 2016 government said cannot be beholden to any other government that follows it.
If your so keen to quote manifestos, I'm sure you'd be happy for the form of Brexit promised in the Labour manifesto. Or is it Democracy only when it suits, eh?
Glyn
The Tories won the 2017 election with a manifesto that explicitly stated that we would leave the customs union & single market. So you’re totally wrong. So, let’s talk democracy. You’re happy to reverse a referendum result (because you don’t like the result). You choose to ignore the manifesto of the winning party from the last GE (because you don’t like the result). So, tell me how you feel democracy should work? Maybe carry on holding EU referendums until you like the result? Only hold political parties accountable to their manifesto when it contains policies you like?
You brought up the Labour manifesto. Funny how you've decided to choose to ignore it (in the same way you accuse me of doing so!) and only talk about the Tories in your reply!
I don't want to reverse the result of any referendum. I want the British public to do that. Only it wouldn't be holding the same referendum again, the question asked would be different and based upon the actual terms of leaving. Isn't that how true democracy should work?
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Good call Glyn.
Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.
I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.
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Ldr.
And now we get to the core of the problem with the 2016 Referendum question.
You say there was a mandate to Leave.
But "Leave" wasn't a thing. There were many different forms of "Leave" from Norway to No Deal.
And here's the point. There was never a mandate for any SPECIFIC form of Leave.
What has happened is that the different factions of the Right have spent the past three years fighting between themselves as to what the Leave "mandate" means.
Do you see the irony? The Leave voters passionately insist that we have to respect the Ref vote because the People decided.
But the People did NOT decide. They simply gave bullets for Tory/UKIP/BP politicians to fire in their fight about determining what Brexit means.
That is why I am in favour of a Ref2. But this time with an unambiguous SPECIFIC form of Brexit on the ballot paper. If you want the People to decide, it HAS to be on a specific, unambiguous question. Otherwise you get the clusterf**k that the Tories have given us for the past 3 years.
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HA
Point of fact. The Tories DIDN'T win the 2017 General Election. They lost a perfectly good majority.
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Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?
What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?
And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
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Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?
What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?
And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?
that’s not what I said I said to have a lab or Lib Dem pm was not voted for unless I’m mistaken there are around 12 Lib Dem mps yet might end up with one as pm
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Boris wasn’t voted in as PM by the electorate either..
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.
Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.
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Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?
What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?
And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?
that’s not what I said I said to have a lab or Lib Dem pm was not voted for unless I’m mistaken there are around 12 Lib Dem mps yet might end up with one as pm
Explain the Coalition then. Who voted for that?
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.
Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.
Only it doesn't. If people really wanted to Leave we would.
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There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.
Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.
It doesn't halve any votes. Read it again.
I can see there's a fatal flaw though if folk are unable to follow simple instructions.
And don't worry about my employment. I put in enough effort for several folk, trust me.
What will you be doing at 10pm tonight?
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There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.
That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.
It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.
You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."
And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.
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Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.
What a pathetic argument....
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I see some gutless f**ks in the Tory party are now deleting tweets they made a few months ago saying it would be outrageous if Parliament was prorogued.
https://mobile.twitter.com/_mattgibbo/status/1167142789882273793 (https://mobile.twitter.com/_mattgibbo/status/1167142789882273793)
1984 to come to their rescue ? They probably think it is 1984 esque. Reprint the Newspapers / get rid of the TV Progs and all traces of their "opinions" edicts and thoughts disappear and can be replaced by whatever they think is the current correct viewpoint
However its 2019 and THEY are all in My Room 101.
I think I will Tweet or retweet the clip every day for the rest of my life
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Good call Glyn.
Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.
I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.
Glyn
The Labour manifesto says very clearly that it accepts the result of the referendum, however it rejects no deal as a viable option. For the record this is a view I share. Now, how about you. Do you accept the result of the referendum? Or, are you being selective in your opinion of democracy and only wish to accept results that you agree with? That’s the impression you give.
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There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.
That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.
It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.
You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."
And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.
Yep, that’s right Billy. No leavers really knew what they were voting for. We were all conned. Patronising at best, insulting at worst.
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Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.
What a pathetic argument....
I know several (probably hundreds of) people who Voted Leave and I would not call any of them "thick" neither would I call the one who Voted Remain as "thick" nor assign any other adjectives to them
The whole problem with the whole mess (and it IS a mess) is that the vote was just too devisive Even though Politicians call it an overwhelmig majority it was lets face it not much better than 50 / 50 and I blame Cameron for :
a) caving in to the element who wanted a Referendum
b) for not ACTIVELY campaigning FOR remaining rather than thinking Remain would walk it and
c) for not saying the vote had to be at least 60 % to mak a change to the status quo
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Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.
What a pathetic argument....
I know several (probably hundreds of) people who Voted Leave and I would not call any of them "thick" neither would I call the one who Voted Remain as "thick" nor assign any other adjectives to them
The whole problem with the whole mess (and it IS a mess) is that the vote was just too devisive Even though Politicians call it an overwhelmig majority it was lets face it not much better than 50 / 50 and I blame Cameron for :
a) caving in to the element who wanted a Referendum
b) for not ACTIVELY campaigning FOR remaining rather than thinking Remain would walk it and
c) for not saying the vote had to be at least 60 % to mak a change to the status quo
You’re right Wolf. As someone has pointed out before (Billy ST?) From the off it was nothing about leaving the EU but more to do with Cameron finally silencing the anti EU members of his party.
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What leavers didn't know but should have guessed was that the tories would use every conceivable lever to screw them and everyone else over in their moral and scruple free zone
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There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.
That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.
It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.
You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."
And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.
Yep, that’s right Billy. No leavers really knew what they were voting for. We were all conned. Patronising at best, insulting at worst.
HA
Doesn't help when you set up straw men like this. I have NEVER either thought or said that all Leave supporters were conned.
What I HAVE said is that Farage deliberately set out to con people. He pushed the idea of a Norway deal then flipped and said that would be a betrayal. Cummings made the whole Vote Leave campaign about conning people. He's said it himself. That's why he spent several million quid on profiling voters who were not politically savvy but we're anti-immigrant, then pumped literally hundreds of millions of adverts into their social media telling them 80 million Turks were about to get the right to move in next door.
Back to the point I was making. You will not find a single example of a leading Leave campaigner in 2016 telling voters that a Leave vote was a vote for No Deal. But now they are saying that's what we should aim for.
Agreed?
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BFYP. That one is for you too. Better to argue on the basis of what people actually say, not what you want them to have said.
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Good call Glyn.
Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.
I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.
Glyn
The Labour manifesto says very clearly that it accepts the result of the referendum, however it rejects no deal as a viable option. For the record this is a view I share. Now, how about you. Do you accept the result of the referendum? Or, are you being selective in your opinion of democracy and only wish to accept results that you agree with? That’s the impression you give.
I have said several times that I accept the result but that I still reserve the right to think that it is the single stupidest thing the British Public has ever done. Knowing that whatever version of Leave is going to damage the British economy then if we have to Leave we should do it the least damaging way possible. That's why when the details of HOW we're leaving are known it should be put to the public again for confirmation that that is exactly what they want.
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If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.
How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.
17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.
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SS
By "that rabble" I assume you mean our current PM, Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary? All three of them voted down May's deal last winter. We'd be out now if they hadn't done.
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Biggest vote? In that case the vote to remain must have been one of the biggest too as the majority was small.!!
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If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.
How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.
17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.
... and here is the 1975 Result with the second biggest ever vote etc ...
Yes (remain in EU) 17,378,581 67.23 %
No ( Leave EEC / EU) 8,470,073 32.77 %
So only 22000 votes less to Remain in EEC/EU than to leave in 2016 and it produced a majority of 34.5 %
The 17.4 mill in 2016 produced only a majority of 4 %
Tory MPs have constantly disrespected the 1975 result even with its majority of 2 to 1 but then ask other MPs now to uphold the will of the british people and respect democracy while they did not give a s**t about a majority 8 times bigger
Think about it
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Wolf,
You have to think about those who did not vote as well.
Abstention is a valid choice if you don't think you know enough about the issue to make a choice.
Since Ref1 some of those will have formed an opinion......others may have changed their position.
Since the advisory Ref1, a new government has been elected.
Deliberative democracy like referendums are not defined in the UK, unlike in Sweden.
Representative democracy like a GE elects a HoC to interpret actions on behalf of the electorate.
The 2 types of democracy can deliver contradictory outcomes, as now.
So the UK needs to set out how the different processes interact.
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Albie.
Do you really think that there is a significant proportion of the electorate that decides not to vote as a positive choice, rather than through disconnection? I know that's a touchstone of the Left that there's a side franchised groundswell looking for something to believe in, but is there any evidence of that?
There IS however, a large number of people who didn't vote in 2016 and who would vote overwhelmingly for Remain in any Ref2. It's people between the ages of 18-21.
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?
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Yes Blackpool why not?
Let's vote to be:
A) hung
B) hung, drawn and quartered.
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?
BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?
It's not a rerun of the first referendum, it's a whole new one. And there is need for remain on it. Not all Tories are Leavers, not all Labour are Leavers, not all the voters for other parties are Leavers either. The whole point is that you're not asking the question to the parties but the voters. Otherwise, let's have a General Election and if a party has Remain in it's manifesto and wins the election, I'm sure you'd be overjoyed if they then remained without a referendum.
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If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.
How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.
17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.
... and here is the 1975 Result with the second biggest ever vote etc ...
Yes (remain in EU) 17,378,581 67.23 %
No ( Leave EEC / EU) 8,470,073 32.77 %
So only 22000 votes less to Remain in EEC/EU than to leave in 2016 and it produced a majority of 34.5 %
The 17.4 mill in 2016 produced only a majority of 4 %
Tory MPs have constantly disrespected the 1975 result even with its majority of 2 to 1 but then ask other MPs now to uphold the will of the british people and respect democracy while they did not give a s**t about a majority 8 times bigger
Think about it
Remainers conveniently forget that when Britain voted in 1975 to remain a member of the EEC — after joining in 1973 — the referendum was based on the lie that membership had no political implications. In fact, the EU’s founders, especially Jean Monnet, saw ever-deeper economic union as a way to forge ever-deeper political union. In 1986, Thatcher signed the Single European Act (which set the objective of establishing a single market), apparently believing that it was only an extension of free trade in goods to services, capital, and labour.
https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/britain-was-never-truly-part-of-the-eu-20180717
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BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred
No. Just a single transferrable vote.
A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.
Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.
Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.
Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.
Add more options and more rounds if you want.
why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?
Stop and think about it. I promise, I'm not trying to con you here (unlike the Leave campaigners). I'm trying to be even-handed. Accept that please and read this.
In 2016, "Leave" got most votes. But "Leave" wasn't a single, defined thing. It covered every possibility from leaving the EU but staying in the CU and SM, to an extreme No Deal.
Anyone who wanted ANY of this kinds of Leave, would have voted Leave.
But here's the rub.
You CANNOT assume that anyone who wanted ONE of those types of Leave would be happy with ALL of them.
There is no way you can assume that someone who wanted a Norway type deal would prefer No Deal to Remain.
THAT was the problem with the 2016 vote. It was shockingly badly designed. And it lumped ALL kinds of Leave into one pot,when we could only ever actually have ONE specific Leave.
The opinion polls have said for three years that, given the choice between No Deal and Remain, there is a big majority for Remain. That can only mean that a lot of people who voted for a soft Brexit in 2016 would prefer Remain over No Deal. And that is why the only fair and logical vote is a single transferrable vote with several options INCLUDING Remain.
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If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.
How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.
17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.
... and here is the 1975 Result with the second biggest ever vote etc ...
Yes (remain in EU) 17,378,581 67.23 %
No ( Leave EEC / EU) 8,470,073 32.77 %
So only 22000 votes less to Remain in EEC/EU than to leave in 2016 and it produced a majority of 34.5 %
The 17.4 mill in 2016 produced only a majority of 4 %
Tory MPs have constantly disrespected the 1975 result even with its majority of 2 to 1 but then ask other MPs now to uphold the will of the british people and respect democracy while they did not give a s**t about a majority 8 times bigger
Think about it
Remainers conveniently forget that when Britain voted in 1975 to remain a member of the EEC — after joining in 1973 — the referendum was based on the lie that membership had no political implications. In fact, the EU’s founders, especially Jean Monnet, saw ever-deeper economic union as a way to forge ever-deeper political union. In 1986, Thatcher signed the Single European Act (which set the objective of establishing a single market), apparently believing that it was only an extension of free trade in goods to services, capital, and labour.
https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/britain-was-never-truly-part-of-the-eu-20180717
This old bullshit again, eh?
The politicians certainly knew, even before we joined the EEC.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/29/no-britain-wasnt-lied-to-when-we-joined-the-eu-we-knew-what-we-w/
And they told the public too.
https://infacts.org/mythbusts/voters-werent-conned-1975-referendum/
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12176234/Nine-deceptions-in-our-history-with-the-EU.html
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Hi BB,
In case you missed BST's post above, here is the important bit,
The opinion polls have said for three years that, given the choice between No Deal and Remain, there is a big majority for Remain. That can only mean that a lot of people who voted for a soft Brexit in 2016 would prefer Remain over No Deal. INCLUDING Remain.
What would you say to that?
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Polls can be misleading. Before the 2016 referendum, polls showed Remain ahead.
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Has the country been warned of the dangers of remaining?
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/remaining-in-the-eu-would-come-at-a-big-price-for-britain/
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BB - why did you vote to remain? You're very anti-EU on here so it does seem odd you voted to stay in.
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Polls can be misleading. Before the 2016 referendum, polls showed Remain ahead.
No BB. They didn't. You're wrong.
In the last three weeks of the campaign there were 31 polls.
15 had Leave ahead
15 had Remain ahead.
1 had the two sides tied.
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https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19 (https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19)
Prime minister Cummings has spoken.
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Polls can be misleading. Before the 2016 referendum, polls showed Remain ahead.
No BB. They didn't. You're wrong.
In the last three weeks of the campaign there were 31 polls.
15 had Leave ahead
15 had Remain ahead.
1 had the two sides tied.
What do you mean I'm wrong? Polls DID show Remain ahead. 15 of them by your own admission. Keep up man.
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seems more than a few people are willing to show their displeasure at Parliament being prorogued
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49534940
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https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19 (https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19)
Prime minister Cummings has spoken.
brexit: take back control from "un-elected bureaucrats" and give it to actual un-elected advisors
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The BB Argument Cycle
1) BB says something that's wrong.
2) Someone points out he's wrong.
3) BB responds with a smart arse response, usually based on syntax, and claims he was right after all, ha-ha-ha.
4) Someone tells him to grow up.
5) BB complains about people being patronising.
6) Someone else explains the original mistake patiently.
7) BB complains about cliques and disciples.
8) Everyone else silently facepalms.
9) Go to 1.
It'll be a lot more efficient in future when 1) happens if we just take 2-9) as read and move straight on to the next 1).
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https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19 (https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1167729471195164672?s=19)
Prime minister Cummings has spoken.
The most surreal part of this is that Cummings was found to be in contempt of Parliament last year for refusing to attend a Select Committee meeting to answer questions on how he broke the law in the 2016 referendum.
Now he's running the country.
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Brexiteers - "It doesn't matter Leave campaign broke the law, etc... Democracy! EU are unelected bureaucrats."
Also Brexiteers - "Heil Cummings!"
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Don't upset bb he has trouble inventing funny lines when he has the monk on.
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The BB Argument Cycle
1) BB says something that's wrong.
2) Someone points out he's wrong.
3) BB responds with a smart arse response, usually based on syntax, and claims he was right after all, ha-ha-ha.
4) Someone tells him to grow up.
5) BB complains about people being patronising.
6) Someone else explains the original mistake patiently.
7) BB complains about cliques and disciples.
8) Everyone else silently facepalms.
9) Go to 1.
It'll be a lot more efficient in future when 1) happens if we just take 2-9) as read and move straight on to the next 1).
No BST, I'm not wrong, and when I prove I'm not wrong you respond with obscenities in the form of personal insults instead of an answer.
In your tiny world of self-righteousness, there's no room for anybody who disagrees with you. You pick fault with anything and everything you can find if someone posts something that goes against your views as if in a state of anger because it defies your infinite wisdom.
On the other hand, you defend fellow Remoaners, and completely ignore them when they are totally wrong. Mind you, in your defence, I suppose you haven't really got that many followers to fall out with.
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Don't upset bb he has trouble inventing funny lines when he has the monk on.
I wonder if I'm psychic? I was thinking about you Syderney when I wrote my last post and up you pop! I think you'll find it's your leader that gets the monk on. It's become a habit with him.
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seems more than a few people are willing to show their displeasure at Parliament being prorogued
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49534940
Wow; there'll be some milk shakes thrown about today. They'll have to make sure they don't get any on their anoraks.
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Back from the anti prorogue demo.
Despite it being a meeting about the threat to democracy we were subjected to plenty of abuse by local Brexit fanatics or Johnson supporters telling us to f**k off to a remain town and worse.
Met Chris Williamson and later he spoke very well about how our society should work. (He should stick to that and leave the anti sematism alone)
What struck me however is the unwavering support Jeremy Corbyn has amongst the faithful.
They seem to have complete trust that he'll take them to victory; and my daughter who's getting to be quite s big noise in the local Labour party warned me not to say ANYTHING against his leadership, when it's as plain as the nose on your face that he's a busted flush with the electorate.
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seems more than a few people are willing to show their displeasure at Parliament being prorogued
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49534940
Wow; there'll be some milk shakes thrown about today. They'll have to make sure they don't get any on their anoraks.
probably better not to get your jokes from bb steve.
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BB - why did you vote to remain? You're very anti-EU on here so it does seem odd you voted to stay in.
I voted remain because I'm a totally selfish bas**rd and I was worried about my pension. However, I needn't have worried it seems because so far it's doing quite well. No doubt someone will pop up and tell I should fear for my future now though!
I went off the idea of supporting remain when leave won. As far as I was concerned we were then all leavers and should have all united in making our departure as successful as possible. Alas, parliament didn't want us to leave, and, because of the support of thousands of bitter remainer losers, they were able to try to block Brexit with confidence in the belief that they are doing it for the people!
I can't be part of that b*llocks.
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Back from the anti prorogue demo.
Despite it being a meeting about the threat to democracy we were subjected to plenty of abuse by local Brexit fanatics or Johnson supporters telling us to f**k off to a remain town and worse.
Met Chris Williamson and later he spoke very well about how our society should work. (He should stick to that and leave the anti sematism alone)
What struck me however is the unwavering support Jeremy Corbyn has amongst the faithful.
They seem to have complete trust that he'll take them to victory; and my daughter who's getting to be quite s big noise in the local Labour party warned me not to say ANYTHING against his leadership, when it's as plain as the nose on your face that he's a busted flush with the electorate.
Good on you TT for getting out there and campaigning, we've already seen an example of boris's idea of democracy when he bought the water cannon costing the community 322k.
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Yes BB
And as has been pointed out a dozen times, May's interpretation of Brexit as a matter to be dealt with ONLY by the Tory party f**ked over any concept of us all uniting.
And then, the ones who are currently running the Cabinet voted down the balls of of a deal that she agreed.
But hey! You ignore all that again, and go on insisting it's Remainers who have f**ked the country over.
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If I've pointed it out a dozen times it's because I've been asked a dozen times.
May's deal was rejected because it was considered a bad one. Do you honestly think Corbyn Monoxide would have supported ANY deal May struck?
I firmly do believe Remainers have played a very big part in trying to f**k the country over, and still are at this precise time.
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If I've pointed it out a dozen times it's because I've been asked a dozen times.
May's deal was rejected because it was considered a bad one. Do you honestly think Corbyn Monoxide would have supported ANY deal May struck?
I firmly do believe Remainers have played a very big part in trying to f**k the country over, and still are at this precise time.
Maybe you're right you are psycho?
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If I've pointed it out a dozen times it's because I've been asked a dozen times.
May's deal was rejected because it was considered a bad one. Do you honestly think Corbyn Monoxide would have supported ANY deal May struck?
I firmly do believe Remainers have played a very big part in trying to f**k the country over, and still are at this precise time.
I think he'd have supported a Norway kind of deal.
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BB
You talk about the country uniting behind Brexit. How were the disparate parts of the country supposed to unite when everyone but the Right of the Tory party were hoyed out of having any input into the debate on what Brexit meant.
I've told you that I would have accepted a Norway-type Brexit. You told me you didn't believe me.
And then you whine about the way you get responded to in here...
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DO
Yep, of course Corbyn would have done, because Brexit is toxic to him. Last thing he wanted was to drag it out for 3 years. It's killing his chances of ever being PM.
It's just wilful idiocy to complain about ANYONE outside of the Right wing of politics for the state we're currently in. Because they are the only ones who have had any input into the process.
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May's deal was rejected because it was considered a bad one. Do you honestly think Corbyn Monoxide would have supported ANY deal May struck?
Yes quite clearly. In 2017-18 he would have supported a CU/SM deal. In the talks early this year he would have supported the same provided it went to a referendum.
None of these at any time would have been acceptable to the ERG which is why they were never offered by May. And why Johnson wont get a deal that is acceptable to them.
It's not Remainers or Corbyn that have stopped May's deal going through but the ERG & DUP.
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BB
You talk about the country uniting behind Brexit. How were the disparate parts of the country supposed to unite when everyone but the Right of the Tory party were hoyed out of having any input into the debate on what Brexit meant.
I've told you that I would have accepted a Norway-type Brexit. You told me you didn't believe me.
And then you whine about the way you get responded to in here...
I've never said the Tories were completely blameless, but I can see where they were coming from if they regarded Corbyn's intellect to be more of a hindrance than a benefit.
And no, I don't believe you'd have accepted a Norway type Brexit because if it was up to you the referendum result wouldn't have stood and all Brexiters would have been locked up!
......Oh, and how dare you accuse ME of whining! You've whined, constantly every day for God knows how long. If there's one thing I'm truly thankful of it is the response I get from you and your cronies. It confirms I'm not one of them, thank Christ.
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How many ways can you say "the vote wasn't binding"
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That first paragraph. Then you bore on about unity.
That second paragraph. Zero point in talking then if you assume I'm lying when I don't match the bogeyman you want me to be.
Enough. Finished. You're an attention black hole like a needy child and I'm done.
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Certain people you can't get unity from. I believe Corbyn is one of them.
Finished? Really? Thank f**k for that.
At least a child isn't expected to be grown up, what's your excuse?
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See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?
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You're way funnier than bb at times bp.
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Certain people you can't get unity from. I believe Corbyn is one of them.
Then how do you explain the cross-party discussions he led last week? Which ended in unanimous agreement.
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Maybe he talked sense for a change?
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Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.
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See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?
Bpool.
I've been to one in Sheffield.
Pretty much every speaker said this was way bigger than Brexit. It's about the principle of Parliamentary democracy.
I would be appalled, and would demonstrate against it if someone tried to pull this sort of stunt to force through a Remain outcome. If you just "meh" to this, you either don't grasp the ramifications or you're really not interested in democracy.
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Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.
And you know that because...?
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See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?
For me it's that Johnson has suspended parliament. He has always said that he want's a deal - well he has to get that deal through parliament and he wont achieve that if parliament isn't sitting.
Which means if he does get a new deal we wont be leaving on 31st October - there is no way (even if the HoC sits continuously though the night and every weekend) that they can pass the legislation required in time.
What would you prefer? That Johnson is right, he can get a new deal and we don't leave the EU on 31st October. Or that he is wrong and we crash out with No Deal on 31st October.
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Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.
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Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.
Then I will ask you the same question Padge.
Because Johnson has prorogued parliament there is no way we can leave on 31st October with a deal.
What would you prefer? He is right and we don't leave on 31st October. Or he is wrong and we do leave on 31st October.
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I don't think they're interested in common sense at all Wilks
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Excellent article about Cummings and his role in this,today.
https://unherd.com/2019/08/dominic-cummings-is-no-chicken/
That's from someone who knows him well, pretty much confirming what I'd pieced together about Cummings. He's fearsomely intelligent, but naively unaware of his own limitations. Give people like that power and it's about as dangerous as you can get. I know that because I used to work for someone very much like that. He played outside the rules, and was too frighteningly sharp to challenge. Which was great when it worked. Then he got something badly wrong and he made a catastrophic mistake that contributed to a lot of people dying. So this kind of situation is seared onto my very existence.
You HAVE to have checks to hold back those who think they are above the rules. That's why I'm terrified by this concept of suspending Parliament. Parliament's job is precisely to put the brakes on and check the consequences of radical ideas.
Back to that article. The author says Cummings is obsessed with game theory. There's a variant of the game of chicken. Two cars driving towards each other. The first one to veer off loses. Game theory says the way you are absolutely certain of winning is by removing your steering wheel and chucking it out the window in a way that the other driver can see it. Then the other driver knows if he doesn't veer off, you're both dead.
The author says that's what Cummings is doing by stopping Parliament from blocking No Deal. He's saying to the EU, "You blink because we're now not able to".
Padge. Listen up now. This is the important but that's obvious to anyone who thinks about the believability of the threat of No Deal.
As the author says, that's ok if both cars are the same size and the risk is equal. What happens if one driver is in a Fiat 500 and the other is in a big f**k off truck? There's less incentive for the truck driver to veer off,because he won't be that badly hurt.
And THAT is the point that some of us have been making for months, and the Leave death cultists here ignore.
British threatening No Deal is not remotely credible because it will hurt us FAR more than it will hurt the EU.
But the problem is, you e now got a fanatic in Cummings, trying to ram it through because he's certain his Game Theory for Dummies understanding is political genius. And to ram it through, he's suspending Parliament.
And you lot on the Leave side are so obsessed with winning at all costs that all this is fine, right?
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A metaphor for brexiter's arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VuMdLm0ccU
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See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?
Bpool.
I've been to one in Sheffield.
Pretty much every speaker said this was way bigger than Brexit. It's about the principle of Parliamentary democracy.
I would be appalled, and would demonstrate against it if someone tried to pull this sort of stunt to force through a Remain outcome. If you just "meh" to this, you either don't grasp the ramifications or you're really not interested in democracy.
I was just asking a question as most I have spoke to have really only mentioned him using it to get brexit thru and wondered if this was what most people thought
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He's using it to get a specific form of Brexit through, that wasn't on the agenda in 2016,that has never commanded anything like a majority in opinion polls.
Parliament has a responsibility to stop that. Johnson and Cummings have suspended Parliament to block that.
It is the biggest democratic outrage in 350 years. If you don't get that, I fear for the future, because any future PM can bypass Parliament. And that's called a dictatorship.
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Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.
I thought they were to stop a no deal Brexit, or at least to allow Parliament to do so.. not to stop Brexit itself.
There is a big difference..
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Albie.
Do you really think that there is a significant proportion of the electorate that decides not to vote as a positive choice, rather than through disconnection? I know that's a touchstone of the Left that there's a side franchised groundswell looking for something to believe in, but is there any evidence of that?
There IS however, a large number of people who didn't vote in 2016 and who would vote overwhelmingly for Remain in any Ref2. It's people between the ages of 18-21.
BST,
I don't know how many chose not to vote, and their reasons.
Neither do you, or anybody else!
That is the point.
Evidence of a cohort looking for a rationale?
I would say the Brexit Party (and Ukip before), fits that bill very well.
Happy to help the confused, that's me!
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Albie.
Strange that you exhort DW to think about those who didn't vote as a deli state conscious choice.
What are we supposed to think about them and what are we supposed to do about them?
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Billy,
The point I was making to DW was that people are allowed to change their mind.....it is central to a democracy.
So if some have changed, or made their mind up on the issue, then it is good if they can say so!
You think that should be through Ref2....I think a GE does the job.
Do about them?
Engage with their concerns constructively!
I agree with your point about the youth coming on to the electoral register.
Why they should be in hock to the codgers who have passed is a mystery!
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Today I took £30 out of the cashpoint.
I only wanted cash. I didn’t want a printed balance or cancel (1 check) nor did I want an on screen balance or cancel (2 checks) nor did I want a receipt or cancel (3 checks).
Three checks and opportunities to change my mind..
For thirty f**king quid..
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Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?
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Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?
yes, why not. if it's theres a potential majority for something that needs changing that can't be agreed on in parliament, I'm all for referendums.
Hence we need a referendum that actually mentions no deal and asks the people if we want it, because it's clear the majority don't.
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Bpool
We've been round this one a dozen times.
One vote.
Have a vote with real options for Leave now we know what they mean.
Single transferrable vote like I said on Friday and a dozen times previously.
Ban all foreign funding with a 10 year prison sentence for anyone who breaks that..
Then implement the result.
What could possibly be more democratic?
If you want The People to decide, it has to be clear, fair and unambiguous.
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The BB Argument Cycle
1) BB says something that's wrong.
2) Someone points out he's wrong.
3) BB responds with a smart arse response, usually based on syntax, and claims he was right after all, ha-ha-ha.
4) Someone tells him to grow up.
5) BB complains about people being patronising.
6) Someone else explains the original mistake patiently.
7) BB complains about cliques and disciples.
8) Everyone else silently facepalms.
9) Go to 1.
It'll be a lot more efficient in future when 1) happens if we just take 2-9) as read and move straight on to the next 1).
No BST, I'm not wrong, and when I prove I'm not wrong you respond with obscenities in the form of personal insults instead of an answer.
In your tiny world of self-righteousness, there's no room for anybody who disagrees with you. You pick fault with anything and everything you can find if someone posts something that goes against your views as if in a state of anger because it defies your infinite wisdom.
On the other hand, you defend fellow Remoaners, and completely ignore them when they are totally wrong. Mind you, in your defence, I suppose you haven't really got that many followers to fall out with.
BB -
As someone who " supposedly " voted Remain but ever since June 23rd 2016 has done nothing else than slag off " Remoaners " at which time of that morning did your full conversion happen ?
YOU see I can easily understand a gradual realisation that perhaps you thought that
' the vote to Leave should be honoured ' or perhaps on balance you ' should have voted to Leave ' ; what I have never understood is your FULL ON Euroscepticism. A veritable Damascene conversion if there ever was one - overnight , complete and possibly more wedded to the cult than even the most honest Eurosceptic on here.
Or and I hate to think of you this way - were you a cuckoo in the Remainer ( or is that Remoaner ) nest ?
Perhaps and even worse somehow , you just didn't want , like the rest of us , to end up on the losing side. This whole episode will set our country back decades in social and moral terms and cost possibly.. £ Trillions.
When is the " UP " for our 'United' Kingdom ever likely to appear now that we have divided our people and set them one against the other seemingly against our closest oìòneighbours that we had begun to live in harmony with.
We would risk our jobs, living & health standards, precious union, safety, security, environment and even our most precious NHS on this bonfire of vanities . Where/ when is there to be a benefit ?
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Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?
... and I would say we have had 2 already. One in 1975 that was convincingly won - Majority to REMAIN just over 33% . Disrespected by Tory MPs and others who kept on crowing till they got a second Referendum in 2016
... and in 2016 having got their way the people said "LEAVE" with a majority of 3 to 4 % (8 times less than 1975)
So I will repeat to my dying day - if a gang of Tory MPs can demand and eventually get a Second Referendum and kill a 33% Majority why cant the minority (48%) on the wrong side do exactly the same thing ?
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Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?
As has been said many times the 2016 referendum wasn't legally binding. So how about having a legally binding one?
First and only. Whoever and whatever outcome wins, it wins, and parliament HAS to enact it.
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Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?
As has been said many times the 2016 referendum wasn't legally binding. So how about having a legally binding one?
First and only. Whoever and whatever outcome wins, it wins, and parliament HAS to enact it.
The argument against that very sensible proposal is always " but we had a democratic vote in 2016 " without any recognition at all that there were many many irregularities about that vote and how it was won.
This is one game of poker where we have gone all in against 2/3 opponents with a hand of only Ace high but the A/K♡ showing face up to the table - a bluff that will and would never have worked
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Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.
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Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.
Aren't both points of that going to happen either way?
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I don't know, but I suspect a second referendum that overturns the first would have far, far greater consequences of unrest than is going on now.
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I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..
That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..
People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?
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Aye. Perfectly reasonable to expect violence as a response to a sensible, clear, unambiguous democratic vote.
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I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..
That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..
People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?
Nobody knows what the outcome of leaving will be. We haven't left yet!
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Give up IDM. It's like a swamp. Doesn't matter what you try to discuss sensibly, you'll get dragged under by responses like that.
This is what happens when folk put not losing an argument above discussing something rationally.
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Aye. Perfectly reasonable to expect violence as a response to a sensible, clear, unambiguous democratic vote.
It was perfectly reasonable to expect a democratic vote to be carried out..........
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And it WOULD have been if it hadn't been treated as another battle in the interminable Tory party civil war.
Don't bother responding. I KNOW your response will be to say it's the fault of Remainers for not doing what they were told. I'll save you the typing.
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So that's your latest excuse for a revote, is it!
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The shit is really hitting the fan now, Gove has not ruled out ignoring legislation passed by Parliament, and the PM is seeking to de select Tories that vote against the Government and Reward those that vote with them. We are now entering a full blown dictatorship
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Filo.
I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.
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The shit is really hitting the fan now, Gove has not ruled out ignoring legislation passed by Parliament, and the PM is seeking to de select Tories that vote against the Government and Reward those that vote with them. We are now entering a full blown dictatorship
Smacks of 1933..
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I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..
That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..
People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?
Nobody knows what the outcome of leaving will be. We haven't left yet!
Sorry but I prefer to know what I am voting for, does that make sense to you.?
With the Brexit referendum, with the remain choice, that was about staying where we are ie that was something defined.
Apart from the headline of being out of the EU, no one knew what leave would mean in practice so folks would be voting for uncertainty..
Stability vs uncertainty.. fuelled by headlines and misinformation..
I always maintain that had leave been defined more clearly, with a minimum set of requirements and conditions set out, the leave majority may have been bigger..
But hey, we’re going round in circles and looking to crash out with no deal just to prove a point..
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IDM
You're penultimate paragraph.
THAT is the thing I never get about the Leave supporters. What on earth do they have to fear from a confirmatory vote on a specific form of Brexit? Especially if there are Draconian penalties on anyone using foreign money to influence the vote?
Why are they so against that? And why do they see only bad faith in anyone who suggests that?
I honestly don't understand it.
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My God could things get worse, 4 years ago we were all gently going about our business - yes we had major worries about the effects of a period of prolonged austerity but we could bloody sleep at night !
We have moved to a point where the executive in this country is allowing some nutter to pull all the strings as we hurtle on and into a period of full blown dictatorship.
This is utter madness yet still some would defend the undemocratic exercise that took place in 2016 !
This is REALLY what it was all about Not Parliamentary sovereignty but as far away from that as it is possible to go nigh on dictatorship.
Still some defend this arguing about the "17.4, the will of the people" - it isn't about any of that this is about Far Right supremacy, a cheap way to control people, a way to use people, it's a game to them and a way to amass fortunes on the backs of your labour.
It isn't liberating for our country or it's people - it's the polar opposite and YET some STILL encourage them with their support.
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Filo.
I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.
Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind
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No probs Filo. Doesn't give me any pleasure. I wish I'd been wrong.
Thing is now, you can only make sense of what's going on if you realise that EVERYTHING about Brexit is about confirming Johnson's position.
Here's my prediction for this week.
1) MPs will take control of the process Mon/Tues and block No Deal.
2) Javid will announce his spending review plans on Weds. He'll have found the magic money tree and he'll shower cash throughout the country. Hound and BB will be appalled because we can't afford to do that. I'm sure they'll tell us.
3) On Thursday PM Cummings (sorry: easy mistake to make) Johnson will announce a General Election. He will frame it as him being the honest servant of the Will of the People, who has been thwarted by undemocratic MPs. He'll have a purge of the Tory party so that they only put up No Deal Death Cult candidates. And he'll probably win.
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No probs Filo. Doesn't give me any pleasure. I wish I'd been wrong.
Thing is now, you can only make sense of what's going on if you realise that EVERYTHING about Brexit is about confirming Johnson's position.
Here's my prediction for this week.
1) MPs will take control of the process Mon/Tues and block No Deal.
2) Javid will announce his spending review plans on Weds. He'll have found the magic money tree and he'll shower cash throughout the country. Hound and BB will be appalled because we can't afford to do that. I'm sure they'll tell us.
3) On Thursday PM Cummings (sorry: easy mistake to make) Johnson will announce a General Election. He will frame it as him being the honest servant of the Will of the People, who has been thwarted by undemocratic MPs. He'll have a purge of the Tory party so that they only put up No Deal Death Cult candidates. And he'll probably win.
Your first point depends on if enough Tories have any b*llocks or principles
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They will. Somewhere between one and two dozen of them.
Really big question is what Corbyn does in response to point 3.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen.
But if Johnson calls a GE, it will deliberately be for after 31 Oct, so that it's impossible to stop No Deal.
Big choice for Corbyn there. What's more important? The GE he craves or stopping No Deal?
By the way Hound. Are you reading? That's me questioning the commitment of the leader of the Labour Party to the policy that I want. Got that?
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Filo.
I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.
Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind
Fair play. Takes some stones to admit that publicly.
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I am going with you there Billy but you have forgotten one major point.
If Johnson calls an election Corbyn can agree to back it with an amendement such as ... providing the government extends the Article 50 leaving date with the EU to 31st December.
If Johnson backs that - Corbyn will win the election. If he doesn't he will run an government that is unable to govern.
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Filo.
I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.
Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind
We have had our differences in the past Filo but I respect the way you have had the balls to admit on here that you got it wrong. Many got it wrong tragically but that was so easy given the spin and mis- direction these fraudsters used over decades . Tbf I too was close to putting my X in the Leave box if for nothing else but patriotic reasons.
Up until the Referendum I always , within reason,trusted our leaders . Summat DIDN'T smell right about this one though
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BST,
"Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen."
Well, the first thing I would do is to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act.....it is a complete dogs dinner and an unwanted complication.
Do that and the cards fall differently. This is as well as trying to pass legislation to prevent no deal.
I would be surprised if Cummings chooses to call an election on Thursday.
It is possible, but difficult to call until the legislation route is resolved.
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I'm with you on the FTPA Albie, but your and my wish to see it gone are irrelevant to the matter in hand.
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Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.
Yeah BB, but according to some of the past sneering on here, it'll only be a few pensioners with zimmer frames, and half a dozen Farage supporters in a pub in Harrogate.
Let's just hope they don't have to witness the real situation.
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They will. Somewhere between one and two dozen of them.
Really big question is what Corbyn does in response to point 3.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen.
But if Johnson calls a GE, it will deliberately be for after 31 Oct, so that it's impossible to stop No Deal.
Big choice for Corbyn there. What's more important? The GE he craves or stopping No Deal?
By the way Hound. Are you reading? That's me questioning the commitment of the leader of the Labour Party to the policy that I want. Got that?
If he's any sense, Corbyn should threaten that Labour will abstain on a vote for a GE unless Brexit is postponed until after said GE. And if Brexit happens before any GE happens, he should carry on abstaining until all the Brexit fallout sticks to Boris.
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SS
A long, long time ago, this place used to be full of robust humour. Given and taken. No grudges.
It's changed out of all recognition over the past few years. Seems to be full of snowflakes these days.
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I'm with you on the FTPA Albie, but your and my wish to see it gone are irrelevant to the matter in hand.
Billy,
Get your thinking cap on, Lad.
Glyn is right, Labour do not need a GE with No Deal option still on the table.
Explained on Ch 4 News by Prof John Curtice (2mins in);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIOXzZJythU
The 2/3 majority clause is a bind both ways, is it not?
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Albie.
I'm at a loss to see your point. Curtice is saying precisely what I said. Labour has the choice not to support calling an Election. It'd be good to get a clear statement on whether Corbyn WOULD refuse to support an Election in those circumstances. I ASSUME they would, but I've assumed a lot about Corbyn's approach towards Brexit over the past 12 months, and regularly been disappointed.
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BST,
I've had more enjoyable visits to the Dentist than making sense of you!
You were saying Cummings will call a GE on Thursday.
This is only possible with 2/3 HoC support.
Where is that 2/3 going to come from?
The easiest way is to reduce the requirement to a simple majority....in which case what is the point of the FTPAct?
To say it "is irrelevant to the matter in hand" is just nuts.
Another fly in the ointment is whether Farrago will stand GE candidates.
A GE before October 31 would mean Johnson has to stand on a specific "No Deal" platform, and stop playing the negotiation card.
Farrago would need to oppose him if not.
Which bounces us back to the calculation of whether the next GE will be a 4 way split, or revert to a more normal distribution.
We don't know yet!
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Albie.
My apologies. I wasn't clear earlier. I meant Cummings will MOVE to call a GE.
I said earlier that changing the FTPA is irrelevant to this debate because it won't happened in the next few weeks.
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Gove backed Johnson for PM (when May won) but then pulled the plug on him as he was not the man for the job
Gove in this latest PM race said to prorogue Parliament would be undemocratic
Gove then has sat in Cabinet that gave prorogue the go ahead
Gove said the suspension of Parliament has NOTHING to do with trying to get Leave over the line
The rest of Parliament (hopefully the majority) says they will push a Bill this week to put make No Deal impossible in law.
Gove will not say whether the Government will actually allow / honour that to become law
Probably Gove speak for no we will not
Odious little sly weasel - and I never thought I would say this but I think I would prefer a night on the town with Barton AND Kitson rather that just 10 minutes in the company of Gove
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Can you turn GOVE into WEASEL by changing just one letter each time. Have a try (There are three changes needed)
GOVE
...
...
...
WEASEL
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Sorry it was a cheap joke. The answer would have been though for anyone remotely interested
GOVE
SLIMY
DUPLICITOUS
F*****G
WEASEL
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Wolf.
I've said before but it bears repeating. An unnamed Cabinet minister earlier this year said of Gove, "His lifelong wrestling match with his conscience is the longest unbeaten run in history."
Brilliant.
Sums up the mendacious little prig perfectly.
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Albie.
I'm at a loss to see your point. Curtice is saying precisely what I said. Labour has the choice not to support calling an Election. It'd be good to get a clear statement on whether Corbyn WOULD refuse to support an Election in those circumstances. I ASSUME they would, but I've assumed a lot about Corbyn's approach towards Brexit over the past 12 months, and regularly been disappointed.
Did you miss my last post about the amendment?
Because it fits in exactly with what we do know about what Corbyn wants. He said the other week he wants to extend Article 50 and then have an election - and thats what he would do if the other parties would support him to be PM after a vote of confidence. He gets the same with an amendment to a call for a GE.
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Wilts.
I didn't see that but it's clearly irrelevant now anyway. The boat that had the idea as a first step of having a VONC leading to Corbyn becoming temporary PM has sailed with no Tory rebel MPs on it.
There's one opportunity to stop No Deal now, which is MPs taking control of the order paper this week and passing legislation instructing Johnson to ask for an extension to A50.
The issue is, what does Corbyn then do if Cummings ignores that and moves for a GE? There's no way a 2/3rds majority would back a GE conditional on A50 extension. So I assume Corbyn has to whip Labour to vote down the move for a GE, otherwise that's No Deal signed and sealed.
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SS
A long, long time ago, this place used to be full of robust humour. Given and taken. No grudges.
It's changed out of all recognition over the past few years. Seems to be full of snowflakes these days.
Yes, I get your drift.
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If Corbyn votes FOR a GE without stipulating that Brexit is postponed, then that's Parliament shut down immediately and No Deal definitely goes through anyway. So if No Deal goes ahead and he really wants to win the next GE, he's got to allow time to let all the Brexit shit fall on Boris's head before the GE.
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I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..
That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..
People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?
Nobody knows what the outcome of leaving will be. We haven't left yet!
Sunny uplands and unicorns for you still as a Remoaner then Bentley ?
Hell's teeth what does it take for you to get concerned - the badging up of immigrants that were once our friends and neighbours perhaps on top of a creeping dictatorial disposition from our great leader Cummings/Johnson.
It will never happen here they said now look at what's happening to European nationals. Patel, Raab and Cummings have yet to get their acts together.....l
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Nobody knows what the outcome of walking across the A1 blindfold will be. Until they try it. And BB'a just the person to show us how safe it really is.
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Hoola. Have no fear about me having no fear, I certainly have fear. I have fear for our country because I doubt we'll ever have democracy as we've known it again.
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Nobody knows what the outcome of walking across the A1 blindfold will be. Until they try it. And BB'a just the person to show us how safe it really is.
If you're smart enough you'd use one of the scores of bridges, Mr Wiggerley, but I can see why you didn't think of that.
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Nobody knows what the outcome of walking across the A1 blindfold will be. Until they try it. And BB'a just the person to show us how safe it really is.
If you're smart enough you'd use one of the scores of bridges, Mr Wiggerley, but I can see why you didn't think of that.
Good luck finding one whilst wearing a blindfold! And avoiding the cars on it as well.
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Now you're trying to make the task more difficult Mr Wiggerley! You didn't say I had to wear a blindfold until I started to walk across now, did you? And you didn't say it couldn't be a footbridge, now did you? And if it was a road bridge, you didn't say I couldn't hold onto the rail, now did you?
It seems to me you're adding obstacles in a determined attempt to stop my success in crossing the A1 by any means, aren't you, Mr Wiggerley!
Not an uncommon tactic of yours is it!
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Now you're trying to make the task more difficult Mr Wiggerley! You didn't say I had to wear a blindfold until I started to walk across now, did you? And you didn't say it couldn't be a footbridge, now did you? And if it was a road bridge, you didn't say I couldn't hold onto the rail, now did you?
It seems to me you're adding obstacles in a determined attempt to stop my success in crossing the A1 by any means, aren't you, Mr Wiggerley!
Not an uncommon tactic of yours is it!
Now that sounds like what Boris is doing
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You are having a laugh, aren't you!
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Of course he isn't joking.
It's a matter of established fact that if Johnson and the ERG hadn't voted against May's deal, we'd be out now.
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https://youtu.be/9w1y-kMPNcM
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Now you're trying to make the task more difficult Mr Wiggerley! You didn't say I had to wear a blindfold until I started to walk across now, did you? And you didn't say it couldn't be a footbridge, now did you? And if it was a road bridge, you didn't say I couldn't hold onto the rail, now did you?
It seems to me you're adding obstacles in a determined attempt to stop my success in crossing the A1 by any means, aren't you, Mr Wiggerley!
Not an uncommon tactic of yours is it!
I never said the exact point where you start from, what your route has to be, or where your end destination is. You don't get to choose any of these for yourself once the task has been decided. All you get told is what you have to do while leaving every other decision to people you don't get to choose either. Exactly like what you maintain about the referendum, in fact.
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Now you're trying to make the task more difficult Mr Wiggerley! You didn't say I had to wear a blindfold until I started to walk across now, did you? And you didn't say it couldn't be a footbridge, now did you? And if it was a road bridge, you didn't say I couldn't hold onto the rail, now did you?
It seems to me you're adding obstacles in a determined attempt to stop my success in crossing the A1 by any means, aren't you, Mr Wiggerley!
Not an uncommon tactic of yours is it!
I never said the exact point where you start from, what your route has to be, or where your end destination is. You don't get to choose any of these for yourself once the task has been decided. All you get told is what you have to do while leaving every other decision to people you don't get to choose either. Exactly like what you maintain about the referendum, in fact.
Don't forget that first request was a non-binding vote. Would you like to have a binding one in which to re-consider?
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Now you're trying to make the task more difficult Mr Wiggerley! You didn't say I had to wear a blindfold until I started to walk across now, did you? And you didn't say it couldn't be a footbridge, now did you? And if it was a road bridge, you didn't say I couldn't hold onto the rail, now did you?
It seems to me you're adding obstacles in a determined attempt to stop my success in crossing the A1 by any means, aren't you, Mr Wiggerley!
Not an uncommon tactic of yours is it!
I never said the exact point where you start from, what your route has to be, or where your end destination is. You don't get to choose any of these for yourself once the task has been decided. All you get told is what you have to do while leaving every other decision to people you don't get to choose either. Exactly like what you maintain about the referendum, in fact.
Don't forget that first request was a non-binding vote. Would you like to have a binding one in which to re-consider?
You'd better ask BB that, he's the one happy to be taking the walk into the unknown.
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Now stop wiggling Mr Wiggerley! You are in no position to say what or where anybody chooses to use their initiative to show how feeble you are.
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Now stop wiggling Mr Wiggerley! You are in no position to say what or where anybody chooses to use their initiative to show how feeble you are.
That's what happens when the person who said how easy it was going to be turns out to have lied to you and moves the goalposts. But you've still got to do it they way you get told how to do it because not to would be undemocratic and go against the will of the people. Just like the referendum. Suck it up!
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No Mr Wiggerley, this is what happens when you make yourself look a fool and try to wiggle out of it.
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Blackmail now:
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/106203/rebel-tory-mps-told-they-will-be-deselected
Maybe Labour should play hardball with the likes of Mann and Flint now!
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No Mr Wiggerley, this is what happens when you make yourself look a fool and try to wiggle out of it.
The ending about being lied to was the end point from the start because I knew you'd wriggle as furiously as you have done to try and look clever - and you've fallen for it good and proper. Even I thought you wouldn't be stupid enough to do so so easily. Well done!
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Mr Wiggerley, you are a laughing stock. You have excelled yourself tonight, and believe me, that takes some doing!
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Mr Wiggerley, you are a laughing stock. You have excelled yourself tonight, and believe me, that takes some doing!
Wriggle, wriggle.
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Eeh lad, you're desperate, aren't you!
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Even more desperate wriggle, wriggle!
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Mr Wiggeley, if you want the last word you've got to be a bit smarter than that. You're rather embarrassing yourself.
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Was there a point to this thread somewhere.?
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Was there a point to this thread somewhere.?
Yes, a very important one.
Perhaps the moderators need to move certain posters back into a safe playpen.
Private messages might be a better way to conduct a childish spat.
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I do apologise. I should have risen above it. Kids eh!
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I have fear for our country because I doubt we'll ever have democracy as we've known it again.
Me too. This EU saga (well past a saga really) has been so devisive and continues that way
MPs on both sides dont answer questions or lie. It was ever thus though I suppose
Personally however I am fed up to the back teeth (well would be if I had any) and imo there has NEVER been anything like this - a complete s*** storm way way WAY beyond anything I can ever remember
... and you are right I dont think either that we will ever see democracy as we have known it ever again. It has changed and perhaps will have changed forever if / whe we ever get through this "mess"
One thing for sure as each Party took office in the past they could would and DID blame the previous Party for all the ills they inherited and by god they are going to have a field day for decades if :
a) we leave the EU eventually or
b) if we stay in the EU eventually
I could write their "excuses" for 20 years whichever way we end up going
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I think people voted due to a variety of reasons and pulling them to bits over it to make yourself feel superior is childish. I have a differing opinion to BST, Glyn etc but enjoy having a debate with them and banter but hope I am always respectful. The levels some of you have descended to in this thread is risible. Wolfie, I understand why you keep bringing 75 in to this but I think its disingenuous and a valid point at the same time. If we still had an EEC as in 75 I think the 2016 would have never taken place. Unfortunately the EU is a massively different beast to the EEC.
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The problem is Ldr that as this situation goes on discussions are getting more and more nasty and personal,debate has slowed down and insults start taking over...On this board most are Labour remainers and a differing opinion is met with a gang up approach by some..
However in the interests of balance I also frequent a board which is the opposite,mainly Tory leavers and exactly the same thing has happened there,what started off as debate has also turned into open hostility towards people with a differing opinion...
This weekend we have had marches organised by momentum against the parliament being Prorogued in the defence of democracy and that's everybodys right..Yet we've seen people with a opposite view being called Nazi scum,pushed off the streets,told they need gassing,shot etc etc...I find that all a bit strange from a group that is suddenly showing all the ingredients of the thing it accuses it's opponent of...Facism....
The whole thing is getting nastier and nastier from both sides sadly..
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So I see Johnson was supposed to be meeting with Tory rebels today. They wanted clear and unambiguous evidence that he was genuinely trying to negotiate a deal with Brussels.
He's cancelled the meeting and announced that they will be booted out of the party unless they support him.
Meanwhile, the EU has said that in the 6 weeks since he became PM, Johnson has given no indication of what he would want in a new deal.
Does ANYONE still believe this charade that he's genuinely trying to negotiate with the EU?
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So I see Johnson was supposed to be meeting with Tory rebels today. They wanted clear and unambiguous evidence that he was genuinely trying to negotiate a deal with Brussels.
He's cancelled the meeting and announced that they will be booted out of the party unless they support him.
Meanwhile, the EU has said that in the 6 weeks since he became PM, Johnson has given no indication of what he would want in a new deal.
Does ANYONE still believe this charade that he's genuinely trying to negotiate with the EU?
Probs the same number who believe the protests this weekend were about democracy
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Were you at one of those protests Ldr?
Just wondering how you form your opinion.
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Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else
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There were certainly some leave voters interviewed on the news, so I wouldn't say it entirely accurate, but the same report did state the vast majority appeared to be pro EU.
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It's certainly morally if not legally wrong, as is disregarding the referendum. Unfortunately I think people are too entrenched in positions right and wrong are irrelevant to them
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Must you have actually been present at an event to comment on it?
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No BB but I think it's a fair question from BST as online and media can distort facts
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Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else
That wasn't the theme of the one in Sheffield. The key speakers ALL said that Brexit is secondary to the undermining of democracy.
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No BB but I think it's a fair question from BST as online and media can distort facts
If that's the case, even if you were there you would have to ask each individual in order to form an opinion to justify your case to BST.
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Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else
That wasn't the theme of the one in Sheffield. The key speakers ALL said that Brexit is secondary to the undermining of democracy.
Curious BST, was any mention of parliament treating the voters of the UK with contempt by disregarding their view expressed in the referendum? I have no issue if a constituency mp in a remain area votes to frustrate Brexit but those in leave areas doing so is wrong
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Ldr.
I for one am not disregarding the 2016 referendum.
I am, however, consistently pointing out the problems with that Referendum, from the stupidly simplistic question, through the demonstrable lies and deception that the Leave case was based on, to the ongoing court criminal cases about funding and illegal social media profiling.
I've not heard anyone sensibly address any of those points.
In that context, it is nonsense to see the 2016 vote as sacrosanct.
I'd like to see it repeated with those three issues properly addressed. As I've been saying for months. I fail to see how anyone can consider that undemocratic.
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So you were one of those present that wants another referendum for a start!
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Ldr.
I appreciate your stance, but here's the bit where I run into a brick wall.
May's deal was already at the far end of abruptness of break with the EU that was discussed during the 2016 Ref campaign.
Johnson and the ERG voted it down because it wasn't a hard enough Brexit.
If this was REALLY about getting us out of the EU, we could have been out in March. By voting against May's deal, Johnson, Raab, Patel, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them lost any moral authority to complain about MPs blocking Brexit.
What that group is now doing is a historically unprecedented closure of Parliament, to enable them to ram through a No Deal Brexit that was never even discussed as a remote possibility in 2016.
It really takes some mental gymnastics to accuse those who are against this of being anti-democratic.
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Ldr.
I for one am not disregarding the 2016 referendum.
I am, however, consistently pointing out the problems with that Referendum, from the stupidly simplistic question, through the demonstrable lies and deception that the Leave case was based on, to the ongoing court criminal cases about funding and illegal social media profiling.
I've not heard anyone sensibly address any of those points.
In that context, it is nonsense to see the 2016 vote as sacrosanct.
I'd like to see it repeated with those three issues properly addressed. As I've been saying for months. I fail to see how anyone can consider that undemocratic.
Take your points on board and agree with some.
Question to you back, what message does it send that a referendum was done, all parties agreed to abide by it, all stood for a GE stating we would leave, continued to state that and yet still, it doesn't happen.
As a side note, I wonder if those who voted down May's deal think it was a good move, particularly those in the opposition... If they really wanted to leave with a deal was it so bad?
Furthermore, why is there talk labour won't now back an election having called for it for years, what are they scared of if they think their message is correct?
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BFYP.
I've commented enough on what I think about Tory party behaviour over Brexit. As I've said, the 2016 vote was never about Brexit. It was about who rules the Tory party. See it in those terms, and the ERG's refusal to honour their manifesto in March makes perfect sense.
On the Labour side, you need to know what their manifesto said in 2017. It said they respected the 2016 result, but would not support a Brexit which left us economically weaker.
Corbyn argued strongly for us to Leave, starting from 7am on the day after the Ref. But he was totally excluded from negotiations on Brexit by May. The resulting deal could not possibly be supported by Labour because it gave no legal assurances about workers' rights and environmental controls. Certainly Labour cannot possibly support No Deal.
If May had had an inclusive approach to interpreting Brexit in 2017,we'd be out by now. If the ERG had supported the deal that May unilaterally came up with,we'd be out by now. They are the ones who hold responsibility for this f**k up.
On the GE, the reason Labour cannot support one now, us that if we DO call a GE, we'll be leaving with No Deal, because there will be no Parliamentary time to stop it. That trumps everything
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Ldr.
I appreciate your stance, but here's the bit where I run into a brick wall.
May's deal was already at the far end of abruptness of break with the EU that was discussed during the 2016 Ref campaign.
Johnson and the ERG voted it down because it wasn't a hard enough Brexit.
If this was REALLY about getting us out of the EU, we could have been out in March. By voting against May's deal, Johnson, Raab, Patel, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them lost any moral authority to complain about MPs blocking Brexit.
What that group is now doing is a historically unprecedented closure of Parliament, to enable them to ram through a No Deal Brexit that was never even discussed as a remote possibility in 2016.
It really takes some mental gymnastics to accuse those who are against this of being anti-democratic.
Not 100% unprecedented, sure Major did it too....
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I watched some of the demonstrations on the news and with respect i do take issue with the fact this is solely about Democracy with regards
parliament.
If we are all honest, we all know that if this would have happened without Brexit as the backdrop, their wouldn't have been the demonstrations we have seen this weekend.
Also on the clips i've seen both on the news and the rather sad ones on social media some of the placards on display were about stopping brexit rather than parliament being prorogued..
As for the GE,the sole reason labour have remained true to form by flip flopping their policy is they know if they dont stop coming out without a deal they cant win..Again the latest Polls show the Torys and BJ increasing their lead over Labour by a ever increasing margin..
The Turkeys wont vote for xmas,they need to stop it to split the vote.If that no deal goes through the Brexit Party wont stand against the Tory's and Labour simply need them too to stand any chance of winning.And lets face it thats what it's all about for these party's..Manouvering themselves to pick up the pieces..
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Ldr.
No PM has EVER closed down Parliament to prevent the House of Commons voting on a matter of vital national interest. That is why it is historically unprecedented.
This is WAY bigger than Brexit. It's about whether our democratic systems actually operate or not. You've got senior cabinet ministers openly discussing that they might just ignore Parliamentary votes. Do you not appreciate how dangerous that is?
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BST, pretty sure I said its immoral earlier. Your paragraphs on how the process has been abused by MPs is making my point for me. However you view the referendum question it is what it is and the electorate voted to leave the EU no questions about how. For parliament to then treat the electorate with the contempt it has for political gain is beneath contempt. These are people who want to rule us like an elite, and let's not pretend labour are any better, Corbyn would love nothing more than to seize power under this guise of a temporary pm
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Ldr.
That "we voted Leave, no questions about how" line is not acceptable is it.
The official Vote Leave campaign said that we would not even begin the process of leaving without a deal. Anyone in the Remain side who pointed out the possibility of the scenario we are now in was shouted down as a Project Fear monger.
You cannot now retrospectively impose the view that this was all clear and obvious at the time
This is too important to treat like that. We're not talking about membership rules for the Bowls Club. This is the single most important decision of the past 3 generations and you cannot brush under the carpet the way that the Leave side campaigned as though it were some minor technicality.
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That's not what I'm saying as you well know. It is what it is and we deal with it. What I see as the greatest problem is parliament thinking it can dismiss the will of the people as easy as it has. Agree with it or not (and you are tying yourself in knots over the campaign and question, I understand your need to not accept how people could have a differing opinion to you unless you convince yourself everyone was lied to) it was a binary question. Parliament on all sides of the house has acted with the greatest contempt and you dont seem to acknowledge that as an issue
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Thought Clem Attlee prorogued parliament in 1948, to get the Labour governments bills through the house.
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Ldr.
But as I've said, it is PRECISELY the people now running the Govt who are the ones who stopped us leaving in March! And they are now trying to take us out on conditions that they insisted in 2016 would never arise.
How can they now claim that they are respecting the 2016 Ref result?
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Glos.
That was because the unelected House of Lords was trying to delay a policy passed by the House of Commons. That is a totally different issue.
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Ldr.
But as I've said, it is PRECISELY the people now running the Govt who are the ones who stopped us leaving in March! And they are now trying to take us out on conditions that they insisted in 2016 would never arise.
How can they now claim that they are respecting the 2016 Ref result?
They are still respecting the 2016 Ref result, but not on the terms struck in May's deal. They didn't vote against it because they wanted to force another referendum and remain like Corbyn's lot did.
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So it’s ok for Tories to vote against May’s government, but not against Johnson’s.?
Support us or get the sack.?
Sorry but what BJ and his cabinet are doing is deliberately stifling parliamentary process, and goes way beyond any Brexit issues..
It’s turning out democracy into a dictatorship, from a PM the public didn’t elect..
There’s logic in there somewhere but I can’t see it..
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Given Corbyn has said this morning that he'll back a GE, I suspect BJ will push for that this week and then we all get our say.
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Given Corbyn has said this morning that he'll back a GE, I suspect BJ will push for that this week and then we all get our say.
there's a lot of hard negotiations to be done by labour surely to agree to GE, I read just now that the govt needs 2/3 support but can change the date once set it's set without their support???
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BFYP
Corbyn said the order of importance is 1) Block No Deal.
2) Have a GE.
No 2 without 1, as it should be, and as Labour said in the 2017 GE.
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And this will be BJ's ploy.
1. No deal is blocked.
2. Blame Labour for blocking Brexit etc etc in GE aim to take the majority.
3. Get the majority and push through what he wants with mandate for the next 5 years.
It's arrogant, a gamble and tricky, but feels like his intention.
It's almost winner takes all, win it he has power, lose he's done. I wonder if he's done the maths on another hung parliament though...
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BJ may want a GE called to allow for a further shut down leading to no deal brexit by default..
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WHY do they keep playing games - trying to trick their way to where they want to be - playing a game of chess and all the time people get more and more p****d off
They are supposed to be running the country for goodness sake
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They couldn’t run for a bus..
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Glos.
That was because the unelected House of Lords was trying to delay a policy passed by the House of Commons. That is a totally different issue.
Same problem, just different house causing that problem. Same result, a prorogued parliament
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That's exactly it BFYP
Now we're finally at the endgame of the whole process. Nothing to do with Brexit, that's just the means. The end was always Johnson as PM with a majority..
Up to the country to decide if they really want to give power to an amoral, unprincipled serial liar.
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That's exactly it BFYP
Now we're finally at the endgame of the whole process. Nothing to do with Brexit, that's just the means. The end was always Johnson as PM with a majority..
Up to the country to decide if they really want to give power to an amoral, unprincipled serial liar.
Or to Boris Johnson 😂😂
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Glos.
Yes but totally different circumstances. The Lords couldn't have blocked Labour's policy in 1948. Only delayed it. And the crucial difference was that Labour's policy had overwhelming support in the democratically elected Commons. Johnson's policy doesn't.
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Good one Ldr.
I don't recall Corbyn having twice been sacked for lying through his teeth, lying about the existence of a love child, leaving his (3rd) wife for a younger woman when she had cancer, conspiring with a friend to have a journalist assaulted, spending a decade as a journalist making up stories about the EU, undermining the democratic processes of Parliament....etc, etc.
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Maybe not, but he does sympathize with terrorists to the point of supporting them publicly whilst they were killing our own people (IRA) invited them to tea in the HoC (Hamas and Hezbollah) by your own admission silent on Russian atrocities in Syria. Unable (unwilling) to control the antisemitism within labour, again happy to let the Momentum bully boys hound out good mps, drag the party to the extremes of the spectrum. Are you seriously saying either man is fit to lead this country?
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Thats the problem though isn’t it.?
Enough people won’t want Corbyn, and plenty won’t want Boris..
It’s like that episode of South Park, where the election candidates are a giant douche and a turd sandwich..
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Sadly true, the only people In politics these days are scum on the take
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That's exactly it BFYP
Now we're finally at the endgame of the whole process. Nothing to do with Brexit, that's just the means. The end was always Johnson as PM with a majority..
Up to the country to decide if they really want to give power to an amoral, unprincipled serial liar.
It just feels like a huge gamble as surely needs a huge swing in plenty Labour areas or the hope is the left vote will split enough to give them seats. I can't see it but there's no doubt that the guys running the Tories right now are pretty good at this stuff and they wouldn't take a risk without confidence.
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BFYP
Corbyn said the order of importance is 1) Block No Deal.
2) Have a GE.
No 2 without 1, as it should be, and as Labour said in the 2017 GE.
Billy,
Alongside point 1 there is also the need for a delay to the deadline.
No deal ruled out goes hand in glove with this.
Labour and the dissident coalition should deny the 2/3 majority by holding back (some will abstain), with a view to a VoC after the other measures are in place.
5 weeks needed for a GE run-in, so the delay needs to ensure that a GE cannot be held until the extension has kicked in.
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Maybe not, but he does sympathize with terrorists to the point of supporting them publicly whilst they were killing our own people (IRA) invited them to tea in the HoC (Hamas and Hezbollah) by your own admission silent on Russian atrocities in Syria. Unable (unwilling) to control the antisemitism within labour, again happy to let the Momentum bully boys hound out good mps, drag the party to the extremes of the spectrum. Are you seriously saying either man is fit to lead this country?
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, no?
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But aren’t the IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah all prescribed terrorist organisations in this country, which if I’m right make them terrorist and not freedom fighters
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But aren’t the IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah all prescribed terrorist organisations in this country, which if I’m right make them terrorist and not freedom fighters
You're going off script :lol:
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Maybe not, but he does sympathize with terrorists to the point of supporting them publicly whilst they were killing our own people (IRA) invited them to tea in the HoC (Hamas and Hezbollah) by your own admission silent on Russian atrocities in Syria. Unable (unwilling) to control the antisemitism within labour, again happy to let the Momentum bully boys hound out good mps, drag the party to the extremes of the spectrum. Are you seriously saying either man is fit to lead this country?
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, no?
[/quoteMaybe not, but he does sympathize with terrorists to the point of supporting them publicly whilst they were killing our own people (IRA) invited them to tea in the HoC (Hamas and Hezbollah) by your own admission silent on Russian atrocities in Syria. Unable (unwilling) to control the antisemitism within labour, again happy to let the Momentum bully boys hound out good mps, drag the party to the extremes of the spectrum. Are you seriously saying either man is fit to lead this country?
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, no?
So can you clarify you would be happy with someone who publicly supported those who were killing British troops as pm?. Please answer yes or no, no deflection along the lines of, "if it's a choice between" or "hes better than" please, just a simple yes or no. For the record I say no, I also say no to Johnson
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Certainly if can tell me why Britain were in Ireland at all.
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Yes or no, stop deflecting
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No I'm not deflecting which came first England's occupation of Ireland and the subjugation of it's population or the IRA.
I really do not want to open up this to a general thread.
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Classic deflecting, yes or no
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Classic deflecting, yes or no
I do not want to hijack this topic and trivialise such a subject so I will not respond further if you wish to claim a victory then do so, enjoy it
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Classic deflecting, yes or no
I do not want to hijack this topic and trivialise such a subject so I will not respond further if you wish to claim a victory then do so, enjoy it
More classic deflecting
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Spokesman for the Brexit Party on R5 tonight.
Remember Farage saying how we should aim to be like Norway? Well scrap that. His take was that any deal that Johnson could cut (which would be a far harder separation than Norway has from the EU) is unacceptable and worse than staying in. They will only accept No Deal.
Don't ANYONE on here tell me that the Brexit Party are committed to the democratic sanctity of the 2016 result. Farage NEVER campaigned for No Deal. He said that anyone who suggested we'd leave without a deal was engaging in Project Fear. He's changed his position by a million miles since 2016. That alone invalidates the Referendum result.
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Or Farage himself on his LBC show (no I didn't listen)
Johnson's speech tonight has made it very unlikely there will be a pact with the Tories. The Brexit Party want a No Deal but the speech has made it clear Johnson wants a deal.
How's the war gaming going Dominic?
https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1168585237036752896
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Fascinating how Farage is paid by LBC to use LBC as his own propaganda channel.
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Maybe not, but he does sympathize with terrorists to the point of supporting them publicly whilst they were killing our own people (IRA) invited them to tea in the HoC (Hamas and Hezbollah) by your own admission silent on Russian atrocities in Syria. Unable (unwilling) to control the antisemitism within labour, again happy to let the Momentum bully boys hound out good mps, drag the party to the extremes of the spectrum. Are you seriously saying either man is fit to lead this country?
Really? When did Corbyn publicly support the IRA?
Not Sinn Fein, or detainees, or the Guilford 4 or Birmingham 6 or condemned the government policy in Northern Ireland but the actual activities of the IRA. When did Corbyn publicaly support the IRA?
This might help you https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland
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BST are you really that desperate to paint the referendum as invalid, you look down that much on your fellow voters? One pillock changing what he says makes just that, one pillock.
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I'm still shaking my head to see why if the vote was valid (not binding) and the same party that called the vote are still in power 3 years later and no other party has stood in their way why we haven't got brexit over the line, oh I forgot they shot themselves in the arse.
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Wilts as below, comrade Sydney, guess we have to draw our own conclusions as to where your sympathies lie.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/exclusive-mi5-opened-file-jeremy-corbyn-amid-concerns-ira-links/
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I've got about 12 files in the shed plus about 40 in my specially built filing cabinet of which some are as yet empty.
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BST are you really that desperate to paint the referendum as invalid, you look down that much on your fellow voters? One pillock changing what he says makes just that, one pillock.
Ldr.
Are you saying that Farage had no bearing on the Referendum result?
And no. I do not look down on Leave voters. It's Farage who looks down on them. He holds them in contempt if he thinks he can flip his opinion from 2016 to now and they won't care.
It's Gove who holds the Leave voters in contempt if he could say this in 2016 and now support No Deal.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tompeck/status/1168479741491462144
Don't point the finger at me with zero evidence. Look at who REALLY despises the Leave voters' intelligence.
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By the way, if Labour support a GE which will be ONLY about Brexit, this is the scale of the problem they have.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/are-you-satisfied-or-dissatisfied-with-the-way-jeremy-corbyn-is-handling-britains-exit-from-the-european-union/
Those who insist that the country will flock to Corbyn as they did in 2017 are on a different planet. This GE will be a totally different beast. He won't have a PM who is unable to function in public. He won't have an LD party on life support. And most critically, he won't be able to neutralise the issue of Brexit and focus on other issues.
It's some task ahead.
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PS Ldr.
Add Dominic Cummings to the list of folk who thinks Leave voters are too thick to remember what Leave campaigners were saying in 2016.
This is what he said then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/robtelford/status/1168486845136691200
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Shall we continue?
Cummings also said this in 2016.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jamesevison/status/1168541660537610240
How thick do you think he reckons Leave voters are?
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Then of course there was David Davis.
https://mobile.twitter.com/cookiris14/status/1168578320864284675
He thinks the Leave voters are too thick to remember him saying this.
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He shares your views then, doesn't he?
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So BST, in short we are all f**ked regardless of what happens at this point
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Wilts as below, comrade Sydney, guess we have to draw our own conclusions as to where your sympathies lie.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/exclusive-mi5-opened-file-jeremy-corbyn-amid-concerns-ira-links/
I will repeat again - when did Corbyn publicaly support the IRA? Not - what has the Daily Telegraph written about Corbyn - when did Corbyn publicaly support the IRA.
You can deduce all you want to LDR. I have written before about my near miss with an IRA bomb and my work promoting the British Army.
Thing is I am glad there is a peace agreement in NI and that the days of violence are over. You appear not to be.
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Not too sure what you base that last sentence on
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Ldr.
We certainly are if people refuse to consider who benefits from the Brexit process, and just use it like some do (and I'm certainly not pointing the finger at you here) to indulge themselves in what our American friends call Lib-baiting.
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I guess I'm just seeing things optimistically rather than pessimistically then
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I'm an inveterate optimist generally. But seeing people just shrug their shoulders at the obvious deception on SUCH an important issue makes me question that.
Seeing people shrug their shoulders at the fact that we've already lost well over £100bn in economic output due to the massive slowdown since 2016 worries me.
Seeing people shrug their shoulders at the scale of the crisis that No Deal would bring, frankly terrifies me. Because it shows that people can be persuaded to take decisions that are massively against their interests. And if that becomes embedded then we truly are f**ked.
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It's quite amusing really. The same posters that preach about positivity and optimism in this forum's football section, expressing their disgust at other posters negativity, are the very same posters that preach negativity on this off-topic forum, expressing their disgust at other posters positivity!
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BB, the football is an entertainment, a distraction from the perils of everyday life which we all love and sometimes despair.
But it is far less important that something like Brexit. If you can’t see that, I would struggle to take you seriously..
The issue now isn’t about “stopping Brexit” - certainly not for me, its about ensuring Brexit happens for the best interests of the country and definitely not No Deal. That would be a disaster..
But anyone opposing the process Boris is clearly trying to force through is accused of only wanting to stop Brexit, period, and for ignoring the 17.4 million leave voters.. I’m sorry but that’s b*llocks..
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IDM. Of course, showing support for Rovers is far less serious than showing no support for democracy, that goes without saying and is not my point.
The issue IS about stopping Brexit for many remoaners, and some of them are on this forum in my opinion.
Like I keep saying, I don't believe many people want a no-deal conclusion, but I do believe that the threat to walk away from the EU's 'final offer' is a pivotal part of the negotiations. Take away that threat and the EU hold a far superior hand.
You might think that's b*llocks. I don't.
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Even since we told the EU that we were leaving and all of the b*llocks that went with that 'hand' we shot ourselves in the groin early in the piece and now cunnings-boris is trying desperately trying to create the illusion that we have 4 aces when in fact we have 4 arses. Cameron, May, Johnson and Cummings.
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.......And an even bigger arse, Corbyn, in the pile ready to be picked up.
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Philip Hammond on R4 this morning.
Says he's repeatedly asked Johnson for evidence of what he's tabled as an alternative deal to the EU and had no response.
Angela Merkel agreed with Johnson 2 weeks ago that there were 30 days left to sort out a new deal. This is the 12th day. She said yesterday that no proposals had been brought forward by Johnson.
Draw your own conclusions about whether Johnson, a man with a track record as long as several arms of blithely lying, is really trying to negotiate a new deal. Or is he's playing political games for the upcoming GE, conning people into his line that he's negotiating flexibly and imaginatively but the EU and Parliament are blocking him.
Tough call int it?
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Don't you love it when desperately loyal souls put their faith in those that have brought the UK to the edge of the cliff and caused the loss of 100m in the process and are still not able to tell us what they want or what their actions will bring but still try the hackneyed ''look over there'' tactics.
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More classic deflecting!
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More heads in the sand
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IDM. Of course, showing support for Rovers is far less serious than showing no support for democracy, that goes without saying and is not my point.
The issue IS about stopping Brexit for many remoaners, and some of them are on this forum in my opinion.
Like I keep saying, I don't believe many people want a no-deal conclusion, but I do believe that the threat to walk away from the EU's 'final offer' is a pivotal part of the negotiations. Take away that threat and the EU hold a far superior hand.
You might think that's b*llocks. I don't.
It’s not just a threat though, it is more reality that Boris and his cronies want no deal. He says not, but his actions show otherwise..
How can the same politicians who rebelled against May now determine that their colleagues cannot oppose the government for fear of the sack,?
The government fixing parliamentary procedures.?
Smacks of 1933 and is very frightening..
Yes I would prefer if we stayed in the EU but realistically the best option is to leave with a deal - politically if not economically..
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It is Boris's job to look like he wants no deal. Have you ever played Poker? Do you understand why the best bluffers are the best players?
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Philip Hammond on R4 this morning.
Says he's repeatedly asked Johnson for evidence of what he's tabled as an alternative deal to the EU and had no response.
Angela Merkel agreed with Johnson 2 weeks ago that there were 30 days left to sort out a new deal. This is the 12th day. She said yesterday that no proposals had been brought forward by Johnson.
Draw your own conclusions about whether Johnson, a man with a track record as long as several arms of blithely lying, is really trying to negotiate a new deal. Or is he's playing political games for the upcoming GE, conning people into his line that he's negotiating flexibly and imaginatively but the EU and Parliament are blocking him.
Tough call int it?
This blows the bluff wide open, trying to insist that if no-deal was taken from the table the EU would see our cards ........................ they can see we don't have any cards by the mere fact we have not offered up anything different to that already on the table.
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You show me yours and I'll show you mine!
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You show me yours and I'll show you mine!
Everyone says you don't have one, classic deflecting, not discussing the content
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You know all about that, don't you! You have a deflect defect!
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This is the paper for Scholarship applications for Eton from 2011.
Remember, Eton is Johnson's old school.
Look at Question 1c.
https://t.co/JipHMq1H83?amp=1
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I'd love to read your answer BST 😁
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"They were rebel MPs from my own party, it had to be done."
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I couldn't do it Ldr, because I don't believe in it. The point is, that place requires you to be able to convincingly persuade (or "dupe" if you prefer) people through clever use of words. Whether you agree with what you are arguing or not.
Do you now get why Johnson wrote two passionate articles at the start of the Ref campaign; one wholeheartedly arguing for Leave, the other, equally stridently saying Remain was in the country's best interests? And then he binned one and went balls out with the other.
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Mate, I dont trust any politician as they are all in it for themselves, I dont trust media as everyone has a paymaster. I trust what I experience
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But with respect, that's just a cop out Ldr.
It's a logical nonsense to suggest that everyone is equally culpable. I agree that we have a generation of poor quality politicians, but it is still the responsibility of grown up electors to judge between them. You are going to have SOMEONE as PM at any point in time so you need to make a rational judgement on which of an imperfect lot you prefer.
Some bend the truth occasionally. Some lie 5 times before getting out of (someone else's) bed.
Personally, I would take Corbyn before Johnson every time. God knows I don't like Corbyn and I think he needs guiding and constraining because I don't think he's actually very smart. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I think he's probably less intellectually equipped to be PM than any PM we've ever had, with the possible exception of May. But what he isn't is a venal, amoral liar who puts his personal ambition above all else. And I don't have a choice of anyone else.
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I don't currently feel I could vote for any party atm, hoping there would be and independent on the ballot locally or I'll just spoil the paper. If you have seen Fahrenheit 11/9 about politics in the US it will give you an idea. Non voters are in effect the US's biggest party and I feel that's the way it could end up over here. Make enough people think their vote doesnt count and eventually they will give up. Apathy then rules
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But that's the whole point. NO politician is ever exactly what anyone wants. We have to make a choice from imperfect (often VERY imperfect) alternatives.
It's a very dangerous road when intelligent people just absent themselves from making that choice.
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Personally, I would take Corbyn before Johnson every time. God knows I don't like Corbyn and I think he needs guiding and constraining because I don't think he's actually very smart. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I think he's probably less intellectually equipped to be PM than any PM we've ever had, with the possible exception of May. But what he isn't is a venal, amoral liar who puts his personal ambition above all else. And I don't have a choice of anyone else.
I would question if anyone knows enough in full of the parties' policies to make an informed choice right now, I certainly don't and I have a limited interest in it.
I do though think that Boris is making a big error, I don't think he'll get a solid majority when you throw in the Lib Dem, SNP effect I feel he'll lose more there than he'll gain and we'll see a Labour-Lib coalition personally. What he may play in an election is throwing the gauntlet at Labour, are they remain or leave? The Lib Dems have been pretty clear they're remain in all circumstances, referendum or not. I suspect Corbyn will side with going for a second referendum. The only so called coup IMO is the move to stop Brexit hence BJ's selling point, but is it enough? I'm doubtful.
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https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1168641286292824064
Well who'd have thought it eh?
Johnson's Rasputin admits that the line about Johnson re-negotiating with the EU is a sham.
See, if you're going to play poker, you don't just bluff and bluff and bluff. You need to be able to predict what hand your opponent has, and what he'll do.
As I've been saying for months, the idea that Johnson could or would be able to negotiate ANYTHING with the EU by threatening to cripple OUR economy if they didn't give us what we wanted is a concept so comprehensively stupid that I really do fear for anyone who ever bought into it. And now we have it confirmed that it was a "sham" all along.
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Talking about Dominic Cummings holding Leave voters' intelligence in contempt, here he is in his own words saying how the Vote Leave campaign worked.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BazzieSmith/status/1168664085325582336
Two things he doesn't say, but which are facts.
1) There is an ongoing criminal investigation into what he did here. The Met Police and National Crime Agency have sat on it for nearly 18 months. Meanwhile he is running the country.
2) Those 1.5bn ads he sent to 7million profiled voters. They were mostly those lies about the £350bn and Turks getting the right to come and live next door to you. He's said elsewhere that the purpose of those wasn't to change people's minds. It was to enrage people who wouldn't normally vote into getting out and voting. That was the purpose of the profiling. To find people who came from demographics that disliked the EU but we're politically disengaged.
I can we'll see why you have disdain for politics Ldr, when the result of doing this is that you get to run the country.
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Notice it is saying that Johnson had confirmed plans to suspend Parliament just a few days before he said it was something he would never do. Oh and of course then he did
If he was Pinocchio and laid on his back his nose would be higher that "Big Ben"
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Yes DW who in their right mind would have anything to do with johnson, I'd imagine St Helena would be an appropriate retirement spot for him.
''Johnson decided to suspend parliament 'two weeks before asking Queen', PM ticked secret memo while refusing to confirm decision in public, Edinburgh court hears''
Tw@t personified.
''In public Johnson was then refusing to confirm he planned to do so but he ticked the secret memo and said “yes”, before sending Da Costa a handwritten note the following day, where he criticised the convention where MPs return for several weeks of Commons business after the summer holidays before breaking again for conference season.
He told Da Costa the “whole September session [at Westminster] is a rigmarole introduced to show the public that MPs are earning their crust. I don’t see anything especially shocking about this prorogation.”
This exchange of memos came 12 days before Johnson’s privy councillors met the Queen at Balmoral to ask her to prorogue parliament, on the grounds he wanted to present a significant new legislative programme on 14 October''
this is unbelievable, you poor sods so desperate you would support this piece of ----
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/03/johnson-suspend-parliament-before-asking-queen-court-hears
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Yes DW who in their right mind would have anything to do with johnson, I'd imagine St Helena would be an appropriate retirement spot for him.
''Johnson decided to suspend parliament 'two weeks before asking Queen', PM ticked secret memo while refusing to confirm decision in public, Edinburgh court hears''
Tw@t personified.
''In public Johnson was then refusing to confirm he planned to do so but he ticked the secret memo and said “yes”, before sending Da Costa a handwritten note the following day, where he criticised the convention where MPs return for several weeks of Commons business after the summer holidays before breaking again for conference season.
He told Da Costa the “whole September session [at Westminster] is a rigmarole introduced to show the public that MPs are earning their crust. I don’t see anything especially shocking about this prorogation.”
This exchange of memos came 12 days before Johnson’s privy councillors met the Queen at Balmoral to ask her to prorogue parliament, on the grounds he wanted to present a significant new legislative programme on 14 October''
this is unbelievable, you poor sods so desperate you would support this piece of ----
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/03/johnson-suspend-parliament-before-asking-queen-court-hears
Which poor sods?
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all those poor sods that support him, it was right there!
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Tory abstainers have also been threatened with the sack tonight
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
Good point Wilts the United States of Europe was something I had long forgotten about.
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Fascinating insight into Cummings today.
Apparently, as a bunch of Tory rebels were waiting in a corridor to see Johnson, Cummings turned up and screamed at them for an extended period, finishing off buly saying "Who ARE you anyway. I don't recognise any of you."
Dominic old lad, if you're reading this, they are MPs. Elected by the public. Question is, who the flying f**k are YOU?
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
Good point Wilts the United States of Europe was something I had long forgotten about.
Wasn't Churchill all in favour of a united Europe as long as it didn’t include Britain?
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Fascinating insight into Cummings today.
Apparently, as a bunch of Tory rebels were waiting in a corridor to see Johnson, Cummings turned up and screamed at them for an extended period, finishing off buly saying "Who ARE you anyway. I don't recognise any of you."
Dominic old lad, if you're reading this, they are MPs. Elected by the public. Question is, who the flying f**k are YOU?
He can't know much on politics if he doesn't know who Hammond is.
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it's all going tits up for boris at the moment his 'man' management skills appear to be lacking as foxbat has pointed out
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Elected by the public? Does that matter any more?
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if you have to ask ...................
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Turns out Johnson is a bullshitter and a coward as well as a liar.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MaryCreaghMP/status/1168944830048874507
Who'd have thought it?
yeh well even boris isn't that stupid, is he?
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I quite like how they're being referred to as the Rebel Alliance, as that would make the Government the Empire. :laugh:
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Turns out Johnson is a bullshitter and a coward as well as a liar.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MaryCreaghMP/status/1168944830048874507
Who'd have thought it?
yeh well even boris isn't that stupid, is he?
Scrap that. I misunderstood that tweet. I thought it was staying that Johnson had said he wouldn't kick the rebels out.
I'll save calling him a coward and a bullshitter till tomorrow, when he doesn't kick them out.
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Boris has lost tonight. Good stuff.
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To be fair personally I would rather no brexit and another term with tories in power this way I think this will be the result that we get
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To be fair personally I would rather no brexit and another term with tories in power this way I think this will be the result that we get
But why?
They're the reason we're in this mess. They called the ref to kill off UKIP and appease the ERG. They wrote lies on the side of a bus which appealed to people because of austerity which was their idea. They called an GE in 2017 to get a majority and failed. They just shot themselves in the leg last night by losing 21+1 MPs.
It's clearly time for a different strategy.
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Fascinating insight into Cummings today.
Apparently, as a bunch of Tory rebels were waiting in a corridor to see Johnson, Cummings turned up and screamed at them for an extended period, finishing off buly saying "Who ARE you anyway. I don't recognise any of you."
Dominic old lad, if you're reading this, they are MPs. Elected by the public. Question is, who the flying f**k are YOU?
He can't know much on politics if he doesn't know who Hammond is.
Maybe he was saying "I dont recognise you" meaning you have no standing within the Party and certainly no influence in the future
However they are duly elected MPs where he is (or appears to be) a jumped up unelected bully boy
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After last nights debacle it looks like Johnson needs a new SPAD ................ so he can keep digging :woohoo:
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To be fair personally I would rather no brexit and another term with tories in power this way I think this will be the result that we get
But why?
They're the reason we're in this mess. They called the ref to kill off UKIP and appease the ERG. They wrote lies on the side of a bus which appealed to people because of austerity which was their idea. They called an GE in 2017 to get a majority and failed. They just shot themselves in the leg last night by losing 21+1 MPs.
It's clearly time for a different strategy.
Replying to myself but imagine if we went for Chaos with Ed Milliband. :laugh:
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To be fair personally I would rather no brexit and another term with tories in power this way I think this will be the result that we get
But why?
They're the reason we're in this mess. They called the ref to kill off UKIP and appease the ERG. They wrote lies on the side of a bus which appealed to people because of austerity which was their idea. They called an GE in 2017 to get a majority and failed. They just shot themselves in the leg last night by losing 21+1 MPs.
It's clearly time for a different strategy.
Replying to myself but imagine if we went for Chaos with Ed Milliband. :laugh:
Or May's deal, or Cameron had stuck around etc. Hindsight eh!
Utterly stunned with the amount of support for Boris Johnson on the radio from the public this morning. It amazes how a confident outward persona makes a huge difference.
I have no idea where it will go next, but it does surprise me to some extent how much another extension appears to be unfavourable to the general public in some ways, brexit fatigue?
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Fascinating times.
Jacob Rees-Mogg has voted against his own Govt 100 times. Including twice on May's Brexit deal.
He's on the front bench.
Last night, several Tory MPs voted against the Govt for the first time and were booted out.
The Tory party is now a hard-line, uninclusive, far-right, nationalistic cabal. It's not remotely close to the party that it was even under Thatcher.
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BFYP.
And there's the problem with democracy.
There are millions of people who want a flash-bang showman, because the day to day drudge of politics (which is the important but) bores them shitless.
Decision time for the country coming up. Do we really want a showman.
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BFYP.
And there's the problem with democracy.
There are millions of people who want a flash-bang showman, because the day to day drudge of politics (which is the important but) bores them shitless.
Decision time for the country coming up. Do we really want a showman.
Some will yes.
I actually like how Boris comes accross when he speaks and I actually the approach he speaks about with the EU to be fairly solid (if admittedly difficult).
But if we get an election (which really has to happen now), it'll be policies not people I will go for and at the moment I don't know enough. I've never been a one party person so it will be a tough choice. If we get an election that'll be a good thread....
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BYFP, I assume you didn't watch his appearance at the despatch box yesterday, it was woeful with evasion and waffle. He had no response to Hammond or Gauke etc, etc. He can only perform on his own terms, note his avoidance of scrutiny by the press in the run uo to his election as leader. The tv only shows snatches, you need to see the whole picture.
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He was shocking yesterday. Utterly out if his depth. It's all front with him. There's nothing underpinning it, because he doesn't believe in anything. He's spent a career gaming opportunities to push his own advancement. You can't do that as PM.
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BYFP, I assume you didn't watch his appearance at the despatch box yesterday, it was woeful with evasion and waffle. He had no response to Hammond or Gauke etc, etc. He can only perform on his own terms, note his avoidance of scrutiny by the press in the run uo to his election as leader. The tv only shows snatches, you need to see the whole picture.
I saw some of it and agree he isn't always 100% on it, I have no issue with that. None of it is that relevant, it's the substance of their actions that matter. However, many do not see it that way, Ed Milliband will tell you that. Corbyn on the other side has done very well out of being a good speaker and campaigner even if you question his policies you cannot knock the way he speaks and campaigns.
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Two Labour rebels voted against the Letwin motion – Kate Hoey and John Mann – as well as ex-Labour MPs Ian Austin and Ivan Lewis.
Hoey is standing down at the GE, but somebody needs to explain to John Mann what his options are.
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I guess back to the original point, the Scottish courts today ruled the government has acted legally in proroguing parliament.
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Caroline Lucas got it spot on last night.
She said that our constitutional arrangements are hopelessly out of date for this situation. They rely upon Govts being honest and playing by the rules. And this Govt, more than any previous one ever, is prepared to rip up the unspoken rule book.
So, they can technically prorogue Parliament on the subterfuge that it is what happens before a Queen's Speech. But everyone knows that is not the reason they've done it, and done it for this unprecedented length of time.
That Kitson Cummings is doing untold damage to the fabric that underpins our system of Govt. He, unelected nobody that he is, has taken it upon himself to smash our systems and conventions.
Well so be it then. He WILL be defeated and he'll not like what is re-built in its place.
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So just to have a little break from everybody's favorite hobby of Tory bashing ;-).. Were do we go from here??? Whatever the reasons,The Tory's who didn't want a GE suddenly see this as a great opportunity to have one.And thats not because they think they can then delay it and push through Brexit but because they see a opportunity to make life a lot more comfortable..
They know Labour are in as much shambles as they are,and with all the recent polls somehow showing Boris extending the lead over Labour they would feel confident of having one and going into some kind of coalition with the Brexit party giving them a much better majority than the one they now haven't got now
Labour and Libs on the other hand have spent the last year screaming for a election and now they can have one suddenly true to Labour form they flip flop and decide they wont vote for one.That of course is under the pretext that they are sacrificing that for their beliefs (depending what day it is) so the dates are not pushed back forcing a no deal brexit through.Reality is i'm not sure they want one regardless tbh...They are not worried about losing seats to the Tory's but they are worried about losing marginals to the Brexit party in leave areas and the Libs in remain...
I've long since thought that it's all fine and Dandy lambasting the Tory's pitiful performance over the last four years and even as a tory i don't dispute that..However if you dont persuade the voters that you are the alternative then eventually you will finish up weaker than you started,and i would argue with anyone that Corbyn just doesn't and never will have enough support or trust to be sat in no10 with his own majority..
Whatever your political persuasions how this plays out and what the house will look like in 3 months is frankly anybody's guest but interesting times that for sure..
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Wing Co
There is close to zero chance of Labour getting a majority. There is a moderate chance of a Lab/SNP/LD Govt.
What's going to happen now is good, old fashioned political positioning in advance if the inevitable Election.
The reason the Tories have been pulling away in the polls was entirely predictable (and predicted by me) 3 months back. It's because Johnson has moved the Tories very sharply to the Right and is pulling votes back from Farage.
Johnson desperately wants a GE before 31 Oct, so he can promise that if he gets a majority, we will leave on that date as he promised. That will neutralise Farage.
The Opposition want to delay a GE until after 31 Oct because then Johnson will have failed in his promise and the more rabid Brexit supporters are likely to bleed back to Farage and pull the Tories down.
There is another reason why the Opposition want a delay. Looking at the current economic figures, we are almost certainly already in recession. That'll be officially confirmed in late Oct/early Nov. That's the final argument in the Stop Johnson's Brexit campaign.
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Wing Co
There is close to zero chance of Labour getting a majority. There is a moderate chance of a Lab/SNP/LD Govt.
What's going to happen now is good, old fashioned political positioning in advance if the inevitable Election.
The reason the Tories have been pulling away in the polls was entirely predictable (and predicted by me) 3 months back. It's because Johnson has moved the Tories very sharply to the Right and is pulling votes back from Farage.
Johnson desperately wants a GE before 31 Oct, so he can promise that if he gets a majority, we will leave on that date as he promised. That will neutralise Farage.
The Opposition want to delay a GE until after 31 Oct because then Johnson will have failed in his promise and the more rabid Brexit supporters are likely to bleed back to Farage and pull the Tories down.
There is another reason why the Opposition want a delay. Looking at the current economic figures, we are almost certainly already in recession. That'll be officially confirmed in late Oct/early Nov. That's the final argument in the Stop Johnson's Brexit campaign.
Disagree on your last point, Boris will play up to it further, the uncertainty is fuelling this downturn and we'd be better off out. Subjective it is but an easy narrative, with some truth to it aswell as the uncertainty for some (not all) is a big problem. There is a strong argument that pushing it back and back achieves nothing. Then they will jump on the - it's just more money going out of the country to the EU line - simplistic and not at all correct in totality but plays up well.
Plus after all this, if it is delayed (again) do we just spend the first third of the delay in election mode achieving nothing? Don't underestimate how many people are properly pissed off with another delay, people want it done one way or the other.
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He was shocking yesterday. Utterly out if his depth. It's all front with him. There's nothing underpinning it, because he doesn't believe in anything. He's spent a career gaming opportunities to push his own advancement. You can't do that as PM.
That sums him up well. Johnson, JRM et al are not idiots by any means. They are very intelligent men, but like you say there is no integrity. They don’t channel their intelligence into anything for the right reason therefore it just becomes a web of shite they are always scrambling around in.
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BFYP
SOME people want it done one way or the other. There is no evidence that a majority of people do.
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Gaz
It's Government by upper class spivs and wide boys. It's important to be clear about this. The old Tory party that claimed to be on the side of business and hard work has gone. It's been gutted.
Whatever you thought about their policies, they had a consistency to them and a philosophical guide. You knew more or less what they were trying to do, even if you thought it was wrong.
The current set have jettisoned that. There is no philosophical guide to them. It's about power and only power. They will ditch any principle, drop any policy, tell any lie they need to in order to secure power.
Hence, after a decade of saying that Austerity was vital, and after only last year voting for Austerity budgets right through to the mid-2020s, and after a decade of saying Labour's spending plans were unfeasible, whaddya know? They've suddenly found the Magic Money Tree this morning. Spending will be lavishly increased across the board.
Because there's an election coming and they want to buy votes.
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The Eton brigade and the Momentum bully boys represent everything wrong and divisive within politics atm
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Gaz
It's Government by upper class spivs and wide boys. It's important to be clear about this. The old Tory party that claimed to be on the side of business and hard work has gone. It's been gutted.
Whatever you thought about their policies, they had a consistency to them and a philosophical guide. You knew more or less what they were trying to do, even if you thought it was wrong.
The current set have jettisoned that. There is no philosophical guide to them. It's about power and only power. They will ditch any principle, drop any policy, tell any lie they need to in order to secure power.
Hence, after a decade of saying that Austerity was vital, and after only last year voting for Austerity budgets right through to the mid-2020s, and after a decade of saying Labour's spending plans were unfeasible, whaddya know? They've suddenly found the Magic Money Tree this morning. Spending will be lavishly increased across the board.
Because there's an election coming and they want to buy votes.
And you know what, if the public purse is busting full of money it must be down to the previous chancellor, who has had the whip removed 😀
They must think we’re all stupid
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I'm not one generally for moaning about bias at the BBC, but their Twitter coverage of PMQ today was beyond belief.
A string of tweets bigging up bluster from Johnson. Highlighting him attacking Corbyn. Not a single comment on Corbyn's questions to Johnson. There was even one tweet where they said "Jeremy Corbyn refuses to answer Boris Johnson's question".
It's called Prime-f**king-Minister's Questions for a reason. He's supposed to answer questions not f**king ask them.
In the current atmosphere, that performance from the BBC is an utter disgrace.
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BBC Twitter feed repeated a lame joke by Johnson about Corbyn being a chlorinated chicken.
Meanwhile, John McDonnell comes out with the cleverest joke in the Commons all week and the BBC coverage blanks it.
Javid and McDonnell's dad's were both bus drivers. McDonnell said: you know what they say about Chancellors of the Exchequer whose dads drove buses? You wait years for one then another one come along immediately afterwards.
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Billy wasn't that originally Sadiq Khans joke I believe his dad was also a bus driver.
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BBC Twitter feed repeated a lame joke by Johnson about Corbyn being a chlorinated chicken.
Meanwhile, John McDonnell comes out with the cleverest joke in the Commons all week and the BBC coverage blanks it.
Javid and McDonnell's dad's were both bus drivers. McDonnell said: you know what they say about Chancellors of the Exchequer whose dads drove buses? You wait years for one then another one come along immediately afterwards.
Hahahahaha, Had me falling over Jeremy Corbyn sat on the floor in the isle.
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BBC Twitter feed repeated a lame joke by Johnson about Corbyn being a chlorinated chicken.
Meanwhile, John McDonnell comes out with the cleverest joke in the Commons all week and the BBC coverage blanks it.
Javid and McDonnell's dad's were both bus drivers. McDonnell said: you know what they say about Chancellors of the Exchequer whose dads drove buses? You wait years for one then another one come along immediately afterwards.
Hahahahaha, Had me falling over Jeremy Corbyn sat on the floor in the isle.
You should watch where you're walking then BB.😉
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BBC Twitter feed repeated a lame joke by Johnson about Corbyn being a chlorinated chicken.
Meanwhile, John McDonnell comes out with the cleverest joke in the Commons all week and the BBC coverage blanks it.
Javid and McDonnell's dad's were both bus drivers. McDonnell said: you know what they say about Chancellors of the Exchequer whose dads drove buses? You wait years for one then another one come along immediately afterwards.
Hahahahaha, Had me falling over Jeremy Corbyn sat on the floor in the isle.
You should watch where you're walking then BB.😉
Yes, I should have done, but with all the empty seats I never thought There'd be anybody sat on the floor!
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''PMQs verdict: Johnson resorts to machismo and cheap jibes
In his first PMQs, PM may have set a new record for dodging detail and questions of policy''
''Johnson was also even more dishonest than usual. Corbyn said Michael Gove told Andrew Marr that food prices would go up in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Johnson claimed Gove said no such thing. But here is the quote. Asked if food prices would go up, Gove said:
Some prices may go up. Other prices will come down''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/pmqs-verdict-boris-johnson-resorts-to-machismo-and-cheap-jibes
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
i wish people would get facts right about Churchill & the Conservative Party
Churchill represented five constituencies during his career as a Member of Parliament (MP). Ideologically an economic liberal and imperialist, for most of his career he was a member of the Conservative Party, which he led from 1940 to 1955, but from 1904 to 1924 was a member of the Liberal Party.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
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Bizarre stuff going on in Parliament tonight
A bunch of Brexit-supporting Labour MPs put an amendment to the No Deal blocking Bill, saying that Parliament should effectively resurrect May's Deal.
No-one really supported it.
The MPs were doing it to make a point to their constituents.
They had a vote.
It should have been defeated by a mile.
It won.
It won, because the MPs who opposed it went into the No lobby....
...and the Govt had sent no Tellers to count them.
Either a quite astonishing mistake. Or, a f**king disgraceful deliberate action.
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
i wish people would get facts right about Churchill & the Conservative Party
Churchill represented five constituencies during his career as a Member of Parliament (MP). Ideologically an economic liberal and imperialist, for most of his career he was a member of the Conservative Party, which he led from 1940 to 1955, but from 1904 to 1924 was a member of the Liberal Party.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
Which fact have I got wrong please? Was Winston Churchill's grandson expelled from the Tory Party or not last night? He said he was in his speech today giving credit to:
"my right-honourable friend the Prime Minister, the Leader of the House and other members of the Cabinet whose serial disloyalty has been an inspiration for so many of us."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/churchills-grandson-close-tears-condemns-19488642
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Either a quite astonishing mistake. Or, a f**king disgraceful deliberate action.
I think I know which option my money's on.
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When johnson is booted out the new leader can offer the 'rebels' a seat back in the tent
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Hopefully the antics over the last 3 years has registered with young voters.
''More than 100,000 apply to register to vote in UK in 48 hours
Young people make up bulk of new applications, with Britain poised for snap general election''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/more-than-100000-people-apply-register-vote-youth-uk-general-election
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https://mobile.twitter.com/dngbbc/status/1169328487980830721
He can't help himself can he. Just can't help himself. He lies as easily as he breathes.
I had a work colleague like that. Put him on the spot and he'd lie and he'd keep lying. He was a f**king nightmare. And now we've got one like him running the country.
Anyo e who just shrugs at this doesn't have much faith in what our country SHOULD be.
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The f**king brassneck of some of the Tories.
He's just stood in Parliament and said there has to be a GE because Parliament has fudged and delayed Brexit.
He voted against May's Deal three times.
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Tonight - if everyone follows through on what they have said they will do - Johnson and Cummings will expel Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory Party for standing up for the project his grandfather initiated.
Good luck in the forthcoming election #VoteTory for Stalinism in the UK
i wish people would get facts right about Churchill & the Conservative Party
Churchill represented five constituencies during his career as a Member of Parliament (MP). Ideologically an economic liberal and imperialist, for most of his career he was a member of the Conservative Party, which he led from 1940 to 1955, but from 1904 to 1924 was a member of the Liberal Party.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
Which fact have I got wrong please? Was Winston Churchill's grandson expelled from the Tory Party or not last night? He said he was in his speech today giving credit to:
"my right-honourable friend the Prime Minister, the Leader of the House and other members of the Cabinet whose serial disloyalty has been an inspiration for so many of us."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/churchills-grandson-close-tears-condemns-19488642
sorry wilts I wasn't having a go at you I used the word "people" (plural) you "believed" what you were "fed". I discovered this fact a few years ago. I meant the headline "grabbers" that "fed" you the information
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The f**king brassneck of some of the Tories.
He's just stood in Parliament and said there has to be a GE because Parliament has fudged and delayed Brexit.
He voted against May's Deal three times.
hasn’t Corbyn and others done the same called for a ge then not took 1 as said just about all of them are looking out for themselves
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Not the same thing. In this case Labour have put their own ambitions on the back burner to prevent Boris forcing no deal. If they took the GE Boris could just change the date after it was called and no one could do a thing about it and we'd crash out.
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The f**king brassneck of some of the Tories.
He's just stood in Parliament and said there has to be a GE because Parliament has fudged and delayed Brexit.
He voted against May's Deal three times.
hasn’t Corbyn and others done the same called for a ge then not took 1 as said just about all of them are looking out for themselves
Literally every post you put in the off topic section essentially boils down to "they're all the same and they're all just in it for themselves". Regardless of how many times it's pointed out to you that that isn't the case. And then follows more whatabouttery. I don't understand it.
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Bpool.
Every party is trying to get an advantage.
Yes. Of course they are. What do you want them to do? Manoeuvre themselves into a position where they will lose?
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Well, you want Boris to! and if you actually were as bright as you keep telling everybody you are you'd suspect that we'd all be better off leaving with no deal under Boris than even remaining under Jezza!
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No bst I would prefer them
To stop the bull shit that it’s about brexit
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But it IS about Brexit for a lot of them.
Here's the thing.
Just because we've got an amoral, self-serving Kitson as PM,that doesn't mean that all MPs are amoral, self-serving Kitsons.
Most of them go into politics because they have a drive to take the country in their direction. Disagree with them for sure, but if you assume they're just on the make, you're doing most of them a disservice.
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The one good thing about the past two days is that the DUP's magic money tree has disappeared as they've suddenly become completely irrelevant.
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Not the same thing. In this case Labour (Turkeys)have put their own ambitions on the back burner to prevent Boris forcing no deal. If they took the GE Boris could just change the date after it was called and no one could do a thing about it and we'd crash out.
Turkeys tend not to vote for Christmas ... and the end of the Labour party as we know it.
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BST remain would have won if people like you up and down the country didn't exist. It's people like you preaching and thinking you know it all that the sort of person who gets to the ballot box and thinks. Sod them I'm voting....
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But how do you know that Padge, do you know it all? :s
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If people took or had taken more interest in politics and the future of the country there would have been no brexit in the first place, those that are disinterested or too lazy to think for themselves and taking cues from boris and his ilk that only want outcomes that suit themselves are the problem I would have thought. And we get back to the circular debate, there has been nothing stated from a single credible economist that says Britain will be better off with any form of brexit.
Please anyone tell me what they want from brexit and how the country will be better.
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Ken Clarke stops up in the debate last night and said BJ just can’t be trusted and everything he says is fabricated. It was quite strong stuff.
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Ken Clarke stops up in the debate last night and said BJ just can’t be trusted and everything he says is fabricated. It was quite strong stuff.
Whatever you say or think about Corbyn, he's played a blinder the last couple of days. Some said he would fall for the "elephant trap" but he's shown he's not naive; he will NOT agree to a general election until this anti no-deal bill has become law. The one thing Johnson said he can/will do, he can't/won't. I'm not sure Labour will win a majority, but they will have more chance of forming a coalition than the rotten Tories.
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Ken Clarke stops up in the debate last night and said BJ just can’t be trusted and everything he says is fabricated. It was quite strong stuff.
Whatever you say or think about Corbyn, he's played a blinder the last couple of days. Some said he would fall for the "elephant trap" but he's shown he's not naive; he will NOT agree to a general election until this anti no-deal bill has become law. The one thing Johnson said he can/will do, he can't/won't. I'm not sure Labour will win a majority, but they will have more chance of forming a coalition than the rotten Tories.
I do fear a Brexit Party/Tory coalition.
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Agreed BJW.
Meanwhile, the very stable genius, Cummings, was apparently shit faced in Westminster last night, staggering round the corridors shouting at people.
EDIT.
It was actually the night before. And he was haranguing Corbyn.
https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/09/dominic-cummings-go-home-youre-drunk.html?m=1
Has anybody got the phone number of the ghost of Norris McWhirter? I think we've got a candidate for the Fastest Coming Off of Wheels world record.
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It's funny how every Brexiter talking point is now coming back around. How many times have we heard about that unelected drunkard Juncker? Now we have an unelected drunkard Cummings teararsing round Parliament shouting abuse at our politicians. Remarkable.
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If people took or had taken more interest in politics and the future of the country there would have been no brexit in the first place, those that are disinterested or too lazy to think for themselves and taking cues from boris and his ilk that only want outcomes that suit themselves are the problem I would have thought. And we get back to the circular debate, there has been nothing stated from a single credible economist that says Britain will be better off with any form of brexit.
Please anyone tell me what they want from brexit and how the country will be better.
Here we go, the leavers are thick again! Could you be any more patronising?
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If you wish to take my comment as aimed at brexiter's only I can't help that bfyp, I'm thinking if more people had understood what is being taken away from them they wouldn't have joined the brexit camp in the first place. There are plenty of left wing voters that didn't get off their backsides to vote.
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If you wish to take my comment as aimed at brexiter's only I can't help that bfyp, I'm thinking if more people had understood what is being taken away from them they wouldn't have joined the brexit camp in the first place. There are plenty of left wing voters that didn't get off their backsides to vote.
Plenty of people understood, you just assume they voted that way because they didn't understand which I'm sorry is just wrong. This is the problem, that viewpoint isn't going to be changed unless people understand why it's a viewpoint. A lot of people voted that way because they didn't like mechanisms of the EU and wanted change. It's all well and good asking for a leave based on x,y,z but who on the remain side is mentioning remain based on x,y,z? Absolutely nobody as far as I can see.
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And what about the millions that didn't vote? are you telling me that those that voted for johnson are thinking up to date fair minded voters?
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If you wish to take my comment as aimed at brexiter's only I can't help that bfyp, I'm thinking if more people had understood what is being taken away from them they wouldn't have joined the brexit camp in the first place. There are plenty of left wing voters that didn't get off their backsides to vote.
Plenty of people understood, you just assume they voted that way because they didn't understand which I'm sorry is just wrong. This is the problem, that viewpoint isn't going to be changed unless people understand why it's a viewpoint. A lot of people voted that way because they didn't like mechanisms of the EU and wanted change. It's all well and good asking for a leave based on x,y,z but who on the remain side is mentioning remain based on x,y,z? Absolutely nobody as far as I can see.
The remain argument is based on everything brexit is not, a better economy short and long term, better conditions for workers, more equitable distribution of public money throughout the country, no war between members of the EU ................... tbc
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Saw the front page of todays Daily Fail online which is nothing short of a complete distortion of the facts, basically blaming Corbyn for everything.
Problem is the readers of that rag take it all in if they don't, as most people don't, dig deeper.
That kind of stuff has been drip drip dripping into the nation's consciousness from all over the media ever since the Left took control of the Labour Party and it sticks.
This morning John McDonnell explained quite clearly on BBC breakfast, why Labour were not taking the offer of an election before no deal was off the table, yet the presenter kept on haranguing him about it.
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Unfortunately TT the control of the majority of the media is in the hand of the centre and right wing, added to it that sensationalism sells copy especially in the yellow press-would you like a serve of labour/left wing bashing with you sport sir/madam?
Added: And to prove my point:
PM cornered': how the papers covered Johnson's horror day in Commons
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/pm-cornered-how-the-papers-covered-johnsons-horror-day-in-commons
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Curiouser and curiouser
''Jo Johnson, brother of UK PM, quits as Tory MP and minister saying he is "torn between family and national interest"''
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Curiouser and curiouser
''Jo Johnson, brother of UK PM, quits as Tory MP and minister saying he is "torn between family and national interest"''
Yes it appears Boris has indirectly sacked his brother 😀
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Here's JJ's tweet (from the Guardian)
It’s been an honour to represent Orpington for 9 years & to serve as a minister under three PMs. In recent weeks I’ve been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it’s an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister. #overandout
September 5, 2019
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Johnson’s premiership is in tatters.
His October election call a last desperate throw of dice.
Labour & the other opposition parties must not save him, but ensure an election is only called after October 31st, when he will have failed completely.
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It will be interesting around the family dinner table on Sunday?
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Tweet from Simon Hoare (the Guardian)
Simon Hoare Esq., MP (@Simon4NDorset)
There’s deep disquiet across the Party at the handling of this issue of the Whip. We can’t win unless our base is broad and representative of all strands of opinion. No10 needs to rethink and fast. I think we are better being like Churchill and NOT Stalin #toriesdontpurge https://t.co/3pwr1rsbr6
September 5, 2019
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What's the next plan from No 10 put all the blame on Cummings and then cut him adrift?
Tele pay wall:
Dominic Cummings personally sabotaged a compromise plan put forward by the Conservative MPs who went on to rebel against the Government, the Telegraph has learnt.
''The Prime Minister's chief adviser launched a foul-mouth tirade against former business secretary Greg Clark after he proposed the government set aside a day after the October European summit for MPs to vote on a no-deal Brexit.
The proposal would have meant MPs would have been able to see the shape of Boris Johnson's negotiation plan before voting on whether a further extension to the negotiations was necessary'' ........................................................
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This is what a big slice of the country is being fed on bfyp and unfortunately the drip feed works.
''THE SUN SAYS Corbyn was always an unpleasant dimwit and a liar – turns out he’s chicken too''
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9865044/corbyn-dimwit-liar-and-chicken-brexit/
''THE Sun is officially the most read newspaper and website in the country — according to a new governing body. A definitive survey shows 33.3million adults now read The Sun every month. The Sun is the most-read newspaper from Monday to Saturday — and The Sun on Sunday also leads the way.
The Sun is officially Britain's most read newspaper and website with ...
https://www.thesun.co.uk › the-sun-britains-most-popular-paper-33million''
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Looks like an October GE now.
Govt are rushing through the No Deal block Bill and are re-tabling the motion to call a GE. Difficult to see how Corbyn or SNP can not vote for the GE once the Bill has been implemented.
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I wouldn't know Sydney as I don't read it, it's tosh IMO (tends to be the times I read and very occasionally). The Sun and the mirror are both of the same ilk so it's no surprise that it's not high brow.
With Johnson it will be interesting to see how it plays out, it can only get better for him really. If Labour don't win a majority then how can Corbyn be seen but anything other than failure.....
I could actually see them ditching Cummings...
This is a huge risk by the government and BJ must really think he has an ace somewhere up his sleave. What a gamble.
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You don't read it, I don't read it and there may be millions that don't read it for the politics but it's always there in all those homes ans businesses telling everyone that labour and corbyn are no hopers and can't handle the economy, government and anyhing they care to name ............. the drip drip drip of the rich newspaper barons deciding what government they want to back.
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BFYP
Regarding Johnson having an ace.
I thought Cummings had Game Theoried all this but it looks like I overestimated him. He's going round like a flywheel that's broken out of its bearings.
I can't see Johnson having a clever alternative plan if Cummings has gone bat shit. It all comes down to who performs best in the GE campaign. Johnson didn't look ready for that at PMQ yesterday because Corbyn flayed him. Not that you'd know that from most of the papers' coverage.
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Looks like an October GE now.
Govt are rushing through the No Deal block Bill and are re-tabling the motion to call a GE. Difficult to see how Corbyn or SNP can not vote for the GE once the Bill has been implemented.
Do we need to rely on Labour, LDs and the SNP getting enough seats to oust the government? I’m sure the LDs have said in the past that they wouldn’t entertain working with JC, but needs must maybe.
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Ken Clarke stops up in the debate last night and said BJ just can’t be trusted and everything he says is fabricated. It was quite strong stuff.
Whatever you say or think about Corbyn, he's played a blinder the last couple of days. Some said he would fall for the "elephant trap" but he's shown he's not naive; he will NOT agree to a general election until this anti no-deal bill has become law. The one thing Johnson said he can/will do, he can't/won't. I'm not sure Labour will win a majority, but they will have more chance of forming a coalition than the rotten Tories.
I do fear a Brexit Party/Tory coalition.
Good
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Farage is on record (1) as saying that he'll only collaborate with the Tories if they stand on a policy of going only for No Deal.
If the Tories do that, they'll haemorrhage votes to the LDs.
(1)...yeah...I know...
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Ken Clarke stops up in the debate last night and said BJ just can’t be trusted and everything he says is fabricated. It was quite strong stuff.
Whatever you say or think about Corbyn, he's played a blinder the last couple of days. Some said he would fall for the "elephant trap" but he's shown he's not naive; he will NOT agree to a general election until this anti no-deal bill has become law. The one thing Johnson said he can/will do, he can't/won't. I'm not sure Labour will win a majority, but they will have more chance of forming a coalition than the rotten Tories.
I do fear a Brexit Party/Tory coalition.
Good
Do you want this country to be ruined by some extreme right wingers?
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It would be hard to pick the biggest liar, johnson or farage but some appear to be happy to support either or both.
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Well if you're wondering why Farage has been relatively quiet this past few weeks, here's what he's been doing.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/08/01/bannon-and-farage-again-opaque-us-lobbying-group-intervenes-in-brexit/
Setting up a vehicle for far right money men in the USA to funnel money into the Brexit Party.
Taking back control eh?
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If you don't take back control you can't sell it!
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You have to allow someone that's scraping by on a mere EMP's wages that has been 'broke' until quite recently to try and earn a quid?
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I see our free press are as witty and independent as ever.
A reporter turned up at Corbyn's house today to give him a big girls blouse.
f**king hilarious, eh?
Edit.
It was The Sun of course. Another foreign billionaire sticking his oar in.
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General election will kind of give your second referendum results.
Cons - if you want to leave
Libs - stay in EU
Labour - confusion/ change your mind/ whatever the mood is/ best tactical way to get votes/ leave only in name
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I see our free press are as witty and independent as ever.
A reporter turned up at Corbyn's house today to give him a big girls blouse.
f**king hilarious, eh?
Edit.
It was The Sun of course. Another foreign billionaire sticking his oar in.
I assume they couldn't get hold of a chlorinated chicken until we leave the EU......?
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I see our free press are as witty and independent as ever.
A reporter turned up at Corbyn's house today to give him a big girls blouse.
f**king hilarious, eh?
Edit.
It was The Sun of course. Another foreign billionaire sticking his oar in.
Corbyn's already got a "big girls blouse" allegedly "Left behind" by a "present MP"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/22/revealed-jeremy-corbyn-showed-off-naked-diane-abbott-to-impress/
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General election will kind of give your second referendum results.
Cons - if you want to leave
Libs - stay in EU
Labour - confusion/ change your mind/ whatever the mood is/ best tactical way to get votes/ leave only in name
You missed out the Brexit Party Padge. If there is a pact between the Tories and the Brexit Party, I think the Tories will give the BP a free run in Leave voting areas in the North.
This is better for Leavers, because ex-miners like myself could never vote Tory because of what they did to the mining industry, and we'll never vote Labour again because of the way they've cheated us over Brexit.
So it looks like, just like XTC, we're only making plans for Nigel.
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Not that I have any support for that party but you can vote Lib Dem too..
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and what 'cheating' would that be ? on an advisory referendum ?
For our Future's SakeVerified account @FFSake_ 3h3 hours ago
"We know the majority of Labour voters support a #PeoplesVote, & I think Labour just need to make sure that we don't fall into these traps set by Boris Johnson, & we don't end up with No Deal."
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General election will kind of give your second referendum results.
Cons - if you want to leave
Libs - stay in EU
Labour - confusion/ change your mind/ whatever the mood is/ best tactical way to get votes/ leave only in name
You missed out the Brexit Party Padge. If there is a pact between the Tories and the Brexit Party, I think the Tories will give the BP a free run in Leave voting areas in the North.
This is better for Leavers, because ex-miners like myself could never vote Tory because of what they did to the mining industry, and we'll never vote Labour again because of the way they've cheated us over Brexit.
So it looks like, just like XTC, we're only making plans for Nigel.
Labour would announce if they got in power they'd burn everyone's house down and still win in Donny
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I see our free press are as witty and independent as ever.
A reporter turned up at Corbyn's house today to give him a big girls blouse.
f**king hilarious, eh?
Edit.
It was The Sun of course. Another foreign billionaire sticking his oar in.
It gets even worse.
While the Sun was putting JC as a chlorinated chicken;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDrawQ1WkAA3MyL.png
As Johnson is the cheerleader for a trade deal with Trump that will mean accepting US terms, the irony is lost.
The Scottish Sun had a different message tailored to the audience:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDszQC7WwAAsFff.jpg
All getting very North Korea now.
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Saw this today, quite amazing https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1169513108370591745?s=19
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Saw this today, quite amazing https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1169513108370591745?s=19
You should have seen the difference the day after Davidson resigned as well.
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Saw this today, quite amazing https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1169513108370591745?s=19
One of the responses to that tweet.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GarryEdin/status/1169520101160304640
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Fascinating, abhorrent, hilarious and frightening all at the same time.
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I’m old fashioned, I love newspapers. I like that feeling of putting on my specs, sitting back in my comfy chair, and opening my ‘paper.
But for many years, I’ve restricted myself to the Yorkshire Post and The Craven Herald and Pioneer (yeah, alright, it’s my local rag!).
That’s because I can’t trust the vast majority of the daily national press and I would get so angry reading their biased, patronising, manipulative and downright dangerous drivel.
The images of those two versions of The Sun just sum it up.
I despair for this country sometimes, I really do.
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Unusually, the Guardian has an opinion column about what happens next which is realistic;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/05/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnson-cunning-plan-winning-by-resigning
Johnson to resign next Monday, or call a VONC in his own government, to avoid facing up to his responsibilities.
The timetable is everything now!
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I said somewere before - a game of Chess with US as the collateral damage. I often see people describe it as a s**t storm
It used to be but is now far more serious than that - and unlike the car crash analogy where you see it coming and cant look away - with this mess you CANT look away.
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Major has nailed it here for me.
Major tells Johnson to 'get rid of these advisers'
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-john-major-launches-attack-on-political-anarchist-dominic-cummings-11803053
That's assuming you don't want to Tory party to rip itself to shreds.
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It's actually great int it?
I thought Cummings had this all sorted. A plan to put the opposition onto the back foot.
Instead he's smashing up the Tory party from the inside like Captain Caveman on steroids, and drinking himself into a coma every night.
He IS actually as deranged as I previously thought him to be.
f**king wonderful viewing.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxIvbCVAAICZy0?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/thequentinletts/status/1169850394375098368?s=20
Presented without comment.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxIvbCVAAICZy0?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/thequentinletts/status/1169850394375098368?s=20
Presented without comment.
From that tweet, I’m not sure poor old Quentin is of sane mind
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Cain was a bad man but he was able to stop his brother publicly humiliating him. As we've learned here this week, that's never easy.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxIvbCVAAICZy0?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/thequentinletts/status/1169850394375098368?s=20
Presented without comment.
From that tweet, I’m not sure poor old Quentin is of sane mind
I wonder if Boris knows that he's being compared favorably to Robert Mugabe.
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https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1169907702811648000?s=19 (https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1169907702811648000?s=19)
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The bar keeps on dropping for Boris and his team.
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LabourAgainstBrexit #FBPE @Labour4EU 7m7 minutes ago
Conservative MPs must demand to know if this is true, and if so call no confidence in him immediately. Anything else is complicity in wrecking Parliamentary democracy.
Boris Johnson tells journalists in Aberdeenshire he will not seek a Brexit extension even if it's passed in law. "I will not. I don't want a delay."
@heraldscotland
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LabourLordsUKVerified account @LabourLordsUK · 2h2 hours ago
More
BREAKING:
- No amendts to 3rd Reading of #BennBill, which completes its parliamentary scrutiny
- @JeffRookerj (sponsor) moves 'This Bill Do Now Pass' motion - "CONTENT"
- It will NOT return to MPs on Monday & Govt guarantees #RoyalAssent next week before #Prorogation
Job done!
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12176234/Nine-deceptions-in-our-history-with-the-EU.html
https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:cez792qaf/read/single#page/1/mode/1up
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and what 'cheating' would that be ? on an advisory referendum ?
For our Future's SakeVerified account @FFSake_ 3h3 hours ago
"We know the majority of Labour voters support a #PeoplesVote, & I think Labour just need to make sure that we don't fall into these traps set by Boris Johnson, & we don't end up with No Deal."
It’s only an advisory referendum because remain lost. Didn’t our remain supporting Government advise the country they’d deliver the result of the referendum??
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Which Govt was that HA?
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Nigel Farage stated on TV that if we voted to remain he would be straight back to pushing another leave campaign.
In three years there has been no credible policy as regarding sorting out a leave strategy. The day after the result spoke volumes about the main figures on the leve side. The present leave approach seems to be chop the head off to cure the headache.
I also did vote leave in the referendum but what a shambles. There seems no one capable of negotiating anything.
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Nigel Farage stated on TV that if we voted to remain he would be straight back to pushing another leave campaign.
In three years there has been no credible policy as regarding sorting out a leave strategy. The day after the result spoke volumes about the main figures on the leve side. The present leave approach seems to be chop the head off to cure the headache.
I also did vote leave in the referendum but what a shambles. There seems no one capable of negotiating anything.
Great. The longer he keeps splitting the Tory vote the better.
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and what 'cheating' would that be ? on an advisory referendum ?
For our Future's SakeVerified account @FFSake_ 3h3 hours ago
"We know the majority of Labour voters support a #PeoplesVote, & I think Labour just need to make sure that we don't fall into these traps set by Boris Johnson, & we don't end up with No Deal."
It’s only an advisory referendum because remain lost. Didn’t our remain supporting Government advise the country they’d deliver the result of the referendum??
No, it was an advisory referendum because the question that was asked was:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
Note not 'must', not 'under any circumstances', not by a date certain...
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It was an advisory referendum because we have a representative democracy, with Parliament sovereign, not a plebiscitary democracy. You can complain as much as you want but that is a fact.
It's also a fact that no Govt in this country has the ability to require a later Govt to do or not do anything. Cameron should never have said that the Govt would implement the result of the Ref because he couldn't guarantee that under our Constitution. That's just one of the many things he shouldn't have done. If he'd never gone into f**king politics, we'd not be in this mess now.
But anyway, just try a little thought experiment about representative and plebiscitary democratic positions.
Let's assume Country A has a referendum and the result is that the people decide they want to do something.
Now, in looking at how to implement that thing, the Govt of Country A finds a massive problem would result, and would lead to great economic and social problems in part of country A. No one talked about that at the time of the Referendum. (Well, actually, a few did, but they were shouted down and called Project Fear mongers.) So the Referendum took place in blithe ignorance of this big problem.
What should the Govt do? Should they mimic a dalek voice and say "The People have spoken. There. Must. Be. No. Deviation."?
Or would you expect the Govt to treat the Referendum as flawed, because the decision was made in the absence of a key bit of understanding.
What do you think?
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
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That’s b*llocks BB and you know it..
How can the voters be responsible for that, regardless of their opinion.?
It is the MPs and governments collectively who have not delivered the referendum result - who have not ratified a deal with the EU or generated a better one than May did and agreed that with the EU..
The only people who can actually do anything about Brexit, whether we agree with the process or outcomes or not, are those MPs and NOT the members of the public..
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.
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IDM, if it wasn't for the support of bad loser Remoaners parliament would have found it much harder to pursue their undemocratic process of stopping Brexit. They wouldn't have been able to say they were representing anyone for a start.
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.
You been drinking?
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BB, as explained in post 513 above, in our democracy parliament is sovereign. So the unpalatable fact (for you) is that your faux bluster about democracy is once again shown to be just bollox.
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
The wheels on the bus go round and round ....................................
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IDM, if it wasn't for the support of bad loser Remoaners parliament would have found it much harder to pursue their undemocratic process of stopping Brexit. They wouldn't have been able to say they were representing anyone for a start.
BB the electorate voted to leave - just - but to leave nonetheless. misguided and lacking in clarity but leave nonetheless.
This mandated our parliament to manage brexit. Yes they have managed it badly, but surely they have the right to make sure brexit works for the best interests of the country.?
It is wholly illogical to leave the EU with no deal as there are so many links to re arrange..
This isn’t now about leave or remain, it’s about leaving sensibly..
Had the politicians managed his better we could have left with an agreed deal in March.
I would prefer we remain in the EU for personal reasons, but if we are leaving, let’s do it properly.?
You can understand that can’t you, without resorting to a points scoring forum response.?
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If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.
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If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.
Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.
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IDM
The first substantive decision after the Referendum was May, in January 2017, unilaterally deciding how to interpret Brexit.
Remember that Leave won by 3.8%. Now imagine a scale of 0-10 for the different types of Brexit that we might have gone for, where No Deal is 10 and Remain is 0.
You might think that a PM wanting to most fairly represent the outcome of such a close result would have gone for something at, may 2-3. Something like a Norway deal.
Nope. She decided that Brexit meant leaving the CU, the SM, the ECJ and using the rights of EU citizens in the UK as bargaining tools. That was at about 7-8.
She did this to cement her position in the Tory party.
She didn't include ANYONE outside the Tory party in her decision.
From that moment on, anyone who suggests that anyone outside May and the Tory party bears responsibility for the lack of national unity on Brexit that we now have, doesn't have the right to be taken seriously. Because they are wilfully ignoring this context.
What they are effectively saying is that we should basically shrug our shoulders and say "Yep. Whatever you say Brexit is, we will support it."
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If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.
Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.
Why don’t you actually engage in properly thought out debate, rather than the kind of response above.? There’s no wonder folks don’t take you seriously..
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If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.
Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.
Why don’t you actually engage in properly thought out debate, rather than the kind of response above.? There’s no wonder folks don’t take you seriously..
They don't take me serious because i'm not serious.
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.
You been drinking?
No but it seems you have for the last 3 years.
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I've got an excuse if I'm wrong then. What's yours?
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Oh aye. I forgot to add..
The EU offered us a deal at about 5-6. Johnson and the ERG rejected that as not hard enough.
Then Johnson voted for it.
Then he rejected it and says he wants something at 9 or 10.
And Farage...
He campaigned saying wouldn't it be great if we were like Norway. 2-3. Now he says anything less than 10 is a betrayal.
And some folk say it's the Remainers' fault...
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It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.
You like a youtube clip, so just for you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laCv8nGq1Co
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So with proroguing about to go nowhere, yer man is talking about wilfully breaking the law.
Anyone know the sentence for doing this i.e. gross misconduct in public office. (World King sometimes forgets that he is a public servant). Up to life imprisonment.
Way to go Boris!
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Treason?
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I think if Boris broke the law he would be sentenced to smirking through 10 Newsnight interviews followed by everyone in the country ruffling his hair and calling him "a cheeky little chappie".
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He cant break the law and wont. He said in a speech just this week he will not do that. If he does he is toast. The rhetoric is part of his campaign.
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He cant break the law and wont. He said in a speech just this week he will not do that. If he does he is toast. The rhetoric is part of his campaign.
I agree bfyp, he's a chinless wonder and spineless so he's not going to martyr himself for zero nett personal gain.
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Strictly speaking, he HAS already broken the law, when he conspired to have that journalist assaulted.
But hey. This is 2019 and we no longer seem to give a shite about stuff like that.
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Questions being asked how Cummings being found in contempt of parliament is given a security pass to westminster. Another question is why that same person came be paid from the the public purse when in contempt?
''Doughty said last night: “Serious questions must be answered as to how an individual found in contempt of parliament, and over whom other allegations hang unanswered and unresolved, can be wandering around the parliamentary estate at will''
“Of equal importance the public have the right to know whether such an individual, at the heart of government, with access to the PM and potentially highly confidential papers and communications – has received the appropriate level of security clearance.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/08/call-to-cancel-dominic-cummings-commons-security-pass
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https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1169679219259006976?s=19 (https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1169679219259006976?s=19)
Nice to see Farage has give an accurate representation of the Waterdale. :blink:
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Interesting that the french again suggesting they do not want to agree to a delay. Also some talk of offering a different position on northern Ireland which the EU may accept. Essentially boris no longer needs the DUP hence it's less important to him....
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He doesn't need the DUP NOW, because he's impotent anyway.
He's likely to need them after the GE.
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He doesn't need the DUP NOW, because he's impotent anyway.
He's likely to need them after the GE.
After a GE they may not have many seats left to give....
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https://twitter.com/TiceRichard/status/1170610215722586119?s=19 (https://twitter.com/TiceRichard/status/1170610215722586119?s=19)
That's lovely of the Brexit Party.
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Well aye. Multi-millionaires WOULD want to get rid of that tax, wouldn't they?
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
Did the heirs work for it, or is it new income to them?
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
Did the heirs work for it, or is it new income to them?
No, but their family did in most cases (I will agree to your likely point that some avoid/evade tax). Should they be taxed twice?
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BFYP
Because Western societies need Wealth Taxes to ensure that privilege doesn't get ingrained as an inheritable right.
That's not wild left wing stuff. It's very mainstream economics. If capitalist economies cement inherited privilege, they soon become ossified and lose the dynamism that they need to keep on developing.
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A lot of inheritance tax is on unearned income, often the increased value of property. I think it's right to pay inheritance tax, but the Tories keep on increasing the threshold, thereby protecting the wealthy.
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
Did the heirs work for it, or is it new income to them?
No, but their family did in most cases (I will agree to your likely point that some avoid/evade tax). Should they be taxed twice?
If they can tax the poorest in the country for having a spare bedroom in their council house because an ill parent has died or a child has moved away, then yes, they bloody well can
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Exactly that
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
Did the heirs work for it, or is it new income to them?
No, but their family did in most cases (I will agree to your likely point that some avoid/evade tax). Should they be taxed twice?
If it's new income to the heirs, then yes it should be taxed, just as if the money was being spent on staff it'd get taxed again as income.
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Inheritance tax is definitely one of the worst. I’m sure there are plenty of ways to avoid it though.
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I worked hard for over 50 years to buy my own property and have savings.
I would be most annoyed to have kids and grandkids paying tax while Google,Costa Coffee,Amazon and Starbucks drive a coach and horse through their tax obligations.
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There is double tax on most things though.. we pay income tax, then we pay VAT on most things we buy. Then there’s duty on petrol, alcohol etc.. Stamp Duty when buying property etc etc etc..
Fairly or not, most times money changes hands the exchequer gets a slice..
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I worked hard for over 50 years to buy my own property and have savings.
I would be most annoyed to have kids and grandkids paying tax while Google,Costa Coffee,Amazon and Starbucks drive a coach and horse through their tax obligations.
Yep, I understand that.
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There is double tax on most things though.. we pay income tax, then we pay VAT on most things we buy. Then there’s duty on petrol, alcohol etc.. Stamp Duty when buying property etc etc etc..
Fairly or not, most times money changes hands the exchequer gets a slice..
I understand that IDM and pay vat and other taxes including on my pension. I would just like to give my kids and grandkids something to help them when I go. I'm obviously not in the same league as David Cameron's dad though.
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Or maybe all inheritance is abolished so everyone starts from zero?
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Why don't we just hand over all our money once a week and share it out equally?
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Financial TimesVerified account @FinancialTimes Sep 2
A Corbyn government promises a genuine revolution in the British economy. Labour’s leader-ship intends to pursue not only a fundamental change in ownership and tax but a systemic effort to embed reform in a way that future parties will struggle to unpick.
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British brain drain to strike again!
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Why don't we just hand over all our money once a week and share it out equally?
I wasn't advocating this, but it is an alternative point of view.
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There is double tax on most things though.. we pay income tax, then we pay VAT on most things we buy. Then there’s duty on petrol, alcohol etc.. Stamp Duty when buying property etc etc etc..
Fairly or not, most times money changes hands the exchequer gets a slice..
I understand that IDM and pay vat and other taxes including on my pension. I would just like to give my kids and grandkids something to help them when I go. I'm obviously not in the same league as David Cameron's dad though.
And you CAN give your kids and grandkids something.
Unless your estate is in the most valuable 4% and is worth over £325k, you don't pay Inheritance Tax. Even if your estate was worth £1million, you will still leave £730k to your family; more with a bit of planning. Isn't that enough?
This is THE classic example of a tax on the wealthy, which is blown up into some form of bogeyman by the Right, to scare people who will never have to pay it.
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I'm not that rich BST. The way house prices have risen though a lot of people that aren't really rich are worth more than the threshold.
Stamp duty was for expensive houses but the line wasn't moved to reflect increases in average house prices.
I feel that hard work should be rewarded. I didn't work seven days a week and sometimes have two jobs to give it away unless I chose. I payed tax when I earned it.
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I have a problem with inheritance tax, I'm no millionaire, why do people actually like it bar it taking money from those who earnt it?
Did the heirs work for it, or is it new income to them?
No, but their family did in most cases (I will agree to your likely point that some avoid/evade tax). Should they be taxed twice?
If they can tax the poorest in the country for having a spare bedroom in their council house because an ill parent has died or a child has moved away, then yes, they bloody well can
Is it not our choice what we do with our capital? I work hard so that my children get a good start and when I die I would prefer they get the money that I have earnt and already paid a huge amount back in taxes etc.
I agree with idler's point, houses which are not particularly that special are pretty close to threshold particularly in other parts of the country, it's disproportionate for modern society and the way the housing market is right now.
Gazlaz is of course correct, clever people find ways around it, they always will but there would be many better ways to claw some of these monies from people as they age.
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Idler.
Agreed. Hard work should be rewarded.
I don't agree that getting lucky on the house price lottery should though. And that's me speaking as someone who DID get lucky on the house price lottery. I'd have no problem paying IHT if I'm over the threshold when the time comes.
But all that is secondary. The REALLY important thing about IHT is that it's needed to help level the playing field for the next generation. And if you don't make the playing field more level, you screw the concept of social mobility that is crucial to the success of a capitalist economy.
Once again, the Left has a far better understanding of how Capitalism works than the Right. The Right just want to entrench privilege down the generations.
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BFYP
I'd much prefer for us to have a Wealth Tax that applied throughout people's lives. Again, it is economic mainstream. But it'd be politically very difficult to implement, once again because the media on the Right (Mail, Sun, Express all owned by billionaires) would fight tooth and nail to portray it as something that was designed to take money from ordinary people, when actually the reverse is true.
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BFYP
I'd much prefer for us to have a Wealth Tax that applied throughout people's lives. Again, it is economic mainstream. But it'd be politically very difficult to implement, once again because the media on the Right (Mail, Sun, Express all owned by billionaires) would fight tooth and nail to portray it as something that was designed to take money from ordinary people, when actually the reverse is true.
I wouldn't disagree in some circumstances, I wrote a long essay on this whilst a student and it's all about balance isn't it? At the moment there are points on the tax scale where the balance is just not right, particularly the points where it goes significantly upwards. What incentive is there in certain careers to do the hard job when the actual post tax reward has very little incremental impact, why bother? Thus in turn supply of staff is lower and costs higher for businesses (or quality reduced).
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Agreed BFYP.
The jump from 20-40% tax rate is way too big, and at too low a salary.
I fully support higher tax rates for higher earners but that step is far too severe.
In the age of computers, there's no reason at all why tax rates couldn't be continually graded. Where you pay a tiny bit higher tax rate on every successive thousand quid you earn.
But we seem to have an obsession with simplicity. And of course, what the Right wants is a single flat rate, which would lead to a massive redistribution of wealth from the poorer to the richer.
Everyone of you who supports Farage, be aware that THAT is the sort of society he wants us to be.
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Where I worked when a pay rise was awarded everyone on the 'shop floor' got the same percentage increase. That meant that higher-paid workers got more of an increase that lower-paid ones, resulting in the gap in wages between high and low workers becoming wider. However, when you consider the alternative if an equal sum was awarded to everyone the lower paid would receive a higher percentage pay rise and the gap would decrease. Continuing to do this would eventually result in nobody wanting the higher paid jobs because there would be no financial incentive to do so.
Perhaps a percentage across the board rate for income tax would be fairer than any other system.
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Agreed BFYP.
The jump from 20-40% tax rate is way too big, and at too low a salary.
I fully support higher tax rates for higher earners but that step is far too severe.
In the age of computers, there's no reason at all why tax rates couldn't be continually graded. Where you pay a tiny bit higher tax rate on every successive thousand quid you earn.
But we seem to have an obsession with simplicity. And of course, what the Right wants is a single flat rate, which would lead to a massive redistribution of wealth from the poorer to the richer.
Everyone of you who supports Farage, be aware that THAT is the sort of society he wants us to be.
I agree and disagree.
I agree in that Farage's policies on this and anything like this are largely pathetic - hence why they wouldn't get my vote. All well and good saying they could tie up a pact with the tories, but the impact on other policies is too much for me.
I agree in that the jumps are too high. Not sure a sliding scale is quite right, but certainly more of a staggered rise would be adequate. It's not just these tax impacts either, child benefit is another, above 50k and you start to lose that so it's another secret tax, perhaps fine if you earn 200k but at lower levels it really isn't. That's another poorly thought out means testing aswell. One person in a family earning £60k= no child benefit. Two persons earning £49k each = £98k =full child benefit - bizarre.
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Some interesting points in the discussion above. I am reminded of the report in the papers a few weeks back of the property owning billionaire who paid £35 tax in two years. And the quote by Grace Blakeley about the real divide in the country not being leave v remain but 'those who live off work v those who live off wealth'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48481320
https://twitter.com/graceblakeley
'It’s fundamentally wrong that people who get their income from betting on stocks & shares or playing the property market pay less tax than those who go out to work'
https://twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1170977089656430593
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BB
Fair tax systems don't work like that though. Pretty much every tax system in the world has higher income tax rates fro the higher paid.
You start from the basic fact that Govt needs a certain level of tax income to provide the services that we all want. NHS, schools, pensions, roads, railways, armed forces etc, etc. Then you try to come up with a fair way of funding that.
A system that increases income tax the higher your salary is fair for several reasons.
1) Everyone has to pay for the bare necessities of life. Food. Shelter. Clothes. So the first level of income that we get should be taxed at zero rate, because otherwise we'd be taking money away from the poorest that they need to simply survive.
2) The same argument applies as you go up the scale from bare subsistence, to things you require for a basic quality of life. We all need some basic insurance, transport costs, basic leisure activities, communications, educational development. So after the zero rate income, you charge the next chunk of income at a relatively low rate.
3) Beyond that, more of a person's income goes on luxuries, non-essentials or savings. Those are the things that make your material life more enjoyable, and, given that you have to make the tax books balance, it is only fair that the tax rate on this higher income is higher, rather than taking more tax from income that is used for basic existence.
4) Here's the REALLY big argument. The poorer you are, the more of your income as a percentage is taken through flatter-rate taxes. VAT, alcohol, tobacco, fuel duties, road tax etc. So, if you had a flat rate of income tax (which is what Farage has spent his life demanding) you end up with the very richest paying LESS of their income as a percentage in tax than the very poorest.
That's why no country I know of has a flat rate of income tax. But hey, Farage is on the side of the little man, so I'm sure he knows what he is doing.
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BST, I suggested a percentage-based rate for everyone. That way the biggest earners pay more albeit percentage-wise the same as everyone else.
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BB.
Yes. I know. But that doesn't answer any of my points.
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BB.
Yes. I know. But that doesn't answer any of my points.
And it stunts economic growth.
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And with Parliament conveniently sidelined, so there's no way of controlling the Govt, look what the bas**rds are cooking up now.
https://mobile.twitter.com/alexGspence/status/1171419531169947648
Remember, this is Cummings who is still under criminal investigation for his actions during the 2016 Referendum. Cummings who used Cambridge Analytica to identify people who were susceptible to being bombarded with lies about the EU. Cummings who is now taking it to a whole new level. He doesn't even have to break the law on financing the operation now. He can just drag data in from every time that anyone of us uses the gov.uk website to claim benefits or pension or pay income tax or car tax or apply for a passport.
He's wanting that data about you and me and every other f**ker in the country. Presumably so he can target his lies in the General Election.
This is how is happens folks. If you just "meh" at every step, you don't deserve to live in a functioning democracy.
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Overtaxing the successful rich and causing a brain drain will stunt economic growth more.
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Afghanistan's top rate of income tax is 20%. Yemen's is 15%. Guatemala's is 7%.
Sweden's top rate is 57%. Japan's is 56%. Denmark's is 56%.
Remind me which are the successful and unsuccessful economies there?
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Slight tangent here but something happened to me recently that shows that there’s a lot of ignorance around taxes in this country...
I head up the finance function for a software company and our sales team are on commission plans. One of the account managers who has been selling well recently asked for a meeting “to have a quick chat about tax”. I thought it would be to ask about how his tax was calculated given his monthly gross earnings can vary quite significantly, but what he actually wanted to discuss were his fears to sell any more as he thought that his income reaching the higher rate threshold would mean ALL his taxable income being taxed at the higher rate and so increasing his gross pay would actually reduce his net pay.
He’s a 33 year old with 2 kids!
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Slight tangent here but something happened to me recently that shows that there’s a lot of ignorance around taxes in this country...
I head up the finance function for a software company and our sales team are on commission plans. One of the account managers who has been selling well recently asked for a meeting “to have a quick chat about tax”. I thought it would be to ask about how his tax was calculated given his monthly gross earnings can vary quite significantly, but what he actually wanted to discuss were his fears to sell any more as he thought that his income reaching the higher rate threshold would mean ALL his taxable income being taxed at the higher rate and so increasing his gross pay would actually reduce his net pay.
He’s a 33 year old with 2 kids!
I would agree with this, I have had similar questions a number of times on all sorts of taxes. Is it too hard or are people unsure? It can be fairly complex when you start to bring in some of the BIK elements etc.
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Slight tangent here but something happened to me recently that shows that there’s a lot of ignorance around taxes in this country...
I head up the finance function for a software company and our sales team are on commission plans. One of the account managers who has been selling well recently asked for a meeting “to have a quick chat about tax”. I thought it would be to ask about how his tax was calculated given his monthly gross earnings can vary quite significantly, but what he actually wanted to discuss were his fears to sell any more as he thought that his income reaching the higher rate threshold would mean ALL his taxable income being taxed at the higher rate and so increasing his gross pay would actually reduce his net pay.
He’s a 33 year old with 2 kids!
It’s amazing how many people I’ve spoken to over the years that think that. “You’re no better off for earning more!” Is the classic line. The old “super tax”.
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Slight tangent here but something happened to me recently that shows that there’s a lot of ignorance around taxes in this country...
I head up the finance function for a software company and our sales team are on commission plans. One of the account managers who has been selling well recently asked for a meeting “to have a quick chat about tax”. I thought it would be to ask about how his tax was calculated given his monthly gross earnings can vary quite significantly, but what he actually wanted to discuss were his fears to sell any more as he thought that his income reaching the higher rate threshold would mean ALL his taxable income being taxed at the higher rate and so increasing his gross pay would actually reduce his net pay.
He’s a 33 year old with 2 kids!
I would agree with this, I have had similar questions a number of times on all sorts of taxes. Is it too hard or are people unsure? It can be fairly complex when you start to bring in some of the BIK elements etc.
Tax needn’t be taxing! I think if people actually took the time to learn the basics, it would be a bit clearer to them.
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Slight tangent here but something happened to me recently that shows that there’s a lot of ignorance around taxes in this country...
I head up the finance function for a software company and our sales team are on commission plans. One of the account managers who has been selling well recently asked for a meeting “to have a quick chat about tax”. I thought it would be to ask about how his tax was calculated given his monthly gross earnings can vary quite significantly, but what he actually wanted to discuss were his fears to sell any more as he thought that his income reaching the higher rate threshold would mean ALL his taxable income being taxed at the higher rate and so increasing his gross pay would actually reduce his net pay.
He’s a 33 year old with 2 kids!
I would agree with this, I have had similar questions a number of times on all sorts of taxes. Is it too hard or are people unsure? It can be fairly complex when you start to bring in some of the BIK elements etc.
Tax needn’t be taxing! I think if people actually took the time to learn the basics, it would be a bit clearer to them.
Perhaps, but when you start getting in to company car rates, benefits in kind etc with people who shouldn't be expected to understand those things I can understand the difficulty.
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I was talking to a guy at the gym on Monday. He used to work in the benefits system. He said that there were loads of instances where benefits were denied to people becoming unemployed because their employers has deducted NI contributions but not passed them on.
He said the government could only ask but not demand that the companies pay the arrears. Surely this can't be right?
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No that's not right Idler.
Any Company accountant who did that would be jailed if they were found out.
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I thought that it was a bit far fetched but I have heard before where people's NI contributions haven't matched what they have payed.
Whether companies pay them in monthly or quarterly rather than the old fashioned weekly I don't know.
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It varies, commonly monthly but it's not as simple as a payment either, often can be netting off agreements etc. They wouldnt stop the benefit if last pay slip proving deductions were provided either, or shouldn't.
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BREAKING NEWS;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-live-brexit-today-latest-news-no-deal-tory-lead-eu-a9100206.html
The Law stands above you, Mr Johnson.
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Whoa!
Up to the Supreme Court on Tuesday then.
But this is momentous. This is the very highest court in Scotland, unanimously ruling that the PM of Great Britain and Northern Ireland knowingly and wilfully lied to the Queen over a matter of constitutional procedure.
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Just a thought.
If Johnson is found to be a treasonous lying shitebag by the Supreme Court, I guess he could appeal to the European Court of Justice...
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Treason?
Off with his head I say!
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Queen could sack the lying toerag, for giving incorrect advice maliciously.
Failing that, there is still the Tower.
That and the red hot poker.
Did a job back in the day!
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I was about to say this is unbelievable, but if any PM was ever going to lie to the Queen, chances are it would be serial liar Johnson.
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It'll be fascinating to see what happens to the Tory poll ratings if the Supreme Court confirms this.
There's the biggest question of our time. Far, far bigger than Brexit. Does anyone on the Right actually care about being routinely lied to by the PM?
-
The comments on the end of BBC articles are usually full of very angry people/trolls but I thought this was a good one
Great day for Leavers. The 17.4m who voted for our democratically elected Sovereign Parliament to take back control of lawmaking, and for independent UK courts to take back control of interpreting law.
-
I do hope LNER/DNA Card are ready for the surge in train tickets to London to see Boris's head on a spike outside the Tower.
-
Here's a thought.
Can you imagine any PM in history being found by the courts to have lied to the Queen, and not immediately resigning?
It's never even crossed my mind that this excuse for a man would resign. Because lying is what defines him and always has done.
-
Surely Dom Cummings wont let him take the fall on his own, will he? He will want his share of the collateral damage too.
-
I see the line from Cummings now is that the Scottish Courts are untrustworthy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1171726506772631553
He's a f**king maniac. There is nothing he won't try to smash in order to have his way.
-
Way to confuse people, one court says it's legal another says it is not.....
-
Way to confuse people, one court says it's legal another says it is not.....
BFYP,
It is normal for the courts to refer upwards to a higher authority with a matter like this.
The appeal process allows for just such a scenario. The lower court is a kind of sieve, to assess the merit of further consideration.
For those interested, here is the Court of Session findings;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EELEBPQWsAADkEA.jpg
and
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EELECOyWkAAO3pf.jpg
This is the summary.
Full reasoning will follow on Friday.
-
No that's not right Idler.
Any Company accountant who did that would be jailed if they were found out.
But this is what happens when you sack the people who would enforce it because of 'austerity'.
-
If Johnson is found to be a treasonous lying shitebag by the Supreme Court, I guess he could appeal to the European Court of Justice...
:woot:
-
I don't understand what his appeal is to anyone.
-
And with Parliament conveniently sidelined, so there's no way of controlling the Govt, look what the bas**rds are cooking up now.
https://mobile.twitter.com/alexGspence/status/1171419531169947648
Remember, this is Cummings who is still under criminal investigation for his actions during the 2016 Referendum. Cummings who used Cambridge Analytica to identify people who were susceptible to being bombarded with lies about the EU. Cummings who is now taking it to a whole new level. He doesn't even have to break the law on financing the operation now. He can just drag data in from every time that anyone of us uses the gov.uk website to claim benefits or pension or pay income tax or car tax or apply for a passport.
He's wanting that data about you and me and every other f**ker in the country. Presumably so he can target his lies in the General Election.
This is how is happens folks. If you just "meh" at every step, you don't deserve to live in a functioning democracy.
sorry BST we can't put the clocks back so long as long "you lot" accept cookies willie nilly this will happen just like you clean your teeth at night clean your computer.
companies actually sell data about you surely you know that
hope you can read this story "Google accused of secretly feeding personal data to advertisers"
https://www.ft.com/content/e3e1697e-ce57-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/09/04/google-accused-secretly-feeding-personal-data-advertisers/
-
Didn't realise it was all our fault because big data companies acted unethically and illegally?
-
It gets deeper and murkier.
Apparently Cabinet Ministers were not given access to all the legal advice which the Govt claims it took over proroguing Parliament.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1171783621226745858
-
Way to confuse people, one court says it's legal another says it is not.....
Yes, because the higher court is correcting the judgment of the lower court, that is how the system works. The Supreme Court will hear both cases (the Scottish one and the Gina Miller one) on Tuesday. The Supreme Court is the highest Court in the land so the Government will have no one left to appeal to after their judgment.
-
I do hope LNER/DNA Card are ready for the surge in train tickets to London to see Boris's head on a spike outside the Tower.
Crikey Rob, that is an interesting one.
Maybe if HS2 had been ready some people could have travelled on that, got there a few minutes faster than everyone else and got the best viewing points.
-
I see the line from Cummings now is that the Scottish Courts are untrustworthy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1171726506772631553
He's a f**king maniac. There is nothing he won't try to smash in order to have his way.
I saw a great quote today which referenced Cummings telling journalists yesterday to 'go listen to the people outside of London'.
He clearly didn't mean that bit of 'outside London' or those people!
-
I see the line from Cummings now is that the Scottish Courts are untrustworthy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1171726506772631553
He's a f**king maniac. There is nothing he won't try to smash in order to have his way.
I saw a great quote today which referenced Cummings telling journalists yesterday to 'go listen to the people outside of London'.
He clearly didn't mean that bit of 'outside London' or those people!
No, he meant places like Donny and Barnsley, and he's f*cking right; just wait and see.
-
SS
Let me get this right. You REALLY believe that Cummings gives two shites about Doncaster? Honestly?
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=273194.msg904825#msg904825
-
Meanwhile, on the day that the most right wing PM in 100 years has been found guilty of lying to the Queen, the BBC's flagship political interview programme has...
...a right wing interviewer interviewing a right wing minister and an unelected far right serial liar.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jason_Keen/status/1171823702478131200
That'll be the BBC that's so obsessed with "balance"that they get some crank paid by oil companies to provide "balance" every time they discuss the scientific evidence on climate change.
-
''PM aide Dominic Cummings blames 'rich Remainers' in Brexit snap at TV reporter
Privately-schooled Dominic Cummings, whose baronet father-in-law owns a haunted castle, had a characteristically blunt response while leaving his £1.6m townhouse''
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/pm-aide-dominic-cummings-blames-19928675
He certainly can't have meant these, can he?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/englands-most-deprived-towns-cities-18838926
I'm losing count now, how many years have the conservatives ruled?
-
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19 (https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19)
Yellowhammer docs thread.
-
Don't worry DO there will be someone from the the brexit fan club to dismiss it shortly.
-
As that is a worst case scenario I would like to see what is the most likely outcome to get a balanced view
-
Just because it's a worst case scenario doesn't mean it's not a balanced and educated view, the best case scenario is no-brexit.
-
Back on topic for a sec:
''Why the Scottish court ruling on proroguing Parliament is significant''
''The ruling by Scotland's highest civil court that it was illegal to shut the UK Parliament is - in the true sense of the word - extraordinary.
Normally courts do not intervene in the decisions of the government, using the principle of a "margin of appreciation," which gives ministers more leeway under the law than that of ordinary people or organisations.
So the fact that all three judges at the Court of Session have - albeit by different routes - arrived at the decision that they can intervene is highly significant''
The case was brought to the Court of Session by a cross-party group of 75 parliamentarians, who argued the PM had exceeded his powers.
Lord Doherty heard both sides of the argument and ruled last week that the issue was for the judgement of politicians and voters, and not the courts.
But when the case was taken to three appeal judges, they saw it differently.
They concluded that the PM was attempting to prevent Parliament holding the government to account, ahead of Brexit''
-
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19 (https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19)
Yellowhammer docs thread.
Shall we have a quiz? So what does it say in the redacted para 15?
I reckon its the troops on the streets.
-
As that is a worst case scenario I would like to see what is the most likely outcome to get a balanced view
Reasonable worst case scenario.
-
If the high court sustains the Scottish court's verdict we will know come next week hopefully. But that's not a bad guess Wilts
-
One of the big points on there is medicine. If there's shortages on them, and I've seen a list of one's at risk and some are cancer medication, etc. That's people's lives and for what gains? Even if this is a worst case, there will still be issues and there will be needless deaths from no deal.
-
That's right DO, the doctor that drew up the plan challenged Muppet Rees-Mogg after he called him a scaremonger, MRG of course backed down to show he wasn't across the detail himself.
But yes people lives at risk for no cause.
-
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19 (https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19)
Yellowhammer docs thread.
Shall we have a quiz? So what does it say in the redacted para 15?
I reckon its the troops on the streets.
Nope.
No petrol at the pumps for a couple of weeks, apparently.
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1171864228879372289
-
You reading that, Brexit supporters?
Yellowhammer was leaked to this journalist in August. It was headed "Base Scenario".
What's been released today is identical to the document she got last month,except it's headed "Reasonable Worst Case Scenario".
You
Are
Being
Lied
To
Systematically
By
This
Govt.
-
Back on topic for a sec:
''Why the Scottish court ruling on proroguing Parliament is significant''
''The ruling by Scotland's highest civil court that it was illegal to shut the UK Parliament is - in the true sense of the word - extraordinary.
Normally courts do not intervene in the decisions of the government, using the principle of a "margin of appreciation," which gives ministers more leeway under the law than that of ordinary people or organisations.
So the fact that all three judges at the Court of Session have - albeit by different routes - arrived at the decision that they can intervene is highly significant''
The case was brought to the Court of Session by a cross-party group of 75 parliamentarians, who argued the PM had exceeded his powers.
Lord Doherty heard both sides of the argument and ruled last week that the issue was for the judgement of politicians and voters, and not the courts.
But when the case was taken to three appeal judges, they saw it differently.
They concluded that the PM was attempting to prevent Parliament holding the government to account, ahead of Brexit''
it will be only significant if next week they don’t overturn it as last week there was no problem
-
Bpool
That's wrong I'm afraid.
There wasn't "no problem" last week.
The High Court in London judged that it was a political matter and not one for the courts. They made no comment on whether Johnson had actually lied.
The Scottish Court of Session today ruled that because it was such an important issue, it WAS a matter for the court to deal with, and they judged that Johnson HAD lied.
Note that was a unanimous decision from the 3 senior judges AND the Scottish Court of Session is a higher court than the London High Court.
The Supreme Court next week may well judge that it's not a matter for the courts to interfere with. But there is no one with an ounce of integrity and self-respect who now thinks Johnson actually told the truth to the Queen.
Question is, do you care about that?
-
There was a rumour that the redacted paragraph in Yellowhammer was instructions to broadcasters in the event of No Deal.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBirmingham6/status/1171698671576109057
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
-
Jesus, I could've put me house on you posting something like that.
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
-
For a calm kind of guy, it really makes my piss boil to see Jeremy Corbyn sit back in an Alan B'stard style of calm innocence while at the same time showing an expression of shock and disbelief at the rest of the population because it has failed to keep up with his understanding of the situation.
It is f**king embarrassing......... yet people fall for it!
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
-
So let's just recap.
Boris Johnson has been judged to have lied to the Queen, in order to illegally close down Parliament, to stop MPs holding him to account while he tries to ram through a No Deal Brexit, the consequences of which he lied about.
And the response from the Brexit Death Cult in here is not so much as a shrug of the shoulders?
And you all claim to be passionate defenders of democracy!?!
-
Farage says it's Project Fear. No mate, it's the Governments analysis on the affects of the country f**king itself over. f**k me the Far Right are spesh.
-
You reading that, Brexit supporters?
Yellowhammer was leaked to this journalist in August. It was headed "Base Scenario".
What's been released today is identical to the document she got last month,except it's headed "Reasonable Worst Case Scenario".
You
Are
Being
Lied
To
Systematically
By
This
Govt.
As I was saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1171909615157764096
Utterly f**king shameless.
See you, Brexit/Tory supporters? You KNOW what's happening here don't you?
Gove thinks you're either too thick to know he's lying to you, or too far gone to care.
-
It's just hit me.
How f**king surreal this is.
The Govt has had to be legally stopped by Parliament from going for No Deal
The Govt's own planning documents say that the base case outcome after No Deal is food and medicine shortages, no petrol at the pumps, queues of lorries back from Dover to the Dartford Tunnel and riots.
Govt policy was to go for that. And there's folk in here just nodding and saying, "Aye. No bother." And whining that Parliament stopping them was an insult to the common man.
f**k me. We might actually be permanently f**ked here, if folk can't see through this.
-
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see people out on the streets rioting causing chaos and generally disrupting everyone's lives screaming I want no deal and I want it now?
-
If YellowHammer is the worst case, what’s the best case? Remaining?
-
Gaz.
It's NOT the worst case. The Govt is systematically lying about this.
-
The Yellowhammer file, which is redacted in parts and almost identical to a version leaked to the Sunday Times last month, says a no-deal Brexit could lead to:
a "decrease" in certain types of fresh food and "shorter supply" of key ingredients
price rises for food and fuel, which would "disproportionately" affect those with low incomes
"disruption lasting up to six months" potentially affecting medicines and medical supplies
protests and counter-protests across the UK
lorries waiting for more than two days to cross the English Channel
The document also says some businesses could cease trading, the black market could grow, and some adult social care providers might fail.
Three years to plan, what could go wrong?
-
As I've said before leave voters are too stubborn to admit they got it wrong. Fair enough vote for sunlit uplands, but when the FACTS are that brexit will be a load of shit, they still say "yep, that's what I want, that's what I voted for".
-
It's really like a death cult at this point.
-
See. Another day, another lie from the complusive liar.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49674516
The High Court in London did NOT "plainly agree" with him. It said it wasn't their job to get involved. It made no comment whatsoever on whether he had lied or not
But that's Johnson. When in a corner, just lie and assume enough people are too thick or too bored to worry about it.
-
From The Guardian (that nice independent newspaper)
The Guardian view on Boris Johnson and the crown: a clear abuse of power
last para:
The prime minister could still prove his respect for law by conceding that the prorogation was ill-conceived and seeking its reversal, although that would be out of character. It is revealing that Downing Street’s initial response to Wednesday’s ruling, briefed anonymously, insinuated that a Scottish court might be less reliable than an English one; not impartial on Brexit-related matters. Clarifications were hastily issued, but the damage was done. A trustworthy government does not have to make explicit its belief in the independence of the judiciary and its readiness to uphold the rule of law. But this administration holds fundamental precepts of democracy in contempt. Since Mr Johnson has no respect for the unwritten conventions that underpin the British constitution, he plainly cannot be trusted with the powers afforded by those conventions to the office of prime minister.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/11/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnson-and-the-crown-a-clear-abuse-of-power
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
Here we go again; "a bunch of old white men".
Have you any idea how racist and insulting that is?
THAT's what this is about; 3 years of insults and sneering from you lot. We'll take our revenge in the right way; in the polling booths.
-
That's may be OK for you landed gentry-tory toffs but what about the workers?
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
Here we go again; "a bunch of old white men".
Have you any idea how racist and insulting that is?
THAT's what this is about; 3 years of insults and sneering from you lot. We'll take our revenge in the right way; in the polling booths.
It’s generally only racist white people that take offence to people being referred to as white.
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
Here we go again; "a bunch of old white men".
Have you any idea how racist and insulting that is?
THAT's what this is about; 3 years of insults and sneering from you lot. We'll take our revenge in the right way; in the polling booths.
It’s generally only racist white people that take offence to people being referred to as white.
You're way out of line Gaz; I've never been racist in my life.
-
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19 (https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1171856467596578816?s=19)
Yellowhammer docs thread.
Shall we have a quiz? So what does it say in the redacted para 15?
I reckon its the troops on the streets.
Nope.
No petrol at the pumps for a couple of weeks, apparently.
We were both (sort of) right. Rosamund Unwin was interviewed on the radio today and as she has already published the info she was able to say that it is: the closure of several oil refineries with around 2500 job losses, fuel shortages, rationing and price rises and troops being used to drive tankers.
Who knew taking back control would lead to so many benefits.
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
Here we go again; "a bunch of old white men".
Have you any idea how racist and insulting that is?
THAT's what this is about; 3 years of insults and sneering from you lot. We'll take our revenge in the right way; in the polling booths.
It's not racist. The people making the comments were white and over 55.
-
Why do you think every labour leader has told the truth to the queen? If labour got in with Corbyn in charge because of his foreign policy ect. You would have to worry that the country would be worse off, of that there is no doubt as he is a liability but you would still vote labour bst on the blind trust it would work out would you agree with that?
We've put in the Conservatives and since 2015 they've f**ked up this country, you're going on a bunch of what ifs. Stop being so ridiculous.
If you notice, you never actually get a straight response. It's always "something something something Labour".
Reminds me of that debate where a bunch of old white men were asking Corbyn again and again why he wouldn't nuke a bunch of innocent people.
FFS our current government sell weapons to Saudi Arabia who either then sell them to ISIS or attack Yemen with them.
Here we go again; "a bunch of old white men".
Have you any idea how racist and insulting that is?
THAT's what this is about; 3 years of insults and sneering from you lot. We'll take our revenge in the right way; in the polling booths.
It's not racist. The people making the comments were white and over 55.
Let's clear this up. I'm not accusing you of being racist, and never would. On reflection, I should have said that the statement could be considered racist.
I never said that you intentionally made a racist statement. My criticism was how it came across. Which is my point; that the insulting and sneering on both sides needs to stop.
We'll all get our chance in a few weeks time to do it democratically, in the polling booths.
-
Remainers remind me of Liverpool fans. Offended by everything ashamed of nothing
-
Remainers remind me of Liverpool fans. Offended by everything ashamed of nothing
I like how you posted that right after a Leaver being offended by something of nothing.
-
That's a very helpful contribution Padge. Thanks for that.
-
That's may be OK for you landed gentry-tory toffs but what about the workers?
that’s a very strange way of putting it, there are many labour mps that are millionaires I know many labour voters that are wealthy and have hardly ever worked, the same goes with the tories of course, you say the workers but labour get more voters off people that don’t work than any other party
-
That's may be OK for you landed gentry-tory toffs but what about the workers?
that’s a very strange way of putting it, there are many labour mps that are millionaires I know many labour voters that are wealthy and have hardly ever worked, the same goes with the tories of course, you say the workers but labour get more voters off people that don’t work than any other party
You still haven't answered if you're bothered that Boris Johnson lied to the Queen x
-
I will answer when we find out if he has lied to the queen, last week they said he hadn’t, this week they say he has, and probably next week he won’t have lied, So I’ll wait till we have the final verdict before I comment if that’s ok with you mate
-
It's not that difficult. Hypothetically, do you think it's wrong for the Prime Minister to lie to the Queen?
-
I will answer when we find out if he has lied to the queen, last week they said he hadn’t, this week they say he has, and probably next week he won’t have lied, So I’ll wait till we have the final verdict before I comment if that’s ok with you mate
They never said he didn't last week. They said it's not a matter for the courts to decide.
-
Bpool.
I hope you won't find it patronising if I spell this out for you again.
The London High Court did NOT say that Johnson hadn't lied to the Queen. They didn't mention it. Made no comment about it whatsoever. None.
They said that in their opinion, it wasn't suitable for them to make a judgement.
You are being played by Johnson, who today has lied in front of the cameras by saying precisely what you have just repeated.
-
The principle is the same mate and as you no next week the government will win the case and it will be back to people’s opinions
-
I’m not being played at all as I have payed very little attention to it to be honest I’ve got more important things going on at the minute, if boris has lies do you think he will be the first or the last most of them seem very good at it, my pal was raging about how he could lie to the queen yet he thinks the monarchy should have ceased to exist years ago, people like to be in a rage when it suits
-
Ok. Let's make it easier.
Do you accept that Johnson lied on this topic today, and you just repeated the lie?
-
The principle is the same mate and as you no next week the government will win the case and it will be back to people’s opinions
How is the principle the same? How is a court deciding not to involve itself the same as them agreeing with him?
-
I'll make it easier for you bp, do you think it a good thing that we have a lying fxxx for a PM?
-
I'll make it easier for you bp, do you think it a good thing that we have a lying fxxx for a PM?
if you can be bothered type in google Corbyn lies what you will find is a load of useless information about little lies Jc has told, if you read it maybe you could come back and say how your going to vote for a lying f..k to be out next pm
-
You're a funny guy bp
-
Why what’s the difference sydney is it ok for 1 and not the other?
-
You seem to be making the argument that it's fine for Boris to lie.
-
How the rest of the world sees us.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49689123
The NY Times had got it right. Our Constitution relies on the Govt acting in a fair and reasonable way. When you get a maniac like Cummings in charge, there's not a lot to stop him.
Still, it's good to see that Iran has the same opinion on the sanctity of the 2016 vote as the Brexit Death Cultists in here. That's now Putin, Trump and the Ayatollahs on your side and everyone else shaking their heads and trying not to laugh at us.
-
Just catching up with the Supreme Court proceedings over lunch.
Fascinating stuff.
The QC acting for the Govt is claiming that the Govt has the absolute right to prorogue Parliament for any reason whatsoever and doesn't have to be truthful about why it is doing it. Essentially, he's saying that the Queen can be lied to with impunity and it's no business of the courts' to get involved.
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That seems to be a strange case for them to make, BST. Surely arguing that your client didn't lie but it should be perfectly ok if he had would be taken by anyone with two brain cells to mean 'of course he lied but you can't expect us to actually admit he did now can you?'.
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Heres my prediction ahead of the Supreme Court judgement
If Johnson wins he will say something like " the Supreme Court in its wisdom has looked at this and has ruled that we the Govenment have acted responsibly and were within the Law in Proroguing Parliament - and well done them. So thats it they are letting us / me get on with our jobs and well done them"
If Johnson loses he will say " the Supreme Court should never have been involved with this matter as it has nothing at all to do with the Judiciary and was / is SOLELY a matter for we the Politicians and we will have to see where we go from here"
Others can add to that or refine my "prediction" and indeed say what Corbyn will say in the above 2 scenarios
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I don’t often venture into this thread but because of the Court ruling today I had a peek.
What will Corbyn say?
Whatever the outcome, he will say the polar opposite to what Johnson says I should imagine.
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Heres my prediction ahead of the Supreme Court judgement
If Johnson wins he will say something like " the Supreme Court in its wisdom has looked at this and has ruled that we the Govenment have acted responsibly and were within the Law in Proroguing Parliament - and well done them. So thats it they are letting us / me get on with our jobs and well done them"
If Johnson loses he will say " the Supreme Court should never have been involved with this matter as it has nothing at all to do with the Judiciary and was / is SOLELY a matter for we the Politicians and we will have to see where we go from here"
Others can add to that or refine my "prediction" and indeed say what Corbyn will say in the above 2 scenarios
I bet he's written two pieces of paper just waiting to decide which one to use!
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Well, this is going to get interesting. Prorogation ruled unlawful just now.
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What a f**king mess..
We now have a PM who has been deemed to have acted unlawfully at a critical time politically for the country.
Whether you support Johnson or not, surely to retain any credibility he has to resign.? That in itself would IMHO require a Brexit extension as we need to sort out our own government before we can deal with the EU properly..
Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, this is a clusterf**k of the highest order..
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Seeing Sourbry and Blackford cuddling on the steps of the Supreme Court makes me feel a bit sick. Oh and now Bercow is piping up again...
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Bercow has got to pipe up. It's his job to get Parliament back again!
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He can always appeal to the European Court of Justice...
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Bercow has got to pipe up. It's his job to get Parliament back again!
His job maybe - but he does it with such relish......
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
TBF - I'd be surprised if Corbyn had an opinion on it.... :whistle:
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"Unprecedented, extraordinary, ground breaking - it is difficult to overestimate the constitutional and political significance or today's ruling."
Great quote from the BBC journo reporting on this.
BJ is in big trouble.
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Why indeed. Wait for the papers tomorrow morning. It definitely won't be Boris's fault.
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Why indeed. Wait for the papers tomorrow morning. It definitely won't be Boris's fault.
Oh I think it will be.
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Does this mean that every law passed by parliament must now go to the supreme court to be verified, Jump about and celebrate your moment, this opens a can of worms for any law in future that can be challenged by the rich establishment.
Have the MP's not voting for article 50 last March now broken the law?
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What irks me a little is that Sourbry is now piping that she wants to "get back into that chamber and ask the questions that need asking"
It's not like this situation has creeped up on them...
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Not only is Boris in trouble. What about all his ministers like Cleverley, Kwarteng and Rees- Mug who are all complicit.
All of em should resign.
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Does this mean that every law passed by parliament must now go to the supreme court to be verified, Jump about and celebrate your moment, this opens a can of worms for any law in future that can be challenged by the rich establishment.
Have the MP's not voting for article 50 last March now broken the law?
I don't even...?
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Does this mean that every law passed by parliament must now go to the supreme court to be verified, Jump about and celebrate your moment, this opens a can of worms for any law in future that can be challenged by the rich establishment.
Have the MP's not voting for article 50 last March now broken the law?
Not even close to what happened here so there's no danger of that.
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One good thing that could come out of this is parliamentary privileged could be a thing of the past, and things said in the H.O.C. can be taken to law for judgement.
As I said, a can of worms opened.
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Does this mean that every law passed by parliament must now go to the supreme court to be verified, Jump about and celebrate your moment, this opens a can of worms for any law in future that can be challenged by the rich establishment.
Have the MP's not voting for article 50 last March now broken the law?
No. If parliament acts by its rules when passing laws then why should there be any problem.?
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Seeing Sourbry and Blackford cuddling on the steps of the Supreme Court makes me feel a bit sick. Oh and now Bercow is piping up again...
TBH I havent stopped laughing that the Liar Johnson has been ruled as acting unlawfully.
And that is and has been the problem right from the beginning - the Referndum vote was too devisive
I expect you and I were on opposite sides of the Voting (I despite my age voted Remain) - and yet I suspect we are level headed people just getting on with our lives
So whereas you were sicked by Soubry and S Ian Blackford and I can see why I was ecstatic that Johnson has been done again
And the truth of the matter with todays ruling is it will change very little. Those that love Johnson will look past what he has "done" and those like me who detest him and what he and his Party have done will continue to do so (split something like 50 50 at a guess)
As someone posted above - its a complete s**tstorm (or something similar)
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When was the last time Parliament was as turbulent as this?? It’s an absolute shambles.
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1642.??
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Seeing Sourbry and Blackford cuddling on the steps of the Supreme Court makes me feel a bit sick. Oh and now Bercow is piping up again...
TBH I havent stopped laughing that the Liar Johnson has been ruled as acting unlawfully.
And that is and has been the problem right from the beginning - the Referndum vote was too devisive
I expect you and I were on opposite sides of the Voting (I despite my age voted Remain) - and yet I suspect we are level headed people just getting on with our lives
So whereas you were sicked by Soubry and S Ian Blackford and I can see why I was ecstatic that Johnson has been done again
And the truth of the matter with todays ruling is it will change very little. Those that love Johnson will look past what he has "done" and those like me who detest him and what he and his Party have done will continue to do so (split something like 50 50 at a guess)
As someone posted above - its a complete s**tstorm (or something similar)
I agree with most of that - TBH, I just want it done with now. I dislike what is happening to my country - a country that I proudly served for many years - perhaps reform is what is needed and this may be the path that leads to it.
I personally think Johnson is an incompetent buffoon who people are only following out of curiosity - a circus performer rather than a statesman to respect...... unfortunately he will still have favour in the public eye - some folk can't see past their cereal box.
However, I really don't care for Corbyn either........ perhaps it's time for a coalition government again.
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One good thing that could come out of this is parliamentary privileged could be a thing of the past, and things said in the H.O.C. can be taken to law for judgement.
As I said, a can of worms opened.
Have you even heard the judgement? It has ruled on absolutely nothing said in the HOC.
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Wait for boolrover. It's always Corbyn fault according to him!
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Does this mean that every law passed by parliament must now go to the supreme court to be verified, Jump about and celebrate your moment, this opens a can of worms for any law in future that can be challenged by the rich establishment.
Have the MP's not voting for article 50 last March now broken the law?
The Supreme Court hasn't 'verified', or even looked at a Law passed by Parliament. It has ruled on the actions of the PM.
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Not only is Boris in trouble. What about all his ministers like Cleverley, Kwarteng and Rees- Mug who are all complicit.
All of em should resign.
Apparently a lot of the Cabinet didn't even know about the prorogation until the decision was made and they were told about it by text. But Rees-Smugg is in it up to his neck as the Leader of the House.
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All the Supreme Court has done is said it's unlawful for the Executive to take unilateral action with the intention of stopping Parliment doing its job. It's been pretty obvious from the start that's what BoJo was doing so I'm not surprised the Judgment went against the Government.
In my view the Judgment has no other impact than to stop us being ruled by an autocrat, and I for one am pleased that the backdoor to us having a dictator prime minister has been slammed shut.
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Should he stay, I can see Boris bringing back the TM Withdrawal Agreement and putting it back on Parliament. A fair few on his side will now see it as the only way to guarantee Brexit happens at all.
I also think that it may well pass. The ERG will know it’s the May Deal or no Brexit.... although nothing would surprise me. Would be ironic to see RM and his cronies voting for it after all the mayhem that's been caused...
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1642.??
That’s what I though!!
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Wait for boolrover. It's always Corbyn fault according to him!
wait for Glynn being a bell end as normal 👍
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1642.??
That’s what I though!!
1911 was fairly turbulent too.
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A unanimous Judgment by the highest court in the land that the Prime Minister acted unlawfully.
I eagerly await to hear how this is Corbyn's fault.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Wait for boolrover. It's always Corbyn fault according to him!
wait for Glynn being a bell end as normal 👍
Oh the humiliation!
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''The Government is tomorrow expected to table a motion paving the way for a short conference recess
Cabinet ministers are working on the assumption that it will pass and Tory conference will still go ahead
September 24, 2019''
Andrew Sparrow the Guardian:
It does not seem obvious to me that such a motion would pass. Boris Johnson no longer has a majority and, if opposition MPs have spent the last three weeks complaining about prorogation, it is hard to see why, as soon as they got back, the first thing they would do would be vote for another recess for the benefit of the Conservative party.
It would be inconvenient, but not impossible, for the Conservative conference (which starts on Sunday, and is due to run until the following Wednesday) to go ahead with the Commons actually sitting. The Commons does not schedule recesses while the SNP are holding their conference. Boris Johnson could deliver his leader’s speech on the Sunday, instead of on the Wednesday morning as planned. And Commons business could be scheduled to minimise the chances of key votes on the Monday or Tuesday.
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The big difference is that all Parliamentary business - and not just tat carried out in the Chambers can carry on, which it couldn't with a prorogation.
Boris was due to go in front a Committee comprising all the Chairmen of the Select Committees and undergo scrutiny the day after prorogation, which could well have been a factor in the timing of it. I can imagne that Committee wanting him in front of them post haste now. Watch this space!
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1176432418171084800
https://mobile.twitter.com/helenmountfield/status/1173138361692938240?lang=en
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The qstn is: what is the ultimate font of constitutional authority under our system. If it is the Monarchy, the monarch's decision is definitive & no court can over-rule it. If it is the Supreme Court then we do not live in a constitutional monarchy. It's as fundamental as that.
— Andrew Lilico (@andrew_lilico) September 24, 2019
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The qstn is: what is the ultimate font of constitutional authority under our system. If it is the Monarchy, the monarch's decision is definitive & no court can over-rule it. If it is the Supreme Court then we do not live in a constitutional monarchy. It's as fundamental as that.
— Andrew Lilico (@andrew_lilico) September 24, 2019
What utter gibberish!
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See I'm struggling here.
We're told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit.
And yet...the only people who are furious with the SC for ruling this illegal are full-on members of the Brexit Death Cult, from Cummings to Farage, to Lilico.
Strange isn't it?
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The qstn is: what is the ultimate font of constitutional authority under our system. If it is the Monarchy, the monarch's decision is definitive & no court can over-rule it. If it is the Supreme Court then we do not live in a constitutional monarchy. It's as fundamental as that.
— Andrew Lilico (@andrew_lilico) September 24, 2019
What utter gibberish!
You have to realise that Lilico is paid by the IEA to write this dogshite, and the IEA are funded by...well, we don't know because they refuse to say, but suffice to say they have been relentlessly pushing a far-Right economic case for half s century, so you can guess it's not ordinary workers
Lilico is the mendacious little shite who pushed that line that, because we give the EU £x then get back a rebate of £y, Johnson wasn't lying when he said that we paid the EU £x. He's one of these people who had a fabulously expensive education, but was never taught about the concept of Lies of Omission.
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See I'm struggling here.
We're told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit.
And yet...the only people who are furious with the SC for ruling this illegal are full-on members of the Brexit Death Cult, from Cummings to Farage, to Lilico.
Strange isn't it?
As I was saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1176432418171084800
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See I'm struggling here.
We're told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit.
And yet...the only people who are furious with the SC for ruling this illegal are full-on members of the Brexit Death Cult, from Cummings to Farage, to Lilico.
Strange isn't it?
As I was saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1176432418171084800
As I was saying.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1181974/Brexit-News-Supreme-Court-ruling-update-latest-Andrew-Bridgen-prorogue-parliament-today
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See I'm struggling here.
We're told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit.
And yet...the only people who are furious with the SC for ruling this illegal are full-on members of the Brexit Death Cult, from Cummings to Farage, to Lilico.
Strange isn't it?
As I was saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1176432418171084800
As I was saying.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1181974/Brexit-News-Supreme-Court-ruling-update-latest-Andrew-Bridgen-prorogue-parliament-today
As I was saying.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/24/brexit-latest-news-supreme-court-ruling-boris-johnson-prorogue/amp/
How can you not explode with f**king fury at this bas**rd?
He's smirked for weeks as he's said that the prorogation was nothing to do with Brexit.
Now he's been found to have acted unlawfully, he's saying the ruling is because people want to frustrate Brexit.
Be clear in your own heads. If you are prepared to support this man, YOU personally are complicit with this attack on truth, honesty and our democratic system. YOU.
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Let's be honest though BST and I agree with you. But if it wasnt for brexit would anyone care?
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See I'm struggling here.
We're told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit.
And yet...the only people who are furious with the SC for ruling this illegal are full-on members of the Brexit Death Cult, from Cummings to Farage, to Lilico.
Strange isn't it?
Yeah and I love it ! As I said earlier and a million times since 2016 - vote too divisive
All three "major" Paties talk of getting B****t sorted and bringing the Country back together.
The latter wont happen in my lifetime - it just CANT
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BFYP.
I genuinely don't understand your question.
Brexit is the single most important peacetime decision that Parliament has had to deal with since 1688. Of COURSE the fact that it's about Brexit is what makes people care about the prorogation.
But that wasn't what I was talking about. It was the out and out lying of our leader on the purpose of the prorogation. And how he is now flipping it round to wind up folk in a "us Vs them elite bas**rds" style.
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Of course I agree with you on that, let's also be honest, it's made little to no difference to anything has it? If parliament wasnt intent on stopping brexit entirely it wouldnt have been challenged. Worth bearing in mind I thought it a bad move all along, not for the difference it made but for the image it portrayed.
The other question today is how the attorney general remains in a job. It appears he advised the PM this to be a legal move.
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BFYP
"If parliament wasnt intent on stopping brexit entirely it wouldnt have been challenged."
Please don't you start this lazy nonsense as well.
There has ALWAYS been a majority in Parliament for Brexit. The problem is and always has been that there is no majority for any SPECIFIC Brexit.
That's not my opinion. Definitive proof of that is here.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=268078.msg908205#msg908205
It is vital that you realise that and do t fall into that lazy trap of saying "Well Parliament has always wanted to block Brexit." That is dangerous rubbish. That is what Farage and the far right are using to whip up anti-Parliament frenzy
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The principle at stake was that any Prime Minister could silence parliament if they thought they didn't agree with them.
John Major's QC gave some stark examples of what this would allow a Prime Minister to do, for example a Prime Minister could suspend parliament for a year, or longer. Or, they could suspend parliament if they thought they were going to lose a vote of no confidence to stop that happening. The possibilities are endless and the Supreme Court has wisely said, hang on a minute, this can't be right. Good on them.
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Major showed that a PM could use prorogation to disband the Armed Forces and Parliament wouldn't be able to stop him doing that unless the SC set today's precedent.
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I have just read on the bbc ticker that Farage thinks the next steps will be a brexit extension followed by a GE.
For once, I agree with him.!
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OMFG this bbc presenter is being a total cock-end, he can’t get a grip on the idea that we must either get a brexit deal, or definitely take no deal off the table before trying to remove Johnson..
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When will Boris have the nerve to show his face in the Commons?
It's Wednesday tomorrow, will there be PMQs..?
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No. Bercow has said there wasn't time for notification of PMQ.
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I hadn't seen that anywhere, thanks BST.
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No. Bercow has said there wasn't time for notification of PMQ.
... as with all "conventions / laws" of Parliament each PMQ session has to be scheduled. It has to have a three day deadline for questions to be raised for the PM to answer (or not as they usually dont answer anything *)
* UNLESS it is one of the obviously "planted" questions from their own side
I also mean this happens whoever is PM and whichever Party they are head of
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Prorogation nothing to do with Brexit? No sour grapes at the tele?
Alison Pearson The Tele:
‘’MPs may think they can postpone Brexit without consequences, but we'll be the judge of that.
I suppose we were half expecting it, weren’t we? Certainly, I have felt it these past few days, a heartsick sensation, a churning; anxiously waiting to hear what the Supreme Court would decide. Still hoping it might go the Government’s way and the prorogation would be found to be legal. (Surely the justices couldn’t, wouldn’t interfere with Parliament?) Fearing, though, that it would end up as a full-blown battle between the People and the Establishment’’
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard The Tele:
‘’Celebrate Gina Miller's right to bring her case: she would be locked up in parts of the EU.
Oddly enough for a Brexiteer, I feel almost exhilarated by the Supreme Court’s action. We are settling matters of enormous constitutional importance through the proper institutions’’
Philip Johnston The Tele:
‘’Britain has become a Republic with Bercow at its head.
The Supreme Court has most brazenly encroached on to territory once considered untouchable
Who governs Britain? Not Boris Johnson, it seems. The powers of the executive, stripped away gradually like the Dance of the Seven Veils since 1689, are now all but gone. The few remaining were taken away by, inter alia, the European Union; the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act, which removed the right of the Prime Minister to seek a dissolution; and now by the Supreme Court in overturning the decision to prorogue Parliament’’
Harry de Quetteville The Tele:
‘’UK on slippery slope to US Supreme Court system now judges have taken decision to rule on affairs of politics.
The Golden Triangle is not, as you might imagine, linked to an area near Bermuda where many ships and planes are said to have mysteriously disappeared.
It is the name colloquially applied to the monarch’s private secretary, the prime minister’s principal private secretary and the cabinet secretary – a trio who are supposed to ensure that the convoy of our democracy – parliament, executive and monarch – plots a smooth and harmonious course.
After Tuesday’s Supreme Court verdict, however, that convoy finds itself in uncharted waters’’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/
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Going to be a brutal few weeks in Parliament now.
Johnson is totally impotent. He's going to be humiliated on a daily basis. Brexit ain't going to happen on 31 Oct. I wonder what effect these things will have on party support.
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Boris Johnson: "I was told Brussels would never accept alternative arrangements to the backstop."
The prick was actually going to let us drop out with no deal, despite the EU telling them time and time again to come up with something.
Why the f*ck do any leavers want more power to these lying f*ckwits? Why can't you see these are the bad guys, these are the ones that have been stringing you along...
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I despair and return again and again to both the big 2 Parties who keep saying its about time we "sorted" B****t out and then get on with bringing the Country back together
Are they for REAL ? It wont happen in my lifetime
If they get "it" over the line there will instantly be lets say 50% of the electorate (to be neutral) clamouring for a return to the EU. After all the (mainly) Tory MP's did not let the 75 Referendum result get in the way of their ideal of leaving the EU. It took them decades but hey they got there
If they dont get "it" over the line there will equally be hell on. Nobody gave a s*** in 75 with such a big winning marging. We just got on with it BUT with Social Media things are more upfront so today it would be a massively different story and there would be outrage
I always thought the vote was too devisive - and said so on here the day after the Referendum - and I predicted that eventually the Politicians would not go ahead with "it" and would throw the whole thing back to the people and say it was them (the people) who had demanded they be listened to.
I have not been proven right yet and may still be wrong but one thing for sure is this is a political s*** storm the likes of which (I suspect) nobody has lived through
Apologies as I have written that so many times on here and here is another thing I often say. Think of the times a new Party comes to power. They immediately blame the outgoing Govt often for 2 or even more Terms of being in power for all the ills they inherited.
They say "they should never have commited to HS2" as an example as it cost us x Billion and we had nowt to spend on this that or the other. Both of them do it and its often but not always an excuse to cover their current failings (remember I am saying both do it)
Can you just imagine what they are going say if we do or dont leave. Just think of how many decades of thay you (perhaps not me will have to endure)?
If we had left ..... blah blah blah
If we hadnt left .... blah blah blah
So long ramble but can anyone tell me just HOW they are going to bring the Country back together cos I sure as hell cant guess
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Johnson is to prorogue again next tuesday;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-suspend-parliament-prorogue-queens-speech-brexit-a9133381.html
So once the EU have rejected his barmpot proposal, best not to have further debate in the HoC.
New session means the door is open again to the May deal.
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So they are now not back till October the 14th The day they were due to be back, while I’m not saying he was right doing it but did it really make any difference or was it just principles?
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So they are now not back till October the 14th The day they were due to be back, while I’m not saying he was right doing it but did it really make any difference or was it just principles?
An interesting point of view.
An alternate one is that, for the sake of shutting up shop for a couple of weeks longer than necessary, and being seen to be a bunch of privileged control freaks who think they own the place, Johnson, Cummings et al went to the extent of acting unlawfully and lying to the Queen.
Why? Did it really make any difference or was it just principles?
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I get that mate but what was achieved in the days that they were made to go back? Nothing that I can see and think it was all a bit of drama for nothing
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So being caught willfully lying to the monarch is a bit of drama over nowt is it?
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I get that mate but what was achieved in the days that they were made to go back? Nothing that I can see and think it was all a bit of drama for nothing
Didn’t they make some progress on a domestic abuse law.?
There will have been other non-brexit work done, but possibly not making the headlines..
If you take your argument to the extreme, they may as well have closed for 6 months.!
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Wondered how long it would take you to pipe up
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I get that mate but what was achieved in the days that they were made to go back? Nothing that I can see and think it was all a bit of drama for nothing
Didn’t they make some progress on a domestic abuse law.?
There will have been other non-brexit work done, but possibly not making the headlines..
If you take your argument to the extreme, they may as well have closed for 6 months.!
I get that idm but such a massive deal was made over it and they needed that time to stop there being a no deal brexit and nothing seemed to happen as I said before I’m not saying it was right what he did
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They already passed the law to force the PM to ask to extend Brexit if a deal hasn’t been agreed.. the deadline for that is the EU summit in a week or so time, so nothing else can happen yet..
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Wondered how long it would take you to pipe up
I was wondering how long it would take you to make a ridiculously simplistic comment that totally ignored the issue myself.
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They already passed the law to force the PM to ask to extend Brexit if a deal hasn’t been agreed.. the deadline for that is the EU summit in a week or so time, so nothing else can happen yet..
I get that idm that was my point all I saw since they got back was shouting and waving papers at each other, if they had not gone back what would be the difference?
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I get that mate but what was achieved in the days that they were made to go back? Nothing that I can see and think it was all a bit of drama for nothing
There's a lot more happens in Parliament than just the theatricals in the Chambers. And most of it is more important.
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Yes of course but all over the media was that boris was doing it so there would not be enough time to stop no deal, they went back after the court case and did anything much to do with brexit go on? It’s a question as I don’t know, everytime I’ve seen on tv there seems about 15 people in there that’s all
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I do tend to agree, it always was a fuss about not a lot in practice.
However, given it's been found to be in contradiction to the law the most important thing is the precedent that it sets going forwards and prevents it from being done at a time when it could be seen to be more damaging.
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It was about having Parliament available if Cummings tried any f**king about.
Perfectly simple.
Cummings had been firing out suggestions that they had a clever way identified by which they could circumvent the Benn Act. So Parliament had to be on standby to hold a confidence vote to bring down the Govt.
Turns out he was bluffing, by the look of it.
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They already passed the law to force the PM to ask to extend Brexit if a deal hasn’t been agreed.. the deadline for that is the EU summit in a week or so time, so nothing else can happen yet..
I get that idm that was my point all I saw since they got back was shouting and waving papers at each other, if they had not gone back what would be the difference?
The difference would be that Johnson would have got his way riding roughshod over legal parliamentary procedures.. what else would he have then done next.?
If you want to see what happens when one leader/party turns a democratic parliament into a dictatorship, look at Germany in 1933..
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Thank you idm bst and byp for your replies