Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on September 08, 2022, 11:26:33 pm
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She deserves her own thread so her performance can be charted
''Liz Truss has underlined her apparent intention to rip up recent economic policies by removing Tom Scholar as the most senior civil servant in the Treasury, despite warnings that his experience could prove vital this winter''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/08/tom-scholar-permanent-secretary-to-the-treasury-sacked-by-liz-truss
Let's hope this has more effect than 'ripping up the carpet'
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Undermining the Independance of the Bank of England
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-22/liz-truss-shouldn-t-mess-with-the-bank-of-england-s-independence
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Kwarteng has announced that the independence of the BoE is "sacrosanct".
Not sure how that squares with his demand that the head of the BoE meet with him twice a week to "coordinate policy" but there you go. I never did get DoubleSpeak.
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Guess who, as Environment secretary, gave Centrica the OK to close the Rough gas storage facility in 2017?
Yes, it was Lizzy!
So if we run out of gas this winter, and have to ration available supplies, then we know that the situation is worse than it would be because of the competence deficit.
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Not forgetting shitty beaches.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/liz-truss-sea-sewage-environment-agency_uk_6305369ae4b00c150d659ef4
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More real world bench marks to judge performance by:
Record 6.8m people waiting for hospital treatment in England.
There are over 1,400 Trussell Trust food banks in the UK, in addition to at least 1,172 independent food banks. (if anyone has separate numbers for England it would be better)
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Still can't believe that Liz Truss is now a 'world leader'. Just let that sink in and realize just how laughable politics has become.
That this lady is anywhere near being Prime Minister of the UK is demoralising on a scale never before experienced.
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Still can't believe that Liz Truss is now a 'world leader'. Just let that sink in and realize just how laughable politics has become.
That this lady is anywhere near being Prime Minister of the UK is demoralising on a scale never before experienced.
That you can say "is demoralising on a scale never before experienced" before she's got the seat warm is massively over promoting some of the liars, crooks, vagabonds and incompetents that have graced the role over the years.
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True but would anyone vote for Liz Truss in a general election under normal circumstances?
She wouldn't have a hope in hell.
The only hope she has of winning a general election is to have a 2 year head start and see if she can actually start helping Britain and British people for a change.
Other previous candidates didn't get the luxury of having a 2 year trial before trying to win the public vote.
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True but would anyone vote for Liz Truss in a general election under normal circumstances?
She wouldn't have a hope in hell.
The only hope she has of winning a general election is to have a 2 year head start and see if she can actually start helping Britain and British people for a change.
Other previous candidates didn't get the luxury of having a 2 year trial before trying to win the public vote.
What needs to happen, for her to stand a real chance in an election, is for the Ukraine war to end, Putin be deposed and Russian gas to return to the European markets.
If that were to happen and energy suddenly became much more affordable, then there would be a huge economic boost, for which the undeserving Truss would no doubt claim the credit.
Unlikely but looking at the news coming out of Ukraine recently not impossible.
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Guess who, as Environment secretary, gave Centrica the OK to close the Rough gas storage facility in 2017?
Yes, it was Lizzy!
So if we run out of gas this winter, and have to ration available supplies, then we know that the situation is worse than it would be because of the competence deficit.
What has that got to do with this thread ,it is allegedly about monitoring her performance as PM.?
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
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She finds herself in a very similar position to what transpired for Brown. He got deserved plaudits for helping to retrieve the country (and the wider world) out of the financial crash and back onto some sort of an even keel. That he delayed going for GE just created a position from which he could not recover(not helped in any way by the Gillian Duffy affair in the election run up)
Truss, should and would in a different world go to the country and have a GE to provide her with a mandate, its obvious that in this present climate that's not an option so she will have to go to full term in the hope of reigning in some of the extraordinary occurrences of the last three years.
She has more than her hands full with that. Outside influences have affected the last parliament and they don't look like coming to her rescue anytime soon.
Im imagining that Wallace factored this in when weighing his options to run for leader this time. A rejig after the next GE after a term of Labour control trying to correct this massive imbalance would be on the minds of prospective leadership candidates.
Truss has more than her hands full, her awkwardness and demeanour may have led many to underestimate her. Interesting two years to see what she can make of this Sh*t storm.
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Yep. I heard that too. I think in reality she had no idea probably where Doncaster was. It was only because the MP kept saying Doncaster / Sheffield airport that gave her an idea.
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DD.
Sorry mate but your recollection is absolutely shot.
Brown pulled out of an election in Summer 2007, well before the GFC.
When the GFC hit he DID organise concerted global economic action that very likely saved the world from a second Great Depression.
He got bugger all credit for that, because Osborne and Cameron waded in immediately the danger had passed, claiming Brown was spending like a drunken sailor and insisting the crisis was all his fault. They streamed ahead in the polls.
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DD.
Sorry mate but your recollection is absolutely shot.
Brown pulled out of an election in Summer 2007, well before the GFC.
When the GFC hit he DID organise concerted global economic action that very likely saved the world from a second Great Depression.
He got bugger all credit for that, because Osborne and Cameron waded in immediately the danger had passed, claiming Brown was spending like a drunken sailor and insisting the crisis was all his fault. They streamed ahead in the polls.
My point was he delayed going to the country until he had too.
The opportunity to go earlier was there but he decided against it. Could it have been that the "polls " were not favourable?
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Yep. I heard that too. I think in reality she had no idea probably where Doncaster was. It was only because the MP kept saying Doncaster / Sheffield airport that gave her an idea.
Someone who went to school in Leeds is very likely to know where Donny is.
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Guess who, as Environment secretary, gave Centrica the OK to close the Rough gas storage facility in 2017?
Yes, it was Lizzy!
So if we run out of gas this winter, and have to ration available supplies, then we know that the situation is worse than it would be because of the competence deficit.
What has that got to do with this thread ,it is allegedly about monitoring her performance as PM.?
Absolutely central to this thread, and her position as PM, Sproty.
The energy crisis and the cost of living pressures will be the most important topics during her time.
She has previous form on energy, and it is very poor.
We can't just ignore the fact that Truss has a professional background with an energy producer (Shell), has received funding from interests connected to energy producers (BP), and has given consent to Centrica (British Gas), to reduce gas storage and rely on just in time supplies from Russia.
All these things are relevant to the issues we face as a country, and her capacity to resolve those issues without bias in favour of vested interests.
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Massive plus to Doncaster? there was nothing but platitudes in her reply. I will watch with interest to see what transpires before presuming she is going to do anything to influence the outcome in the way we all would like.
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DD.
Sorry mate but your recollection is absolutely shot.
Brown pulled out of an election in Summer 2007, well before the GFC.
When the GFC hit he DID organise concerted global economic action that very likely saved the world from a second Great Depression.
He got bugger all credit for that, because Osborne and Cameron waded in immediately the danger had passed, claiming Brown was spending like a drunken sailor and insisting the crisis was all his fault. They streamed ahead in the polls.
My point was he delayed going to the country until he had too.
The opportunity to go earlier was there but he decided against it. Could it have been that the "polls " were not favourable?
The whole issue of Brown bottling the 2007 election is a very odd one.
He was very popular when he took over from Blair in June 2007. Labour got a big bounce in the polls and pulled Labour back into a clear lead for the first time in 18 months. Brown was seen as the brains of the operation and a very surefooted, dependable politician. Oct 2007 looked like the perfect time to call an election and secure his own mandate.
What turned things round was Cameron making a speech a the September Tory conference at which he pledged to massively reduce inheritance tax. That got fantastic media approval. Even though it would have only benefited the richest 10% or so. The Tories got a boost in the polls. Brown, who was normally ruthlessly decisive, quavered and then chose to kybosh rumours of the plan to call an election. That lack of grip made Cameron seem like the one in charge. And the GFC hit straight after. Brown never recovered.
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Yep. I heard that too. I think in reality she had no idea probably where Doncaster was. It was only because the MP kept saying Doncaster / Sheffield airport that gave her an idea.
Truss did ask the New Transport Minister Wendy Trevellyan to look into the situation as a matter of priority.
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Only a small point but it's Anne-Marie not Wendy
She starts every answer ssssooooooooo . Well 80% roughly
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Massive plus to Doncaster? there was nothing but platitudes in her reply. I will watch with interest to see what transpires before presuming she is going to do anything to influence the outcome in the way we all would like.
Agree totally.
Was more interested in the Q immediately before that re the new home for Great British Railways proposed new HQ
MP trying to get Truss to say something on its chances.
Maybe just their MP earning his corn by getting in a mention.
Donny in running as well but Fletcher MP at least raised Airport which is probably the better of the 2 options but I'm not holding my breath
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This is what happens when you appoint loyalists over ability to your front bench .
The chancellor's face is priceless .
https://youtu.be/mNMCkuIBggw
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here's an interesting article from 11th March 2006
it relates to both the late Queen and he Prime Ministers
"Despite being served by 10 prime ministers during her 54 year reign, only two - Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher - are mentioned. "
It is known that the Queen has held some of her previous prime ministers in disdain but she felt a fondness for Mr Dewar.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/default_content/12441538.queens-80th-birthday-tribute-reveals-rapport-dewar-pictures-official-website-show-friendship/
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Yep. I heard that too. I think in reality she had no idea probably where Doncaster was. It was only because the MP kept saying Doncaster / Sheffield airport that gave her an idea.
Someone who went to school in Leeds is very likely to know where Donny is.
Along with her year in a Canadian school and subsequent education at Oxford. She spent about 5 minutes in Leeds. Granted though, she possibly does know where Doncaster is for the purposes of my reply.
She's having some right old time off the job at the moment isn't she? Meanwhile, the rest of us have to work.
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That he delayed going for GE just created a position from which he could not recover(not helped in any way by the Gillian Duffy affair in the election run up)
Doesn't that line show how far we've fallen. A decent and clever prime minister complains in what he thought was a private moment about his own team arranging a meeting with woman who's views whilst populist were old fashioned and bigoted. That became a driver in him leaving. Inside 15 years on we had a bloke who laughs off worse before breakfast on his way to a Russian pissup.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/13/focus-on-growth-not-fiscal-discipline-kwasi-kwarteng-tells-treasury
When Labour were saying this at a time that we had near zero inflation and the bond markets were offering the Govt money at negative interest rates, it was textbook correct economics. The Tories and their lapdogs in the Press said it was dangerous, economically illiterate Marxism.
Now the Tories are proposing to borrow like hell to boost the economy while inflation is ballooning and interest rates are rising. Just like Anthony Barber did in the 70s, f**king the economy for a decade.
They are utterly shameless. Focussed on nothing but a madcap boom in the run up to the Election and to hell with the consequences. So, so dangerous.
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Well I don't see a mention of the massive plus to Doncaster during her very first PM question time!
Oh well let's not let Positives get in the way of the Left wing Bigots on this forum eh!
Yep. I heard that too. I think in reality she had no idea probably where Doncaster was. It was only because the MP kept saying Doncaster / Sheffield airport that gave her an idea.
She knows where Hemsworth is she once stood for election there.
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Crikey. She dodged one there then! :lol:
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No windfall taxes on the gas producers.
Big NI cuts for the highest earners.
Removal of limits on bankers' bonuses.
Anyone see a theme emerging here?
Tories gonna Tory eventually. Even the ones who got elected by convincing working class northerns they were on your side.
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Could any of the above encourage companies to bring their businesses to the UK.
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Well. Good to know that after we've just got rid of an amoral, lying lawbreaker from No10, we have a new broom that is going to swe...
Hang on.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1571183835609534466
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Yeah and threatening the EU with bayonets eh?
Nothing surprises me with this lot.
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Is the opposition any better though ?
Quote by albie:
Off Topic / Re: Will Starmer be "fine" or "fined" ?
« on: Today at 07:41:46 pm »
I see Keith is not allowing even a discussion of public ownership at Labour conference;
https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-from-labour-activists-as-public-ownership-conference-motion-blocked/
Here is what he said to Andrew Neil previously;
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1571138352774279169?cxt=HHwWgsDTob6A580rAAAA
He is just a brylcremed Boris, a habitual liar!
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No windfall taxes on the gas producers.
Big NI cuts for the highest earners.
Removal of limits on bankers' bonuses.
Anyone see a theme emerging here?
Tories gonna Tory eventually. Even the ones who got elected by convincing working class northerns they were on your side.
''The cap was introduced by the EU after the 2007-08 financial crisis. It was part of a set of regulations known as the Capital Requirements Directive that were meant to force the financial sector to insure itself against the kind of weaknesses that led to the crash and a raft of taxpayer bailouts.
The package, which came into force in 2014, included a rule that capped banker bonuses at two times their annual salaries. It covered bonuses in the form of both cash and shares''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/15/what-is-the-banker-bonus-cap-and-could-scrapping-it-boost-growth
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'No idea who this is. Some minor royal or local dignitary'
https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1571855171713662976
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First things's first eh Liz?
The Queen's unnecessarily elongated funeral is now over and so she jets off to New York (net zero Liz?) and bungs the Ukrainians a load more cash.
Meanwhile, disabled Britons are still waiting for their huge £150 help from the Governement.
As you were then.
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First things's first eh Liz?
The Queen's unnecessarily elongated funeral is now over and so she jets off to New York (net zero Liz?) and bungs the Ukrainians a load more cash.
Meanwhile, disabled Britons are still waiting for their huge £150 help from the Governement.
As you were then.
Indeed, she should certainly avoid the united nations general conference.....
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Dizzy Lizzy saying today she's prepared to be unpopular in order to grow the economy .
Which suggests at some point she was popular , she isn't nor ever was , 70% of her own Party don't like her .
The Tory membership only voted for her because she isn't brown .
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... but then she appoints Kwarteng Braverman Cleverley and Badenoch is it so they got nowt
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If bankers bonuses are being boosted to drive growth then bonuses for everyone would drive productivity even more so.
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Yet another big idea from the tory thought bubble production unit will be heading for the shredder.
Levelling Up is so yesterday.
''The United Kingdom is an unparalleled success story – a multi-cultural,
multi-national, multi-ethnic state with the world’s best broadcaster; a vibrantly
creative arts sector; a National Health Service which guarantees care for every
citizen; charities and voluntary groups which perform a million acts of kindness
daily; globally renowned scientists extending the boundaries of knowledge
every year; entrepreneurs developing the products and services which bring
joy and jobs to so many; and millions of citizens whose kindness and
compassion has been so powerfully displayed during the COVID-19 pandemic''
This is the best bit.
''But not everyone shares equally in the UK’s success. While talent is spread equally
across our country, opportunity is not. Levelling up is a mission to challenge, and
change, that unfairness. Levelling up means giving everyone the opportunity to
flourish. It means people everywhere living longer and more fulfilling lives, and
benefitting from sustained rises in living standards and well-being''
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1095544/Executive_Summary.pdf
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If bankers bonuses are being boosted to drive growth then bonuses for everyone would drive productivity even more so.
Most do get some form of bonus, many don't achieve it.....
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BFYP, can you evidence that 'most' do get some form of bonus? Do you count receiving National Minimum Wage as 'bonus'? The vast majority of working people receive no bonuses at all.
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Unbelievable pud! ''most don't achieve it'' sounds like something straight out of 'how the tories hate the working classes' playbook
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Unbelievable pud! ''most don't achieve it'' sounds like something straight out of 'how the tories hate the working classes' playbook
Bonuses stem throughout a business at all levels usually in my experience. They should be used to reward success not failure. I'm of a believer that they should match someone's actual job though. Bonuses have gone through all levels in the companies I've worked for, usually proportionately the middle earners are the ones that lose out most with the high and low earners getting the better % bonuses, but that will vary company to company. Benefits in my company are pretty good so clearly I can't speak for all.
I do think all staff should get rewarded for performance much more than they do actually. You would say it's hating workers I'd say it's actually about rewarding them to a much greater element where it's due. There's tonnes of metrics you could apply to bonuses dependent on scenarios etc.
BFYP, can you evidence that 'most' do get some form of bonus? Do you count receiving National Minimum Wage as 'bonus'? The vast majority of working people receive no bonuses at all.
Three of the 4 businesses I've worked for use them. 7% of all salaries paid in the UK are bonuses, interesting stat that.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
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Unbelievable pud! ''most don't achieve it'' sounds like something straight out of 'how the tories hate the working classes' playbook
Bonuses stem throughout a business at all levels usually in my experience. They should be used to reward success not failure. I'm of a believer that they should match someone's actual job though. Bonuses have gone through all levels in the companies I've worked for, usually proportionately the middle earners are the ones that lose out most with the high and low earners getting the better % bonuses, but that will vary company to company. Benefits in my company are pretty good so clearly I can't speak for all.
I do think all staff should get rewarded for performance much more than they do actually. You would say it's hating workers I'd say it's actually about rewarding them to a much greater element where it's due. There's tonnes of metrics you could apply to bonuses dependent on scenarios etc.
BFYP, can you evidence that 'most' do get some form of bonus? Do you count receiving National Minimum Wage as 'bonus'? The vast majority of working people receive no bonuses at all.
Three of the 4 businesses I've worked for use them. 7% of all salaries paid in the UK are bonuses, interesting stat that.
I worked in manufacturing industry for my whole working life at seven different companies four of them Global entities, firstly at the production end and then in management. Not one of them paid bonuses to anyone at or near the 'sharp end' of the company structure. Your assumption based on your own career experience is way off the mark.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
Bit too Thatcheresque for me but each to their own .
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
I work for a £multi-billion multinational. Everyone gets the same 'bonus' if the company makes an end of year profit - because everyone has contributed to it.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
I work for a £multi-billion multinational. Everyone gets the same 'bonus' if the company makes an end of year profit - because everyone has contributed to it.
Very nice to work for a £multi-billion multinational, even nicer when they give everyone the same bonus "because everyone contributed to it"
Do they also give everyone the same wage "because everyone contributed to it"
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
Bit too Thatcheresque for me but each to their own .
If Thatcher was all about rewarding those who went the extra mile to ensure everone else managed to get a bonus then i dont see an issue with that.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
I work for a £multi-billion multinational. Everyone gets the same 'bonus' if the company makes an end of year profit - because everyone has contributed to it.
We have a hybrid, part personal performance and part company wide, I quite like that approach. The more senior you are the more company performance is the main driver.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
I work for a £multi-billion multinational. Everyone gets the same 'bonus' if the company makes an end of year profit - because everyone has contributed to it.
We have a hybrid, part personal performance and part company wide, I quite like that approach. The more senior you are the more company performance is the main driver.
I'd say most enterprising and go ahead companies work to this model.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
I work for a £multi-billion multinational. Everyone gets the same 'bonus' if the company makes an end of year profit - because everyone has contributed to it.
We have a hybrid, part personal performance and part company wide, I quite like that approach. The more senior you are the more company performance is the main driver.
The football team we all support(well most of us on here) has this very same model.
I don't recall anyone on here having a go at the top players in the club for receiving better wages and a better bonus.
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Truss isn't even trying to disguise her prejudice, all notions of levelling up have been jettisoned. She says fairness is a leftwing idea for goodness sake.
Johnson may have been lax and a compulsive liar but he did say he was a centrist. He may not have been but that's what he thought he was. I think levelling up was a real ambition for him.
With Truss that's all out of the window. Growth is all important and if it takes millionaire bankers to deliver it, so be it. It won't work, you can't deliver economic growth without affordable energy, that's basic. The dash for growth is doomed to failure as it always has been when they've tried it in the past.
I do believe this is the most right wing government we have ever had, and of course we haven't voted for it.
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And now this:
Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.
Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.
“I don’t think there is any chance of fracking in the UK in the near term.”
He said that when Cuadrilla had operated here, it had discovered that the geology of the UK was unsuited to widespread fracking operations. “No sensible investors” would take the risk of embarking on large projects here, he said. “It’s very challenging geology, compared with North America [where fracking is a major industry].”
Unlike the gas-bearing shale deposits in the US, the shale resource in the UK is “heavily faulted and compartmentalised”, making it far harder to exploit at any scale.
This is what Caudrilla thinks, FFS. And Truss reckons this is our energy saviour.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
Bit too Thatcheresque for me but each to their own .
If Thatcher was all about rewarding those who went the extra mile to ensure everone else managed to get a bonus then i dont see an issue with that.
That's not what you originally posted .
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
Bit too Thatcheresque for me but each to their own .
If Thatcher was all about rewarding those who went the extra mile to ensure everone else managed to get a bonus then i dont see an issue with that.
That's not what you originally posted .
You'll have to excuse me then, because that's exactly what i thought i was referring to.
Let me explain from my companies point of view (im sure many companies are very similar)
We have staff in certain roles that are defined by their job roles, skills and competencies, by definition them doing very well in their roles increases the overall profit return for the company(not all staff are in the same position of authority with a responsibility for growth, development and leadership). By completing their roles to a standard way above what is normally expected of someone in that role they have earned themselves a very decent bonus. more so by creating this growth they have also enabled the rest of the workforce to achieve above what was originally agreed in the PDR's this has resulted in them also achieving a good bonus, not as big as the former but nevertheless a very good bonus that is additional to their salary.
What im basically referring to is that some staff have a higher responsibility to enable the business to achieve, if they do well then overall everyone does well.
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For me everyone gets bonuses or noone gets them, if and when they do the whole staff gets them as a percentage of their salary (the same %) from the CEO to the cleaners.
Unbelievably backward and inverse thinking, similar to rewarding every kid at the school sports day for "participating" no losers here mentality.
If you have ever been in or ran a business you would appreciate that you require individuals to step up and do above and beyond to achieve a profitable and successful company, otherwise what is the point.
Bonuses are to be paid for performance that has been above and beyond the required level that the individual is expected top perform at. If he achieves his required level of competence then he is getting a wage or salary for that effort. If he achieves above and beyond then he deserves a bonus for superior performance which has resulted in the business achieving a better then expected return.
If this bonus was to be given to everyone regardless of their individual achievements or even hitting their minimum requirements then where would the business be, why would employees bother trying to strive to achieve?
This is how the company i work for operate, their in business to generate profit, and reward excellence not some"lets give everyone a pay rise and a big bonus because we are nice people and we are all winners.
Life has always had winners and losers, strivers and shirkers. its what differentiates us from your average mammal.
Sounds like proper socialist dogma which ends up with the company going bust.
both
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You want to know why Kwarteng refuses to publish the OBR's predictions of the effect of today's mini-Budget?
Here's Torsten Bell of the independent Resolution Foundation in Parliament yesterday. They have looked at the likely financial effect. This is what he had to say.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1572965311762112517
What the Tories are going to do today is the single most disgraceful, shameless political act in my lifetime. They are going for a crazy boom to try to ram money into people's pockets in time for the next Election. But it is totally unsustainable. It will do massive damage to the economy for many years. And they know damn well, and they will do it anyway.
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Let's see what they say. All feels a gamble and a bit reckless to me. Continually building more and more debt feels reckless and burying our heads in the sand that it's fine to just ignore it, it isn't.
Some of you on the left of politics shouldn't forget though that you've wanted more spending etc for a very long time. Now of course it will be the wrong type of spending.
I do think the whole world economy is slightly hampered by the dollar strength and there doesn't seem to be much conversation about why we continue to use the dollar in so many worldwide transactions.
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For the record, I entirely agree that we desperately need stronger growth. Been saying that ever since the Austerity disaster. But the way to do that is by Govt investment in high quality education, training and capital infrastructure. Not giving away billions to people who already have plenty.
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For the record, I entirely agree that we desperately need stronger growth. Been saying that ever since the Austerity disaster. But the way to do that is by Govt investment in high quality education, training and capital infrastructure. Not giving away billions to people who already have plenty.
I agree actually listening to the statement this morning.
45% tax cut - utterly unnecessary.
20% cut to 19% - fine with that to a point though I still preferred increasing the tax thresholds.
NI Cut - should never have been done in the first place, fix the tax policy as a whole.
Stamp duty changes - can see the logic given interest rates, seems sensible enough.
CT hold - massive for businesses actually and that's one that can stimulate growth so seems sensible.
Enterprise zones - make good sense on paper, be interesting to see the details and if it helps unlock the potential of areas like ours.
Overall the handouts are too generic, they don't necessarily stimulate growth all that well and I doubt they'll work personally. All I see some of it doing is enabling those who are better off to cream more money from the higher interest rates. I'm not at all sure it's targeted enough. Rishi Sunak was wrong to want to put bigger tax increases in, Liz Truss has took it too far.
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I'm still wondering how we can grow the economy without affordable energy.
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Same old Tory policies.
The rich will get significantly richer
while Joe Soap will be expected to wring his cap in thanks for the crumbs off the table.
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This "mini budget" is completely bonkers and will push already failing public services off a cliff.
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fingers x it can be turned around, it's a huge gamble if they are wrong and they have got it wrong for the past 12 years, for the majority that is
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2022/08/05/britain-a-services-superpower-sinking-into-stagnation/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20Britain%20is%20the%20result,economy%2C%20society%2C%20and%20democracy.
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Some of the detail is very interesting though. The investment zones offer a significant opportunity for business growth in the UK and should make it quite an attractive place to do business in theory. This probably the best part of the announcement for me. Interesting to note our area (SYCMA) is one of the areas involved.
Businesses in designated areas in investment zones will benefit from 100% business rates relief on newly occupied and expanded premises. Local authorities hosting Investment Zones will receive 100% of the business rates growth above an agreed baseline in designated sites for 25 years.
In addition businesses will receive full stamp duty land tax relief on land bought for commercial or residential development and a zero rate for Employer National Insurance contributions on new employee earnings up to £50,270 per year.
To incentivise investment there will be a 100% first year enhanced capital allowance relief for plant and machinery used within designated sites and accelerated Enhanced Structures and Buildings Allowance relief of 20% per year.
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BFYP, Would you be investing in a nation where energy bills are unaffordable and unpredictable?
The trouble is the tax breaks are dwarfed by the cost of energy.
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Pud, why don't you look at their record with business zones and get back to us with your findings.
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The government is fighting against the Bank of England here. The Bank raised rates to try and slow the economy, probably engineering a recession in a futile attempt to control inflation... Whilst the government loses its mind and goes all in for growth!
This is nuts.
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"45% tax cut - utterly unnecessary.
20% cut to 19% - fine with that to a point though I still preferred increasing the tax thresholds.
NI Cut - should never have been done in the first place, fix the tax policy as a whole.
Stamp duty changes - can see the logic given interest rates, seems sensible enough."
These make absolutely zero sense in a macroeconomic situation where the key problem is an external supply shock. Cutting taxes gets the economy going when you have a demand problem but they do nothing when the economy is hit by a supply/prices shock [1].
No, actually, they don't do "nothing". They do something. They put more money into people's pockets to spend, which pushes inflation higher and requires the BoE to ramp up interest rates to curb inflation.
And that's before you factor in that these tax cuts are massively skewed towards the already wealthy.
Long term this is absolutely unsustainable. Long term it will cause huge damage which will require very tough decisions to correct. But they are not interested in the long term. Just on pouring petrol on a boom to make people feel good before the next election. Because that's all the Tories have.
[1] And here is the irony. Cutting taxes is precisely the right thing to do in a demand slump recession. When people are worried about losing their jobs, they stop spending, so firms don't sell, so people lose their jobs and firms don't invest and the economy at best stagnates. That was precisely the problem after the GFC and the correct solution was things like slashing VAT to make things cheaper for people to buy. The Tories put 5% on VAT within weeks of being elected in 2010, precisely at the time that they should have been cutting taxes. Now they are cutting taxes precisely at the time they shouldn't.
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Yes the Tories have got all of this arse about face.
The policies they're going with now would have made sense from 2010 onwards, at a time of low inflation and interest rates.
This would have produced growth and left us in a far better position to deal with the issues from covid and Ukraine.
Now it looks like financial suicide
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bst
''Long term this is absolutely unsustainable. Long term it will cause huge damage which will require very tough decisions to correct. But they are not interested in the long term. Just on pouring petrol on a boom to make people feel good before the next election. Because that's all the Tories have''
maybe this is part of the thinking that if labour want to offer a sensible option they will cry their usual shit of ..........
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"45% tax cut - utterly unnecessary.
20% cut to 19% - fine with that to a point though I still preferred increasing the tax thresholds.
NI Cut - should never have been done in the first place, fix the tax policy as a whole.
Stamp duty changes - can see the logic given interest rates, seems sensible enough."
These make absolutely zero sense in a macroeconomic situation where the key problem is an external supply shock. Cutting taxes gets the economy going when you have a demand problem but they do nothing when the economy is hit by a supply/prices shock [1].
No, actually, they don't do "nothing". They do something. They put more money into people's pockets to spend, which pushes inflation higher and requires the BoE to ramp up interest rates to curb inflation.
And that's before you factor in that these tax cuts are massively skewed towards the already wealthy.
Long term this is absolutely unsustainable. Long term it will cause huge damage which will require very tough decisions to correct. But they are not interested in the long term. Just on pouring petrol on a boom to make people feel good before the next election. Because that's all the Tories have.
[1] And here is the irony. Cutting taxes is precisely the right thing to do in a demand slump recession. When people are worried about losing their jobs, they stop spending, so firms don't sell, so people lose their jobs and firms don't invest and the economy at best stagnates. That was precisely the problem after the GFC and the correct solution was things like slashing VAT to make things cheaper for people to buy. The Tories put 5% on VAT within weeks of being elected in 2010, precisely at the time that they should have been cutting taxes. Now they are cutting taxes precisely at the time they shouldn't.
Add on to all of this that they've been arguing against pay increases for people on much lower incomes than those paying the 45% rate because it's inflationary it's some obviously disingenuous. I don't think the average person is going to take them taking the piss out of them so much and so obviously to their faces.
A lot of middle class people are going to be deep in the shit when they have to re-fix their mortgage - like millions of people. Going to be insane.
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye - and not just that, a lot of f**king pain to come for others' benefit.
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
Given a choice, i'd rather be earning 150k a year and paying high tax than earning 22k a year and paying low tax.
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
Then we agree, today is all about buttering up Tory support
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
Then we agree, today is all about buttering up Tory support
Not in the red wall seats though
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
What actually is your point? Are you wanting more benefits? What are you wanting the government to do?
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
What actually is your point? Are you wanting more benefits? What are you wanting the government to do?
Stuff that doesn't mean we pay for the structural failures that have caused the energy crisis rather than firms making massive profits. And then at the same time introduce enormous tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the most wealthy, exacerbating inflationary pressures whilst actively fighting pay increases for people on the grounds that they are inflationary. And then the inevitable of interest rate rises f**king over many homeowners who are going to struggle to pay their mortgages and risk another property crash. Just a few things there anyway of what NOT to do.
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For those who like a graph to summarise the mini-budget, here is one from EiE;
https://twitter.com/eiecampaign/status/1573279779125690368/photo/1
Go on then, explain why this is reasonable in the middle of a cost of living crisis?
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Well the markets like it.
FTSE down 1.5%
Pound down 3% Vs the dollar.
I'm genuinely starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for 50 years.
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For those who like a graph to summarise the mini-budget, here is one from EiE;
https://twitter.com/eiecampaign/status/1573279779125690368/photo/1
Go on then, explain why this is reasonable in the middle of a cost of living crisis?
And THAT is precisely the sort of graph that the OBR would have included in their report today. Which is precisely why Kwarteng banned them from publishing it.
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For those who like a graph to summarise the mini-budget, here is one from EiE;
https://twitter.com/eiecampaign/status/1573279779125690368/photo/1
Go on then, explain why this is reasonable in the middle of a cost of living crisis?
Something something wealth creators, something something they'll take their money elsewhere.
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Well the markets like it.
FTSE down 1.5%
Pound down 3% Vs the dollar.
I'm genuinely starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for 50 years.
She's even starting to convince me that i maybe should vote Labour after all. If just to get these filthy, unclean, vile pirates out of office.
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Nothing in the announcement today that benefits my old mum. Meanwhile in a hotel near me, economic migrants have their hotel rooms cleaned by a private contractor, they get free heating, clothing, food, electric, they have a basketball court installed in what was the car park, they ride on bikes, they get free bus travel etc.
They've all got new trainers and are on their phones constantly. Who pays for their mobile data?
This is how the Tories treat British people who have worked all their lives. Worse than people who don't even have a right to be here. Disgrace.
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1. 09 against the dollar, an all time low. Safe to say the market isn't impressed.
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Well the markets like it.
FTSE down 1.5%
Pound down 3% Vs the dollar.
I'm genuinely starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for 50 years.
I'm sure there's a reason they announced all of this the day after interest rates were set. Not wanting to speculate where certain people may have had their money.
There's a serious question as to why government and bank are not working together. I know people grumble if the banks not independent, but they don't have the same objectives.
It's not the driver on the FTSE though and a portion of the fx movement is the ridiculously strong dollar.
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For those who like a graph to summarise the mini-budget, here is one from EiE;
https://twitter.com/eiecampaign/status/1573279779125690368/photo/1
Go on then, explain why this is reasonable in the middle of a cost of living crisis?
And THAT is precisely the sort of graph that the OBR would have included in their report today. Which is precisely why Kwarteng banned them from publishing it.
So much for levelling up, a manifesto commitment remember.
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This is the Institute for Fiscal Studies' head.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1573307710023647232
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Well the markets like it.
FTSE down 1.5%
Pound down 3% Vs the dollar.
I'm genuinely starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for 50 years.
I'm sure there's a reason they announced all of this the day after interest rates were set. Not wanting to speculate where certain people may have had their money.
There's a serious question as to why government and bank are not working together. I know people grumble if the banks not independent, but they don't have the same objectives.
It's not the driver on the FTSE though and a portion of the fx movement is the ridiculously strong dollar.
£/$ down 3% today
€/$ down 1% today.
£/€ down 2% today.
Clearly today's moves are NOT all down to the strong dollar.
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The whole focus here is The City. The hope must be that the financial sector can find some growth in the global economy to tap into.
As for the wider UK economy, I think growth looks much less likely. Still high energy bills, uncertainty and a squeeze on disposable incomes.
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Is this a political budget just trying to push for some dead cat popularity bounce prior to calling an autumn election before the economy goes completely tits up?
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Well the markets like it.
FTSE down 1.5%
Pound down 3% Vs the dollar.
I'm genuinely starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for 50 years.
I'm sure there's a reason they announced all of this the day after interest rates were set. Not wanting to speculate where certain people may have had their money.
There's a serious question as to why government and bank are not working together. I know people grumble if the banks not independent, but they don't have the same objectives.
It's not the driver on the FTSE though and a portion of the fx movement is the ridiculously strong dollar.
£/$ down 3% today
€/$ down 1% today.
£/€ down 2% today.
Clearly today's moves are NOT all down to the strong dollar.
Never said it was did I? You know as well as I do that's part of it though. Indeed the pound remains higher vs the euro than it was 2 years ago.
Of course it will be interesting to see how other parties react to this now. Can other parties now pledge to increase taxes accross the board or only against the top earners? Can't deny this will lead to a change in thinking politically.
Bar the 45% cut most would favour the tax cuts wouldn't they?
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Just watching Sky News who are saying a UK budget has never had a worse reception on the international markets.
The markets are clearly saying, they don't believe this will generate growth. Its a huge gamble and they don't think it's a good one.
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People earning below the tax threshold are getting f**k all benefit!
Aye, they don’t share the tax burden either
The Tories used to brag about taking more people out of taxation, it’s not their fault they are not taxed on their income, as I say getting f**k all help while the well off get plenty of help
I think your are missing the point Filo, no question you are right, but a statement about taxes wasn’t really going to affect these people
That is my point
What actually is your point? Are you wanting more benefits? What are you wanting the government to do?
I think you know what my point is, I want a fairer society, not a Society where the wealthy increase their wealth while the poorer see nothing but have to pay the same increases as the wealthy in a cost of living crisis
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It doesn't make any political sense never mind economic .
The tax cuts that benefit those the most is an extremely low number and it's not like such people are ever going to vote for a party other than the Tories .
The votes that decide elections are in the middle class and working class plus the pensioners sections of society none of whom benefit from these tax cuts in any way significantly .
The Tories have a solid give or take 30% base who would vote for them even if Dizzy Lizzy had squatted down and pyssed on The Queens coffin on Monday afternoon .
Something isn't right here , even if trickle down economics did work which it doesn't , the clue is in the name , trickle down , which means it would take quite a while to be affective and certainly not before the next election .
Tell what they are doing , they know the game is up so they are handing the wealthy one last bonanza whilst at the same time fecking things up so badly for a potential Labour government .
Think about it , in 1997 they left the UK economy in fairly decent shape and didn't see power for 13 years and not fully in charge for 18 years .
They aren't making the same mistake again , they are setting fire to the oil wells and playing a longer game here .
They'll be back in power by 2030 , you can bet on it .
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
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What I'm not hearing in all this is the word "energy". We're in an energy crisis but they seem to constantly want to avoid it. Kwarteng has even told the governor of the Bank of England to stop blaming inflation on energy price rises!
It so is energy price rises though. It's pushing the core inflation and soaking into the economy and causing secondary inflation. And through that inflation we have price rises in all sectors leading to industrial unrest, strikes, the lot.
So he's put a cap on energy prices but they are still a lot higher than last year. And how do we pay for the cost of this energy cap? It goes on the national credit card. Never mind the energy companies who are making eye watering sums. That's a problem for you all in the future.
So they dance around and pretend it's not an energy crisis. It's the wealthy not earning enough to invest and drive growth or something. Right?
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
More windfall taxes on the energy giants profiteering out of the Ukraine war.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Nobody knows because they haven't got any polices .
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
More windfall taxes on the energy giants profiteering out of the Ukraine war.
Imagine you were selling a product that your very business depended on. There is a shortage of that product, it’s wholesale cost has gone up and the future supply of that product is very uncertain. What would you do in the short term?
The government are trying to increase the supply with lifting the fracking ban.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Nobody knows because they haven't got any polices .
That's not right. Starmer has been clear that he would help fund the energy cap through a windfall tax.
Beyond that, I think there is a reality to face. High energy prices has made the country poorer and there's not a lot that can be done. I'd like to think he could level with us on that score.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
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Seems she is a Norwich fan too. And is ok with spending big there while putting on the job account.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
More windfall taxes on the energy giants profiteering out of the Ukraine war.
Imagine you were selling a product that your very business depended on. There is a shortage of that product, it’s wholesale cost has gone up and the future supply of that product is very uncertain. What would you do in the short term?
The government are trying to increase the supply with lifting the fracking ban.
The problem with fracking is it can't be brought online fast enough to make a difference this winter or next. It can't produce the volumes required to lower the wholesale price of gas.
Kwarteng has explained this thoroughly.
So what's the point?
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
There is not a finite amount of money in the world but there is a finite amount of hydrocarbons that can be extracted affordably.
Energy is still mostly produced by burning hydrocarbons and money is a token that mostly represents energy.
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It's worth remembering the head honcho of Caudrilla has also said that the geology in the UK means fracking is just not a worthwhile venture here.
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We’ll see on energy. It’s all very unpredictable.
On tax, weren’t Labour complaining about taxes and the national insurance hike a few months ago?
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Without wanting to harp on about Covid again, it does however feel worth mentioning that in all likelihood we would have been under Covid restrictions for longer under a Labour government and thus destroying the economy even more than the Tories did.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Without wanting to harp on about Covid again, it does however feel worth mentioning that in all likelihood we would have been under Covid restrictions for longer under a Labour government and thus destroying the economy even more than the Tories did.
Does it "feel" like that?
I'm not sure this is a valid point. Mostly Labour wanted to lockdown harder and faster, in order to exit those lockdowns sooner with less damage being incurred.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Without wanting to harp on about Covid again, it does however feel worth mentioning that in all likelihood we would have been under Covid restrictions for longer under a Labour government and thus destroying the economy even more than the Tories did.
Does it "feel" like that?
I'm not sure this is a valid point. Mostly Labour wanted to lockdown harder and faster, in order to exit those lockdowns sooner with less damage being incurred.
You still believe that, even now?
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Without wanting to harp on about Covid again, it does however feel worth mentioning that in all likelihood we would have been under Covid restrictions for longer under a Labour government and thus destroying the economy even more than the Tories did.
Does it "feel" like that?
I'm not sure this is a valid point. Mostly Labour wanted to lockdown harder and faster, in order to exit those lockdowns sooner with less damage being incurred.
This must be the daftest, most naive thing i've read. Labour would have had us locked away last Xmas when clearly there was no need. As already now proven.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
Without wanting to harp on about Covid again, it does however feel worth mentioning that in all likelihood we would have been under Covid restrictions for longer under a Labour government and thus destroying the economy even more than the Tories did.
Does it "feel" like that?
I'm not sure this is a valid point. Mostly Labour wanted to lockdown harder and faster, in order to exit those lockdowns sooner with less damage being incurred.
they were wanting lockdowns and restrictions long after we had opened up again
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Bloke moaning about the NHS wanted more patients to be sent to the NHS.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
You need to go back further.
The country missed a once in a century chance through the 2010s to borrow at negative interest rates and invest in productive infrastructure.
Labour was calling for that throughout the decade. The Tories ignored it. And we are now where we are.
This is not fixable over 3 years. It's going to take 20 years of sensible Government after 2024 to repair the insanity of the past decade and a half.
Listen next week to Rachel Reeves set out a sane long term plan to start repairi g the damage.
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Bloke moaning about the NHS wanted more patients to be sent to the NHS.
:lol: :lol:
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Read this thread and think about the b*llocks that the Tories have talked about economics while f**king up the economy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1573385305339858944
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''We hold all the cards''
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
You can print as much money as you like but it'll be increasingly worth less unless the gold reserves supporting it increases at the same rate.
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And to think brown sold off all the yellow stuff. for peanuts :headbang:
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And to think brown sold off all the yellow stuff. for peanuts :headbang:
...and yet Truss and Kwarteng are telling us the last 12 years have been a failure and they want to focus on growth instead. Which is exactly the objective Gordon Brown had before Osbourne put a stop to it.
It's a funny old world.
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And to think brown sold off all the yellow stuff. for peanuts :headbang:
Compare it to all the brown stuff the tories have been selling off the past 12 years.
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So does that make Browns decision a good one back then?
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So does that make Browns decision a good one back then?
What's the point in having money in a safe if you want it to benefit the country? Gold reserves are only a benefit when you sell them.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
You can print as much money as you like but it'll be increasingly worth less unless the gold reserves supporting it increases at the same rate.
Exactly. Money is made through growing an economy, not printing it. A rich person paying less tax doesn’t mean that that is less money for a poorer person in a free market society.
We focus too much on how to divide the pie rather than how to make it bigger.
Look at Singapore / Switzerland as economies and societies.
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Unconfirmed reports that following yesterday's mini budget letters from disgruntled Tory MP's have reached Graham Brady .
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Why wasn't fuel duty cut or even mentioned?
Cutting fuel duty would have led to everyone benefitting and not just the wealthy.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
You can print as much money as you like but it'll be increasingly worth less unless the gold reserves supporting it increases at the same rate.
Exactly. Money is made through growing an economy, not printing it. A rich person paying less tax doesn’t mean that that is less money for a poorer person in a free market society.
We focus too much on how to divide the pie rather than how to make it bigger.
Look at Singapore / Switzerland as economies and societies.
Labour has had text ook economic policies for 30 years on how to make the pie bigger. It's been the past 12 years under this shit shower that growth has collapsed.
And you absolutely don't get real, sustained growth back by pouring money into already rich pockets.
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Why wasn't fuel duty cut or even mentioned?
Cutting fuel duty would have led to everyone benefitting and not just the wealthy.
Not those that done buy fuel. We need to reduce fuel use not increase it.
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Just imagine the reaction if a Labour Chancellor had presented a new fiscal plan, with zero attempt to have an independent costing, and the markets had reacted by the Pound dropping 4% and the interest rate that Govt pays on debt increasing by the most in a single day for 31 years.
Just close your eyes and try to imagine it.
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Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
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About right
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Just imagine the reaction if a Labour Chancellor had presented a new fiscal plan, with zero attempt to have an independent costing, and the markets had reacted by the Pound dropping 4% and the interest rate that Govt pays on debt increasing by the most in a single day for 31 years.
Just close your eyes and try to imagine it.
I did try what you said.
It turned out that it was just the same but with different people of another persuasion having a pop at a different Party.
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What would Labour have done differently over the last 3 years to put the economy in a better place now? Not a jibe just curious if there’s an answer I’m missing.
They wouldn't have let the economy get into the state it was 3 years ago because of Tory austerity in the first place.
I didn’t like austerity. It is based on this fallacy that there is a finite amount of money in the world and that you have to take it from one place to have more in another.
Although, that same logic is applying now with those opposing tax cuts.
You can print as much money as you like but it'll be increasingly worth less unless the gold reserves supporting it increases at the same rate.
Exactly. Money is made through growing an economy, not printing it. A rich person paying less tax doesn’t mean that that is less money for a poorer person in a free market society.
We focus too much on how to divide the pie rather than how to make it bigger.
Look at Singapore / Switzerland as economies and societies.
Labour has had text ook economic policies for 30 years on how to make the pie bigger. It's been the past 12 years under this shit shower that growth has collapsed.
And you absolutely don't get real, sustained growth back by pouring money into already rich pockets.
Johnson’s government was not economically conservative.
Then before that there was Brexit ( I didn’t vote for that )
Ireland have shot up on the Human Development Index, and Switzerland are top. Both conservative / libertarian economically.
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Just imagine the reaction if a Labour Chancellor had presented a new fiscal plan, with zero attempt to have an independent costing, and the markets had reacted by the Pound dropping 4% and the interest rate that Govt pays on debt increasing by the most in a single day for 31 years.
Just close your eyes and try to imagine it.
I did try what you said.
It turned out that it was just the same but with different people of another persuasion having a pop at a different Party.
I don’t think that’s quite accurate outside the echo chambers of this forum / social media in general. I must admit I haven’t looked at the papers, but if this had been under a Labour Government then the heads of the Labour front bench would’ve been superimposed on vegetables and steaming piles of shit on the front page of The Sun and The Mail. I’m going to guess that’s not how it is, and this is being positioned as more of a bold gamble to ‘slash’ taxes and put more money in ‘your’ pocket.
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I’ve just walked past a shop. It’s actually worse than I expected. The Mail is hailing “at last a true Tory budget” and The Sun funds some space to celebrate tax cuts alongside its obligatory front page slamming Meghan Markle just for being alive. #bekind
There is absolutely no way that this budget would have received that reaction had it come from a Labour government (not that it would).
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Not so much a budget as an ideological 'spasm'.
I was going to use the term 'wet dream' but that would have been coarse...
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I'm not sure people have truly taken in what the effect of Truss/Kwarteng is going to be.
The markets are now expecting the BoE to increase base rate to 5% next year.
That means you're looking at mortgage rates of 7.5%, even for people with a low loan-to-value percentage - more for folk with a small deposit.
Think about what that means for someone with, say, a £150k mortgage who has been used to paying 2.5% interest.
Their payments next year are going to go up by £7500!
No way on God's earth are tax cuts or growth going to make a dent in that.
This economic policy is absolutely mental. It's going to cause carnage for precisely the Middle Englanders that the Tories need to have onside if they are going to win.
If Truss really is a sleeper agent with a mission to destroy the Tory party, she could hardly do it more effectively.
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Surely you'd just extend the term? Anyone on a fix should be looking to do that now and pay the money in to a savings account of some form.
It will be interesting to see what labour propose. It appears they wouldn't reverse the cuts to 19% and national insurance but the 45% cut they would. Not sure that their policies are that much radically different from what I've heard so far.
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Surely you'd just extend the term? Anyone on a fix should be looking to do that now and pay the money in to a savings account of some form.
It will be interesting to see what labour propose. It appears they wouldn't reverse the cuts to 19% and national insurance but the 45% cut they would. Not sure that their policies are that much radically different from what I've heard so far.
Do the maths.
For a £150k repayment mortgage, extending the term from 25 years to FORTY years saves you less than £2k per year. So in this example, someone still has to find another £5k per year. And they are shelling out for another 15 years.
There's no avoiding it. There's an absolute disaster coming down the line.
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In the above case the lender might only be paying for an extra 15 years if the mortgage rate didn’t come down of course.
And potentially they could pay off chunks of outstanding loan as their personal finances improved over the years.
On the dark side of this though, I heard today from a family member who works at the Halifax that they have opened an office in Yorkshire (Sheffield I think) that will employ 300 people specifically to deal with repossessions.
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Why wasn't fuel duty cut or even mentioned?
Cutting fuel duty would have led to everyone benefitting and not just the wealthy.
Not those that done buy fuel. We need to reduce fuel use not increase it.
So reduce in duty has no effect on say goods distribution by road or bus users prices stay stable or possibly reduce You don't have to be the buyer of fuel to benefit there are indirect benefits
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Incredulous!
Government borrowing has necessarily increased massively firstly due to Covid now due to the energy crisis. Who is ultimately going to pay for this?
Not the richest with the broadest shoulders.
Removing the 45% tax band alone means someone on a £1m salary will save £42,500 per year in income tax - a saving 50% higher than the gross average salary in the UK.
Simply despicable.
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Tories gonna Tory.
Although in fairness, they've rarely ever been as explicit as this in waging Class War on behalf of the rich.
Yesterday's announcement had the feel of a payback clause being actioned by all the wealthy folk who have bankrolled the Tories in general and Truss in particular. The breathtaking audacity of it is quite admirable in some sense.
One thing's sure. Any working class person now has zero excuse for telling themselves the Tories are on their side. Although in sure a few will try to find one.
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Rarely agree with Billy but this post is as accurate as it gets.
I hate Labour with a passion but there really is no option left but to put aside pride and principle and to lend my vote Labour to get these evil parasites out of office.
This mini budget proves beyond doubt that the Tories think ordinary people are stupid. Trying to create the illusion that it is people's best interests in the long run to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. Payback time in the next election for these shitehouses.
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Rarely agree with Billy but this post is as accurate as it gets.
I hate Labour with a passion but there really is no option left but to put aside pride and principle and to lend my vote Labour to get these evil parasites out of office.
This mini budget proves beyond doubt that the Tories think ordinary people are stupid. Trying to create the illusion that it is people's best interests in the long run to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. Payback time in the next election for these shitehouses.
Never have I voted Labour.... but they get my vote next time.
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Just imagine the reaction if a Labour Chancellor had presented a new fiscal plan, with zero attempt to have an independent costing, and the markets had reacted by the Pound dropping 4% and the interest rate that Govt pays on debt increasing by the most in a single day for 31 years.
Just close your eyes and try to imagine it.
As I was saying.
https://twitter.com/GavinBarwell/status/1573196526729498624?s=20&t=Tgpn70vm-C76Nzfqsv_VPQ
This is a dyed in the wool Tory by the way. May's Chief of Staff.
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For the record, I entirely agree that we desperately need stronger growth. Been saying that ever since the Austerity disaster. But the way to do that is by Govt investment in high quality education, training and capital infrastructure. Not giving away billions to people who already have plenty.
I agree actually listening to the statement this morning.
45% tax cut - utterly unnecessary.
20% cut to 19% - fine with that to a point though I still preferred increasing the tax thresholds.
NI Cut - should never have been done in the first place, fix the tax policy as a whole.
Stamp duty changes - can see the logic given interest rates, seems sensible enough.
CT hold - massive for businesses actually and that's one that can stimulate growth so seems sensible.
Enterprise zones - make good sense on paper, be interesting to see the details and if it helps unlock the potential of areas like ours.
Overall the handouts are too generic, they don't necessarily stimulate growth all that well and I doubt they'll work personally. All I see some of it doing is enabling those who are better off to cream more money from the higher interest rates. I'm not at all sure it's targeted enough. Rishi Sunak was wrong to want to put bigger tax increases in, Liz Truss has took it too far.
I'd still like to get your thoughts on the enterprise zones pud, if I remember correctly the previous ones launched in 1984 and were closed by the gov't in 2012.
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
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The Labour conference might give us an idea of what they propose to do to improve the situation.
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
You think Labour would deal with this situation by giving massive tax cuts to the wealthiest, releasing the cap on bankers'bonuses, allowing fracking while banning wind farms and solar farms, cutting income tax and keeping VATat 20% etc, etc?
I suggest that's some seriously impressive Bothsides Koolaid you're drinking there.
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
You think Labour would deal with this situation by giving massive tax cuts to the wealthiest, releasing the cap on bankers'bonuses, allowing fracking while banning wind farms and solar farms, cutting income tax and keeping VATat 20% etc, etc?
I suggest that's some seriously impressive Bothsides Koolaid you're drinking there.
Labour wouldn’t have prevented brexit, lockdowns or the Ukraine invasion. They were also complaining about the Tories high taxes a matter of months ago.
I think VAT should have been cut to get people spending. But don’t really see the harm in anything else. Let’s see how it plays out in a non-partisan way. This way of growing the economy is tried and tested.
No need for intrusive countryside wind farms if we’re going nuclear. Wind farms getting expanded at sea instead where nobody lives, surely you and our wildlife would prefer that?
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Growing the economy from where we currently are by giving tax cuts massively skewed to the wealthy is absolutely not tried and tested.
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Hedge fund managers had dinner earlier in the week with the Chancellor, days later the same managers made a killing shorting the pound when the Chancellor tanked the pound, insider trading?
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For the record, I entirely agree that we desperately need stronger growth. Been saying that ever since the Austerity disaster. But the way to do that is by Govt investment in high quality education, training and capital infrastructure. Not giving away billions to people who already have plenty.
I agree actually listening to the statement this morning.
45% tax cut - utterly unnecessary.
20% cut to 19% - fine with that to a point though I still preferred increasing the tax thresholds.
NI Cut - should never have been done in the first place, fix the tax policy as a whole.
Stamp duty changes - can see the logic given interest rates, seems sensible enough.
CT hold - massive for businesses actually and that's one that can stimulate growth so seems sensible.
Enterprise zones - make good sense on paper, be interesting to see the details and if it helps unlock the potential of areas like ours.
Overall the handouts are too generic, they don't necessarily stimulate growth all that well and I doubt they'll work personally. All I see some of it doing is enabling those who are better off to cream more money from the higher interest rates. I'm not at all sure it's targeted enough. Rishi Sunak was wrong to want to put bigger tax increases in, Liz Truss has took it too far.
I'd still like to get your thoughts on the enterprise zones pud, if I remember correctly the previous ones launched in 1984 and were closed by the gov't in 2012.
Not much I can say about 1984 I wasn't born!
As you say, you've ran a business where are you going to invest. Somewhere with business rates relief, lower tax contributions and tax breaks or somewhere without? It clearly helps if used in the right way to get places like south Yorkshire moving forwards.
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Was it on here I read that Tory is derived from the Irish for bandit or robber?
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
You think Labour would deal with this situation by giving massive tax cuts to the wealthiest, releasing the cap on bankers'bonuses, allowing fracking while banning wind farms and solar farms, cutting income tax and keeping VATat 20% etc, etc?
I suggest that's some seriously impressive Bothsides Koolaid you're drinking there.
Labour wouldn’t have prevented brexit, lockdowns or the Ukraine invasion. They were also complaining about the Tories high taxes a matter of months ago.
I think VAT should have been cut to get people spending. But don’t really see the harm in anything else. Let’s see how it plays out in a non-partisan way. This way of growing the economy is tried and tested.
No need for intrusive countryside wind farms if we’re going nuclear. Wind farms getting expanded at sea instead where nobody lives, surely you and our wildlife would prefer that?
Labour wouldn't have been panicked into having a referendum by UKIP eating into their voting base in the first place.
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I'll put your quote here pud so it doesn't get overly large
''Enterprise zones - make good sense on paper, be interesting to see the details and if it helps unlock the potential of areas like ours''
Can you expand on what you've read then, it would be good to get your input.
A few things to think about are for me is what would the main focus be, financials-manufacturing or both? would a SEZ draw wealth creation to it but away from other areas that badly need it? would those working inside the zone have there employment rights protected?
At a glance it could be seen as the government admitting failure of brexit and the global britain fantasy.
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Growing the economy from where we currently are by giving tax cuts massively skewed to the wealthy is absolutely not tried and tested.
Way more so than Corbyn’s politics, did you vote for him?
The model itself is tried and tested. We can’t predict the future, so let’s see. I’m sure even if it’s positive you’ll have your own negative slant on it anyway.
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Enterprise zones do precisely zero to grow the economy. There's tonnes of evidence on that. What they do is to move economic activity from one place to another.
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
You think Labour would deal with this situation by giving massive tax cuts to the wealthiest, releasing the cap on bankers'bonuses, allowing fracking while banning wind farms and solar farms, cutting income tax and keeping VATat 20% etc, etc?
I suggest that's some seriously impressive Bothsides Koolaid you're drinking there.
Labour wouldn’t have prevented brexit, lockdowns or the Ukraine invasion. They were also complaining about the Tories high taxes a matter of months ago.
I think VAT should have been cut to get people spending. But don’t really see the harm in anything else. Let’s see how it plays out in a non-partisan way. This way of growing the economy is tried and tested.
No need for intrusive countryside wind farms if we’re going nuclear. Wind farms getting expanded at sea instead where nobody lives, surely you and our wildlife would prefer that?
Labour wouldn't have been panicked into having a referendum by UKIP eating into their voting base in the first place.
Their own fault for the Corbyn years. Unpatriotic at heart and a threat to National security.
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Growing the economy from where we currently are by giving tax cuts massively skewed to the wealthy is absolutely not tried and tested.
Way more so than Corbyn’s politics, did you vote for him?
The model itself is tried and tested. We can’t predict the future, so let’s see. I’m sure even if it’s positive you’ll have your own negative slant on it anyway.
What you are saying is: "Some countries have low taxes on the wealthy and have strong economies. Therefore cutting taxes on the wealthy makes your economy stronger."
You see the flaw in the logic.
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I'm changing my prediction for 2024(if Putin hasn't nuked us all by then). I said IMO that it would be a hung parliament, but now I'm pretty certain that the Tories will get slaughtered.
This attack on the working class and lower middle classes isn't sustainable, and that so called mini-budget was a suicide note.
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The rich got richer as a result of the lockdowns and the rich got even richer as a result of the cost of lockdown crisis.
As for the rest of us:
You will own nothing but you will be happy. :byebye:
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And they'll get even richer when BoE increase interest rate, win win if you are rich enough
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
Are labour proposing to reverse the tax cut or halt the energy freeze? With the exception of the 45% tax cut there isn't that much labour wouldn't do. They've largely done exactly what everyone has been crying out for them to do.
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Growing the economy from where we currently are by giving tax cuts massively skewed to the wealthy is absolutely not tried and tested.
Way more so than Corbyn’s politics, did you vote for him?
The model itself is tried and tested. We can’t predict the future, so let’s see. I’m sure even if it’s positive you’ll have your own negative slant on it anyway.
Go on then, which country - not a theoretical 'model' - has tried and tested it with any success? I'd love to know.
Not having low taxes, but funding lost tax revenue with government borrowing.
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I remember when the conservatives used to wrongly blame Labour for the ‘08 recession when they wouldn’t have done anything different to avoid it themselves.
The same is now happening in reverse.
You think Labour would deal with this situation by giving massive tax cuts to the wealthiest, releasing the cap on bankers'bonuses, allowing fracking while banning wind farms and solar farms, cutting income tax and keeping VATat 20% etc, etc?
I suggest that's some seriously impressive Bothsides Koolaid you're drinking there.
Labour wouldn’t have prevented brexit, lockdowns or the Ukraine invasion. They were also complaining about the Tories high taxes a matter of months ago.
I think VAT should have been cut to get people spending. But don’t really see the harm in anything else. Let’s see how it plays out in a non-partisan way. This way of growing the economy is tried and tested.
No need for intrusive countryside wind farms if we’re going nuclear. Wind farms getting expanded at sea instead where nobody lives, surely you and our wildlife would prefer that?
Labour wouldn't have been panicked into having a referendum by UKIP eating into their voting base in the first place.
Their own fault for the Corbyn years. Unpatriotic at heart and a threat to National security.
Brexit was voted for before Corbyn so cut out the word salad replies, eh?
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
Are labour proposing to reverse the tax cut or halt the energy freeze? With the exception of the 45% tax cut there isn't that much labour wouldn't do. They've largely done exactly what everyone has been crying out for them to do.
Well there's the energy companies windfall tax for a start.
The point is that absolutely zero of the £165bn energy cap and tax giveaways that the Tories have announced is funded. Every single penny is coming from borrowing. And they have deliberately suppressed the OBR report on the economic effects of these decisions.
Ask yourself. If you were a foreign investor, would YOU buy the £ in those circumstances?
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
Are labour proposing to reverse the tax cut or halt the energy freeze? With the exception of the 45% tax cut there isn't that much labour wouldn't do. They've largely done exactly what everyone has been crying out for them to do.
It's a bit weird then that the pound is imitating a brick and stocks have fallen, not the usual response to good news.
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By the way. You're going to hear "the £ is falling because the $ is so strong" a LOT from the Tories this week.
Facts:
Since Truss came to power three weeks ago, the £ is down 9% against the $. (It was 11% earlier today.)
The € is down 3% Vs the $ over the same period.
So yes the $ is strong.
And no, that's not nearly half the reason for the collapse of the £.
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
Are labour proposing to reverse the tax cut or halt the energy freeze? With the exception of the 45% tax cut there isn't that much labour wouldn't do. They've largely done exactly what everyone has been crying out for them to do.
Well there's the energy companies windfall tax for a start.
The point is that absolutely zero of the £165bn energy cap and tax giveaways that the Tories have announced is funded. Every single penny is coming from borrowing. And they have deliberately suppressed the OBR report on the economic effects of these decisions.
Ask yourself. If you were a foreign investor, would YOU buy the £ in those circumstances?
I don't disagree on that point actually it is the other thing that you'd think would be an obvious move given the other things announced. Let's be clear though both parties are promoting massive borrowing.
From what I've heard so far from labour their approach is more sensible but not as different as some of you make out, the differences are quite minor.
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Labour has been proposing borrowing to invest in infrastructure for a decade. That was and is a sensible approach, in fact THE only sensible approach if you want long term growth.
For what it's worth, I think Starmer has made a big mistake in agreeing with the 19% income tax rate. It's simply not sustainable in the current circumstances. He should have come out clearly saying that. Big, big mistake.
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Meanwhile, if you think the drop in the £ is bad...
The real carnage is going on in the gilts market. That is the interest rate that the finance markets want, if they are to lend money to the Govt.
At the turn of the year it was 1%. As of right now it is 4.5%.
That means the Govt needs to find an extra £70bn/year to pay interest on its debts.
One third of that entire increases has occurred since Kwarteng started speaking on Friday.
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Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
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IFS report
https://ifs.org.uk/articles/mini-budget-response
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This government won't see out 12 months if they don't reverse these insane measures.
It's time for a general election.
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And the Commons is in recess while the economy crashes!
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This government won't see out 12 months if they don't reverse these insane measures.
It's time for a general election.
This is what I struggle with, what should they reverse exactly?
Many posters complained that the government didn't intervene, they've now done that and now everyone complains again.
I'm not seeing much of an alternative from anywhere frankly. Note, I haven't got one either.
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This government won't see out 12 months if they don't reverse these insane measures.
It's time for a general election.
This is what I struggle with, what should they reverse exactly?
Many posters complained that the government didn't intervene, they've now done that and now everyone complains again.
I'm not seeing much of an alternative from anywhere frankly. Note, I haven't got one either.
I haven't seen anywhere people complaining that the government weren't intervening to bin off the top rate of tax, cut corporation tax etc? People were calling for intervention on energy prices but their response has, if I'm being generous, split opinion by lumbering with taxpayer with the bill of paying for it.
I'd say the alternative right now is to not do the things that they are saying they are going to do and then work from there...
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This government won't see out 12 months if they don't reverse these insane measures.
It's time for a general election.
This is what I struggle with, what should they reverse exactly?
Many posters complained that the government didn't intervene, they've now done that and now everyone complains again.
I'm not seeing much of an alternative from anywhere frankly. Note, I haven't got one either.
What do you think of the IFS report pud?
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This government won't see out 12 months if they don't reverse these insane measures.
It's time for a general election.
This is what I struggle with, what should they reverse exactly?
Many posters complained that the government didn't intervene, they've now done that and now everyone complains again.
I'm not seeing much of an alternative from anywhere frankly. Note, I haven't got one either.
Four big mistakes:
1) Reversing the NI increase
2) Getting rid of the 45% income tax top rate.
3) Reducing the base rate of Income Tax to 19%.
4) Refusing to bring in a windfall tax.
Those collectively mean that the entire package is based on massive borrowing at precisely the time when the markets don't want to lend to us. Which is why the £ has tanked and gilt rates have rocketted.
And yes, Labour has made a big mistake in supporting 1 and 3 above.
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I don't agree with bst, the tax burden was too high and still is in some ways. But your points on 2 and 4 are valid to many people.
Interesting to see how labour propose to enact their spending plans and cut debt.
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https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1574368172328849414?s=21&t=CnU_X9NuQijop5A_nrARNw
Lost for words isn’t he?
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Quite astonishing isn't it how Eton breeds these generations that combine utter incompetence with arrogant self-confidence.
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Quite astonishing isn't it how Eton breeds these generations that combine utter incompetence with arrogant self-confidence.
If Eton were a state school they would be in special measures with the amount of idiots they churn out
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More astonishing is the fact that Middle and Working Class folk (Plus folk on benefits), keep either voting them in, or enabling them by not voting at all.
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This from the BBC.
More from the Conservatives, and this time from MP Danny Kruger, who says the pound’s position against the dollar “is serious” but he thinks markets will respond when they realise “the long-term value” of the measures laid out last Friday.
So
1) We are in a short term big f**k-off hole.
2) It'll be alright when the markets realise that they, and pretty much every macroeconomics experts in the world are wrong, and Truss, Kwarteng & a group of three crank economists have found the magic key to starting growth by pouring money into the pockets of the wealthiest. Even though it has never, ever worked before.
This is actually frightening. We've got no-one with any adult responsibility at the head of Government. And the backwoodsmen Tory MPs are going to let them do what they want.
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Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
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This is just black Wednesday but with a more servile, snivelling right wing press, isn't it?
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Remember all that talk about how Labour were only ahead in the polls because Johnson was toxic, and the new leader would see a big bounce?
https://mobile.twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1574396208885415938
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Halifax and Virgin temporarily withdraw all new mortgage products for new customers.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
That's what happens when, after you oust a leader who you think will lose you the next election, you elect someone with no idea what their policies are going to be. And then, as soon as they get the job, tell you they don't care how unpopular they (and therefore the rest of the party) get before they then assault the economy based on the exact opposite of received economic wisdom.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
That's what happens when, after you oust a leader who you think will lose you the next election, you elect someone with no idea what their policies are going to be. And then, as soon as they get the job, tell you they don't care how unpopular they (and therefore the rest of the party) get before they then assault the economy based on the exact opposite of received economic wisdom.
I did point out during the leadership campaign that 2/3rds of the MP's didn't support Truss and this could lead to trouble with them. Even I didn't think it would be this early tho.
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More astonishing is the fact that Middle and Working Class folk (Plus folk on benefits), keep either voting them in, or enabling them by not voting at all.
To be fair though mugnapper, that is possibly because not enough people think that Labour are a viable alternative.
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Budget's going well...
Once again, just imagine if a Labour Chancellor had given away £50bn in tax cuts to the poorest and the £ had tanked.
Are labour proposing to reverse the tax cut or halt the energy freeze? With the exception of the 45% tax cut there isn't that much labour wouldn't do. They've largely done exactly what everyone has been crying out for them to do.
Well there's the energy companies windfall tax for a start.
The point is that absolutely zero of the £165bn energy cap and tax giveaways that the Tories have announced is funded. Every single penny is coming from borrowing. And they have deliberately suppressed the OBR report on the economic effects of these decisions.
Ask yourself. If you were a foreign investor, would YOU buy the £ in those circumstances?
I agree that there should have been a windfall tax but TBH it would be a drop in the ocean when it boils down to it.
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I heartily recommend listening to tonight's PM programme on R4 if you want to understand how utterly f**king clueless the Tories' economic policy is.
Here's the fundamentals. The basics of economics.
If you want the economy to grow, you reduce taxes, increase Govt spending and/or reduce interest rates.
If you want to reduce inflation, you increase taxes, reduce Govt spending and/or increase interest rates.
It's REALLY simple. Pro-growth policies are the precise mirror image opposite of anti-inflation policies.
Right.
Lord Frost has been on PM tonight. He's the genius who negotiated the Brexit deal. He said this and I'm quoting verbatim.
"Liz Truss has announced a different approach to get us back to growth. And that means a number of things have got to hapoen. Rates have got to go up to get inflation under control. And we are going to have to have lower taxes and fiscal support to get people through this period."
It's genuinely frightening that someone so totally clueless should be anywhere close to power. It's the EXACT equivalent of someone saying that the best way to get somewhere quicker in your car is to hammer the accelerator, but to make sure you don't break the speed limit, press the brake hard at the same time.
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There's Labour's election campaign poster sorted.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewEconomyBrief/status/1574455121244819463/photo/1
That graph in the background. It shows how much money Kwarteng's tax changes will give to each group in society. From the poorest 5% on the left to the richest 5% on the right.
Can we please, finally, put this idle "Huh, they're all the same" b*llocks to bed?
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Apparently Truss has been nicknamed 'Daggers' among the city traders. From Dagenham (two stops past Barking).
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Yougov 23rd-25th September
Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%
Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378
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looks as though the only thing that could possibly save this government is a sudden end to the war.
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looks as though the only thing that could possibly save this government is a sudden end to the war.
That or find an excuse to join in and declare war on Russia! :silly:
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Here we go.
https://mobile.twitter.com/christophe_read/status/1574512397162876929
Step 1: Use the inflation crisis to pour money towards the rich, paid for by borrowing.
Step 2: Use the borrowing crisis as a reason not to fund public services to deal with inflation.
Still. They're all the same, eh?
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PS.
Surely, SURELY they aren't going to make the same mistake AGAIN and cut capital investment like Osborne did a decade ago.
Capital investment is absolutely crucial if we are going to get long term growth going again. Surely even this lot couldn't be so stupid as not to see that?
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I'm sure there is a rational explanation for all this but obviously KK wants to see how bad the economy the markets and the pound will get before he rides to the recue in a couple of months with some soothing words.
My thinking is he has confused the UK economy with crashing a satellite into an asteroid and it will all come good provided the asteroid is not redirected to hit the UK.
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Yougov 23rd-25th September
Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%
Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378
A result like that would give Labour 182 seat majority
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Apparently Truss has been nicknamed 'Daggers' among the city traders. From Dagenham (two stops past Barking).
I love that Wilts .... made me smile (roversdude and Raithy please note)
I would have laughed probably but it's message is serious ... she is a horrible choice made by the Tory Membership which Electorally they may regret
I will wait for 10.01 pm on the next Election Day for the Exit Poll to see if it did
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Your ‘Super Soaraway Sun’ the only National newspaper not to lead with the financial mess their preferred candidate has created.
They choose to lead with a story about some random bloke, who left his British bird for a Ukrainian bird. Now he’s dumped the Ukrainian bird, but the British bird won’t have him back.
They get the big stories, don’t they?
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Here's a bizarre thing.
Kwarteng is talking absolute voodoo economics and if the markets think he's going to be in charge long term, the £ will be absolutely cratered.
But the polls are strongly showing that he'll not be in charge by the end of 2024, and a grown up like Reeves will take over.
That puts a limit on how bad the forecasts from the financial markets will be.
So, weirdly, the best chance for Truss is if Labour stay well ahead in the polls for now and the market panic eases.
Politics eh? Bloody hell.
PS. Obviously the best chance for Truss is to have her own Govt have an economic policy that's not absolutely batshit, but that might be asking a bit too much.
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Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
Please let this be true
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
Please let this be true
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/liz-truss-conservative-party-leader-at-next-general-election/bet-history/no
Click "All History". With William Hill the odds on here not lasting till the Election have shortened from 3/1 to 7/4 since Friday.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
Please let this be true
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/liz-truss-conservative-party-leader-at-next-general-election/bet-history/no
Click "All History". With William Hill the odds on here not lasting till the Election have shortened from 3/1 to 7/4 since Friday.
The way she is going, Not lasting until Christmas, is well worth a punt.
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F*ck me, is Boris coming back?
You wouldn't put it past them.
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F*ck me, is Boris coming back?
You wouldn't put it past them.
Sunak repeatedly said borrowing to fund tax cuts was dangerous. I expect even he is suprised how rapidly this is unfolding.
Maybe not a return to Boris but if they could find a way to usher out Truss, perhaps they could stabilise things with Sunak. Probably impossible.
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F*ck me, is Boris coming back?
You wouldn't put it past them.
Sunak repeatedly said borrowing to fund tax cuts was dangerous. I expect even he is suprised how rapidly this is unfolding.
Maybe not a return to Boris but if they could find a way to usher out Truss, perhaps they could stabilise things with Sunak. Probably impossible.
Golden rule of economics, that is.
We've had 15 years of being told that Labour's economic policies were somewhere between incompetent and Marxist and folk have swallowed it.
Not once. Not ONCE in all that time did Labour EVER propose borrowing to fund tax cuts. They have only ever proposed choosing to borrow in order to find capital infrastructure.
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F*ck me, is Boris coming back?
You wouldn't put it past them.
Sunak repeatedly said borrowing to fund tax cuts was dangerous. I expect even he is suprised how rapidly this is unfolding.
Maybe not a return to Boris but if they could find a way to usher out Truss, perhaps they could stabilise things with Sunak. Probably impossible.
Its as if Truss is deliberately trying to piss Sunak off by doing pretty much everything he didnt want to.
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When Truss goes, only one name on the ballot paper. The Tories are running scared about losing their seat at next GE they need someobe who they think will keep them in a job, so who you gonna turn to?
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I was amazed when she got the job.
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When Truss goes, only one name on the ballot paper. The Tories are running scared about losing their seat at next GE they need someobe who they think will keep them in a job, so who you gonna turn to?
If they do, they'll become unelectable for another two reasons:
1. You can't knife two leaders in the back in quick succession without it affecting the electability of the party as a whole regardless of who they elect leader next time.
2. It'll underline the paucity of talent at the top of the party. That was down to Boris chucking of a lot of decent people out of the party because they disagreed with him about Brexit. They haven't got them back, leading to the undignified sight of someone as useless as Nadine Dorries in the Cabinet through lack of choice. The only person I can think of that might - but only might - overcome this is Ben Wallace. (Possibly why he kept his powder dry last time). Sunak's too tainted, he needs a couple of years at least to let the memories fade.
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Glyn, from someone as you know leans centre right. They already ARE unelectable and have been for some time. The more I hear out of this labour conference the more likely I am to vote Labour, hope a lot of it does actually make the manifesto
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I did say another two reasons! :lol:
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Glyn, from someone as you know leans centre right. They already ARE unelectable and have been for some time. The more I hear out of this labour conference the more likely I am to vote Labour, hope a lot of it does actually make the manifesto
This, labour have largely plonked theirselves in a position the Tories were in, they've clearly moved to the right which I imagine is frustrating for a lot on the left.
Labour will be fairly limited by their own fiscal rules if they seriously want to avoid positions like we are in now. Very difficult for them aswell and they would be well worth making it clear they won't come in and offer huge spending increases etc.
It's like their energy company announcement. It's fairly sensible and doesn't replace private companies but it will take a long time and money to implement.
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Were in when pud?
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Glyn, from someone as you know leans centre right. They already ARE unelectable and have been for some time. The more I hear out of this labour conference the more likely I am to vote Labour, hope a lot of it does actually make the manifesto
This, labour have largely plonked theirselves in a position the Tories were in, they've clearly moved to the right which I imagine is frustrating for a lot on the left.
Labour will be fairly limited by their own fiscal rules if they seriously want to avoid positions like we are in now. Very difficult for them aswell and they would be well worth making it clear they won't come in and offer huge spending increases etc.
It's like their energy company announcement. It's fairly sensible and doesn't replace private companies but it will take a long time and money to implement.
I don't really think they need to do that BFYP given how this lot have stripped the place, and then still managed trash it (despite having cut it to the bone through austerity). Just need to hold a steady course and let these disasters continue being a disaster.
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When Truss goes, only one name on the ballot paper. The Tories are running scared about losing their seat at next GE they need someobe who they think will keep them in a job, so who you gonna turn to?
Ghostbusters?
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The Chancellor is asking UK bankers not to bet against the pound!
No idea so he’ll just ask them nicely ffs!
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The same bankers just given freedom to get unlimited bonuses, they'll eat him alive regardless, there's no sentiment in business.
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The same bankers just given freedom to get unlimited bonuses, they'll eat him alive regardless, there's no sentiment in business.
But he’ll be asking them nicely lol!
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Some fumbled to know who she and her squeeze was at a recent event, I guess everyone knows who she is by now ...........
''IMF urges UK to ‘re-evaluate’ tax cuts in attack on fiscal plan''
''London | The International Monetary Fund openly criticised Britain’s new economic strategy on Tuesday (Wednesday AEST), following another slide in bond markets that forced the Bank of England to promise a “significant” response to stabilise the economy.
Pressure piled on Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng to reassess his policy, which unleashed turmoil in financial markets, as leading economists, investors and executives said rock-bottom investor confidence would recover only if the plan were scrapped''
https://www.afr.com/world/europe/imf-urges-uk-to-re-evaluate-tax-cuts-in-attack-on-fiscal-plan-20220928-p5blj0
rabbit in the headlights
I was going to write vote tory, but is this really tory, really, it's more like online gambling, russian roulette, hoping the war will end and save the economy.
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Just read that Sir Graham Brady says there is a little known 1922 Conmittee rule that says the new leader can't be challenged for 12 months. God help us
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Just read that Sir Graham Brady says there is a little known 1922 Conmittee rule that says the new leader can't be challenged for 12 months. God help us
Backbench revolt against the mini-budget in Parliament it is then! ;)
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Just read that Sir Graham Brady says there is a little known 1922 Conmittee rule that says the new leader can't be challenged for 12 months. God help us
Backbench revolt against the mini-budget in Parliament it is then! ;)
I seem to remember Brady saying that if Johnson had survived his 'No Confidence' vote, the 1922 Committee would change the rules to enable another vote, on receipt of the required number of letters, within the 12 months.
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Glyn, from someone as you know leans centre right. They already ARE unelectable and have been for some time. The more I hear out of this labour conference the more likely I am to vote Labour, hope a lot of it does actually make the manifesto
This, labour have largely plonked theirselves in a position the Tories were in, they've clearly moved to the right which I imagine is frustrating for a lot on the left.
Labour will be fairly limited by their own fiscal rules if they seriously want to avoid positions like we are in now. Very difficult for them aswell and they would be well worth making it clear they won't come in and offer huge spending increases etc.
It's like their energy company announcement. It's fairly sensible and doesn't replace private companies but it will take a long time and money to implement.
Labour has had eminently sensible fiscal rules as its policy for 6 years. They were designed by a team of the UK's most eminent macroeconomists under Corbyn. They are absolutely bang on what any party should sign up to.
1) In general, over a business cycle (from one recession to another) income and expenditure (taxes and spending) should balance for current spending (pensions, defence, education, NHS, local councils, etc)
2) That rule can be and should be suspended if and when emergencies arise, requiring short term Govt spending (such as support to the economy in a very bad recession, or COVID lockdown funding).
3) Govt is allowed to borrow to fund capital investment, on the grounds that sensible investment spending pays for itself through both improved productivity, and the multiplier effect.
Put together, that is the most sensible macroeconomic framework any UK party has ever proposed. Odd that people assumed that because Corbyn was a lefty, he couldn't be trusted on the economy.
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Just read that Sir Graham Brady says there is a little known 1922 Conmittee rule that says the new leader can't be challenged for 12 months. God help us
A commons no confidence vote it is then, see how many of these Tory bas**rds have got any balls, job or Country?
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Dan Hannan.
f**k me sideways, how batshit is this?
https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/28/daniel-hannan-no-the-pound-isnt-crashing-because-of-a-trifling-batch-of-tax-cuts/
Can anyone point me to a prominent Brexit advocate who is even on nodding terms with rationality?
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Ok.
One "It's not our fault, it's Starmer" post could be dismissed as a bell end having a panicked whine.
Two, and it's starting to look like a Tory party HQ message.
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1575048712921157633?s=20&t=_EquT3zj9d3cX3Hd8_YGJw
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Rob_Merrick/status/1575144324769120261
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Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
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My guess would be "but they didn't"
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Where IS Truss by the way?
-
There is something messed up - although on the button given that the elite and v wealthy rule in this "democracy" - when there is an economic crisis and inflation starts bubbling that people scraping their way month to month to pay for a small/average mortgage get shafted as part of a policy that is to disuade people from spending.
If you're going to disuade people from spending then put up VAT on non essentials. That waythe gov makes much needed income and erm.... dissuades spending. Putting up interest rates is simply a policy choice for making rich richer. When will people get this?
-
Where IS Truss by the way?
Up the bloody tree.
-
Where IS Truss by the way?
Staying quiet during the other party's conference?
-
Where IS Truss by the way?
Police say they’re becoming increasingly concerned over the whereabouts of a Mrs L. Truss from Norfolk. Last seen driving entire country off a cliff.
https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1575093012400865282
-
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Has there ever been a more disastrous, self-inflicted Govt economic policy?
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1575128310740389889?s=20&t=RkJJDLCDC2QLXumFmVMGOQ
Three weeks into TrussLand and she's just come within hours of destroying the pension fund sector.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
6/4 and shortening.
Get this.
Starmer is 4/6 on to be PM after the next election.
But he's 17/10 against being the next PM.
Here's what is do if I were Starmer.
Table a vote of no confidence in Truss in the House.
Publicly announce that if Tory MPs join with him in bringing down Truss, Labour will support a Sunak-led Govt to get us out of this disaster.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
6/4 and shortening.
Get this.
Starmer is 4/6 on to be PM after the next election.
But he's 17/10 against being the next PM.
Here's what is do if I were Starmer.
Table a vote of no confidence in Truss in the House.
Publicly announce that if Tory MPs join with him in bringing down Truss, Labour will support a Sunak-led Govt to get us out of this disaster.
I think if Diane Abbott was leader, even she would get in !
-
Here we go.
https://mobile.twitter.com/christophe_read/status/1574512397162876929
Step 1: Use the inflation crisis to pour money towards the rich, paid for by borrowing.
Step 2: Use the borrowing crisis as a reason not to fund public services to deal with inflation.
Still. They're all the same, eh?
This from the BBC
"The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Philp, will write to government departments in the coming days about and identifying spending efficiencies and living within the spending review, a Whitehall source has confirmed."
Here it comes. Money poured into the poclet's of the wealthiest 1%. Resulting in spending cuts on schools and hospitals.
Where have all our Tory fans vanished to? Nothing at all to say?
-
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
-
I've just left my Dad's, he's 74 , born and bred in pit village , tin bath as a kid worked every day of his life , nothing extravagant . Bought own council house , tidy car as that's his hobby . Mums just said it's cool today but holding off putting heating on to keep bills down , followed by my Dad saying " well he not helped today , that Starmer stood up saying what he'd do different rather then working together" . He still thinks Boris was hard done toand he did a good job" under circumstances". It's like a kind of subservience, they are in charge so they must be right.
-
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
I know, I’m one
-
[quote author ;)=Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
[/quote]
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
-
Probably the same reason your can remortgage to reroof the house , but not to go on the piss. Somethings are worth investing in
-
Here we go.
https://mobile.twitter.com/christophe_read/status/1574512397162876929
Step 1: Use the inflation crisis to pour money towards the rich, paid for by borrowing.
Step 2: Use the borrowing crisis as a reason not to fund public services to deal with inflation.
Still. They're all the same, eh?
This from the BBC
"The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Philp, will write to government departments in the coming days about and identifying spending efficiencies and living within the spending review, a Whitehall source has confirmed."
Here it comes. Money poured into the poclet's of the wealthiest 1%. Resulting in spending cuts on schools and hospitals.
Where have all our Tory fans vanished to? Nothing at all to say?
He was interviewed on Peston and confirmed this. Also refused to confirm if the pension and benefit rate rises Sunak promised would go ahead.
-
OK everyone, relax it's all been sorted ...... this little gem:
''One No 10 source said there would be no request for a recall, while a Tory MP added: “Everyone needs to stop shitting the bed and just calm down. And hopefully at conference, if not before, Kwasi will set out in a much more considered way how he’ll address some of the issues with the markets.”
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1575203918573080576
For those old enough to remember, this has got Black Wednesday written all over it.
1) The Govt chooses to take a very difficult to defend policy position that damages the economy.
2) The markets smell blood and bet that the Govt can't stick to that policy.
3) The Govt insists that everything is fine and it will see the policy through come hell or high water.
4) The markets squeeze the Govt's balls. Hard.
5) Govt gives in and reverses policy.
Who's your money on?
-
''No10 and Treasury ministers reject any notion tonight that there's a crisis. Meetings are continuing on a range of subjects in Number 10 - but there's no big focus on the market turmoil. Ministers in cabinet rubbish the link between Friday's statement and today's turmoil....''
Other unconnected links are .........
The call up in Russia and the massive queues at the borders
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-georgia-moscow-government-and-politics-482165571df054a4d58d0afddafc782b
The connection between the rising concentrations of Co2 in the atmosphere and burning fossil fuels.
The abnormal death rate and covid ........
-
[quote author ;)=Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
[/quote]
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
-
I suppose one plus from this Financial Disaster is that Bankers will be earning whopping bonuses from it and also paying much less tax on those bonuses.
See, it’s not all bad news.
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
-
Truss will get a sullen response at the Tory Conference this week-end, but some will think it too early to rock the boat.
When the energy rationing kicks in during a winter cold spell, she is toast.
Some think bringing back Bozo is some sort of solution, God help us all!
-
We have n’t got a written constitution, but by god we need one, there needs to be a mechanism of removing and out of control PM!
-
Where IS Truss by the way?
Up the bloody tree.
That line is in a song and it's taken me an age to pin it down. Blancmange (Who I saw at the Outlook) and 'Living on the Ceiling'.
-
Whoever it was that thought it was a good idea to do the rounds on local radio today has dropped a massive bollock, she was crucified by local journalists
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
Apologies. I saw exactly that line ooze out of loads of right wing COVID denial sites yesterday, repeated by people who should know better. In fact people who probably DO know better but chose to feed folk that bullshit line.
Here's why there's no comparison. Oh and before we start, the tax cuts are £45bn, not £2bn.
1) Why wasn't Govt spending to support people and companies in lockdown a problem?
You have to understand how Govts borrow. They don't pop down to see the bank manager and ask for a loan. The Treasury offers billions of pounds of Govt bonds, promising to pay interest. I'm effect, the financial markets, dominated by big pension funds decide what interest rate they want in return for buying those bonds.
In 2020, the world economy was grinding to a halt. There were very few safe places for money to go. No big commercial investment opportunities were safe. So the financial markets were falling over themselves to lend money to Govts all round the world at effectively zero interest rate.
2) COVID related Govt spending, though large, had a purpose and was always going to be time limited. The markets could see that.
3) Onto Kwarteng. Where to start? He's made several decisions which have freaked the market.
4) Before that, look at the global context. We are now asking to borrow money in a world awash with rapidly growing economies that have bounced back into growth post-COVID. We now have to persuade bond buyers to buy ours. That means they need to have confidence in the direction our Govt finances are going.
5) And there's the rub. Kwarteng announced £45bn of tax cuts on top of £150bn of energy cap funding and he didn't say a single word about how that would be funded. The tax cuts are key here because they would constitute an ongoing cost, year after year. That's called a current account deficit and you cannot run a country over the long term by borrowing to fill a current account deficit.
6) He claimed, against 99.9% of economic advisers' opinions, that the tax cuts would boost long term growth and thus fill the whole in the accounts.
7) He refused to publish a report by the OBR into what they thought the effect of the tax cuts would be.
8) And the Govt is saying that their policy is growth, while the BoE is following its legally enforced mandate to bring down inflation. Never happened before that the Treasury and the BoE are pulling in directly opposite directions.
9) Put all that together and the financial markets said, "we think you are taking a massive risk spadger. We're not even sure there are any grown ups in charge anymore. We'll lend to you, but only if you give us 5% interest to cover the risk." (It was <1% this time last year.
10) That bond rate rise, if it sticks, adds £100bn to our annual debt interest bill. That massively depressed our future economic outlook. That puts downward pressure in the Pound, which means more inflation and higher interest rates to control it.
++++++++++
That's why this is nothing like the COVID spending. I saw someone sum it up far better yesterday. They said we are suffering because the markets are demanding a Moron Premium when they lend to us. Because what Truss and Kwarteng have done is THE most moronic economic policy decision, certainly in 50 years, possibly in the last century since Churchill brought back the Gold Standard.
-
Whoever it was that thought it was a good idea to do the rounds on local radio today has dropped a massive bollock, she was crucified by local journalists
Questions to which the answer is "Yes".
No. 1. "Will you, PM, guarantee that people's pensions are safe?"
Go on Lizzy! Knock it out the park! You go girl!
Errr...
https://twitter.com/tony4rochdale/status/1575414100347191299
-
.......... er the BoE is doing a very good job er .................
Is this preparing the ground to blame the BoE if it all goes pear shaped?
-
Whoever it was that thought it was a good idea to do the rounds on local radio today has dropped a massive bollock, she was crucified by local journalists
So embarrassing. She'll be gone within 6 months.
-
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1575380228712665088
-
Yougov 23rd-25th September
Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%
Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378
That record didn't last long...
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1575522731101245440
Still looking for that polling bounce for the Tories once they ditch Johnson.
-
Yougov 23rd-25th September
Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%
Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378
That record didn't last long...
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1575522731101245440
Still looking for that polling bounce for the Tories once they ditch Johnson.
The first post under that shows the Tory’s winning just 3 seats in that scenario
-
Highest lead for any party in any opinion poll since 1998 as far as I can see.
-
Highest lead for any party in any opinion poll since 1998 as far as I can see.
SNP would be the main opposition
-
Highest lead for any party in any opinion poll since 1998 as far as I can see.
All from doing absolutely nothing but watch the Tories implode for the last 2 and a half years.
Starmer could have simply gone on holiday for all that time, reappeared and still be miles ahead by default.
Truss is an absolute airhead that isn't fit to be a politician let alone run a country.
-
[quote author ;)=Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
[/quote]
What are you saying?
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1575203918573080576
For those old enough to remember, this has got Black Wednesday written all over it.
1) The Govt chooses to take a very difficult to defend policy position that damages the economy.
2) The markets smell blood and bet that the Govt can't stick to that policy.
3) The Govt insists that everything is fine and it will see the policy through come hell or high water.
4) The markets squeeze the Govt's balls. Hard.
5) Govt gives in and reverses policy.
Who's your money on?
With apologies to Thatcher who said "the lady is not for turning" I think Truss will be saddled with a similar epithet " the lady is not for NOT turning"
One coming soon.
Maybe she will sack Kwarteng making him Lord KK at a later date .... Though she will need to be quick given the Tory MPs are smelling blood (her blood) already
-
There's the problem.
Thatcher as the indomitable non-turner is etched om the Tory mythology.
Except it's not true.
She insisted in 1981 that there'd be no u-turn on her economic policy. But she quietly ditched it 18 months after, safe in the glow of the Falklands victory.
If Truss doesn't understand that then she deserves the t**tting that history is going to give her.
-
[quote author ;)=Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
[/quote]
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
-
This really is end game stuff from the Tories. That parliament hasn't been recalled is a disgrace.
-
Yougov 23rd-25th September
Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%
Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378
That record didn't last long...
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1575522731101245440
Still looking for that polling bounce for the Tories once they ditch Johnson.
The first post under that shows the Tory’s winning just 3 seats in that scenario
All in Scotland!!
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
It's not the tax cuts per se (or the pos £200 billion energy support package) its that they haven't shown how they are going to pay back their massive borrowing if they are going to cut taxes?
Funnily enough the IMF or the world financial markets dont believe that just chanting the word 'growth' will automatically generate more money. And that's why the £ went down, which sent borrowing costs up, which almost broke pension funds who hold a lot of the debt.
-
[quote author ;)=Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
[/quote]
Hound didn't vote Tory at the last GE. He just likes being argumentative (and he's not alone in that). But if people can't remember who he said he voted for - I a'int telling!
Btw if you read his posts he very rarely says anything pro-Tory. He just criticises Labour and Labour supporters a lot. Dont mistake the two.
-
I suppose one plus from this Financial Disaster is that Bankers will be earning whopping bonuses from it and also paying much less tax on those bonuses.
See, it’s not all bad news.
while i'm not saying i agree with scrapping the caps im not sure your right, if they got a bonus say 500k and now they got a bonus of 1 million they would pay considerably more tax than they were before
-
To be a fly on the wall in the meeting between the OBR, truss and kk
OBR: welcome
truss & kk: no comment
-
I suppose one plus from this Financial Disaster is that Bankers will be earning whopping bonuses from it and also paying much less tax on those bonuses.
See, it’s not all bad news.
while i'm not saying i agree with scrapping the caps im not sure your right, if they got a bonus say 500k and now they got a bonus of 1 million they would pay considerably more tax than they were before
I wouldn't call £175K each 'considerably more'. It's hardly going to make a dent in the borrowing the government is going to have to make. And it's a big 'IF' to start with.
-
[quote author ;) =Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
Hound didn't vote Tory at the last GE. He just likes being argumentative (and he's not alone in that). But if people can't remember who he said he voted for - I a'int telling!
Btw if you read his posts he very rarely says anything pro-Tory. He just criticises Labour and Labour supporters a lot. Dont mistake the two.
[/quote]
Not mistaking anything, Wilts. I know he insists that he isn't a Tory voter. Your point that he criticises Labour supporters a lot is only part of the story. He comments only critically of Labour the party and you would have to go a long way to find any criticism of the Tories in anything he says - in spite of the shit show of the last twelve years.
Hounds reply to Filo was basically calling him a liar, I simply commented in kind about his claims on his own voting history.
-
[quote author ;) =Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
Hound didn't vote Tory at the last GE. He just likes being argumentative (and he's not alone in that). But if people can't remember who he said he voted for - I a'int telling!
Btw if you read his posts he very rarely says anything pro-Tory. He just criticises Labour and Labour supporters a lot. Dont mistake the two.
Not mistaking anything, Wilts. I know he insists that he isn't a Tory voter. Your point that he criticises Labour supporters a lot is only part of the story. He comments only critically of Labour the party and you would have to go a long way to find any criticism of the Tories in anything he says - in spite of the shit show of the last twelve years.
Hounds reply to Filo was basically calling him a liar, I simply commented in kind about his claims on his own voting history.
[/quote]
Kinell pies, you are saying I called Filo a liar.
Even Filo wouldn’t think that.
Did you fail to see the joke in my response to him.
Filos response of “I know, I’m one”, was to the “pension funds don’t just apply to retired people” that I wrote.
The joke “no way did you vote Tory” was a joke answer to my question who are the Tory voting pensioners, got any names” question.
You really do need to get a sense of humour.
Yes, I am critical of Labour and some of their supporters and I won’t apologise for that.
I have made some critical comments about the government.
By the way, I still think you are obsessed with finding fault with many of my posts.
-
I suppose one plus from this Financial Disaster is that Bankers will be earning whopping bonuses from it and also paying much less tax on those bonuses.
See, it’s not all bad news.
while i'm not saying i agree with scrapping the caps im not sure your right, if they got a bonus say 500k and now they got a bonus of 1 million they would pay considerably more tax than they were before
⁷
I think you've missed the irony in my post.
-
[quote author ;) =Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
Hound didn't vote Tory at the last GE. He just likes being argumentative (and he's not alone in that). But if people can't remember who he said he voted for - I a'int telling!
Btw if you read his posts he very rarely says anything pro-Tory. He just criticises Labour and Labour supporters a lot. Dont mistake the two.
Not mistaking anything, Wilts. I know he insists that he isn't a Tory voter. Your point that he criticises Labour supporters a lot is only part of the story. He comments only critically of Labour the party and you would have to go a long way to find any criticism of the Tories in anything he says - in spite of the shit show of the last twelve years.
Hounds reply to Filo was basically calling him a liar, I simply commented in kind about his claims on his own voting history.
[/quote]
As usual Hound misread what I posted, is remark was pensions not only apply to retired people, of which I am one of them in both ways, I have a pension and I’m not retired
-
Back to Truss and KamiKwasi, it seems they rejected the offer from the OBR to provide an analysis of their barmy budget:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1575565395599261703
Now, after the meltdown that anyone with a brain could see would happen, they are going to do what they should have done in the first place.
You and me won't get to see it until November 23, so deferred gratification for all!
-
Kamikwase :lol:
Good one.
Kwasi is the epitome of a bloke educated to within an inch of his life but who has zero common sense.
These people infest politics.
-
Back to Truss and KamiKwasi, it seems they rejected the offer from the OBR to provide an analysis of their barmy budget:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1575565395599261703
Now, after the meltdown that anyone with a brain could see would happen, they are going to do what they should have done in the first place.
You and me won't get to see it until November 23, so deferred gratification for all!
Problem with this is, if the OBR was truly independent, they would just publish their report. As it is, the PM having a private meeting with the head of the OBR (a meeting of which I assume we'll see no minutes) leaves onlookers questioning just how independent it is.
Labour has an open goal here. To announce that they will raise the OBR's independence to the level of the BoE Monetary Policy Committee, and ask it to produce regular (every month?) assessments of the state of the economy which it, the OBR, will publish without any interference from Government.
There's a simple underpinning to this. Labour's economic and fiscal plans are based on solid, dependadable macroeconomic principles. The OBR, working to those principles, would broadly agree with a Labour Chancellor. The Tories under Truss and Kwarteng are using voodoo economics,supported by almost no-one outside a tiny group of crank economists. The OBR, free and independent, would call them out on that. Which is precisely why Kwarteng suppressed their report last week. Because it would have flatly contradicted what he said to Parliament last week.
-
[quote author ;) =Filo link=topic=285964.msg1189470#msg1189470 date=1664392785]
Without the BoE intervention today pension funds would have collapsed, I wonder what our Tory voting pensioners on here have got to say about that?
Pension funds don’t just apply to retired people Filo.
Who are the Tory voting pensioners by the way, got any names?
Quote by Filo.
I know, I’m one
No way did you vote Tory. :lol: :lol:
In exactly the same way that you didn't vote Tory.
What are you saying?
If reading it once isn't enough just keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there, clever fellow that you are.
Hound didn't vote Tory at the last GE. He just likes being argumentative (and he's not alone in that). But if people can't remember who he said he voted for - I a'int telling!
Btw if you read his posts he very rarely says anything pro-Tory. He just criticises Labour and Labour supporters a lot. Dont mistake the two.
Not mistaking anything, Wilts. I know he insists that he isn't a Tory voter. Your point that he criticises Labour supporters a lot is only part of the story. He comments only critically of Labour the party and you would have to go a long way to find any criticism of the Tories in anything he says - in spite of the shit show of the last twelve years.
Hounds reply to Filo was basically calling him a liar, I simply commented in kind about his claims on his own voting history.
As usual Hound misread what I posted, is remark was pensions not only apply to retired people, of which I am one of them in both ways, I have a pension and I’m not retired
[/quote]
Reply by hound to Filo:
I didn’t misread it Filo.
See my response to pies.
I made a joke to lighten the mood but you obviously missed that or chose not to acknowledge it.
Either way, I’m not really bothered.
I did also ask you to name the Tory voting posters on here but you didn’t give any names.
I’m glad though that you didn’t think I called you a liar.
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
6/4 and shortening.
Get this.
Starmer is 4/6 on to be PM after the next election.
But he's 17/10 against being the next PM.
Here's what is do if I were Starmer.
Table a vote of no confidence in Truss in the House.
Publicly announce that if Tory MPs join with him in bringing down Truss, Labour will support a Sunak-led Govt to get us out of this disaster.
11/10 now to be hoyed out before the election.
-
PS.
Surely, SURELY they aren't going to make the same mistake AGAIN and cut capital investment like Osborne did a decade ago.
Capital investment is absolutely crucial if we are going to get long term growth going again. Surely even this lot couldn't be so stupid as not to see that?
Err...sweet f**king Lord up above.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardALJones/status/1575730600111378432
-
BST,
I agree that the OBR should report on a periodic and statutory basis.
The point about the OBR assessment is that once KamiKwasi has it, failing to publish it will increase jitters in the markets.
The report is there to give a financial overview of the political choices made by the Trusslers.
Absence of available evidence will only amplify misgivings among investors.
Given that it is to become available on Nov 23, there is no purpose in delay....all you are doing is to creating uncertainty.
All of which points to the fact that we are not dealing with rational people here.
If you make political choices based on beliefs, and without evidential support, it suggests that it is a cult running the UK.
-
PS.
Surely, SURELY they aren't going to make the same mistake AGAIN and cut capital investment like Osborne did a decade ago.
Capital investment is absolutely crucial if we are going to get long term growth going again. Surely even this lot couldn't be so stupid as not to see that?
Err...sweet f**king Lord up above.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardALJones/status/1575730600111378432
Christ, they're acting like sulky teenagers who are being deliberately contrary just to piss off their parents.
-
PS.
Surely, SURELY they aren't going to make the same mistake AGAIN and cut capital investment like Osborne did a decade ago.
Capital investment is absolutely crucial if we are going to get long term growth going again. Surely even this lot couldn't be so stupid as not to see that?
Err...sweet f**king Lord up above.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardALJones/status/1575730600111378432
Christ, they're acting like sulky teenagers who are being deliberately contrary just to piss off their parents.
She still acts like the anti monarchy Lib Dem student when her views didn’t matter and she was irrelevent, she’s a nut job
-
Albie
I think you're being too harsh and too easy on them.
I honestly don't think Kwarteng witheld the OBR report because he's irrational. I think it's far worse than that. He believes the utter dogshit economics spouted by Minford, Lyons and Jessup that the tax cuts will spur growth.
Of course, the OBR doesn't believe that. And will have said so in their report. Kwarteng wants to suppress the report because he genuinely believes the OBR is wrong and he and his crank advisers are right. That's perfectly rational behaviour if you genuinely believe something so catastrophically wrong.
-
But its not rational if you want to calm unease on the markets, which is a fundamental role for the Chancellor.
I think Minford and the rest are just a fig leaf, providing a reference backstop, but irrelevant to the political decision making.
The instability in the markets is a goldmine to those who make money from gaming the system.
Short sellers are quids in on the uncertainty gifted by the Trusslers.
Like KamiKwasi's old mate, Crispin Odey;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/kwasi-kwarteng-crispin-odey-government-bonds-profit/
Coincidence?
-
I think they genuinely believe or at least believed this was a little local difficulty and they could brazen their way through it. That they'd look all TINA strong and far-sighted when their approach worked.
Yes it's absolute batshit, but not in their minds.
Anyway. So much for that post-Johnson bounce, eh?
-
I have to feel for the decent Tory backbenchers. They got rid of Boris because they were fed up of lying to protect a liar, which is understandable. But now they find themselves having to try to support and explain the inexplicable.
-
Truss policies are slash and burn.
-
We know there's at least 90,000 civil servants for the chop, what else, those at the base of the pyramid haven't got anything more to give.
-
The movement in the polls is just astonishing.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_%28LOESS%29.svg/640px-Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_%28LOESS%29.svg.png)
I'm struggling to think of any previous occasion when the poll lead has changed by 20% in a week across a range of polls.
And here's the thing when you still down into the numbers. It's mainly 2019 Tory voters now saying they will vote Labour. Plus, on a smaller level, people who previously supported the Greens and LDs switching to Labour, presumably because they've realised that we have to get this shower of shite out of power.
It feels like there's been an awakening of people who have wavered but stuck with the Tories, finally seeing the light and seeing them for what they are. It feels like one of those once in half a generation moments where the baton passes. Like the Winter of Discontent, Black Wednesday or the GFC, and people decide that a basic change is needed.
Might not last of course. Truss may surprise us all. But I wouldn't bet on it.
-
The stonewalling in the face of a financial crisis which sent shivers down international markets too was quite something, especially as it was a completely avoidable own goal.
-
In power, but without power nor authority.
-
the Times: levelling up secretary, simon clarke
''Britain has lived in a ''fools paradise'' for too long and must reduce public spending to pay for the ₤45 billion worth of tax cuts''
Too many have been ready to confer power onto a bunch of selfish ***** that would rather line their pockets and in turn feed those willing to support them at the ballot box.
The risk to social cohesion is massive.
-
''Liz Truss is preparing to push ahead with an unlimited number of “investment zones” despite a row within the government that it could hand an uncosted blank cheque of tax breaks to businesses.
The Treasury is believed to have raised concerns about “carpet bombing the entire country” with investment zones, with the government about to announce an appeal for areas to apply within days – as the Conservatives prepare for their annual conference in Birmingham''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/30/liz-truss-to-push-ahead-with-unlimited-investment-zones-despite-costs-row
maniacs on steroids
-
the Times: levelling up secretary, simon clarke
''Britain has lived in a ''fools paradise'' for too long and must reduce public spending to pay for the ₤45 billion worth of tax cuts''
Too many have been ready to confer power onto a bunch of selfish ***** that would rather line their pockets and in turn feed those willing to support them at the ballot box.
The risk to social cohesion is massive.
Energy Company excess profits forecast to be £160 BILLION.
I wonder why Mr Clarke can’t see an opportunity to pay for his tax cuts in one fell swoop?
(To put £160 billion pounds in context, as it’s a number most of us will find difficult to contextualise, NASA put a vehicle with a picture taking drone (imagine the roaming charges on that) on Mars for $4.3 billion (approx, well, £4.3 billion now).
-
Good read here if you want to understand where Truss got her ideas from - and why they wont work.
Why Liz Truss hasn't understood a word I wrote - by her favourite political author:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/-liz-truss-hasn-t-understood-a-word-i-wrote-says-pm-s-favourite-author
-
You have to remember that the Spectator is a Tory magazine and numbers among it's former editors one Alexander de Pfeffle Johnson. (Or Boris as the Russian gentlemen holding incriminating video of him at one of Lebedev's parties, call him).
So there may be a little bias, but it's surely a prime example of the Conservative Party, ripping itself apart.
-
Part of me is sort of pleased that they're going mask off. It'll put these far right libertarian ideas about low taxes to bed forever. The other part is horrified by the price we'll all pay for it, though.
-
MM
It won't though. Because it's become an article of faith on the Right. The whole Laffer Curve obsession. It plays to the intellectually stunted t**ts who have read Ayn Rand and thought they'd uncovered some basic truth about the evil of government and the sanctity of individual liberty.
When it goes tits up this time, there'll be a reason. There's always a reason. And the next generation will be as zealous as this one.
It's up to grown ups to beat down that argument every generation.
When
-
This is disgraceful by The Mirror. They should hang their heads in shame.
https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072?s=20&t=SbhvvhgndvjHyxX09hyfCA
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
Apologies. I saw exactly that line ooze out of loads of right wing COVID denial sites yesterday, repeated by people who should know better. In fact people who probably DO know better but chose to feed folk that bullshit line.
Here's why there's no comparison. Oh and before we start, the tax cuts are £45bn, not £2bn.
1) Why wasn't Govt spending to support people and companies in lockdown a problem?
You have to understand how Govts borrow. They don't pop down to see the bank manager and ask for a loan. The Treasury offers billions of pounds of Govt bonds, promising to pay interest. I'm effect, the financial markets, dominated by big pension funds decide what interest rate they want in return for buying those bonds.
In 2020, the world economy was grinding to a halt. There were very few safe places for money to go. No big commercial investment opportunities were safe. So the financial markets were falling over themselves to lend money to Govts all round the world at effectively zero interest rate.
2) COVID related Govt spending, though large, had a purpose and was always going to be time limited. The markets could see that.
3) Onto Kwarteng. Where to start? He's made several decisions which have freaked the market.
4) Before that, look at the global context. We are now asking to borrow money in a world awash with rapidly growing economies that have bounced back into growth post-COVID. We now have to persuade bond buyers to buy ours. That means they need to have confidence in the direction our Govt finances are going.
5) And there's the rub. Kwarteng announced £45bn of tax cuts on top of £150bn of energy cap funding and he didn't say a single word about how that would be funded. The tax cuts are key here because they would constitute an ongoing cost, year after year. That's called a current account deficit and you cannot run a country over the long term by borrowing to fill a current account deficit.
6) He claimed, against 99.9% of economic advisers' opinions, that the tax cuts would boost long term growth and thus fill the whole in the accounts.
7) He refused to publish a report by the OBR into what they thought the effect of the tax cuts would be.
8) And the Govt is saying that their policy is growth, while the BoE is following its legally enforced mandate to bring down inflation. Never happened before that the Treasury and the BoE are pulling in directly opposite directions.
9) Put all that together and the financial markets said, "we think you are taking a massive risk spadger. We're not even sure there are any grown ups in charge anymore. We'll lend to you, but only if you give us 5% interest to cover the risk." (It was <1% this time last year.
10) That bond rate rise, if it sticks, adds £100bn to our annual debt interest bill. That massively depressed our future economic outlook. That puts downward pressure in the Pound, which means more inflation and higher interest rates to control it.
++++++++++
That's why this is nothing like the COVID spending. I saw someone sum it up far better yesterday. They said we are suffering because the markets are demanding a Moron Premium when they lend to us. Because what Truss and Kwarteng have done is THE most moronic economic policy decision, certainly in 50 years, possibly in the last century since Churchill brought back the Gold Standard.
Fair enough, good points.
I have libertarian (this isn’t “far-right” as suggested above) leanings but as you have said, politics is about being adaptable and knowing when the time is right to have more of the policies you would ideally like.
I just believe in a smaller state as it has just grown and grown. After covid, people expect it to do everything.
Has the pound slightly recovered? What would this suggest?
-
This is disgraceful by The Mirror. They should hang their heads in shame.
https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072?s=20&t=SbhvvhgndvjHyxX09hyfCA
Did you hear Huq’s words on Kwarteng?
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
Apologies. I saw exactly that line ooze out of loads of right wing COVID denial sites yesterday, repeated by people who should know better. In fact people who probably DO know better but chose to feed folk that bullshit line.
Here's why there's no comparison. Oh and before we start, the tax cuts are £45bn, not £2bn.
1) Why wasn't Govt spending to support people and companies in lockdown a problem?
You have to understand how Govts borrow. They don't pop down to see the bank manager and ask for a loan. The Treasury offers billions of pounds of Govt bonds, promising to pay interest. I'm effect, the financial markets, dominated by big pension funds decide what interest rate they want in return for buying those bonds.
In 2020, the world economy was grinding to a halt. There were very few safe places for money to go. No big commercial investment opportunities were safe. So the financial markets were falling over themselves to lend money to Govts all round the world at effectively zero interest rate.
2) COVID related Govt spending, though large, had a purpose and was always going to be time limited. The markets could see that.
3) Onto Kwarteng. Where to start? He's made several decisions which have freaked the market.
4) Before that, look at the global context. We are now asking to borrow money in a world awash with rapidly growing economies that have bounced back into growth post-COVID. We now have to persuade bond buyers to buy ours. That means they need to have confidence in the direction our Govt finances are going.
5) And there's the rub. Kwarteng announced £45bn of tax cuts on top of £150bn of energy cap funding and he didn't say a single word about how that would be funded. The tax cuts are key here because they would constitute an ongoing cost, year after year. That's called a current account deficit and you cannot run a country over the long term by borrowing to fill a current account deficit.
6) He claimed, against 99.9% of economic advisers' opinions, that the tax cuts would boost long term growth and thus fill the whole in the accounts.
7) He refused to publish a report by the OBR into what they thought the effect of the tax cuts would be.
8) And the Govt is saying that their policy is growth, while the BoE is following its legally enforced mandate to bring down inflation. Never happened before that the Treasury and the BoE are pulling in directly opposite directions.
9) Put all that together and the financial markets said, "we think you are taking a massive risk spadger. We're not even sure there are any grown ups in charge anymore. We'll lend to you, but only if you give us 5% interest to cover the risk." (It was <1% this time last year.
10) That bond rate rise, if it sticks, adds £100bn to our annual debt interest bill. That massively depressed our future economic outlook. That puts downward pressure in the Pound, which means more inflation and higher interest rates to control it.
++++++++++
That's why this is nothing like the COVID spending. I saw someone sum it up far better yesterday. They said we are suffering because the markets are demanding a Moron Premium when they lend to us. Because what Truss and Kwarteng have done is THE most moronic economic policy decision, certainly in 50 years, possibly in the last century since Churchill brought back the Gold Standard.
Fair enough, good points.
I have libertarian (this isn’t “far-right” as suggested above) leanings but as you have said, politics is about being adaptable and knowing when the time is right to have more of the policies you would ideally like.
I just believe in a smaller state as it has just grown and grown. After covid, people expect it to do everything.
Has the pound slightly recovered? What would this suggest?
I'm always fascinated by the using the term " Small State " when spoken today .
Just how small can it actually get given that the size of the state has shrunk massively since 1979 ? .
If the state shrinks anymore then we won't need a government , they'd be nowt to govern .
-
Has the pound recovered somewhat?
-
Has the pound recovered somewhat?
After the £65 billion Bank of England bail out you mean? It's to be hoped so.
-
Has the pound recovered somewhat?
Your making the mistake of saving capitalism for big state .
-
Ladies and gentlemen - your Prime Minister (in tomorrows lefty rag, The Sunday Times)
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1576279051341561858
-
You can pretty much see where this is going to try and save some money .
A large slice of austerity pie is getting served up .
That big state line and we need to shrink it will be the sound bite coming from the Truss team .
Unfortunately for Dizzy Lizzy there's nowt left to cut back since none of Osborne's policies were improved on .
This particular Tory PM is taking this country to a place it's not seen since probably the 1930's if at all .
I'm seriously worried and I don't worry a right lot these days but this women is proper scary .
-
£300 million to be cut from Education budget next year following Kwarteng & Truss' tax changes.
Schoolkids paying for millionaires tax cuts - Big state my a**e!
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-budget-cuts-follow-national-insurance-change/
-
She will deliver, she will deliver, she will deliver.
Even the most devoted tories i know are embarrassed of this stupid attention seeking woman. She wont last long but she’ll have her moment of fame i guess.
-
Every opportunity on Twitter and it's a tweet complete with a photo, talk about attention seeking
-
The first job of an MP is to act in the interest of their constituents & in the national interest. We cannot clap for carers one month & cut tax for millionaires months later.
Julian Smith MP (former Chief Whip under Theresa May and NI Secretary under Johnson) on the idea that Tory MP's who vote against Truss' tax cuts when they come to Parliament will loose the whip.
-
Gove going then, what does that say about what's left
-
The first job of an MP is to act in the interest of their constituents & in the national interest. We cannot clap for carers one month & cut tax for millionaires months later.
Julian Smith MP (former Chief Whip under Theresa May and NI Secretary under Johnson) on the idea that Tory MP's who vote against Truss' tax cuts when they come to Parliament will loose the whip.
They need to be careful, too many and they’ll lose their majority
-
Has the pound recovered somewhat?
Up 2% on the ‘Obotu Bean’.
-
Has the pound recovered somewhat?
Up 2% on the ‘Obotu Bean’.
Parity with a bean, fmd
-
I'm waiting for pud to tell me it all looks good on paper
-
The first job of an MP is to act in the interest of their constituents &amp; in the national interest. We cannot clap for carers one month &amp; cut tax for millionaires months later.
Julian Smith MP (former Chief Whip under Theresa May and NI Secretary under Johnson) on the idea that Tory MP's who vote against Truss' tax cuts when they come to Parliament will loose the whip.
They need to be careful, too many and they’ll lose their majority
35
Gove said on the BBC he wont vote for it, presumably Sunak wont as he said it was economic madness in the summer, so thats 3 already.
-
Watched Truss earlier on Kuenssberg's show.
She truly is the very worst kind of modern politician.
She makes a big deal about how Iron Lady she is and how she's not afraid of making tough, unpopular decisions. Then when quizzed in detail on specific tough decisions (interest rates, Govt spending, benefits uprating) she says those are decisions for the BoE, Treasury, DWP.
She made a big deal on how strong she was on scrapping the 45% tax rate. Then this.
LK: Did you discuss the 45% tax scrapping with the whole Cabinet?
LT: (Pause) (Blink). No. (Pause) (Blink). The Chancellor made that decision.
Cowardice, trying to pull on a cloak of gravitas.
-
The first job of an MP is to act in the interest of their constituents &amp;amp; in the national interest. We cannot clap for carers one month &amp;amp; cut tax for millionaires months later.
Julian Smith MP (former Chief Whip under Theresa May and NI Secretary under Johnson) on the idea that Tory MP's who vote against Truss' tax cuts when they come to Parliament will loose the whip.
They need to be careful, too many and they’ll lose their majority
35
Gove said on the BBC he wont vote for it, presumably Sunak wont as he said it was economic madness in the summer, so thats 3 already.
What they’ll do is what they always do, take the cowards way out and abstain
-
Most astonishing thing of the interview. She's made Gove sound sensible and statesmanlike.
-
Most astonishing thing of the interview. She's made Gove sound sensible and statesmanlike.
The most astonishing thing about that interview personally is I'm actually going to vote Labour as things stand today .
I simply can't take any chances with these fruit cakes because another term under this lot will see the country un saveable .
That pension debacle last week made my mind up , I can't lose a penny if I'm to at least have some kind of life in retirement .
These fruit cakes will take 90% of us down there's no doubt in my mind about that .
A vote for a party who i don't particularly like seems a price worth paying considering the alternative .
Feckin hell , it's that bad .
:suicide: :suicide: :suicide:
-
Meanwhile, since the hedge funders on the far right of the Tory party appear to have made a killing yesterday shorting British debt, might as well try to make a few Bob out of this shit show.
11/4 that Truss is booted out by the Tory party before the next election.
9/4 and shortening this morning.
Get your bets on.
2/1 and shortening.
Tory MPs are briefing that letters of no confidence in Truss have already started to be submitted to the 1922 Committee.
Don't say I didn't tell you.
7/4 and shortening.
6/4 and shortening.
Get this.
Starmer is 4/6 on to be PM after the next election.
But he's 17/10 against being the next PM.
Here's what is do if I were Starmer.
Table a vote of no confidence in Truss in the House.
Publicly announce that if Tory MPs join with him in bringing down Truss, Labour will support a Sunak-led Govt to get us out of this disaster.
11/10 now to be hoyed out before the election.
Now 8/13 on to be gone before the Election.
I'm a political obsessive and I thought I'd seen everything, but this is absolutely unprecedented. The utter collapse of a PM within four weeks of taking power.
-
Tyke. I've been telling you for years. In FPTP, you don't vote for some ideal of what you want. You vote for the party that's most likely to end up producing a least-bad final outcome.
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/nadinebh_/status/1576544518853124096
Tory MP Bim Afolami here having one of those Mitchell & Webb "Are we the baddies?" moments.
-
Tyke. I've been telling you for years. In FPTP, you don't vote for some ideal of what you want. You vote for the party that's most likely to end up producing a least-bad final outcome.
Billy I know full well there's no political utopia .
However there has to be at least a modicum of relatability .
The relatability is I get to 67 with half a chance of retiring on a modest income which I think Labour would just about deliver .
Last week shook me because at 60 years old I can't risk losing anything because I'm far from wealthy .
In fact it's just as well our lass is ten years younger than me and earns at least an average wage because if that wasn't the case I wouldn't be able to have a reasonable retired life .
-
Tory chair Jake Berry has said, “ People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job”.
Are they in the real world?
-
Tory chair Jake Berry has said, “ People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job”.
Are they in the real world?
This is exactly the nonsense they've spouted for 40 years and it falls on deaf ears with the electorate .
What it means is they don't believe it's their responsibility to provide decent jobs that pay .
That's the markets and business responsibility not theirs .
This is their idea of small state and exactly why I get disturbed when people spout nonsense about shrinking the state even more .
-
The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
Apologies. I saw exactly that line ooze out of loads of right wing COVID denial sites yesterday, repeated by people who should know better. In fact people who probably DO know better but chose to feed folk that bullshit line.
Here's why there's no comparison. Oh and before we start, the tax cuts are £45bn, not £2bn.
1) Why wasn't Govt spending to support people and companies in lockdown a problem?
You have to understand how Govts borrow. They don't pop down to see the bank manager and ask for a loan. The Treasury offers billions of pounds of Govt bonds, promising to pay interest. I'm effect, the financial markets, dominated by big pension funds decide what interest rate they want in return for buying those bonds.
In 2020, the world economy was grinding to a halt. There were very few safe places for money to go. No big commercial investment opportunities were safe. So the financial markets were falling over themselves to lend money to Govts all round the world at effectively zero interest rate.
2) COVID related Govt spending, though large, had a purpose and was always going to be time limited. The markets could see that.
3) Onto Kwarteng. Where to start? He's made several decisions which have freaked the market.
4) Before that, look at the global context. We are now asking to borrow money in a world awash with rapidly growing economies that have bounced back into growth post-COVID. We now have to persuade bond buyers to buy ours. That means they need to have confidence in the direction our Govt finances are going.
5) And there's the rub. Kwarteng announced £45bn of tax cuts on top of £150bn of energy cap funding and he didn't say a single word about how that would be funded. The tax cuts are key here because they would constitute an ongoing cost, year after year. That's called a current account deficit and you cannot run a country over the long term by borrowing to fill a current account deficit.
6) He claimed, against 99.9% of economic advisers' opinions, that the tax cuts would boost long term growth and thus fill the whole in the accounts.
7) He refused to publish a report by the OBR into what they thought the effect of the tax cuts would be.
8) And the Govt is saying that their policy is growth, while the BoE is following its legally enforced mandate to bring down inflation. Never happened before that the Treasury and the BoE are pulling in directly opposite directions.
9) Put all that together and the financial markets said, "we think you are taking a massive risk spadger. We're not even sure there are any grown ups in charge anymore. We'll lend to you, but only if you give us 5% interest to cover the risk." (It was <1% this time last year.
10) That bond rate rise, if it sticks, adds £100bn to our annual debt interest bill. That massively depressed our future economic outlook. That puts downward pressure in the Pound, which means more inflation and higher interest rates to control it.
++++++++++
That's why this is nothing like the COVID spending. I saw someone sum it up far better yesterday. They said we are suffering because the markets are demanding a Moron Premium when they lend to us. Because what Truss and Kwarteng have done is THE most moronic economic policy decision, certainly in 50 years, possibly in the last century since Churchill brought back the Gold Standard.
Fair enough, good points.
I have libertarian (this isn’t “far-right” as suggested above) leanings but as you have said, politics is about being adaptable and knowing when the time is right to have more of the policies you would ideally like.
I just believe in a smaller state as it has just grown and grown. After covid, people expect it to do everything.
Has the pound slightly recovered? What would this suggest?
The pound hasn't recovered. It has stabilised at a new lower level. Its worth remembering the BoE is pumping £5 billion A Day into gilts to achieve this. £5 billion a day mind you!
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Most astonishing thing of the interview. She's made Gove sound sensible and statesmanlike.
Another one making the point about borrowing to fund tax cuts, he says its not conservative. Rishi said the same. Ken Clarke says the same. The tories are going down the same hole as Labour with an extreme wing unwilling to listen to moderate voices.
Unfortunately the ideologues are in charge, unwilling to listen. Unable to change course.
Shockingly Simon Clarke essentially said this morning that it's all a big gamble they have to take to stand any chance in the next election. Completely irresponsible.
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Most astonishing thing of the interview. She's made Gove sound sensible and statesmanlike.
Another one making the point about borrowing to fund tax cuts, he says its not conservative. Rishi said the same. Ken Clarke says the same. The tories are going down the same hole as Labour with an extreme wing unwilling to listen to moderate voices.
Unfortunately the ideologues are in charge, unwilling to listen. Unable to change course.
Shockingly Simon Clarke essentially said this morning that it's all a big gamble they have to take to stand any chance in the next election. Completely irresponsible.
If the BOE hadn't stepped in last week the whole country's pension schemes were gone within an hour .
The BOE had to save this country from its own government .
This kind of thing is supposed to happen in Banana Republic's not a country belong to the G7 .
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Most astonishing thing of the interview. She's made Gove sound sensible and statesmanlike.
Another one making the point about borrowing to fund tax cuts, he says its not conservative. Rishi said the same. Ken Clarke says the same. The tories are going down the same hole as Labour with an extreme wing unwilling to listen to moderate voices.
Unfortunately the ideologues are in charge, unwilling to listen. Unable to change course.
Shockingly Simon Clarke essentially said this morning that it's all a big gamble they have to take to stand any chance in the next election. Completely irresponsible.
If the BOE hadn't stepped in last week the whole country's pension schemes were gone within an hour .
The BOE had to save this country from its own government .
This kind of thing is supposed to happen in Banana Republic's not a country belong to the G7 .
Yes it really was a Lehman moment. I don't think it's widely understood just how calamatous it was. Not laying the ground properly doesn't begin to excuse it.
Ken Clarke also said the government was behaving like a South American regime. This isn't the opposition criticising, they are senior tories!
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The impact of the measures proposed by Truss summarised by the Resolution Foundation;
https://twitter.com/resfoundation/status/1575848238422577153/photo/1
So much for levelling up then!
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In the grand scheme of things it's a relatively minor point but when Truss says she failed to lay the groundwork for the budget... She isn't be entirely honest. What they did was sack a senior economic advisor in the civil service because they knew he'd advise against their plans and the squashed the OBR report... Which they are still sitting on. Really it appears they knew what they were up to and are still being opaque about this.
If Tom Scholar had still been in post would this have all happened?... Quite probably but you can bet he'd have had a few things to say about it all.
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In another example of this governments deceit... Step forward Kwasi Kamikwasi Kwarteng.
He has told Andrew Bailey, governor of the Bank of England to stop blaming inflation on energy and gas price rises!
Nobody should know better than Kwasi how gas prices have exploded, since he was the minister who had to bail out CF Fertilisers last September when gas prices rocketed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/22/why-is-the-uk-bailing-out-us-co2-supplier-cf-industries
This was when Putin launched his economic war against Europe. Not last Feb. But it doesn't suit Kwasi to admit the truth because he has another agenda and wants to blame lazy workers and benefits claimants for the problems the UK faces.
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Tory MP who talks sense , they do still exist apparently .
https://youtu.be/Cp8JV-hZZSo
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Tory MP who talks sense , they do still exist apparently .
https://youtu.be/Cp8JV-hZZSo
The significant quote from that interview is "we are a patriotic party. Our first duty is to the country, not to get re-elected"
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This thing about borrowing to fund current expenditure not being acceptable.
It's NOT something that is against Conservative principles. It is against economic principles. ANY Govt that does it, Left, Right, Centre or sky blue pink men from Mars would be wrong and would crash the economy doing it.
I'm not having senior Tories making out that it's somehow a Tory thing to adhere to the basic principles of economics
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This thing about borrowing to fund current expenditure not being acceptable.
It's NOT something that is against Conservative principles. It is against economic principles. ANY Govt that does it, Left, Right, Centre or sky blue pink men from Mars would be wrong and would crash the economy doing it.
I'm not having senior Tories making out that it's somehow a Tory thing to adhere to the basic principles of economics
Yeah, I don't think he was claiming it's exclusively an un-conservative thing. Just that conservatives shouldn't be doing it.
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Still waiting for her to genuinely justify the 45% tax cut and also waiting for anyone who thinks it makes any sense at all.
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Still waiting for her to genuinely justify the 45% tax cut and also waiting for anyone who thinks it makes any sense at all.
She's already passed the buck on that one and laid the responsibility on Kwartengs shoulders.
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Tory MP who talks sense , they do still exist apparently .
https://youtu.be/Cp8JV-hZZSo
The terms "Charles Walker" and "taking sense" have never been used in the same sentence. The man is a Kitson. Go look up some of the unhinged batshittery he spewed out during COVID.
And then go back and listen to what he says in this video. No criticisms of the actual policy of giving obscene tax cuts to the richest, paid for by borrowing. He's just complaining that it's been unpopular and will cost them the election. He's a t**t of the first order.
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They are really trying to engage with public concerns aren't they?
Jake Berry. Cabinet Minister. Said this today.
People struggling with energy bills need to cut their usage or just go out and get a better paid job.
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A warm welcome to the Tory Party from the people of Birmingham .
https://youtu.be/BUpDjRqNUTI
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Still waiting for her to genuinely justify the 45% tax cut and also waiting for anyone who thinks it makes any sense at all.
There will be answers but as you say none that make any fiscal sense, she will still have supporters in and around the party but only those that think more money in their own pockets justifies what she's doing.
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She and Kwarteng and Minford believe in the Laffer Curve myth. That cutting taxes for the rich makes them work harder, earn more and pay more tax. It's absolute b*llocks, always disproved but it's an article of faith among some on the Right.
Osborne claimed it worked when he cut the top rate to 45% in 2011. What actually happened was that city types just deferred salary in 2010/11 so they didn't pay the high rate, then took the money in 11/12 when they paid the lower rate. So in 11/12, there was more top rate tax paid than in 10/11. That was used to "prove" the concept. It's claptrap but it's one of those zombie ideas that keeps coming back because of the Right's philosophy that low taxes are the way forward. And here we are again.
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The thing is BST, you welcome Starmer.
Sad man.
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Starmer and Labour don't do voodoo economics.
I used to think you'd learn one day but if you haven't now, you never will.
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NC quote: "I just believe in a smaller state as it has just grown and grown. After covid, people expect it to do everything''
Can you expand on this and tell me what part of 'the state' you want to reduce and by how much?
What do you expect the cuts you propose will achieve?
thanks in advance.
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U-Turn incoming!
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Confirmation of u turn in 45p tax cut.
It would have been voted down in the commons anyway.
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Confirmation of u turn in 45p tax cut.
It would have been voted down in the commons anyway.
Only the vote wouldn’t have been until the spring
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Now Kamikwasi, about those Banker’s bonuses........
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mismanagement + kamikwasi meets cliff
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Confirmation of u turn in 45p tax cut.
It would have been voted down in the commons anyway.
A day after Truss was on the telly saying how vital it was to their growth plan! Wonder if he has told her?
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I can't see any of the banks rushing put the recently dumped mortgage offers back in the window
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The Original Daily Express headline for today would suggest that this decision was made very late.
‘No more decline. We must stay the course’
‘Our plan is the right one to deliver growth’.
And then a U turn a matter of hours later.
Very embarrassing.
If you want to see it, it’s on the BBC News ‘Today’s Papers’ section.
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Pound up against the dollar already. Let’s hope it stays and hopefully gets stronger. I’m forever the optimist
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You must be if you've supported this shower in any of the past 12 years phil
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Pound up against the dollar already. Let’s hope it stays and hopefully gets stronger. I’m forever the optimist
Aye fingers crossed it does, given our energy supply set up. However the damage is already done. They are going to be absolutely f**ked once the interest rate rises start to bite. Wowzas. f**king clowns masquerading as 'fiscally responsible'.
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And good to see Kamikwasi confirm that budgets won't be adjusted for inflation - so a cut of billions of pounds to public services after 12 years of austerity. Not like we have ambulances queuing outside hospitals; people not able to get an appointment; hundreds of kids going missing each year from overstretched children's services; railways and roads going to shit etc.
This place :facepalm:
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In one word Ed Davey would you sack him if he was your Chancellor?
Immediately!
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Problem is, there's still £43bn of uncosted tax cuts in Kwarteng's budget. That is still economically untenable.
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Yep, all they've done is get rid of the bad headlines, very temporarily.
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Reminder the opposition are not opposed to the vast majority of the £43bn and they've promised to do a lot with the reversal of that £2bn aswell, it appeared to be the answer to most of their policy pledges. The exception would be on corporation tax, something I don't necessarily agree with changing from where it is. There's a lot of work for all parties to do to get something sound proposed to meet their pledges.
My issue with Truss right now is that she's reactive. She's announced policies not as part of a strategy and not at all joined up. The reversal is completely right but it just shows a lack of strategy and care, pure basics!
There was a chap in the running who wanted to balance fiscally, keep higher taxes etc - he lost!
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The opposition's plan also included a windfall tax to help pay for some of it, which goes a long way to settling nerves about how it all is funded. That is the main problem, zero funding plan to date, zero tick from the OBR, zero brains.
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
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Panda I think the odds are you’re right but don’t forget the Labour Party have 2 yrs to mess it up. It will only take the current situation to not get as bad as predicted and the Labour loons to raise their heads again and it might be a close call.
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
Somebody hasn't been watching the Labour Conference.
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
Somebody hasn't been watching the Labour Conference.
For good reason! :lol:
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-keeps-repeating-misleading-claim-on-energy-windfall-tax
I can't see what they've actually proposed as a % etc other than scrapping the capital allowance for the energy companies. Labour appear to have lots of (pretty good) policy ideas but still seem a bit light on how they'd fund them. From the mini budget there isn't that much they've actually said they'll scrap as yet.
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The failure to match inflation in the settlement for public services means a collapse in the NHS and Schools as a result.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kwarteng-cuts-tax-truss-budget-b2191341.html
This is basically a suicide note from the Tories...they have nuked themselves for no other reason than an idealogical obsession by a deranged cult leader.
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-keeps-repeating-misleading-claim-on-energy-windfall-tax
I can't see what they've actually proposed as a % etc other than scrapping the capital allowance for the energy companies. Labour appear to have lots of (pretty good) policy ideas but still seem a bit light on how they'd fund them. From the mini budget there isn't that much they've actually said they'll scrap as yet.
It wouldn't be my focus right now if I was in charge of Labour's operation. Barring something completely out of the blue, we are a couple years away from a GE. I wouldn't be going out on a limb to do an alternative proposal etc. I'd probs just focus on binning off the 45% top rate cut, bankers' bonus and reinstate corp tax rise.
Got another couple years to properly develop a position and continue to let these incompetent clowns f**k themselves
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
Somebody hasn't been watching the Labour Conference.
For good reason! :lol:
So you're talking crap with good reason! :lol:
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-keeps-repeating-misleading-claim-on-energy-windfall-tax
I can't see what they've actually proposed as a % etc other than scrapping the capital allowance for the energy companies. Labour appear to have lots of (pretty good) policy ideas but still seem a bit light on how they'd fund them. From the mini budget there isn't that much they've actually said they'll scrap as yet.
I can't actually see how the govt is going to fund anything yet which is more to the point wouldn't you agree? It caused the turmoil in the markets and forced the BoE to bail them out. It appears most economists agree, those good with numbers that is ....... a policy failure of massive proportions. It does not bode well for anyone, except an opposition trying to overturn a massive majority maybe.
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-keeps-repeating-misleading-claim-on-energy-windfall-tax
I can't see what they've actually proposed as a % etc other than scrapping the capital allowance for the energy companies. Labour appear to have lots of (pretty good) policy ideas but still seem a bit light on how they'd fund them. From the mini budget there isn't that much they've actually said they'll scrap as yet.
I can't actually see how the govt is going to fund anything yet which is more to the point wouldn't you agree? It caused the turmoil in the markets and forced the BoE to bail them out. It appears most economists agree, those good with numbers that is ....... a policy failure of massive proportions. It does not bode well for anyone, except an opposition trying to overturn a massive majority maybe.
That's a different argument though isn't it? It could well be argued that a political game is ongoing. The tories almost setting labour up to fail. If they promise they'll balance the books then they're in for a very hard sell going forwards. For what it's worth I don't think they'll promise that, they cannot deliver it.
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
Somebody hasn't been watching the Labour Conference.
For good reason! :lol:
So you're talking crap with good reason! :lol:
Another brain dead Labour obsessive. Voted Labour all your life have you? Because your old man did and his old man before that? Because you have no individuality? I see.
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Quote Of The Day .
Tory Party member outside the Conference centre in Birmingham this morning when questioned on today's U Turn .
" It was a trap set by Gordon Brown just before he left office "
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Oh they've got brains. Just no common sense or self awareness of how their relentless appalling behaviour and their baffling, selfish decisions will be perceived by the electorate. Which is why Starmer gets in without lifting a finger or having any policies. All 100% self inflicted by supposedly intelligent people.
Somebody hasn't been watching the Labour Conference.
For good reason! :lol:
So you're talking crap with good reason! :lol:
Another brain dead Labour obsessive. Voted Labour all your life have you? Because your old man did and his old man before that? Because you have no individuality? I see.
Wrong on every detail. As usual.
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So having made a statement which made his mates millions with the fall of the pound and the BoE spending billions to bail them out Kamikwazi "listens to thr public" and he now does a u turm and re-instates the 45%.
So cancel Fizz with Liz but let's have Fizz with Kwazz.
How more corrupt can this lot get?
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The IMF didn’t have a problem with the many multiple times more money spent on trying to stop covid and grind the economy to a halt. More so than the £2bn initially lost through tax cuts, why’s that?
Do you really want to know, or is this just another knee jerk anti-lockdown spasm?
My point was to highlight the relatively small ratio of the tax cuts. For example 2bn in relation to 150bn energy bills support package or 32bn on track and trace.
No need for the spiteful tone, I’m just trying to understand things.
Apologies. I saw exactly that line ooze out of loads of right wing COVID denial sites yesterday, repeated by people who should know better. In fact people who probably DO know better but chose to feed folk that bullshit line.
Here's why there's no comparison. Oh and before we start, the tax cuts are £45bn, not £2bn.
1) Why wasn't Govt spending to support people and companies in lockdown a problem?
You have to understand how Govts borrow. They don't pop down to see the bank manager and ask for a loan. The Treasury offers billions of pounds of Govt bonds, promising to pay interest. I'm effect, the financial markets, dominated by big pension funds decide what interest rate they want in return for buying those bonds.
In 2020, the world economy was grinding to a halt. There were very few safe places for money to go. No big commercial investment opportunities were safe. So the financial markets were falling over themselves to lend money to Govts all round the world at effectively zero interest rate.
2) COVID related Govt spending, though large, had a purpose and was always going to be time limited. The markets could see that.
3) Onto Kwarteng. Where to start? He's made several decisions which have freaked the market.
4) Before that, look at the global context. We are now asking to borrow money in a world awash with rapidly growing economies that have bounced back into growth post-COVID. We now have to persuade bond buyers to buy ours. That means they need to have confidence in the direction our Govt finances are going.
5) And there's the rub. Kwarteng announced £45bn of tax cuts on top of £150bn of energy cap funding and he didn't say a single word about how that would be funded. The tax cuts are key here because they would constitute an ongoing cost, year after year. That's called a current account deficit and you cannot run a country over the long term by borrowing to fill a current account deficit.
6) He claimed, against 99.9% of economic advisers' opinions, that the tax cuts would boost long term growth and thus fill the whole in the accounts.
7) He refused to publish a report by the OBR into what they thought the effect of the tax cuts would be.
8) And the Govt is saying that their policy is growth, while the BoE is following its legally enforced mandate to bring down inflation. Never happened before that the Treasury and the BoE are pulling in directly opposite directions.
9) Put all that together and the financial markets said, "we think you are taking a massive risk spadger. We're not even sure there are any grown ups in charge anymore. We'll lend to you, but only if you give us 5% interest to cover the risk." (It was <1% this time last year.
10) That bond rate rise, if it sticks, adds £100bn to our annual debt interest bill. That massively depressed our future economic outlook. That puts downward pressure in the Pound, which means more inflation and higher interest rates to control it.
++++++++++
That's why this is nothing like the COVID spending. I saw someone sum it up far better yesterday. They said we are suffering because the markets are demanding a Moron Premium when they lend to us. Because what Truss and Kwarteng have done is THE most moronic economic policy decision, certainly in 50 years, possibly in the last century since Churchill brought back the Gold Standard.
Fair enough, good points.
I have libertarian (this isn’t “far-right” as suggested above) leanings but as you have said, politics is about being adaptable and knowing when the time is right to have more of the policies you would ideally like.
I just believe in a smaller state as it has just grown and grown. After covid, people expect it to do everything.
Has the pound slightly recovered? What would this suggest?
How much smaller do you want our state to be?
Why do you think that would be a fairer, freer, happier, more successful place?
https://mobile.twitter.com/kevverage/status/1576908522574356480
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How long has the labour windfall tax been a policy? longer than the government's aye?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-keeps-repeating-misleading-claim-on-energy-windfall-tax
I can't see what they've actually proposed as a % etc other than scrapping the capital allowance for the energy companies. Labour appear to have lots of (pretty good) policy ideas but still seem a bit light on how they'd fund them. From the mini budget there isn't that much they've actually said they'll scrap as yet.
I can't actually see how the govt is going to fund anything yet which is more to the point wouldn't you agree? It caused the turmoil in the markets and forced the BoE to bail them out. It appears most economists agree, those good with numbers that is ....... a policy failure of massive proportions. It does not bode well for anyone, except an opposition trying to overturn a massive majority maybe.
That's a different argument though isn't it? It could well be argued that a political game is ongoing. The tories almost setting labour up to fail. If they promise they'll balance the books then they're in for a very hard sell going forwards. For what it's worth I don't think they'll promise that, they cannot deliver it.
So now the mini-minded are not doing this to turn the country around they are more interested in 'setting up the opposition' that sounds a bit far fetched even for you pud, give it your best shot tell us where the money is coming from and how it will work.
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How the hell should I know?
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How the hell should I know?
Exactly, how the hell would anyone know because supply side economics has never worked before, it's why the markets are so nervous, it's why the the truss-kwarsi experiment will fail. It won't be victimless though pud will it?
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It reminds me of that book I read 'how to create a small business' ..............
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Head of the IFS on the radio tonight talking about Kwarteng's idea that we need growth. He was quite barbed, saying "Well of course that's the solution but it's not as if no-one has ever thought of that before!"
Thing is, we KNOW what is needed to grow an economy. We need investment in productive infrastructure. We need investment in training and infrastructure. We KNOW these things. But the Tories pig headedly refuse to face that.
So we've just had a decade of utterly stupid insistance that Austerity was the way forward. Cutting education spending. Cutting capital investment. In pursuit of the ridiculous idea, pushed by the genius Matt Hancock when he was Osborne's adviser of Expansionary Fiscal Contraction. Absolute claptrap that if Govt cuts its spending, somehow industry flourishes.
Now we have a tried and failed idea that if you cut taxes in an inflationary environment, somehow it encourages business to thrive. When we know that what it does is to cause an unsustainable boom followed by a heavy crash, just like it did in the early 70s and late 80s when the Tories tried it.
They are ideologically wedded to the idea that cutting the size of the state makes the economy grow. It doesn't. It's a faith that has been shown to be wrong over and over.
For God's sake, let's get rid of them for twenty years and start repairing the mess they have made.
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Open warfare on Truss at the Tory conference. Never, ever seen anything like this from a serving Cabinet Minister. Baldly ripping the piss out of Truss.
https://mobile.twitter.com/e_casalicchio/status/1577226123960012800
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Christ, I'm way off the pace. Only just seen that Mordaunt has been brazenly contradicting Truss on benefits.
And Truss was asked today if she trusts Kwarteng. And she refused to answer.
What an utter shit shower this lot is. Utterly unfit to be in power.
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Fascinating stuff for students of our Government system.
In our system, if a PM has the broad support of a good majority in the Commons, they can act as though they are President. They can announce policy knowing it will go through. There's little debate and little pressure on Govt to not do what the PM wants.
So Thatcher was like that once she'd settled in. Blair was. Johnson was until he f**ked up too many times.
Cameron shouldn't have been able to be like that because the LDs should have kept him on a lead, but they supported everything he did, so he could have the same approach.
Compare to PMs who don't have control of a big majority. They get flak from all sides and are criticised openly by their own MPs who try to pressure them into policy change. May, Major, Callaghan, Wilson.
That second category is where Truss is already. She holds an 80 seat majority, but half her own MPs dislike her. And she's f**ked up so badly this month, she has squandered any hope of a honeymoon period. It's knives out for her already.
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Working majority down to 71 now
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Here's an indication of how f**ked this Government is.
You'll need to sit down before you read this, because if it doesn't make you feel dizzy, you've not been watching politics this last 20 years.
Ready?
Ian Duncan Smith says the Govt isn't being generous enough on benefits.
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Weird how a catastrophic drop in the polls focuses the mind on issues like poverty.
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Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 Oct.):
Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Other 2% (+1)
Changes +/- 19-20 Sept.
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1577327686430511104
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Liz Truss Red Wall Net Approval Rating (3-4 October):
All Red Wall Voters
Disapprove: 56% (+35)
Approve: 18% (-10)
Net: -38% (-45)
2019 Conservative Voters
Disapprove: 50% (+40)
Approve: 29% (-17)
Net: -21% (-57)
Changes +/- 19-20 September
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1577332776755494915
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At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (3-4 October)
Keir Starmer 47% (+14)
Liz Truss 22% (-18)
Don't Know 31% (+4)
Changes +/- 19-20 September
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1577330257140613120
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https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1577280321955004416?t=vXuA6m-j9ewPIymc6Dafiw&s=19
This interview is quite something. Truss has smashed a load of benzos beforehand and forgotten how mortgages work.
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You've got to have a dream
https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1577272972318048256?t=cbO2CxC2OEekNmP7yTvH_w&s=19
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How a new PM can hit the ground thudding.
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Is this THE most moronic comment in history by a political figure?
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1577342061698859018
f**k me. "Yes the Tories are in trouble but everything changes if there is a nuclear war".
Get the f**kers out into the wilderness and let them spend two decades figuring out what Conservativism means in the modern world. Because they are totally lacking any purpose or philosophy.
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I mean. What f**ked up mind does it take to think about the possibility of nuclear war as a mechanism that might save the Party from its absolute uselessness.
Jesus wept.
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And meanwhile, here's another Tory gem. Looking at raising the state pension age again. Because "people on average are living longer."
Except they are not. One of the most shocking facts is that after a century and a half of life expectancy increasing, it has not increased in the past decade of this shit shower being in charge.
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I wonder if many had poverty on their death certificates .........
''Over 330,000 excess deaths in Great Britain linked to austerity, finds study
Research comes as government signals fresh round of public spending cuts''
''The authors of the study suggest additional deaths between 2012 and 2019 – prior to the Covid pandemic – reflect an increase in people dying prematurely after experiencing reduced income, ill-health, poor nutrition and housing, and social isolation.
Previously improving mortality trends started to change for the worse after austerity policies introduced in 2010 when tens of billions of pounds began to be cut from public spending by the Tory-led coalition government, the study said''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000-excess-deaths-in-great-britain-linked-to-austerity-finds-study
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Commentator on the Tory Party post Johnson:
"The ringmaster has left the circus, and now the lions are eating the clowns."
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It's hard to put into words the rubbish coming out of the truss mouth.
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More than 12 years since the tory government was elected in 2010 this:
truss
''I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back: Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the militant unions, the vested interests, the talking heads, the Brexit deniers, Extinction Rebellion and some of the people we had in the hall earlier.
I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back''
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More than 12 years since the tory government was elected in 2010 this:
truss
''I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back: Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the militant unions, the vested interests, the talking heads, the Brexit deniers, Extinction Rebellion and some of the people we had in the hall earlier.
I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back''
That
Is
A
Disgrace.
Seriously, it is beyond shameless.
The last Labour Govt had a superb record on inflation-free growth for a decade u to the Global Financial Crash. Our GDP per capita grew at 2.2% per year, which meant by 2007, the country was 25% richer than it had been in 1997.
Yes, as everywhere in the world, GDP crashed badly in the GFC in 2008, but by 2009 we were already back to >2% growth and ready to make up the ground. But the entire debate in the 2010 election was about the deficit and the need for Austerity. Labour warned that would throttle growth. We had extensive debates about it in here. But the Tories won. And Truss was a minister throughout the Austerity Decade.
The result? GDP per capita growth in the 2010s dropped to just over 1% per year, even before COVID. We have lost hundreds of billions of pounds of productive output because of an utterly stupid economic policy choice by the Tories.
And this dead eyed non-entity has the f**king gall to blame that on everyone but the Tories.
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Everything about the current Tory party is just exhausting. This identification of enemies constantly is just so draining and I think the benefit of it has ran its course. People are going to look at this anti-growth coalition shite and see right through it. People who have concerns about immigration/want to see us being much stricter on immigration would just be grossed out by the way the Tory Party talk about it too - 'it's my dream to have a flight off to Rwanda by Christmas' or whatever Suella Braverman said. Just gross (not to mention weird). Talk about it in a serious way you f**king clowns.
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Just sat here watching this thread become a parody of itself.
Its like a lefty feeding frenzy, posters jostling amongst themselves to post the most appalling reply.
Gents, everyone's aware that the Tories have managed to unserp themselves and have now started to eat themselves alive.
But seriously its not a good look from supposedly grown men, some need to put the phone down and have a day off.
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Been saying for years. They have absolutely no guiding philosophy. Just a list of people they define themselves as being against
Labour,
The EU
Anyone who isn't a bigoted t**t.
The one and only strategy they have is to play the Culture War. But that won't put food on people's tables. And I do think the majority of the British people will see this for what it is. A pathetic attempt to blame everyone else for the failings of a decade and a half of Conservativism.
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I notice the Anti-Growth Coalition (otherwise known as the world financial markets) have already struck back:
£ 2% down on $ since Truss' speech
https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577667079779532800
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Been saying for years. They have absolutely no guiding philosophy. Just a list of people they define themselves as being against
Labour,
The EU
Anyone who isn't a bigoted t**t.
The one and only strategy they have is to play the Culture War. But that won't put food on people's tables. And I do think the majority of the British people will see this for what it is. A pathetic attempt to blame everyone else for the failings of a decade and a half of Conservativism.
America sneezes and we catch a cold :headbang:
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Opinion polls 2 years out from an election basically mean nothing. It’s just a flavour of the mood at the time. We all know it would only take a bit of a scandal in the Labour Party or for the economy to grow and peoples minds soon change. Some voters are fickle and some when questioned by pollsters just lie. This isn’t saying that LT and the Tories aren’t in trouble at this time I’m just stating what to me is the obvious. It could be something as simple as a different PM next year.
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Phil, it's not the size of the lead. It's how quickly so many people have deserted the Tories. That has happened very, very rarely in polling history. That implies something has snapped that has been waiting to happen.
And here's another thing. The economic hardship ain't started yet. 2023 is going to be grim.
Still, like the Conservative Home idiot says, there might be a nuclear war yet.
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Just sat here watching this thread become a parody of itself.
Its like a lefty feeding frenzy, posters jostling amongst themselves to post the most appalling reply.
Gents, everyone's aware that the Tories have managed to unserp themselves and have now started to eat themselves alive.
But seriously its not a good look from supposedly grown men, some need to put the phone down and have a day off.
Well the thing is Dizzy Lizzy and the rest of her cult have decided to call a class war , However this one is a bit different , usually it's the low paid , people on benefits , the sick and disabled or migrants getting it in the rear .
Dizzy Lizzy has extended it to include 90% of the entire UK population which unless you earn north of £150k plus a year includes yourself .
All our usual bickering , fall outs and disputes can be forgotten about really for the foreseeable although I'm sure myself and Syd will find something :) .
We are all The Enemy Within now although I suspect some may not know it yet , it wont take long for them to catch up mind .
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Been saying for years. They have absolutely no guiding philosophy. Just a list of people they define themselves as being against
Labour,
The EU
Anyone who isn't a bigoted t**t.
The one and only strategy they have is to play the Culture War. But that won't put food on people's tables. And I do think the majority of the British people will see this for what it is. A pathetic attempt to blame everyone else for the failings of a decade and a half of Conservativism.
America sneezes and we catch a cold :headbang:
This is where it ends up Dutch.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1577624146309177344
A senior politician winding up the gullible to hate fellow citizens. And there's a very good chance he will be the next President.
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More than 12 years since the tory government was elected in 2010 this:
truss
''I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back: Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the militant unions, the vested interests, the talking heads, the Brexit deniers, Extinction Rebellion and some of the people we had in the hall earlier.
I will not allow the anti-growth coalition to hold us back''
Labour actually supports the energy cap and a decent proportion of the tax cuts. So not anti growth. They do advocate a windfall tax to help take some of the pressure off the public purse though.
There is a large tranche of Tory MPs who are members of the anti growth club.
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Here's an indication of how f**ked this Government is.
You'll need to sit down before you read this, because if it doesn't make you feel dizzy, you've not been watching politics this last 20 years.
Ready?
Ian Duncan Smith says the Govt isn't being generous enough on benefits.
[/quoteHere's an indication of how f**ked this Government is.
You'll need to sit down before you read this, because if it doesn't make you feel dizzy, you've not been watching politics this last 20 years.
Ready?
Ian Duncan Smith says the Govt isn't being generous enough on benefits.
What a condescending prick you continue to be.
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The Opec oil cartel and its allies have agreed to a bigger than expected cut in oil production targets despite significant pressure from the US. Saudi and Russia working together to cut back oil supplies. Crude prices are already rising. More inflation on the way then.
There is no chance of seeing much growth, growth, growth in the UK economy. You can't grow an economy without affordable energy.
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The Opec oil cartel and its allies have agreed to a bigger than expected cut in oil production targets despite significant pressure from the US. Saudi and Russia working together to cut back oil supplies. Crude prices are already rising. More inflation on the way then.
There is no chance of seeing much growth, growth, growth in the UK economy. You can't grow an economy without affordable energy.
Saudis getting their own back because of the backlash to their State Sponsored murder of Mr Khashoggi.
At least it’ll give Newcastle more cash to spend in the January transfer window.
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
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''Rightwing thinktanks run this government. But first, they had to capture the BBC''
''Some of it is easy to understand. Liz Truss, a hollow vessel filled with secondhand ideas by the dark-money thinktanks, believed their assurances that the magic of an unregulated market and tax cuts for the very rich would trigger an economic boom. The thinktanks must scarcely have believed their luck: that someone so malleable could become prime minister.
On the day of the mini-budget, they crowed about taking over the government. The Conservative Home founder, Tim Montgomerie, remarked that this was “a massive moment” for the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), which had “incubated Truss and Kwarteng during their early years as MPs. Britain is now their laboratory.” The head of the institute, Mark Littlewood, then retweeted his comment with a sunglasses emoji.
I see these thinktanks, which refuse to reveal the sources of their funding, as lobbyists for hidden interests. We know from leaks and US reports that these include, in some cases, tobacco firms, oil firms and foreign oligarchs. But there is one question to which no one has provided a complete and satisfactory answer.
Day after day, year after year, the BBC has provided these extremists with a massive platform on its news and current affairs programmes. Major BBC programmes including Today, Question Time, Newsnight and Any Questions? are populated by speakers from the Institute of Economic Affairs, the Adam Smith Institute, the Taxpayers’ Alliance, the Centre for Policy Studies and Policy Exchange. These groups also happen to have been rated by the campaign Who Funds You? as among the most opaque of all those it investigated''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/05/rightwing-thinktanks-government-bbc-news-programmes
''Has Liz Truss handed power over to the extreme neoliberal thinktanks?''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/23/liz-truss-power-extreme-neoliberal-thinktanks
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
These are a selection of Tory Members .
It's a particularly hard watch to be honest .
https://youtu.be/lAY_IizLWMw
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
Note a rumour RD - it's a fact you can be a Tory Party member whilst living abroad. You don't even need to be a UK voter or any connection at all to the UK.
It has been highlighted that the Conservative Party does not require members to be UK citizens, nor for members to be registered to vote in this country.
Under the ‘frequently asked questions’ on the Conservative website, the party states that “Overseas residents are invited to join Conservatives Abroad and will be entitled to all the benefits of party membership. Your membership will be administered by Cities of London and Westminster Conservative Association”
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/07/22/concern-over-foreign-interference-and-conservative-membership-rules/
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
RD, do Labour Party members have to be elected?
That is a genuine question because I don’t know.
Are some LP members also non UK residents (I think I know the answer to that).
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
RD, do Labour Party members have to be elected?
That is a genuine question because I don’t know.
Are some LP members also non UK residents (I think I know the answer to that).
I don't think the arrangements the Labour Party has for electing its leaders are exactly ideal either.
For me the big issue is in changing a leader mid term. Unless that leader sticks broadly to the manifesto they were elected on there is a democratic problem. This is the point here, it's what Michael Gove of all people keeps saying.
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I see there are a couple of new members of the coalition of anti-growth. The ratings agencies Standard & Poor and Fitch! They've just cut the UKs rating from stable to negative.
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''Has Liz Truss handed power over to the extreme neoliberal thinktanks?''
https://twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1577574544478507009
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''Has Liz Truss handed power over to the extreme neoliberal thinktanks?''
https://twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1577574544478507009
The link I posted is the written article NP, and although I support the bulk of what GM says as he runs through all the forces that are turning the tory party and via them the country to the far right and possibly further what he doesn't say although he gives them plenty of stick is ............ how labour can expect to fight against all those cashed up entities including the media and expect to win if they don't bring the middle along.
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The money managers eh
''This is the second time that the UK’s credit rating has been in this position. Fitch has previously placed the UK on AA- with a negative outlook, back in March 2020, due to the impact of the pandemic on the public finances.
According to the Economic History Review, the UK received its first sovereign credit rating in 1978 - and held that prized AAA rating until 2013, when Moody’s became the first to downgrade the UK''
the Guardian
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I'm not sure the credit ratings agencies have any role or importance any more.
Back in 2010, Osborne insisted that we had to cut Govt spending to slash the deficit because if we didn't, we might lose our AAA status and that would push up interest rates.
What happened?
We cut Govt spending.
We didn't slash the deficit because the economy tanked so tax receipts didn't rise.
We lost our AAA rating.
Interest rates fell.
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
RD, do Labour Party members have to be elected?
That is a genuine question because I don’t know.
Are some LP members also non UK residents (I think I know the answer to that).
Do Labour Party members have to be elected? No, you apply for membership but this can be refused.
Are some LP members non-UK residents - No. Clause 2 Point 3 of the Labour Party rule book:
Individual members shall be subjects/residents of the UK or citizens of Eire or other persons resident in the UK or for more than 1 year.
I am not a LP member btw.
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
RD, do Labour Party members have to be elected?
That is a genuine question because I don’t know.
Are some LP members also non UK residents (I think I know the answer to that).
Do Labour Party members have to be elected? No, you apply for membership but this can be refused.
Are some LP members non-UK residents - No. Clause 2 Point 3 of the Labour Party rule book:
Individual members shall be subjects/residents of the UK or citizens of Eire or other persons resident in the UK or for more than 1 year.
I am not a LP member btw.
Chers for that wilts, I was wondering whether the Tories and the LP rules on membership are similar.
In fact RD says “rumours” abound that Tory members are not UK residents so are those rumours true or false?
He also says that the members aren’t elected but I would think that they probably apply to join the Party in the same way that people apply to join other Party’s.
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
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The Greenleace protest made a good point today. Just who did vote for all this?
Conservative members, who are they? Rumour has it some are not even UK residents. They certainly aren't elected, and yet they have the power to impose this car crash on us.
Tory MPs at least have the legitimacy of being elected and they wanted Sunak. The nations finances would look much better now if he was leader, that's for sure.
RD, do Labour Party members have to be elected?
That is a genuine question because I don’t know.
Are some LP members also non UK residents (I think I know the answer to that).
Do Labour Party members have to be elected? No, you apply for membership but this can be refused.
Are some LP members non-UK residents - No. Clause 2 Point 3 of the Labour Party rule book:
Individual members shall be subjects/residents of the UK or citizens of Eire or other persons resident in the UK or for more than 1 year.
I am not a LP member btw.
Chers for that wilts, I was wondering whether the Tories and the LP rules on membership are similar.
In fact RD says “rumours” abound that Tory members are not UK residents so are those rumours true or false?
He also says that the members aren’t elected but I would think that they probably apply to join the Party in the same way that people apply to join other Party’s.
The Tory Party famously do not reveal details of their membership - but they have instructions for how people living overseas with no connection to the UK can join the party and vote in its leadership elections - so you would presume there are some.
It was claimed during the leadership election that a lot of people from India were joing to vote for Sunak, but unless the Tories release details of where their members reside then we will never know for sure.
I am afraid life is too short for me to want to compare the LP & CP rule books and pick out the differences - but they are both online if you want to bother! I think this is the significant one tho - you dont have to have any connection to the UK to be a Tory member and vote in their elections - but to join the Labour Party you do.
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
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Sydney. Is it true that aborigines ‘feel’ their way through the bush?
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which ones Col?
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Only nodding at LPC? They were full on fast asleep at the CPC, and these are the ones who put Truss in place
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
If you think that Tyke is far right wing, then your understanding of the English language is even worse than I thought.
However, let's talk about your political position. Your obvious dislike of Mick Lynch and the left, and your devoted love of Keith, would suggest that you are centrist.
Am I right?
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
First of all I ain't your mate , secondly I'm not the one who moved 10k miles of his own volition to live in a right wing country , aye !!
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A leaked report coming out of the OBR has indicated that the mini budget will create a £70bn black hole in the UK economy .
Glad it was only a mini budget then , you have to wonder what the proper one will look like , if they get that far that is .
:suicide: :suicide: :suicide:
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
If you think that Tyke is far right wing, then your understanding of the English language is even worse than I thought.
However, let's talk about your political position. Your obvious dislike of Mick Lynch and the left, and your devoted love of Keith, would suggest that you are centrist.
Am I right?
Not at all my other far right wing friend, please show me where I have said anything at all against him.
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A leaked report coming out of the OBR has indicated that the mini budget will create a £70bn black hole in the UK economy .
Glad it was only a mini budget then , you have to wonder what the proper one will look like , if they get that far that is .
:suicide: :suicide: :suicide:
When Truss has been chanting her growth mantra - who thought it was referring to her growing the National Debt?
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
If you think that Tyke is far right wing, then your understanding of the English language is even worse than I thought.
However, let's talk about your political position. Your obvious dislike of Mick Lynch and the left, and your devoted love of Keith, would suggest that you are centrist.
Am I right?
Not at all my other far right wing friend, please show me where I have said anything at all against him.
Please show me some evidence of me being far right wing.
I've repeatedly said on here that I want to see the railways and public utilities taken back into public ownership, and that I support all striking unions, and the Enough is Enough campaign.
Now I know you struggle badly with semantics and the English language, but how could any of the above be associated with the far right?
Game, set, and match to me, once again.
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Only weeks in but no calls suggesting that truss is a labour asset?
Presumably you mean Labour have all the answers with that comment .
Plenty of talk last week at the Conference laped up by the nodding donkeys .
Short on detail on how they are going to fund it .
Nit at all my far right wing friend, I've never claimed that, what I have said is that under this voting system not voting labour favours the tories/
If you think that Tyke is far right wing, then your understanding of the English language is even worse than I thought.
However, let's talk about your political position. Your obvious dislike of Mick Lynch and the left, and your devoted love of Keith, would suggest that you are centrist.
Am I right?
Not at all my other far right wing friend, please show me where I have said anything at all against him.
Please show me some evidence of me being far right wing.
I've repeatedly said on here that I want to see the railways and public utilities taken back into public ownership, and that I support all striking unions, and the Enough is Enough campaign.
Now I know you struggle badly with semantics and the English language, but how could any of the above be associated with the far right?
Game, set, and match to me, once again.
I don't remember seeing a comment from your good self nor tykey when I posted this last week ............
''Think about this Steve, what got trump into power, MAGA (sovereignty) and immigration policy pages straight from the far right playbook, but don't take my word ask Le Pen, farage or any other far right player.
With me so far, good.
Now what did you and tyke vote for? think about the main planks of brexit and then think about your votes.
And let me get this straight you are saying you haven't gone over to the far right you just vote for those sort of policies put to the people by a right wing government.
Think Ronald Reagan:
After the weapon sales were revealed in November 1986, Reagan appeared on national television and stated that the weapons transfers had indeed occurred, but that the United States did not trade arms for hostages.
A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not. As the Tower board reported, what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages. This runs counter to my own beliefs, to administration policy, and to the original strategy we had in mind.
Think Bill Clinton ................... think brexit voters''
If it walks and talks like a duck and has similar goals to putin in wanting to break up the EU ................. maybe it's just semantics.
game set and quack!
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While you are fiddling around Steve, don't forget to show me where I have ......
..... ''However, let's talk about your political position. Your obvious dislike of Mick Lynch and the left, and your devoted love of Keith, would suggest that you are centrist''
........ any time you are ready to show me what I wrote Steve
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Wrong again, Sydney, being anti-EU is a far left concept, endorsed by people like Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner, Jeremy Corbyn, and many trade unions.
The strange thing is, Keith isn't going to apply to re-join the EU, but Ed Davey is, so you'll be OK.
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That's the thing aye Steve sucked in and still can't see it. Reagan couldn't see it till presented with the evidence Clinton outright lied, hmmm
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I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my post directly above, but if you don't produce evidence of my 'obvious dislike of Lynch' what am I to think Steve?
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How long ago was it that Truss was foisted on us as PM by the Tory Party? 5 weeks?
https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-ministers-urge-colleagues-to-hold-their-nerve-and-rally-behind-truss-or-risk-election-defeat-12716157?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Going well int it? Four Cabinet Ministers have today felt the need to write rallying calls in the papers to get MPs to support her, while Grant Shapps has offered to replace her.
Yep, that's right. Truss is so unremittingly useless as PM, Grant Shapps reckons there's a chance the Tories might prefer his lying self instead.
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Things will get better for her. Ed balls was good on Andrew Neil's show saying the real difficult bit for labour is following up on what they have criticized. People may not like that and it may help Truss. I suspect the next election will be about who we dislike the least more than ever.
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I think it's more the tories have to turn it around, they are calling the shots, they are way behind in the polls.
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Put your football managers hat on pud, back on the field after halftime, all the subs used up and 3 goals down, desperate times mean a more exposed defence.
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How long ago was it that Truss was foisted on us as PM by the Tory Party? 5 weeks?
https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-ministers-urge-colleagues-to-hold-their-nerve-and-rally-behind-truss-or-risk-election-defeat-12716157?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Going well int it? Four Cabinet Ministers have today felt the need to write rallying calls in the papers to get MPs to support her, while Grant Shapps has offered to replace her.
Yep, that's right. Truss is so unremittingly useless as PM, Grant Shapps reckons there's a chance the Tories might prefer his lying self instead.
Shapps a man don't forget who almost ruined a Constituent who pointed out Shapps had a second job when it was illegal for an MP
The Constituent then had to issue an apology and when he did Shapps lawyers said it wasn't good enough and wrote their own for Constituent to sign. All along the Constituent KNEW he was right.
Then Shapps presided over a Meeting for the Pyramid Company (which was his second job) wearing a Badge with Michael Green printed on it. At that point he was "exposed" and turned out he used at least 3 other names such as Sebastian Fox and even a Ladies name something like Caroline Stockbridge. She used to leave positive comments on his Company
Google Grant Shapps controversies .... And it is plural ... for the totally accurate story of the above and the other stuff he's done AND still prospered
And remember folks if you get caught don't apologise just say I didn't lie , I just over firmly denied having 2 jobs
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Things will get better for her. Ed balls was good on Andrew Neil's show saying the real difficult bit for labour is following up on what they have criticized. People may not like that and it may help Truss. I suspect the next election will be about who we dislike the least more than ever.
The Tories have a problem in they have a leader who is far far more obviously robotic and out of touch than Starmer. Also more bonkers than Johnson. I think the Tory faithful voted for a quick handout for the wealthy, economic destruction to trip up the "socialists", and 5 years sunny holiday eatimg bananas in the Caymans.
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Things will get better for her. Ed balls was good on Andrew Neil's show saying the real difficult bit for labour is following up on what they have criticized. People may not like that and it may help Truss. I suspect the next election will be about who we dislike the least more than ever.
The Tories have a problem in they have a leader who is far far more obviously robotic and out of touch than Starmer. Also more bonkers than Johnson. I think the Tory faithful voted for a quick handout for the wealthy, economic destruction to trip up the "socialists", and 5 years sunny holiday eatimg bananas in the Caymans.
What's even more ironic is that the wealthy Tory membership have just screwed over their main source of votes and virtually handed the Labour Party a landslide election victory .
I was watching some content last night with a bloke who owns and runs a polling company , they have to be politically impartial obviously in public but he reckons at this moment in time the Tories wouldn't win one single seat if there was an election tomorrow .
He acknowledged that it wouldn't play out in reality but none the less that's what his figures say .
Tory MP's sitting on 22k majorities are shytting bricks .
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Things will get better for her. Ed balls was good on Andrew Neil's show saying the real difficult bit for labour is following up on what they have criticized. People may not like that and it may help Truss. I suspect the next election will be about who we dislike the least more than ever.
The Tories have a problem in they have a leader who is far far more obviously robotic and out of touch than Starmer. Also more bonkers than Johnson. I think the Tory faithful voted for a quick handout for the wealthy, economic destruction to trip up the "socialists", and 5 years sunny holiday eatimg bananas in the Caymans.
What's even more ironic is that the wealthy Tory membership have just screwed over their main source of votes and virtually handed the Labour Party a landslide election victory .
I was watching some content last night with a bloke who owns and runs a polling company , they have to be politically impartial obviously in public but he reckons at this moment in time the Tories wouldn't win one single seat if there was an election tomorrow .
He acknowledged that it wouldn't play out in reality but none the less that's what his figures say .
Tory MP's sitting on 22k majorities are shytting bricks .
Let's be honest, Tyke. Those red wall seats weren't given to the Tories, they were lent. It was just a one-off because of Brexit, and I said so at the time.
The thing is, that 80 seat majority is soon going to be a waste of time, because several Tory MPs are planning to vote with Labour on certain emotive issues, such as universal credit.
The scale of victory for Labour in 2024 is going to be colossal.
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The result of the votes being 'lent' however is the everlasting damage to the uk economy and the tory party being in a much stronger position.
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And of course it is strengthening the resolve of Scotland to split from the Union and the chaos across the Irish/NI border is not helping there either.
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And the rise of johnson and truss, full bingo card there methinks
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And the rise of johnson and truss, full bingo card there methinks
You mean the rise and fall of Johnson and Truss.
What goes around comes around.
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Big spending cuts on the way no doubt. That will be Truss’s poison chalice.
The door will be left wide open for Labour to shuffle through into govt come the next election.
Does anyone know what Labours current stance is on public sector pay rises btw?
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
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If you were deliberately trying to tank the UK economy, implementing a policy within 3 weeks of taking power that leads America's biggest bank to conclude that you have permanently raised the cost of borrowing because the markets now think you are a risky investment would be a cool way of going about it.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BruceReuters/status/1579492487370280962
Just think what damage Truss and Kwarteng might manage to do in 2 years!
And just imagine the reaction if this had been a Labour Government...
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
There is not and never ever will be any substitute for strong trade unions in the workplace who can collectively bargain for terms and conditions .
Anything about pay in your link Syd ?
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No tyke, wasn't that covered in the brexit propaganda?
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
There is not and never ever will be any substitute for strong trade unions in the workplace who can collectively bargain for terms and conditions .
Anything about pay in your link Syd ?
Tyke, judging by what Labour have done with Sam Tarry might suggest that Labour are not backing the unions.
Deselecting him is a big statement.
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If you were deliberately trying to tank the UK economy, implementing a policy within 3 weeks of taking power that leads America's biggest bank to conclude that you have permanently raised the cost of borrowing because the markets now think you are a risky investment would be a cool way of going about it.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BruceReuters/status/1579492487370280962
Just think what damage Truss and Kwarteng might manage to do in 2 years!
And just imagine the reaction if this had been a Labour Government...
As I say. Imagine if this was a Labour Government.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63211743
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Hound, I think Sam Tarry was sacked from the shadow cabinet for what he said in the press, but even then he was undergoing deselection by his local party.
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
So what we suspected is true. You ARE against Trade Unions. No wonder you love Keith so much.
Speaking of Keith, if the EU is as wonderful as you say, why does he say he won't apply to re-join them when Labour gets back in?
In your own time.
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And of course it is strengthening the resolve of Scotland to split from the Union and the chaos across the Irish/NI border is not helping there either.
I'd imagine that a Labour/SNP link will also be a big factor in any up coming elections, whilst ever they are still part of the union they will be a very big turn off for a great many voters, both Labour and Tory. I don't know if many on here have made any sort of link with this but Keith certainly has, you only need to read his views on any sort of Lab/SNP pact, he's trying to run a mile from them and distance himself from any involvement.
I don't suppose his opponents will be slow off the mark with this.
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There is a big question mark over who Truss sidekick KamiKwasi is actually working for.
Private Eye suggested he has been on a retainer from hedge fund boss Crispin Odey, his former employer.
Now it looks like he has been doing a bit of middle east extra curricular:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kwasi-kwarteng-saudi-oil-meetings-b2200096.html
Dubious!
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
There is not and never ever will be any substitute for strong trade unions in the workplace who can collectively bargain for terms and conditions .
Anything about pay in your link Syd ?
Tyke, judging by what Labour have done with Sam Tarry might suggest that Labour are not backing the unions.
Deselecting him is a big statement.
They quite like the Union Funding though Hound .
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No tyke, wasn't that covered in the brexit propaganda?
Make Brexit Better
Vote Labour
Fixed it for you Syd .
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Hound, I think Sam Tarry was sacked from the shadow cabinet for what he said in the press, but even then he was undergoing deselection by his local party.
Fair enough Hounslow but I thought he had been reprimanded for joining a picket line as well.
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f**king hell, THIS raises the stakes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63211743
The subtext here. BoE Chairman saying to the Govt "This is YOUR doing. YOU, not us, need to unshit the bed."
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No tyke, wasn't that covered in the brexit propaganda?
Make Brexit Better
Vote Labour
Fixed it for you Syd .
No you and your mates fixed it for everyone, you just have a little difficulty being truthful with yourself is all.
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
So what we suspected is true. You ARE against Trade Unions. No wonder you love Keith so much.
Speaking of Keith, if the EU is as wonderful as you say, why does he say he won't apply to re-join them when Labour gets back in?
In your own time.
Anytime you wish to explain why you just happen to align with trump, farage, le penn and putin I be all ears.
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''Power giants to face windfall tax after all as Liz Truss delivers U-turn
Prime minister accused of ‘another screeching U-turn’ having previously rejected calls to impose levy''
The malignant ex-schoolgirl from Leeds learns the hard way about life, economics and politics.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/11/power-giants-to-face-windfall-tax-after-all-as-liz-truss-delivers-u-turn
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Hound, I think Sam Tarry was sacked from the shadow cabinet for what he said in the press, but even then he was undergoing deselection by his local party.
And .....
Labour started its trigger ballot process late last year. Where there is an incumbent Labour MP, it gives local members a simple choice: they can vote to automatically select the MP as a candidate for the next election or they can vote to“trigger” a full selection process in which the MP could have to face off against other challengers. Members can force a selection only where a majority of local party and affiliate (such as trade unions) branches vote to trigger such a contest.
from The Guardian
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Mogg still claiming the earth is flat then.
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f**king hell, THIS raises the stakes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63211743
The subtext here. BoE Chairman saying to the Govt "This is YOUR doing. YOU, not us, need to unshit the bed."
On reflection, this is absolutely stupid by the BoE. It might have been born of frustration at having to deal with Kwarteng's bonehead idiocy, but the Bank cannot say it's going to allow financial carnage in 3 days time if the markets don't settle down.
Saying that has caused a panic to set it. Bond rates have soared again. The £ has sunk again.
Now the BoE is backtracking on its threat and saying it will continue to support bonds of necessary.
A right f**king mess. It's bad enough having an insane Chancellor, without having an incompetent BoE as well. I truly do worry about what's coming for our economy over the next 18 months.
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But they're independent, so that's alright. Still highly sceptical that fully independent is right.
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f**king hell, THIS raises the stakes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63211743
The subtext here. BoE Chairman saying to the Govt &quot;This is YOUR doing. YOU, not us, need to unshit the bed.&quot;
On reflection, this is absolutely stupid by the BoE. It might have been born of frustration at having to deal with Kwarteng's bonehead idiocy, but the Bank cannot say it's going to allow financial carnage in 3 days time if the markets don't settle down.
Saying that has caused a panic to set it. Bond rates have soared again. The £ has sunk again.
Now the BoE is backtracking on its threat and saying it will continue to support bonds of necessary.
A right f**king mess. It's bad enough having an insane Chancellor, without having an incompetent BoE as well. I truly do worry about what's coming for our economy over the next 18 months.
I do wonder if the Bank - both the institution and the personnel - are really equipped to cope with an ideological tug of war with the government. I'm no expert but felt they were supposed to tweak things here and there rather than constantly work as fire fighters. I wonder if anyone there has ever experienced this situation before.
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BoE has certainly never experienced this before.
We have the Govt pouring money into the economy to drive growth, precisely at the same time that the BoE is trying to throttle back growth to curb inflation. Absolutely unprecedented mess.
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I naively thought, earlier this Summer, that Truss had a brilliant plan to have a massive growth boom over the next year then call an election with enough people's pockets stuffed.
Silly me.
That assumed a level of competence that is clearly beyond her. She's obviously as mad as a box of frogs, given the way her economic policy is shaping up.
PMQs today was the moment of revelation.
She's not going to cancel the tax cuts
She's not going to tax the gas producers
Now she's not going to cut public spending.
So she's going to finance £43bn of tax cuts by borrowing. Breaking every single rule of economics. And slamming up the price of borrowing as a result. Which will cripple many mortgage holders and companies that need credit.
She gives the average household maybe £100/month off their energy bills and maybe £50/month off NI and income tax. But the average mortgage is going up by £3-500 because of the way she has spooked the debt markets.
And she thinks this is going to magically produce growth.
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
So what we suspected is true. You ARE against Trade Unions. No wonder you love Keith so much.
Speaking of Keith, if the EU is as wonderful as you say, why does he say he won't apply to re-join them when Labour gets back in?
In your own time.
Anytime you wish to explain why you just happen to align with trump, farage, le penn and putin I be all ears.
Sydney, I'm worried about you. You seriously need some Diazepam.
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Just to remind people, the reason Johnson chose Bailey to be Governor of the BoE was that he was one of the few financiers to be supportive of the Tory's Brexit 'policy'. Hmmm...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1219775/Bank-of-England-Andrew-Bailey-brexit
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Truss: “Your Majesty… Lovely to see you again.”
King Charles III: “Back again. Dear oh dear. Anyway…”
https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105
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Am I imagining it or has there now been a massive U turn and they are now going to tax the Energy Companies profits?
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Last I heard, they were going to tax the profits of renewable an nuclear electricity producers. But not gas producers.
No. Me neither...
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Yet more DoubleSpeak from Team Truss today.
In PMQs today, Truss said unambiguously that she wasn't going to cut public spending. Then her media team spent the afternoon briefing journalists that they ARE going to cut public spending.
This is your regular reminder that this sort of dysfunctional lying did not used to be common in our politics until very recently. Now it seems endemic in the Tory party.
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Sounds to me you still don't accept the enormity of what has happened Steve, giving the tories life support over brexit, using the word 'lent' is an attempt to minimise participation.
https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vkyhnfcdtny2?ctx=vk4jic6t1dxz
UK Unions are talking of a general strike to maintain their positions, look at what the EU are doing.
All predictable all forecasted.
So what we suspected is true. You ARE against Trade Unions. No wonder you love Keith so much.
Speaking of Keith, if the EU is as wonderful as you say, why does he say he won't apply to re-join them when Labour gets back in?
In your own time.
Anytime you wish to explain why you just happen to align with trump, farage, le penn and putin I be all ears.
Sydney, I'm worried about you. You seriously need some Diazepam.
I can take your insults Steve, but I would much prefer you to answer the questions I pose to you.
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Some wild briefing going on following truss meeting the 1922 committee tonight. I've got stuff in my fridge older than this government. It's mad.
Surely they need to put country before party at some point.
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4/6 now on Truss to be booted out next year.
But apparently most money is being lumped on at 6/1 against for her to not make it to Xmas this year.
What an utter shambles.
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Rees-Mogg tonight has said that if the OBR don't agree with Kwarteng he should ignore them.
Are they genuinely trying to tank the economy? Honestly, if they were plants from a hostile state, they could barely be doing a better job.
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It must be habit forming ........ 6 months ago .........
''Sunak pours scorn on the OBR’s dire warnings''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/03/sunak-pours-scorn-on-the-obrs-dire-warnings-but-the-facts-speak-for-themelves
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Rees-Mogg tonight has said that if the OBR don't agree with Kwarteng he should ignore them.
Are they genuinely trying to tank the economy? Honestly, if they were plants from a hostile state, they could barely be doing a better job.
It was his own party that founded and set up the OBR , Osborne was the architect in 2010 when they came to power with the Lib Dems following the financial crash .
The reason it was founded is pretty self explanatory following 2008 .
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Yet more DoubleSpeak from Team Truss today.
In PMQs today, Truss said unambiguously that she wasn't going to cut public spending. Then her media team spent the afternoon briefing journalists that they ARE going to cut public spending.
This is your regular reminder that this sort of dysfunctional lying did not used to be common in our politics until very recently. Now it seems endemic in the Tory party.
They looked at this on Peston. There is almost no area of public spending cuts that a majority of Tory MP's will support (its needs 35 to rebel and there are said to be over 100 against her on some areas).
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Yet more DoubleSpeak from Team Truss today.
In PMQs today, Truss said unambiguously that she wasn't going to cut public spending. Then her media team spent the afternoon briefing journalists that they ARE going to cut public spending.
This is your regular reminder that this sort of dysfunctional lying did not used to be common in our politics until very recently. Now it seems endemic in the Tory party.
They looked at this on Peston. There is almost no area of public spending cuts that a majority of Tory MP's will support (its needs 35 to rebel and there are said to be over 100 against her on some areas).
If that is the case then action needs to be taken soon.
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Yet more DoubleSpeak from Team Truss today.
In PMQs today, Truss said unambiguously that she wasn't going to cut public spending. Then her media team spent the afternoon briefing journalists that they ARE going to cut public spending.
This is your regular reminder that this sort of dysfunctional lying did not used to be common in our politics until very recently. Now it seems endemic in the Tory party.
They looked at this on Peston. There is almost no area of public spending cuts that a majority of Tory MP's will support (its needs 35 to rebel and there are said to be over 100 against her on some areas).
If that is the case then action needs to be taken soon.
It's like I said when the minibudget was announced. The backbenchers can't ditch another leader so soon after they got the job, the PM can't threaten an election to discipline the backbenchers because they know it's an empty threat.
It's going to be a case of the tail wagging the dog - the Parliamentary Party deciding what will get through the Commons, not the government. It'll then be down to Truss whether she bows to that or falls on her own sword.
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4/6 now on Truss to be booted out next year.
But apparently most money is being lumped on at 6/1 against for her to not make it to Xmas this year.
What an utter shambles.
Hard to keep up with this.
Now 1/2 on for her being gone next year and 19/5 against for her to go before this Xmas.
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Massive U-turn on the Budget incoming by all accounts. Tory MPs have been briefed to avoid going on media to support the Budget measures in case they are made to look stupid by impending decisions.
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I can't see Truss surviving much longer. Kwateng even less so.
Options for Tories are:
Falling to third place in the next GE.
Choosing another leader, and looking weak flip floppy.
Bringing Johnson back.
Calling a GE asap.
I think that last option is the strongest or will at least be gathering strength, not least because the elites in this country can see the problems coming if they don't get a new government. Starmer as PM is as perfect as they can get. He'll do all the establishment jobs - crush the unions, keep the left away from power, raise taxes, fund Ukraine, Israel etc, be the safe face for UK foriegn relations, and pave the way for the next Tory government in 5 or so years.
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Options for Tories are:
Falling to third place in the next GE.
Choosing another leader, and looking weak flip floppy.
Bringing Johnson back.
Calling a GE asap.
You've missed out the most obvious option, that I outlined above.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
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Rees-Mogg has been insisting this week that Kwarteng's KamiKwasi Budget isn't the source of our problems?
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1580152819155279872?s=20&t=TNGutGiwkF3bB_Vr-6J0ew
Remember, an increase of 100 basis points on bonds effectively means that the interest payments on a £100k mortgage go up by £80/month and the Govt has to pay £20bn extra on debt interest every year.
So, the effect of the Budget on its own was to increase Govt debt payments by £30bn per year. That's enough to build 45 new infirmaries per year.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
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Options for Tories are:
Falling to third place in the next GE.
Choosing another leader, and looking weak flip floppy.
Bringing Johnson back.
Calling a GE asap.
You've missed out the most obvious option, that I outlined above.
Problem there is it making them look weak, Truss looking more looney than ever. And with that, deffo 3rd place next election. I'd love to see that but a bridge too far?
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
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Well BRR has put a case forward for having a GE which could be credible if the Tory’s were happy to lose a GE but with a longer term plan to win the following one.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
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Options for Tories are:
Falling to third place in the next GE.
Choosing another leader, and looking weak flip floppy.
Bringing Johnson back.
Calling a GE asap.
You've missed out the most obvious option, that I outlined above.
Problem there is it making them look weak, Truss looking more looney than ever. And with that, deffo 3rd place next election. I'd love to see that but a bridge too far?
I know all the consequences but it's still the least worst option for them.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
Parliament doesn't have votes of confidence in the PM, but in the Government as a whole.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
Parliament doesn't have votes of confidence in the PM, but in the Government as a whole.
Yes that's technically correct, but it is the PM's Government. The PM is the leader of the Govt and by far the most powerful person in it. A VONC in the Govt is basically Parliament saying they want a change of leadership.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
So why didn't this 'only one outcome' happen when the Tories didn't support Boris? Because it doesn't work like that.
The backbenchers will tell Truss what policies they will vote for. Either she goes along with them and her government limps on or she resigns - which means a new Tory leader without a General Election. Again.
Just because a Government loses a vote in the Commons it doesn't mean a General Election - otherwise we'd have had a General Election every time May lost yet another Brexit vote because her own backbenchers voted against her.
Oh, btw, the first option when there is true paralysis would be the monarch asking if there was someone else in the Commons who would be able to govern with a majority. In this case maybe Sunak could - they don't even have to be an elected party leader, just be able to get MPs to vote for their legislation in the Commons. Not a General Election.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
Parliament doesn't have votes of confidence in the PM, but in the Government as a whole.
Yes that's technically correct, but it is the PM's Government. The PM is the leader of the Govt and by far the most powerful person in it. A VONC in the Govt is basically Parliament saying they want a change of leadership.
No it isn't. It's the Commons saying they have no confidence in the Government, exactly as it says on the tin. Tory backbenchers will support a Government even if they don't support a particular PM. That's the difference.
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It IS possible that a GE comes out of this disaster.
I get the impression that Tory MPs know that they cannot ditch Truss and go to another contested leadership battle. That would mean no PM this side of the New Year. If they do that, they'll never get in power again. It would be a humiliation and abdication of responsibility for the ages. The sort of thing history books would talk about in 500 years time as one of the Great Disasters.
So they need to have someone who a majority of them can get behind and replace Truss immediately, without a contested campaign.
But who?
Sunak and Javid are hated by Team Johnson as the ones who betrayed their leader. Mordaunt is totally untested. Braverman and Badenoch are absolute batshit far-right, bordering on fascists.
So it is possible that they can't agree on anyone. In which case, it's not unfeasible that there's no majority for any Govt in the House and there has to be a GE.
I still think it's unlikely. If there's a GE now, the Tories would lose 250 seats. 2 years of someone like Sunak at the helm might give an air of stability an limit their eventual loss to 100 seats. I assume there's enough level headed Tory MPs to realise that. But I could be wrong.
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Kwasi being cut adrift ..... The Times
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
Parliament doesn't have votes of confidence in the PM, but in the Government as a whole.
Yes that's technically correct, but it is the PM's Government. The PM is the leader of the Govt and by far the most powerful person in it. A VONC in the Govt is basically Parliament saying they want a change of leadership.
No it isn't. It's the Commons saying they have no confidence in the Government, exactly as it says on the tin. Tory backbenchers will support a Government even if they don't support a particular PM. That's the difference.
I think we're in angels on pinheads territory here.
I agree that a VONC doesn't necessarily result in a GE.
It does, by definition, lead to a change of Govt. And in almost every conceivable situation, that would mean a change of PM.
A VONC right now would be on the issue of whether the House had confidence in a Govt led by Truss. In practice it would be a vote on whether the House had confidence in her as PM.
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Reports that Kamikwasi is being sacked right now and Truss will be reversing the mini budget this afternoon
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What’s the criteria for a recall petition? Could it be done in multiple constituencies?
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There is no way back from the tories. Boris had his faults but they were better off with him than without. Truss does not at all have what it takes.
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''Unlike recall procedures in some other countries, the act does not allow constituents to initiate proceedings. Instead, proceedings are initiated only if an MP is found guilty of a wrongdoing that fulfils certain criteria. This petition is successful if at least one in ten voters in the constituency sign. Successful petitions force the recalled MP to vacate the seat, resulting in a by-election.
To date, three petitions have been made under the act; two of these received sufficient signatures to trigger a by-election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recall_of_MPs_Act_2015#:~:text=This%20petition%20is%20successful%20if,to%20trigger%20a%20by%2Delection.
Not for incompetence unfortunately
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Reports that Kamikwasi is being sacked right now and Truss will be reversing the mini budget this afternoon
Not a bad few weeks for him financially, crashed the pound so his mate that has him on a retainer can make a fortune, he’ll get a pay off from his ministerial role, and f**ked Truss twice now one physically and one literally
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There is no way back from the tories. Boris had his faults but they were better off with him than without. Truss does not at all have what it takes.
He did have that charisma thingy that many signed up to, but it's very debatable whether he was better for the country.
johnson broke every rule and convention that got in his way, truss is breaking the bank.
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Names being touted to replace Kamikwasi are Simon Clarke and, wait for it, Theresa Coffey. Is that 5he same Ms Coffey that told nurses yesterday, that if they didn't like their below inflation pay offer , they could leave the NHS?
That'll get Waiting Lists down.
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How many Tory "rebels" who know they aren't going to re elected will it take to swing a Parliamentary VONC in the Oppositions favour?
Javid is another name added to replace Kami
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What is clear is that Truss is not in control, she publicly backed the Chancellor, she has to fall on her sword and go, A General Election is the only way out of this mess
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He's gone.
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So
When does that post-Johnson bounce kick in?
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Latest is that a group of 'senior tories'
are determined to get rid of Truss and it will be very difficult for her to survive it.
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Jeremy Hunt to be named Chancellor according to the guy who broke the Kwasi sacking story.
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Interesting that in his letter, confirming he was sacked, he says he's sorry that he could not continue with HER policies.
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That will be 4 chancellors in 4 months .
Staff turnover akin to Mac Donald’s.
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That will be 4 chancellors in 4 months .
Staff turnover akin to Mac Donald’s.
I wonder who'll be next month's Chancellor?
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Hunt confirmed as this month's Chancellor.
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Little microcosm of how utterly lacking in any spine or honesty some in the Tory party are.
Greg Hands was on R4 this morning. He campaigned for Sunak in the summer and (correctly) said Truss's economic plans would bring carnage to the financial markets.
Then Truss won and offered him a ministerial position. He took it.
This morning, he was saying how much he supported Truss's economic policies. How they were right for the country. He said Truss and Kwarteng were in lockstep together.
Within 4 hours, Kwarteng's fired and they are just about to ditch Truss's economic policies.
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Just checking if Hunt with a silent C is still Chancellor
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So let me get this straight, an incompetent recently appointed PM has just sacked her own incompetent recently appointed Chancellor for implementing her own incompetent policies...
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Greater self love hath no woman than this.
That she lays down someone else's career to save hers.
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Just listened to her press conference.
Christ, that was horrific. She made Theresa May seem like Graham Norton.
I feel dirty having experienced that. It's like being a voyeur at someone's nervous breakdown.
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Can you begin to imagine how far down the Dunning-Kruger highway Truss is?
She's been in Govt for 11 years. She's seen how hard it is being PM from close up. And it appears never to have dawned on her that she might be just a tiny tad out of her depth in that role.
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Genuine question, mainly for a bit of fun.
Could Boris actually be brought back here? Is it beyond the realms of possibility, with the way this lot are performing?
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I've seen it twice and still can't believe it.
Always said she had a slate loose.
Now I think you can see the loft insulation.
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SS, there is every possibility that they might recall Boris.
However, whatever happens, Truss has to go.
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
No there isn't.
There only has to be an early GE if Parliament cannot find a PM who can command a majority.
If Parliament votes No Confidence in Truss, but is prepared to support, say, Sunak or Mordaunt, there's no need to have a GE.
Truss has no authority , the country is set for a huge recession .
She won't last too much longer and neither will this government .
In my opinion .
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Smells like a GE coming to me .
Really? Can you smell who it is that's going to make it happen too? Because the people who want one can't make one happen and the people who can make it happen don't want one.
It's called paralysis , the leader can't govern because she's no longer got a majority .
There's only one outcome in such situations .
So why didn't this 'only one outcome' happen when the Tories didn't support Boris? Because it doesn't work like that.
The backbenchers will tell Truss what policies they will vote for. Either she goes along with them and her government limps on or she resigns - which means a new Tory leader without a General Election. Again.
Just because a Government loses a vote in the Commons it doesn't mean a General Election - otherwise we'd have had a General Election every time May lost yet another Brexit vote because her own backbenchers voted against her.
Oh, btw, the first option when there is true paralysis would be the monarch asking if there was someone else in the Commons who would be able to govern with a majority. In this case maybe Sunak could - they don't even have to be an elected party leader, just be able to get MPs to vote for their legislation in the Commons. Not a General Election.
Totally disagree , guess we will see in due course .
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The Lib Dem 1994 version
https://youtu.be/2qfg1AQnWIM
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SS, there is every possibility that they might recall Boris.
However, whatever happens, Truss has to go.
As he left his last pmq’s he uttered the immortal words “Hasta la vista, baby”.
Let’s all pray those words don’t come back to haunt us!
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Here's the really frightening thing.
She's made the worst policy decision in decades, going for that batshit Budget.
She's now effectively admitted it was wrong by reversing half the tax cuts.
Did it not dawn on her to say "sorry" in this Press Conf?
She could have said "I believed and still believe that the tax cuts were the right way forward but you can't buck the Market. I'm sorry for the mistake and I'm going to learn fast."
A bit of humility. Maybe get a few people on her side.
Instead we got the dead eyed doll just lifelessly repeating "I want growth"
The level of disconnect with the scale of the f**k-up she has unleashed is genuinely scary.
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The Lib Dem 1994 version
https://youtu.be/2qfg1AQnWIM
What an absolute disgrace as a human being. She's not only as mad as a March hare, she's the biggest turncoat I've ever seen. From a Lib Dem to a Tory, from a ranting anti-monarchist to someone reading the second lesson at the Queen's funeral; and then a U turn on practically every policy she's spouted about since she's been in office.
F*ck me, we all know Boris was bad, but this woman's beyond words.
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The Lib Dem 1994 version
https://youtu.be/2qfg1AQnWIM
What an absolute disgrace as a human being. She's not only as mad as a March hare, she's the biggest turncoat I've ever seen. From a Lib Dem to a Tory, from a ranting anti-monarchist to someone reading the second lesson at the Queen's funeral; and then a U turn on practically every policy she's spouted about since she's been in office.
F*ck me, we all know Boris was bad, but this woman's beyond words.
You WERE warned...
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The Lib Dem 1994 version
https://youtu.be/2qfg1AQnWIM
What an absolute disgrace as a human being. She's not only as mad as a March hare, she's the biggest turncoat I've ever seen. From a Lib Dem to a Tory, from a ranting anti-monarchist to someone reading the second lesson at the Queen's funeral; and then a U turn on practically every policy she's spouted about since she's been in office.
F*ck me, we all know Boris was bad, but this woman's beyond words.
There's no unifying politician in the Tory ranks Steve , they are completely fecked mate .
The game is up , there isn't a move they can make that makes this better , sacking Kamakwasi improves nothing , U turns don't cut it with electorate .
The biggest issue is they've nobody to blame anymore , totally out of bullets .
Two more years just isn't going to happen in my opinion with the shyte show that's coming down the road .
The Tories will take the hammering they are going to receive and play the long game knowing full well Labour have a mountain of problems to overcome .
Keith will get it big time everyday in the Tory press whilst the Conservatives knuckle down in opposition and sort themselves out .
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Tyke.
The Tories have nothing to sort themselves out over. They are utterly bereft of any intellectual underpinning political philosophy. They have stood for nothing for decades. They are a bunch of chancers who grabbed at a few chances to get into power (Austerity, Brexit) but that's all they are and all they have.
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So that was another eventfull day. I'm not surprised, my sister, who knew her did warn me long before she was elected, that Truss was a completely innapropriate choice. I told you so.
She will be gone very soon I think.
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Anybody wondering what Jeremy Hunt will be like as chancellor?
Google - Jermy Hunt tax evasion - and you might get some idea. Another dodgy Tory in a position of power.
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Anybody wondering what Jeremy Hunt will be like as chancellor?
Google - Jermy Hunt tax evasion - and you might get some idea. Another dodgy Tory in a position of power.
Hunt campained for corporation tax to be cut to a lower level than Kwarteng was prepared to go...
Lower taxes are fine if we can afford it but with high energy prices weighing down on the nation we cannot afford it.
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Rachel Reeves is talking about the need for economic growth too and actually supporting quite a lot of Truss tax cutting measures...
It's a bit naive. The Labour Party should be warning the European economy is under huge pressure from Putin. They can't offer the growth Truss promises but they can do their level best to nurse the economy through another crisis.
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Genuine question, mainly for a bit of fun.
Could Boris actually be brought back here? Is it beyond the realms of possibility, with the way this lot are performing?
Quite possibly .
Remember Blackadder 3 when he said to Prince George and Baldrick [after beind sacked I think] "you wont last 10 minutes without me ".
Mayhem ensued and he came back in and said something like 9 mins 50 seconds - see told you !
Thats what Pinocchio might be thinking right now
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Tyke.
The Tories have nothing to sort themselves out over. They are utterly bereft of any intellectual underpinning political philosophy. They have stood for nothing for decades. They are a bunch of chancers who grabbed at a few chances to get into power (Austerity, Brexit) but that's all they are and all they have.
Yeh because The Labour Party is a real ideas machine isn't it Billy ?
I sincerely hope you aren't sticking up your nose the same substance Syd does if you think the Labour cavalry are on the horizon sat on white horses ready to save the day .
Labour will completely fall their asses Billy when elected to government .
Until they come with a way to tax the wealth in this country and put that money back in to the country you may as well chalk feck it on it .
That's the only way for this country to gets its economic mojo back and that's whether it's in the EU or not .
The Tories ain't going there and neither will Labour .
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RD.
Strong growth is desperately needed on our economy. We've now had 14 years of sub-optimal growth and we have to kick out of it.
There's nothing at all wrong with that as an aim. The problem with Truss is that no-one outside Minford's cabal of crank economists believes that her approach will work.
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Rumours that far more than the required 56 letters of No Confidence have been submitted to Graham Brady. Current Tory rules state a No Confidence vote cannot be held until at least 12 months after the election of a leader.
Brady is out of the country at the moment - back on Monday. Should be an 'interesting' week next week.
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Tyke.
It's sad to see how your prejudices make you blind to people who are basically on your side.
Labour has stuck to broadly Keynesian orthodox economic policy for 30 years now. It's a central tenet of Labour's, not least because it works. Used sensibly, it gives long term, stable growth and smooths out the worst of recessions. It's not flashy or sexy, but it does what you want Govt to do - give you a general, steady upwards trajectory to living standards. Even Corbyn basically bought into that.
That's the sort of thinking that is absent at the heart of modern Conservativism. They don't know what they believe, so they grab at batshit ideas like Expansionary Fiscal Contraction. Like Brexit somehow setting us up as a dynamic, free economy. Like the current Laffer Curve/trickle down b*llocks.
Then there's Labour's vision of I vesting in the Green Agenda to bring decent, skilled jobs to the population.
It's all out there if you drop your prejudices and have a look.
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Rumours that far more than the required 56 letters of No Confidence have been submitted to Graham Brady. Current Tory rules state a No Confidence vote cannot be held until at least 12 months after the election of a leader.
Brady is out of the country at the moment - back on Monday. Should be an 'interesting' week next week.
This is the perfect time for Labour to have a vote of no confidence, trump those more than 56 letters, they are meaningless if they reject a no confidence vote
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Tyke.
It's sad to see how your prejudices make you blind to people who are basically on your side.
Labour has stuck to broadly Keynesian orthodox economic policy for 30 years now. It's a central tenet of Labour's, not least because it works. Used sensibly, it gives long term, stable growth and smooths out the worst of recessions. It's not flashy or sexy, but it does what you want Govt to do - give you a general, steady upwards trajectory to living standards. Even Corbyn basically bought into that.
That's the sort of thinking that is absent at the heart of modern Conservativism. They don't know what they believe, so they grab at batshit ideas like Expansionary Fiscal Contraction. Like Brexit somehow setting us up as a dynamic, free economy. Like the current Laffer Curve/trickle down b*llocks.
Then there's Labour's vision of I vesting in the Green Agenda to bring decent, skilled jobs to the population.
It's all out there if you drop your prejudices and have a look.
They aren't prejudice , I've seen the Green Energy and ok it sounds fine but short of detail on how it's going to be financed .
The Labour Party suffers from the same disease the Tories do , they have almost no talent within their ranks , some decent people I'll give you that but that's not the same as talent .
Both party's have had their day Billy and to be honest I think the vast majority of the people in this country would tell you the same thing .
They are completely turned off by politicians , the sad part about this and to be honest it's totally down to the politicians in this country is that most people's bills and mortgages are rising rapidly but millions don't know why .
That's how turned off they are .
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RD.
Strong growth is desperately needed on our economy. We've now had 14 years of sub-optimal growth and we have to kick out of it.
There's nothing at all wrong with that as an aim. The problem with Truss is that no-one outside Minford's cabal of crank economists believes that her approach will work.
I do not believe any approach will work whilst gas prices are so high. It's a massive tax on production.
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Im just gobsmacked that the tories voted for this crazy woman to be their leader. I dont like Sunak but surely he would have been the sensible choice.
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
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And the cheapest energy atm is solar, so try to why ban them on in areas where they can be deployed massively, unless of course it could be political.
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And the cheapest energy atm is solar, so try to why ban them on in areas where they can be deployed massively, unless of course it could be political.
This is true. Perhaps why at the moment the member for the 19th centuary has had a massive conversion to it.
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
The Labour Party needs to solve this riddle if it wants to govern and leave its mark on the country with a sustained period in office .
A sustained period in office that dictates to the Tory opposition much in the same way Thatcherism had its grip on New Labour .
Back to the riddle .
The government created £450bn to fight covid 19 , that works out at £10k per person in the UK .
The vast majority of that money ended up with already massively wealthy people , they probably took all of it .
Where's the taxation for the government to recover it ?
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Unconfirmed so please don't shoot the messenger .
Just seen a report saying Truss has taken Home Secretary Braverman out of the Immigration policy decision making .
Make of that what you will if true .
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Taking Braverman out of any decision making whatsoever is only a positive thing. The woman is borderline psychotic.
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Taking Braverman out of any decision making whatsoever is only a positive thing. The woman is borderline psychotic.
Probs being promoted.
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
Fusion is the power society desperately, desperately needs. Sort that out and the future becomes like Star Trek. We just need those dilithium crystals. Where is Scotty when you need him?
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
Fusion is the power society desperately, desperately needs. Sort that out and the future becomes like Star Trek. We just need those dilithium crystals. Where is Scotty when you need him?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60312633
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
Fusion is the power society desperately, desperately needs. Sort that out and the future becomes like Star Trek. We just need those dilithium crystals. Where is Scotty when you need him?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60312633
Exciting potential but we need affordable energy right now.
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Anyway BST I reckon we are united in recognising that really at heart this is a problem of science and engineering. If Truss wants her growth, growth, growth it isn't going to come by magic. It's not about Austrian text books, or cheap fixes. It means hard investment and innovation in real stuff with an eye to the future.
I hope the Labour Party grasps this.
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Even Kwazi is saying she should go in The Times this morning.
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J Hunt presents as a traditional tory but suffered from attention deficit in portfolio, didn't do the basic stuff right in health, didn't declare interest in property and as a businessman has a litany of breaches that would finish most people off.
Even so, why would you attach oneself to a proven nutjob where you know it's going to end in tears.
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Despite the U turns and the sacking of the chancellor , new chancellor Hunt still needs to find £40bn to balance the books and satisfy the financial markets .
There is absolutely no way Truss along with the man who trashed the NHS aren't going down the austerity pie route despite what Truss says which is proved to be a load of baloney anyway .
This is what I mean about no matter which move the Tories make they are fecked because with austerity pie back on the menu the red wall Tories will be sharpening their knives .
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He was right the first time wasn't he
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://youtu.be/-JpNravrwZc
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Despite the U turns and the sacking of the chancellor , new chancellor Hunt still needs to find £40bn to balance the books and satisfy the financial markets .
There is absolutely no way Truss along with the man who trashed the NHS aren't going down the austerity pie route despite what Truss says which is proved to be a load of baloney anyway .
This is what I mean about no matter which move the Tories make they are fecked because with austerity pie back on the menu the red wall Tories will be sharpening their knives .
Famous last words!!!
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Even Kwazi is saying she should go in The Times this morning.
TT, is there a typo in your post.
Did you mean The Thames ?
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You cannot have economic growth without affordable energy. It moves in lockstep. As an economy grows it uses energy.
Economists get bound up in the movement of money. They should focus on energy. Money is largely just a token that represents energy.
We can have cheap energy. We just need to invest in the necessary infrastructure. Solar and wind are cheap as chips these days and will only get cheaper. Proper investment in that is precisely the way to spur growth. And it doesn't spook the markets because it is borrowing for capital investment, not for current spending (take note Tyke).
And further downstream, there's finally the real prospect of fusion power by the second half of the century.
The Labour Party needs to solve this riddle if it wants to govern and leave its mark on the country with a sustained period in office .
A sustained period in office that dictates to the Tory opposition much in the same way Thatcherism had its grip on New Labour .
Which is actually pretty much what Labour have been saying and advocating.
Starmer presented his Green Prosperity Plan to Conference the other week:
Insulate 19 million homes, increase/build a range of energy sources; onshore and offshore wind capacity, solar, wind tidal, hydrogen and nuclear power sources to have 100% clean power by 2030, with a state owned power supply company, private companies and investment and a national infrastructre bank.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1575071424821313538
Whilst there is still a push among the membership and go further and get him to initiiate all the clauses of Corbyns' Green New Deal:
https://www.labourgnd.uk/
The problem isn't that Labour dont have ideas on how to grow the economy with cheaper, renewable power - it's getting them heard in the wider public among this current chaos.
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It's truly staggering, what's happened in the past 24 hours. Absolutely unprecedented in our political history.
A PM in post for not yet 6 weeks has basically given up. You could see it in her face and hear it in her voice in the press conf yesterday.
Listening to Hunt on the radio this morning it's clear that he's now in charge. He's the de facto PM.
He says he's been given a "clean slate" to re-work the Budget from scratch.
Just stop a moment and read that again.
A brand new PM who roamed the country over the summer telling golf club bores and swivel eyed right wing Tory loons that she was going to turbocharge the economy with far right policies has binned the lot. She's told someone who was trounced in the leadership campaign to sort it out however he likes.
Let's be right. Hunt has been at absolute best a middling minister. But the Tories are so crackpot these days, it's like a saviour taking over.
It feels like a grown up coming home after leaving the teenagers in charge over the summer, to find the telly out the window, the oven left on 24 hours a day, the curtains on fire and the fridge sold off to pay for weed. It's almost a relief when a grown up comes back and starts clearing the shite up.
What an utter, utter f**king disaster.
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It's got echoes of Suez, where Anthony Eden cracked under the strain and was pouring speed down his neck to keep going. Then Macmillan stepped in and took over as de facto PM while they shoved Eden off to the Caribbean for 6 weeks to recover.
My bet is, if she has any sense of self awareness and the enormity of the f**k up she's caused, Truss will be curled up crying in a corner and won't be seen for days while Hunt gets on with the job.
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If there's one possible silver lining here, it's that we might, collectively as a nation, stop listening to far right gobshites like these, who cheered us into embracing Brexit, Johnson and Truss.
https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1581005091930505218?s=20&t=wDwzc8A-I5lFkvrCi6GOCg
They are either headbangers, or genuine enemy agents. They have done untold damage to this great country. Time to tell them to belt up and f**k off.
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Chunt better raid the Profits of the power companies and get it spent now so that the next Cough Cough! Government hasn't got the usual soft financial cushion to flatten!
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On current trend, the climate change to at least 1.5% increase will be passed by 2029.
That means crop failures, drought and climate refugees on the move to survive.
So in terms of energy, the transition needs to be rapid and effective.
There is no chance at all of fusion, or small modular nuclear playing any role on that timeline.
The cost of conventional nuclear is beyond the interest of commercial interests, and is unlikely within 15 years minimum.
It is going to be solar and wind, with storage, other tech playing a niche role.
Loony Truss seems to think solar farms are in competition with agriculture. Aside from the fact that marginal land is often chosen, it is perfectly possible to combine solar with agri production.
The field of agrivoltaics is growing, allowing use of land between raised panels on a swivel frame.
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He was right the first time wasn't he
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://youtu.be/-JpNravrwZc
There's just something about Jeremy Hunt and the R4 today programme.
Listen from1:30:15 here. Priceless!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001d4mh
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Just when you think the absolute insanity of this lot has reached the end..
https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfDaveAndress/status/1581232896722903040
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You would think the the end is nigh for Coffey whom appears to have admitted illegally giving prescription medicine to friends.
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I've always had the impression that Coffey is a wrong un, but i would imagine anyone closely associated with Truss will be making new arrangements as we speak.
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Truss is finished, senior tories will be working out the timing and replacement, they must have had a hand in installing Hunt. The BoE will have to either make a strong statement, take action or both very early to try and stabilise the markets.
They need to get the OBR and some reputable economists to support their next moves otherwise the government is toast, if not already.
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There's two points overall that stick out.
Truss is now delivering policies she doesn't believe in and stood against. That's bonkers frankly and shouldn't be done.
The second point though is that no party has a plan to deliver what they say because none of them admit that it's very difficult to do.
We now have half the policies labour wanted. How do they then criticise it?8
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Hunt on Laura Kunessberg just now - there is going to be more austerity and I have no idea/don't care what the result of this will be or how to contain it. She just put the head of the Anti-Growth Coalition in charge.
The Bank of England doesn't trust them, the international money markets dont trust them.
If you think we are in a crises now - under this lot just wait.
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There's two points overall that stick out.
Truss is now delivering policies she doesn't believe in and stood against. That's bonkers frankly and shouldn't be done.
The second point though is that no party has a plan to deliver what they say because none of them admit that it's very difficult to do.
We now have half the policies labour wanted. How do they then criticise it?8
A government should push itself to achieve as many of its policies as it can as circumstances permit. The truss policies were always bonkers and were never going to achieve growth growth growth however they were implemented.
It's difficult to comment on which labour policies you are referring to pud, I thought they didn't have any?
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There's two points overall that stick out.
Truss is now delivering policies she doesn't believe in and stood against. That's bonkers frankly and shouldn't be done.
The second point though is that no party has a plan to deliver what they say because none of them admit that it's very difficult to do.
We now have half the policies labour wanted. How do they then criticise it?8
This has now really gone beyond the realm of making it up as you go along. How can any leader go along with a strategy that she actively campaigned against? then even worse attempting to use Hunt to implement it.
Im wondering if blokes in dark places aren't colluding to get rid of this abomination and attempt to slip the rich little fella in then they really have completely lost the plot.
Parliament needs to find a way of achieving a VONC so we can have a GE to give us someone else to moan about.
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Sounds like the civil war that kicked off in the conference has stepped up a notch.
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Not sure what planet they are on atm when Halfon thinks a nice little fireside chat will fix things, will it pay peoples bills or buy them food, pay their rent or mortgage?
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If there's one possible silver lining here, it's that we might, collectively as a nation, stop listening to far right gobshites like these, who cheered us into embracing Brexit, Johnson and Truss.
https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1581005091930505218?s=20&t=wDwzc8A-I5lFkvrCi6GOCg
They are either headbangers, or genuine enemy agents. They have done untold damage to this great country. Time to tell them to belt up and f**k off.
Here we go. Someone's collected the full set of far right w**kers' praise for the Budget.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1581323079611211776
Anyone who EVER chooses to listen to any of those Kitsons again has no excuse.
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What a complete mess!
Apparently the PM is in a state of depression and refusing to speak to her senior ministers.
Regardless of her politics and the craziness of her debunked economic strategy I can't help but have sympathy for her on a human level and concern for her mental health and general well being.
She claims she will always act in the best interest of the country. In that vain, and also in her own personal interest, she needs to be stepping aside asap.
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I have absolutely zero sympathy for her on any level.
She's wanted to get the PM post for years. Not because she had a driving philosophical vision for how to make the country a better place. Because she had a driving, selfish desire for power, coupled with a ridiculously OTT opinion of her own ability.
She's changed her political stance every step of the way to fit with the people she needed to get onside to help here with Project Truss. She has no guiding principle whatsoever, other than what helps her ambition.
She was a radical Liberal when the Tories fell apart in the 90s.
By 2010 she was a hug-a-hoodie Cameron soft-rightist.
When Remain looked like winning she was an ardent remainer.
When Leave won, she sang the praises of what fantastic opportunities it opened for Britain.
When the moderate Tories were purged and the party lurched to the far right, she led the way, suddenly found that headcase Minford as a guiding light and sold the membership a fairy story of how she'd cut taxes for them.
She hasn't got a principled bone in her body. Just the need to put Liz on top.
If she's suffering now, then frankly, tough shit. There will be millions more suffering because of the shit tip she has chucked us into. Millions with unpayable mortgages, lost jobs a d savings. If she's suffering, maybe it will serve as a warning to future Liz f**king Trusses.
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If she's suffering now, then frankly, good.
This is just the sort of divisive vindictiveness that puts people off politics and political discussion.
Assuming the PM is depressed (and why wouldn't she be?) then her well being will be of grave concern to her family. Poor mental health is a serious problem. I knew a man, a former MD of a client, whose poor business decisions effectively bankrupted his company. A few years later he took his own life. There's an obvious parallel here.
To have no sympathy for, and in fact to revel, in somebody's mental anguish, regardless of their character, past behaviour or politics is frankly pathetic.
You need to grow up man.
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This isn't a game Branton.
It's not like I'm pissed off that my kid didn't get picked for the school team and I wish the PE teacher dies horribly.
This is about the most important position in the country. Where being f**king incompetent has massive implications for millions of people.
She has cost the country tens of billions of pounds through her rank incompetence and arrogance. That will destroy lives, businesses, jobs and families throughout the country.
Her decisions.
Her policies.
Anyone who ever spent five minutes looking at her plans knew where this was going. If she didn't or didn't listen to those who did, then she deserves everything she is now going through.
People need to f**king well grow up and realise that who the PM is and what they do has massive consequences. It's not something to be aspired to by incompetent egotists like the last two we've had. If their public humiliation is what is needed to ram that message into people's heads, then so be it.
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This isn't a game Branton.
It's not like I'm pissed off that my kid didn't get picked for the school team and I wish the PE teacher dies horribly.
This is about the most important position in the country. Where being f**king incompetent has massive implications for millions of people.
She has cost the country tens of billions of pounds through her rank incompetence and arrogance. That will destroy lives, businesses, jobs and families throughout the country.
Her decisions.
Her policies.
Anyone who ever spent five minutes looking at her plans knew where this was going. If she didn't or didn't listen to those who did, then she deserves everything she is now going through.
People need to f**king well grow up and realise that who the PM is and what they do has massive consequences. It's not something to be aspired to by incompetent egotists like the last two we've had. If their public humiliation is what is needed to ram that message into people's heads, then so be it.
Absolutely 100% this.
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No Billy bad mental health and depression is not a game. The consequences can be catastrophic.
It's one thing expressing vehement opposition to a person's actions, behaviours or politics and pointing out the potentially dire consequences of them.
It's quite another on hearing of their mental suffering to pronounce pleasure at their personal anguish on the basis that you disagree with their actions, behaviour and politics.
There are things called decency and compassion even towards opponents. It's about being human.
Are you wishing Liz Truss dies horribly then like your fictitious PE teacher?
Or more sensibly let's say a protestor had physically attacked the PM on the basis of her policies and she'd sustained not a mental injury but a physical one. Say a broken leg. Would you have any sympathy for her on a human level then I wonder?
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Truss appointed as chancellor someone who cut funding for mental health services across the country.
She appointed as deputy PM someone who cut PIP funding and made it more difficult for people with mental health problems (and their careers) to claim the benefits to which they are entitled - and cut the level of that funding to leave many of them in poverty.
Truss herself has always voted for these cuts. I would be very cautious about where I gave my sympathy to Liz Truss and mental health issues. She has never shown any to anyone - exactly the opposite.
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This isn't a game Branton.
It's not like I'm pissed off that my kid didn't get picked for the school team and I wish the PE teacher dies horribly.
This is about the most important position in the country. Where being f**king incompetent has massive implications for millions of people.
She has cost the country tens of billions of pounds through her rank incompetence and arrogance. That will destroy lives, businesses, jobs and families throughout the country.
Her decisions.
Her policies.
Anyone who ever spent five minutes looking at her plans knew where this was going. If she didn't or didn't listen to those who did, then she deserves everything she is now going through.
People need to f**king well grow up and realise that who the PM is and what they do has massive consequences. It's not something to be aspired to by incompetent egotists like the last two we've had. If their public humiliation is what is needed to ram that message into people's heads, then so be it.
Nailed it William .
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Truss appointed as chancellor someone who cut funding for mental health services across the country.
She appointed as deputy PM someone who cut PIP funding and made it more difficult for people with mental health problems (and their careers) to claim the benefits to which they are entitled - and cut the level of that funding to leave many of them in poverty.
Truss herself has always voted for these cuts. I would be very cautious about where I gave my sympathy to Liz Truss and mental health issues. She has never shown any to anyone - exactly the opposite.
No Billy bad mental health and depression is not a game. The consequences can be catastrophic.
It's one thing expressing vehement opposition to a person's actions, behaviours or politics and pointing out the potentially dire consequences of them.
It's quite another on hearing of their mental suffering to pronounce pleasure at their personal anguish on the basis that you disagree with their actions, behaviour and politics.
There are things called decency and compassion even towards opponents. It's about being human.
Are you wishing Liz Truss dies horribly then like your fictitious PE teacher?
Or more sensibly let's say a protestor had physically attacked the PM on the basis of her policies and she'd sustained not a mental injury but a physical one. Say a broken leg. Would you have any sympathy for her on a huNo Billy bad mental health and depression is not a game. The consequences can be catastrophic.
It's one thing expressing vehement opposition to a person's actions, behaviours or politics and pointing out the potentially dire consequences of them.
It's quite another on hearing of their mental suffering to pronounce pleasure at their personal anguish on the basis that you disagree with their actions, behaviour and politics.
There are things called decency and compassion even towards opponents. It's about being human.
Are you wishing Liz Truss dies horribly then like your fictitious PE teacher?
Or more sensibly let's say a protestor had physically attacked the PM on the basis of her policies and she'd sustained not a mental injury but a physical one. Say a broken leg. Would you have any sympathy for her on a human level then I wonder?
You reap as you sow, any management job has pressure ask GM ! Prime minister is a job like no other and to behave as she has in taking a job she's under qualified for has had repercussions we will be recovering from for years , so yes if this has affected her then that's par for course and others should be mindful
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Wind your neck in Branton.
I'm not wishing illness or death on Truss. I'm not revelling in watching her unravelling. I don't want anyone to assault her. You are making a ridiculous extrapolation of what I've said. Honestly, I cannot believe I'm needing to say this but y'know...this place sometimes.
What I'm saying is that I have zero sympathy for her predicament. None whatsoever.
The cause of her apparent emotional collapse isn't the fact that she's a fundamentally sound politician who had been bested by circumstances.
It is that reality has smashed her in the face and screamed at her "You are not competent to do this job". Anyone who ever gave her a second glance knew that to be the case. It's frankly frightening that someone so utterly unsuited to the role even made the long list. The correct response her is not to say "never mind, you did your best." It's to make sure anyone else who even dreams of becoming PM searches their heart and soul to decide if they are really up to it.
Let me give you an alternative. Closest one we have to this f**king mess.
In 1955, Anthony Eden finally became PM after many years of desperately wanting the job.
The following year, he took us into an illegal war, against strong advice from colleagues and from the US.
The USA flayed us alive with economic sanctions. We gave in and withdrew. That humiliation is seen by historians as the moment that Britain lost its claim to be a Great Power.
Eden had a nervous breakdown.
Was the correct response to that to put an arm round him and say "you did your best old chap"? Or was it to grimly hold him up as an example to future PMs?
I know where I stand on that one.
The analogy isn't perfect. None ever is. But it's close enough.
An egotistical, arrogant power seeker. Deciding on an insane policy. Ignoring all advice that it was madness. Then emotionally collapsing when the inevitable came.
Truss's idiocy has massively ramped up our interest rates because the money markets are demanding a Moron Premium from a country that could lose its senses on this scale. That is going to mean families losing their houses. Companies going out of business.
I'll save my sympathy for them, not for the egotistical power seeker who has unleashed this disaster.
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Billy
To be clear I have zero sympathy for her political predicament - for the same reasons you make.
I'm saying that on hearing of her depression that I can't help but have sympathy for her on a human level and concern for her mental health and general well being.
That is a different thing entirely.
Your immediate response to me stating this was "If she's suffering now, then frankly, good."
Highlighting your immaturity and basic lack of compassion and common decency.
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Branton
So you'd have had sympathy for Eden and his emotional collapse after he planned an illegal war which dragged Britain's reputation through the mud?
You have totally ignored my argument that there are situations were the personal failings of senior politicians are so manifest and the consequences so disastrous, that they have to go through public humiliation to warn others.
Anyone who is not steeled for that should never get close to power. If Liz Truss hasn't understood this and had had no understanding of her own obvious limitations, then I do have sympathy for her because she would clearly have a very serious personality disorder.
But it doesn't change the fact that there has to be a way of warning off rank incompetents from seeking high power. That is what I meant when I said "if she's suffering then good". Not because if hatred for her personally. Because no-one as shockingly bad as her should ever get close to No10 again.
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I'd have sympathy for him on a human level due to his emotional collapse. Of course I would.
I don't have any sympathy with his actions or for him losing his position.
These are 2 separate things. As they are with Truss.
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I'd have sympathy for him on a human level due to his emotional collapse. Of course I would.
I don't have any sympathy with his actions or for him losing his position.
These are 2 separate things. As they are with Truss.
Then with respect, you are not getting my point.
Some politicians fail so grossly (and due to the failings of their own personality, not their political beliefs) and the consequences are so disastrous, that there has to be a warning for posterity.
I'll say again. Truss's depression, if that's what it is, has not been brought on by a failure caused by overwhelming external odds.
It's come about because she has yearned for this job and she is f**king useless at it. Her very public humiliation is part of the nation's self-defence mechanism that will make it less likely that someone equally as f**king useless will even aspire to this position in future.
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If there's one possible silver lining here, it's that we might, collectively as a nation, stop listening to far right gobshites like these, who cheered us into embracing Brexit, Johnson and Truss.
https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1581005091930505218?s=20&t=wDwzc8A-I5lFkvrCi6GOCg
They are either headbangers, or genuine enemy agents. They have done untold damage to this great country. Time to tell them to belt up and f**k off.
Here we go. Someone's collected the full set of far right w**kers' praise for the Budget.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1581323079611211776
Anyone who EVER chooses to listen to any of those Kitsons again has no excuse.
While I agree that Truss is a disaster I find it ironic that bst has highlighted a tweet which starts “People try to tell you what to think every day”.
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Well I've absolutely no sympathy or compassion for the stupid women even if they cart her off to an asylum in a straight jacket .
Totally self inflicted , the people lining up to tell her and her fruitcake chancellor they'd tank the economy was a mile long .
This women has no empathy or is even sorry for the decisions she's made or signed off .
Absolutely no empathy for homeowners , people with pensions or the vast majority of us struggling to pay our bills .
The only reason she's sat sobbing tonight in a dark room is for herself and not the country or it's people .
Deal with it you hideous woman .
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In simple terms, being PM is not a job you approach with the attitude "Well I'll give it a go, listen to no-one and insist that I'm right, and if I make a massive f**k up of it and seriously damage the country, I'll not worry about it too much."
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I'd have sympathy for him on a human level due to his emotional collapse. Of course I would.
I don't have any sympathy with his actions or for him losing his position.
These are 2 separate things. As they are with Truss.
Then with respect, you are not getting my point.
Some politicians fail so grossly (and due to the failings of their own personality, not their political beliefs) and the consequences are so disastrous, that there has to be a warning for posterity.
Yes true but that shouldn't prevent us as decent members of the human race from having sympathy for the personal anguish this visits upon them, regardless of whether or how much we agreed or disagreed with their actions or their politics.
It's certainly no reason for rejoicing in their personal predicament either.
You're missing my point - given I posted first on this issue. I don't have sympathy for what Truss has done or the political position she finds herself in but have sympathy and concern for her mental well being. As I would for anyone suffering bad mental health regardless of who they are or what they've done.
You on the other hand "have absolutely zero sympathy for her on any level" in the face of hearing of her apparent depression.
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As I said I've no sympathy or compassion for the stupid women .
I have compassion and sympathy in bucket loads for people who are victims of this world .
Zilch for those who cause it .
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1) This is not about any political disagreement. Can we clear that up straightaway, because I'm not having that slur left to stand.
2) As I've said several times, the cause of the apparent depression is her own overwhelming arrogance and ambition, married with an equal and opposite lack of basic ability. I'm f**ked if I'm going to waste my own emotional energy with concern for someone in that situation, especially when the consequence of her failings are going to be horrific for millions of people.
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Billy
No it's absolutely not about political disagreements. I agree with you, and practically everyone else on here, on the politics of this. My last post was speaking in general terms.
This is about how decent we are as human beings.
It's about whether we have the maturity to forgive people for their errors and their human failings, and forgive them for the consequences such errors and failings have wrought on others, in order to find compassion and sympathy for them in their own sufferings.
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If Truss were to resign tomorrow as PM and an MP, which she should be doing if she has serious mental health issues, she is not making decisions in the best interests of the country or her constituents - exactly the opposite, her decisions are making the problems of the country into a crises - then I would have great sympathy for her.
But she wont. So I have only sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been made miserable and more difficut by the cruel choices and decisions she and her party have made in these past 12 years.
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Branton, questioning and mocking a person’s mental state is a card that Billy often plays. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Prime Minister or a poster on a fourth division off topic forum - if you disagree with him for long enough then eventually, he will question your mental health, and take great delight in doing so.
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And so it begins.
Just watched Crispin Blunt on the Andrew Neil show call for her to go. Now two more MP's have also gone public saying that's it. Matter of days now I should think.
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In simple terms, being PM is not a job you approach with the attitude "Well I'll give it a go, listen to no-one and insist that I'm right, and if I make a massive f**k up of it and seriously damage the country, I'll not worry about it too much."
As long as in F@#king it up I make my mates a few millions in doing so
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Billy
No it's absolutely not about political disagreements. I agree with you, and practically everyone else on here, on the politics of this. My last post was speaking in general terms.
This is about how decent we are as human beings.
It's about whether we have the maturity to forgive people for their errors and their human failings, and forgive them for the consequences such errors and failings have wrought on others, in order to find compassion and sympathy for them in their own sufferings.
Branton
Genuine question. Where do you draw the line?
If Putin cries himself to sleep every night, does your heart go out to him?
I ask because I've had very close contact with someone whose actions deeply f**ked up a number of people and who had a breakdown when his lies and deceit were smoked out. I have never found it in myself to forgive or find compassion for that person, not least because they never faced up to what they had done. I DID spend many years picking up the pieces that he had smashed and looking after the people he had f**ked over. But I never lost a moment's sleep over him.
Does that make me a nasty person?
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Yes
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And so it begins.
Just watched Crispin Blunt on the Andrew Neil show call for her to go. Now two more MP's have also gone public saying that's it. Matter of days now I should think.
Latest polling if there was a GE tomorrow .
Labour 411 seats
Tories 137
Gone by Tuesday in my opinion , if the markets are still volatile at the close of business tomorrow evening she's gone before the 6pm News .
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We can only hope
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I wonder if Coffey has any antidepressants in her bag?
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And so it begins.
Just watched Crispin Blunt on the Andrew Neil show call for her to go. Now two more MP's have also gone public saying that's it. Matter of days now I should think.
Latest polling if there was a GE tomorrow .
Labour 411 seats
Tories 137
Gone by Tuesday in my opinion , if the markets are still volatile at the close of business tomorrow evening she's gone before the 6pm News .
The only question is who will replace her?
If they can agree on a candidate to take over quickly - yes I make you right. If they can't, then it will be a few more days until they work out how/who they are going to replace her with.
That's all that is keeping her in place now imho.
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And so it begins.
Just watched Crispin Blunt on the Andrew Neil show call for her to go. Now two more MP's have also gone public saying that's it. Matter of days now I should think.
Latest polling if there was a GE tomorrow .
Labour 411 seats
Tories 137
Gone by Tuesday in my opinion , if the markets are still volatile at the close of business tomorrow evening she's gone before the 6pm News .
The only question is who will replace her?
If they can agree on a candidate to take over quickly - yes I make you right. If they can't, then it will be a few more days until they work out how/who they are going to replace her with.
That's all that is keeping her in place now imho.
There's talk of Mourdant and Sunak but Mourdant had a disaster when campaigning for the Tory leadership , the Johnson mob hate Sunak for sticking the knife in Johnson's back .
Ben Wallace possibly .
No matter what 3 PM's in a single parliamentary term is electoral disaster .
If this is a coronation because God forbid they can't go down another leadership contest the pressure will increase for a GE .
I know you disagree with my take on that but I think it's inevitable Wilts .
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I wonder if Coffey has any antidepressants in her bag?
Aye she's on her way to Chequers to give em Truss .
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Here's a few clues as to why the UK is where it is .........
''The floundering of GB News and Talk TV reveals a dark truth about the mainstream media''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/16/gb-news-talk-tv-mainstream-media-channels
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According to a poll conducted two weeks ago the Tories who will lose their seats include , Rees - Mogg , Boris Johnson , Coffey , Jeremy Hunt and Simon Clarke .
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And so it begins.
Just watched Crispin Blunt on the Andrew Neil show call for her to go. Now two more MP's have also gone public saying that's it. Matter of days now I should think.
Latest polling if there was a GE tomorrow .
Labour 411 seats
Tories 137
Gone by Tuesday in my opinion , if the markets are still volatile at the close of business tomorrow evening she's gone before the 6pm News .
The only question is who will replace her?
If they can agree on a candidate to take over quickly - yes I make you right. If they can't, then it will be a few more days until they work out how/who they are going to replace her with.
That's all that is keeping her in place now imho.
There's talk of Mourdant and Sunak but Mourdant had a disaster when campaigning for the Tory leadership , the Johnson mob hate Sunak for sticking the knife in Johnson's back .
Ben Wallace possibly .
No matter what 3 PM's in a single parliamentary term is electoral disaster .
If this is a coronation because God forbid they can't go down another leadership contest the pressure will increase for a GE .
I know you disagree with my take on that but I think it's inevitable Wilts .
I hope you are right tyke but I just can't see it. I can't see the coule of hundred Tory MP's predicited to be kicked out at a GE voting to loose £160k + expenses over the next two years. The majority of Tories have always put their own interests above the interests of the country - I just can't see that changing now.
Johnson will want another go and now Hunt is defacto PM he will want it too - to put on your list.
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Well
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Hunt is to make a statement in the HoC at 11am today.
Will Truss turn up? I doubt it.
I would not be surprised if she ‘gets’ Covid to give herself a bit of space and time.
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No Minister wants to do the broadcast rounds this morning on behalf of Thick Lizzy
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1581895937336967169?s=61&t=pYEEoGnSj7WCpnhSXMvTfQ
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Well, now we know why Kwarteng refused to publish the OBR report on his Budget.
Apparently it would have said that the deficit was about £70bn after Kwarteng's tax cuts.
He and Truss must have been utterly insane to go for £50bn of tax cuts in those circumstances. No bloody wonder the gilts market went into meltdown.
Minford is behind all of this, the absolute nutcase. He should be arrested on sight if he ever looks like influencing another politician. The man is a menace to the country.
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Good to see that one thing the Tories aren't reversing is the abolishment of the cap on Banker's Bonuses.
Typical Tory policy, look after the rich and f@ck the poor.
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Fundamentally Truss should resign there's no way she can go forward saying that everything she pledged is impossible. Crazy.
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Jesus. How will Truss have the nerve to even show up in Parliament after Hunt's briefing???
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Energy bills support scheme is only until April now, not the two years it was supposed to run
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Energy bills support scheme is only until April now, not the two years it was supposed to run
I mean that's not surprising. It's a significanct % of that previous package. But the energy market will be somewhat different by then also.
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Energy bills support scheme is only until April now, not the two years it was supposed to run
Kuenssberg will be having a tizzy. Her attack line on Labour recently has been " You're only protecting energy prices for consumers for 6 months. Nah, nah, boo."
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But seriously, what an absolute f**k up this last month has been.
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I can't stop thinking about Truss.
Surely she must have some self respect and just resign?
Or does the sense of self preservation overtake that?
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PINO.
Prime minister In Name Only.
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She has two options, resign in disgrace or call a general election
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Chris Mason BBC
''"If polling suggests an alternative leader will lose fewer seats than she will, then she's had it," one MP not prone to exaggeration or shouting their mouth off tells me.
"Not many of us buy the idea that another leadership change is the worst case scenario. Nothing can be worse than where we are already," they said, adding "you can't sack your closest ally for carrying out your orders and call it pragmatism."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63285226
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PINO.
Prime minister In Name Only.
I thought this was a call to start drinking NR!!
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‘Corbynites’ have much to answer for.
They gave Bozo a 60 seat majority & what followed was inevitable.
The longer Truss is in No.10 the quicker that 60 seat majority evaporates & turns in Labours favour.
Just keep playing with a ‘straight bat’ Kier & it’s curtains for the Tories come the GE.
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We all saw in the 'Press Conference' after she sacked Kamikwasi, that she's on the edge mentally.
How can she be looking forward to PMQ's when she'll have to answer 6 questions from Starmer alone.
She has lost all credibility as a politician.
I wonder if Shell would give her her old job back? She's saved them billions by not implementing a Windfall tax on their excess profits.
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https://twitter.com/GwynneMP/status/1581965504557699072?s=20&t=CkpgEy-FFnE6Y5eSAQeT4Q
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This is unhinged.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1581970922616999939
Trying to blather through this with "We were right but...global conditions are getting worse."
She's trying to stay in post isn't she?
Jesus wept, has the woman no sense of self awareness at all?
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That is simply bizarre. There is no other word for it.
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That is simply bizarre. There is no other word for it.
This is what gets me.
She says it's all because "global economic conditions are worsening" that she's had to make changes.
Here's a thing though.
Is there any other country in the world whose Finance Dept had to put out a note at 6am this morning saying there'd be an emergency statement today to stop the gilt markets collapsing?
It's like she has zero comprehension of how serious this is. Or she thinks people are so f**king stupid, they'll swallow this bullshit.
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Will she turn up for Starmer's urgent question on the Economy before Hunt's statement?
I seriously doubt it
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No Minister wants to do the broadcast rounds this morning on behalf of Thick Lizzy
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1581895937336967169?s=61&t=pYEEoGnSj7WCpnhSXMvTfQ
Probably because they've no idea what they're going to be expected to be saying by the end of the day.
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I heard a story this morning that the mini budget may have been a deliberate trashing designed to deliberately tank the £ so the Tory hedge fund pals could make a killing… and then lose the next GE deliberately. Labour will then never be able to undo the damage quick enough, so the Tories and their 'press' supporters would soon start blaming Labour for the mess. That’s what happens every time.
Hardly likely one would think. But the next general election has been a good one to lose for over a year now and the depths of infamy of some of those secretive right wing think tanks has never yet been plumbed...
Still, the Colombian peso as I write is now at 5304. That's the highest, except for one brief occasion, in the last 2 years. Last week it was 4800. The ups and downs of a nervous market... Shame I bought a few grand at 5100!
Lol. There's enough pesos sat in my wardrobe to make me a multi multi millionaire!
BobG
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I heard a story this morning that the mini budget may have been a deliberate trashing designed to deliberately tank the £ so the Tory hedge fund pals could make a killing… and then lose the next GE deliberately. Labour will then never be able to undo the damage quick enough, so the Tories and their 'press' supporters would soon start blaming Labour for the mess. That’s what happens every time.
Hardly likely one would think. But the next general election has been a good one to lose for over a year now and the depths of infamy of some of those secretive right wing think tanks has never yet been plumbed...
BobG
A conspiracy theory?
You've been exposed to Panda Bear too long lol
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Will she turn up for Starmer's urgent question on the Economy before Hunt's statement?
I seriously doubt it
I can answer my own question.
She will not, she is sending Mordaunt instead.
Be interesting to see what, if any, backing Mordaunt gives to Truss.
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I don't think you will find, anywhere, even a hint I believe the theory. Maybe I should have been much more explicit for you. The point is that stories like these are starting to circulate. And sone people will find grounds to wonder. Stuff like this will be poison to the Tory party. Once the mood swings, it is impossible to reverse without a lot of time and a lot of change. Remember the Labour party always spends lots? Or the Tories are prudent with money? Surely you can draw the appropriate conclusions from what is an entirely new take on the Tory world? It is entirely irrelevant whether it is true or not. The point is stories like these are now out there. That is revolutionary!
BobG
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Mordaunt did a decent job at the dispatch box today. I wonder if the ghost of Jim Bowen is saying to the swivel eyed loons and golf club bores that make up the Tory party membership "Look at what you could have won"?
Truss beat Mordaunt, Hunt and Sunak only a few weeks ago.
Now Mordaunt has to stand in for her, while Hunt unravels her mess by reverting to Sunak's policies.
This is a humiliation for the country on a scale that will have historians debating it in 200 years.
Max Hastings once said that if the UK ever elected Johnson as PM, it would have lost all claims on being a serious nation. Turns out Johnson was just the support act for the real disaster. It's a f**king long way back from here to regain international credibility.
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Will she turn up for Starmer's urgent question on the Economy before Hunt's statement?
I seriously doubt it
I can answer my own question.
She will not, she is sending Mordaunt instead.
Be interesting to see what, if any, backing Mordaunt gives to Truss.
Apparently she has 'a very good (unspecified) reason she can't be there'.
This has all the hallmarks of the start of an Eden/Macmillan 'illness' departure.
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If she is so rattled that she cannot come to the House for this debate, she HAS to be removed immediately.
Imagine having her in charge if Putin ups the ante? Actually don't. It is too frightening.
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Mordaunt did a decent job at the dispatch box today. I wonder if the ghost of Jim Bowen is saying to the swivel eyed loons and golf club bores that make up the Tory party membership "Look at what you could have won"?
Truss beat Mordaunt, Hunt and Sunak only a few weeks ago.
Now Mordaunt has to stand in for her, while Hunt unravels her mess by reverting to Sunak's policies.
This is a humiliation for the country on a scale that will have historians debating it in 200 years.
Max Hastings once said that if the UK ever elected Johnson as PM, it would have lost all claims on being a serious nation. Turns out Johnson was just the support act for the real disaster. It's a f**king long way back from here to regain international credibility.
Remember the members only got a choice of two. It's like the opposite of Corbyn isn't it who made it to labour members more by chance then won it. Sunak was the MPs favourite remember.
She has no power she'll be gone soon.
Two strategies for the Tories.
1. Put someone in to deliver loads in the next year to give them a fighting chance (unlikely).
2. Put someone in, call a GE, lose it then see if labour can achieve anything now we've seen they can't borrow more. This is a problem for labour, their options are limited but will have to include tax rises at the higher rates I suspect.
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'This Government pays it's way'.
'We took over in 2010 when there was no money left'.
Get ready to hear these 2 churned out from the Tory benches from now till the Election.
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I fundamentally disagree with Hunt's politics on many points.
But Christ, what a relief to hear a grown up just now, rather than the batshittery that Kwarteng and Truss have been spouting for the past month. You can have a sensible disagreement on issues where at least the basic tenet are established. You can't argue with people who deny the principles of basic logic. With Hunt, it felt like finally a grown up is back in charge, for all his faults.
Truss, sat at the side of him, looked like she'd been tranquilized. Barely a movement from her. Barely a reaction. Not a word to anyone. Like I said before, this is very serious. She has to be replaced before there are any more major national decisions to be made.
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If she is so rattled that she cannot come to the House for this debate, she HAS to be removed immediately.
Imagine having her in charge if Putin ups the ante? Actually don't. It is too frightening.
Thanks for imagining all the scary stuff so we don’t have to, Billy.
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Truss will be out in the next 48 hours.
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‘Corbynites’ have much to answer for.
They gave Bozo a 60 seat majority & what followed was inevitable.
The longer Truss is in No.10 the quicker that 60 seat majority evaporates & turns in Labours favour.
Just keep playing with a ‘straight bat’ Kier & it’s curtains for the Tories come the GE.
I wondered how long it would take for Corbyn to get the blame .
Well done .
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No. 10 spokesperson now saying the reason the PM wasn’t at the urgent question is that she was at a pre planned meeting with Graham Brady, only Graham Brady was in the Chamber for the urgent question. She than sat there for half an hour like a hostage awaiting her fate
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Was Isaac Hunt trying to come over as an Elder Statesman?
TBF ( That's short for to be fair), compared to the absolute f#ckwittery That's been going on, he actually did sound like a Mester. Even if I don't like him or his party
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Can't be bothered to check if this has already been posted but quick update & further info on Liz Truss and mental health:
Interview on the Mens' Health podcast: How Truss laughed when she sacked Jonny Mercer because she didn't share his passion for the mental health of ex-service personnel.
https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mental-strength/a41639349/alastair-campbell-johnny-mercer-liz-truss-interview/
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Thanks Wilts, I've just read that . If only we had a few more like him . His description of Truss should mean she never works again
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It’s a shame penny mordaunt did not get the job over truss. She comes over very well at the dispatch box and I though she did a pretty good job of tearing starmer a new one today over his reversal of most if not all of the policies he pledged if he became PM.
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It’s a shame penny mordaunt did not get the job over truss. She comes over very well at the dispatch box and I though she did a pretty good job of tearing starmer a new one today over his reversal of most if not all of the policies he pledged if he became PM.
Yet when she appeared on the leadership debates she was devoid of, well, pretty much everything.
It's easy to regurgitate baseless lines of attack while completely avoiding the real issue.
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It’s a shame penny mordaunt did not get the job over truss. She comes over very well at the dispatch box and I though she did a pretty good job of tearing starmer a new one today over his reversal of most if not all of the policies he pledged if he became PM.
Apart from the fact she's also completely useless and hasn't made a good fist of a cabinet job yet .
That's not my take by the way that's from the Tories themselves .
When the bar is as low as it is today within the Tory ranks a 10 year old child would seem credible .
Easy enough , just reverse the fruitcake policies of the last 3 weeks and be able to complete a sentence without sounding like you've taken hallucinating drugs .
As I say it's a low bar .
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I fundamentally disagree with Hunt's politics on many points.
But Christ, what a relief to hear a grown up just now, rather than the batshittery that Kwarteng and Truss have been spouting for the past month. You can have a sensible disagreement on issues where at least the basic tenet are established. You can't argue with people who deny the principles of basic logic. With Hunt, it felt like finally a grown up is back in charge, for all his faults.
Truss, sat at the side of him, looked like she'd been tranquilized. Barely a movement from her. Barely a reaction. Not a word to anyone. Like I said before, this is very serious. She has to be replaced before there are any more major national decisions to be made.
Here is the problem with the Sensible Tories' approach though.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Masonboyowen/status/1582050648723714048
Surely to God they cannot be so stupid as to slash capital infrastructure investment again?
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I fundamentally disagree with Hunt's politics on many points.
But Christ, what a relief to hear a grown up just now, rather than the batshittery that Kwarteng and Truss have been spouting for the past month. You can have a sensible disagreement on issues where at least the basic tenet are established. You can't argue with people who deny the principles of basic logic. With Hunt, it felt like finally a grown up is back in charge, for all his faults.
Truss, sat at the side of him, looked like she'd been tranquilized. Barely a movement from her. Barely a reaction. Not a word to anyone. Like I said before, this is very serious. She has to be replaced before there are any more major national decisions to be made.
Here is the problem with the Sensible Tories' approach though.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Masonboyowen/status/1582050648723714048
Surely to God they cannot be so stupid as to slash capital infrastructure investment again?
They will and I was expecting it.
They'll go down the same Austerity road as before.
What's that saying about doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome?
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Brilliant
https://twitter.com/coldwarsteve/status/1582041020505632768?s=61&t=2h6hOzcKnHOMB6b3RIYszw
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That's so funny Filo. Mrs T is in stitches.
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When I saw the headline this morning Crashed and Burned ..................
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''Business Secretary Jacob Rees-Mogg has said Liz Truss is "a very good prime minister" and she should "absolutely not" resign''
This should calm the markets and give everyone confidence.
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Where do our Tory Supporters stand on what’s gone off?
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Christ that interview with Truss on the BBC.
Q: Will you lead the Conservatives into the next Election?
A.
I
Will
Lead
The
Conservatives
Into
The
Next
Election.
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That interview was just surreal.
"I got elected on a plan to burn the house down. People told me it would burn the house down. I implemented it and the house caught fire.
"I have learned from that and I'm sorry. The most important thing is that we don't burn the house down again and I am absolutely determined not to burn the house down again."
This is the PM of the UK. How in God's name did we end up here?
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''How Liz Truss won the Conservative leadership race''
The BBC provided an easy push button list of the big issues, it's worth looking at the bullet points on the topics online to see what she said.
Cost of living
Tax & spending
Climate
Brexit
Health & social care
Education
Housing
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60037657
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Where do our Tory Supporters stand on what’s gone off?
''As they seek any glimmer of light in the gathering gloom, you can hear some Tories gloating over the misery that Labour will inherit. A Sunday Times editorial even suggests that going for an election “would be more strategically astute for the Conservatives to let Labour confront the economic challenges of the next few years”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/17/hunt-uk-services-nhs
Have a look at recent comments MN.
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Keith needs to box clever here with austerity getting rolled out because there's a Tory trap he could very well fall in to .
Setting yourself up as the new safe pair of hands with the economy is fine but with the country skint , borrowing to be expensive he's going to be pinned down by the Tories on how he proposes to pay to get us out of this .
If he's against austerity which I believe he will be then he needs to credibly fund his programme .
Just because the Tories have tanked the economy doesn't mean Labour will be allowed to spend spend spend in the current climate and they will frame it so .
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Totally the wrong message to be giving out tyke. The country isn't skint and it wasn't skint under Cameron and Osborne. That's the message that people who want to be cutting services that ordinary people and the very poorest use.
It has the wrong redistriburative tax system and allows too many people to avoid paying a fair/or any tax. It priorises the wrong industry, financial services based mostly in the City of London, above anything else.
A wealth tax, a higher top income tax rate, a change in inheritence tax rules, scrap the tax free golden visa, clamp down on tax evasion and the programme to invest in new green power and associated industries. That's pretty much the programme.
But don't fall into their trap. The country is not skint just because the Tories have handled the economy castrophically badly. We shoudn't be paying for their mistakes.
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I think of EU countries only Bulgaria has a less fair split of wealth than the UK
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Heappey has covered himself and the cabinet in something today, not sure it's glory.
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Totally the wrong message to be giving out tyke. The country isn't skint and it wasn't skint under Cameron and Osborne. That's the message that people who want to be cutting services that ordinary people and the very poorest use.
It has the wrong redistriburative tax system and allows too many people to avoid paying a fair/or any tax. It priorises the wrong industry, financial services based mostly in the City of London, above anything else.
A wealth tax, a higher top income tax rate, a change in inheritence tax rules, scrap the tax free golden visa, clamp down on tax evasion and the programme to invest in new green power and associated industries. That's pretty much the programme.
But don't fall into their trap. The country is not skint just because the Tories have handled the economy castrophically badly. We shoudn't be paying for their mistakes.
It's not so much as falling in to a trap, it's finding the credible information on the state of the UK economy that's the issue .
I read people such as Richard Murphy and watch Gary Stevenson's channel on YouTube and whilst both lean massively to the left both have different views on QE and borrowing .
I don't know what to think anymore to be honest but then again is it deliberately set up this way ?
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Tyke.
If you want to follow someone who explains economics very clearly, and who has been right on just about everything for the past two decades, I can't recommend anyone more than Prof Simon Wren-Lewis at Oxford Uni. The man ought to be given the freedom of the land - if anyone in Govt had listened to him over the past decade, we'd be in a far better position now.
Gordon Brown listened to him 20 years ago - Wren-Lewis set out the argument against going into the Euro when Blair was all for it. Convincing Brown to say No was a massive success - we'd have been screwed after the GFC if we'd been in the Euro.
His blog over the past 11 years is here. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/
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Let me give you an example of what is wrong with the tax system in this country. Let's say I am a small business person. I have my own company. Its turnover isn't great, but I get by.
Now. I am the sole shareholder. But I've just realised that my wife, who doesn't work, is a tremendously useful asset. If I give her one share she is then automatically entitled to a thousand quid a year completely tax free as dividend on her one share. I'm entitled to that too of course. Thank you George Osborne. Dividends are paid out of post tax profit so doing this will not change anything in the Company accounts. But if I make my wife a director of my little company, nominally of course, we can withdraw £12,500 a year not only tax free to her by using her tax free allowance, but also avoid the company paying 20% corporation tax on that £12,500 a year too. So I've just avoided £15 grand a year of tax. But that's not the end of it! My 2 or or 3 or 20 children, as soon they become 16 can all be appointed as directors too! Lovely, lovely money! Not only no income tax but no corporation tax too!
These "perks' have been introduced over the years by Conservative governments. I view them as bribes. Bribes to encourage those most likely to vote Conservative to continue doing so. The silly sods on PAYE can pay for stuff we plutocrats don't want and don't need like the NHS and mental health care. And just to make sure we plutocrats can continue to enjoy our wealth, we'll organise periodic scares about those horrible, feckless benefit scroungers.
Middle class tax evasión is fifty times the size of benefit scrounging.....
BobG
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Tyke.
If you want to follow someone who explains economics very clearly, and who has been right on just about everything for the past two decades, I can't recommend anyone more than Prof Simon Wren-Lewis at Oxford Uni. The man ought to be given the freedom of the land - if anyone in Govt had listened to him over the past decade, we'd be in a far better position now.
Gordon Brown listened to him 20 years ago - Wren-Lewis set out the argument against going into the Euro when Blair was all for it. Convincing Brown to say No was a massive success - we'd have been screwed after the GFC if we'd been in the Euro.
His blog over the past 11 years is here. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/
Thanks for that Billy I'll give it a butchers
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Interesting reading a part of the Wren-Lewis blog, where he was saying that the way to growth and prosperity for any country
was not by making the rich richer, but by raising up the poorest in society.
I'm currently re-reading John Bew's biography of my hero Clement Atlee.
Well back in 1906 Clem, his brother Tom and George Lansbury were working as Social Workers in Limehouse and were musing about the slow demise of the Empire and after much research published a pamphlet which came to the same conclusion as Wren-Lewis.
115 years ago eh, and the Tories still haven't learned.
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That's why the likes of the IEA exist Tommy.
The centre/left won the argument in the middle of the 20th century, all round the world. Massive inequality had led to economic collapse and war in the first 40 years. Keynesian economics and a tax and spend system that levelled out inequalities also levelled up everyone.
Everyone except the very rich. They lost out. We had 30 years of unprecedent stable growth and rising living standards for working people.
The IEA was founded in the 60s as a reaction to that. To re-establish a strong mouthpiece for laissez-faire right wing market economics.
And they won. Not in terms of their analysis being right. They won because they provided Thatcher and the ones further to the right who followed her with what sounded like a coherent theory. And they hammered it and they still hammer it through the Press and through BBC programmes.
And you end up with a PM like Truss who is so embedded with the IEA, she implements their policies in the most extreme, loony form. And we've seen what has happened.
The IEA has been wrong at every step.
Wrong when it pressed Thatcher to cut Govt spending in the 81 recession.
Wrong when they egged on Lawson to cut taxes in 88.
Wrong when they were the standard bearers for Austerity in 2010.
Wrong when they screamed how good Brexit would be.
Every time they've hurt the overall economy. But every time, they've pushed to make sure the richest were protected.
I don't use the word "evil" often, but that organisation IS evil. It exists to make sure the rivh and wealthy keep a stranglehold on our national debate, for their own ends. Labour should take it down when they win in 24, for the disasters it has visited on us.
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If they weren't dragging the country into the biggest self imposed economic disaster in a century, it'd be quite a laugh watching the Tories make themselves unelectable for a generation.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Samfr/status/1582482042905772033
I'm firming up on the idea that Truss is a long term sleeper agent with a mission to destroy the party.
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What just happened - in a nutshell:
''Mini-budget scrapped: A simple guide to why plan was dropped''
''The government has scrapped most of the key elements of its mini-budget after just over two weeks - but why did it have to respond to the turmoil in the financial markets and why does this matter to mortgage payers and everyone else?''
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63299483
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But but but she said she is sorry, so what's the problem?
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But but but she said she is sorry, so what's the problem?
The mantra at PMQ'S will be 'Mistakes were made' but there are mistakes and there are MISTAKES.
I accidentally left the freezer door open and we had to chuck some food away. That was a mistake but forgivable.
She came up with some hair brained scheme to create Growth x 3 and crashed the flipping economy which will take years to rectify and cost people billions. That is a MISTAKE but unforgivable.
There is no way back for her.
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But but but she said she is sorry, so what's the problem?
The mantra at PMQ'S will be 'Mistakes were made' but there are mistakes and there are MISTAKES.
I accidentally left the freezer door open and we had to chuck some food away. That was a mistake but forgivable.
She came up with some hair brained scheme to create Growth x 3 and crashed the flipping economy which will take years to rectify and cost people billions. That is a MISTAKE but unforgivable.
There is no way back for her.
It’s not a mistake when numerous experts warned her what would happen and she just ignored them
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I won't go so far as to say it was intentional but they would have known full well that the near-certain effect would be the one that happened. Nevertheless, they pressed on regardless because even allowing for having to reverse it after a couple of weeks it had the desired effect of putting vast amounts of money directly into the pockets of their cronies. Job done.
The conservative party is nothing but a set of despicable, self serving bas**rds. And those who continue to support them (and those who aren't Tories but daren't say anything to condemn them)... well
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So she's committed to the Pension Triple Lock when Hunt didn't commit 2 days ago. More trouble in Paradise? Perhaps not in 'lockstep'?
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She's back under her desk again. Cancelled a visit to an electronics company after which she was supposed to face Journo's questions
-
And still not a bleeding word about funding the NHS and mental health. Of course, plutocrats won't need public services will they....
BobG
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Thought this was cruel but funny:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1582627610466533377
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Braverman gone as Home Secretary which is no bad thing but wait for it ........ Grant Schapps has got the gig .
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Braverman gone as Home Secretary which is no bad thing but wait for it ........ Grant Schapps has got the gig .
Unreal.
In power, sorry, office for 44 days and she's already lost 2 of the 3 big appointments.
This decision was mad by Hunt apparently. Which says everything.
Did you hear Braverman in the House yesterday? She sounded truly deranged ranting about the "tofu eating wokerati". The woman is a true swivel-eyed headbanger.
-
Put her on a plane to Rwanda.
-
Put her on a plane to Rwanda.
Sod that, make her walk.
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The Home Secretary resigns under bizarre circumstances. It’s almost as if she created her own demise by sending that email. Almost like she wanted an excuse to quit.
like rats leaving a sinking ship.
Labour won’t win the next GE. They don’t need to. They are being given the right to govern on a plate.
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Tory whip saying the vote on fracking is now a vote of confidence in the Govt. Time for the Trussouters to show their colours. Is this leading to a GE?
-
Let me give you an example of what is wrong with the tax system in this country. Let's say I am a small business person. I have my own company. Its turnover isn't great, but I get by.
Now. I am the sole shareholder. But I've just realised that my wife, who doesn't work, is a tremendously useful asset. If I give her one share she is then automatically entitled to a thousand quid a year completely tax free as dividend on her one share. I'm entitled to that too of course. Thank you George Osborne. Dividends are paid out of post tax profit so doing this will not change anything in the Company accounts. But if I make my wife a director of my little company, nominally of course, we can withdraw £12,500 a year not only tax free to her by using her tax free allowance, but also avoid the company paying 20% corporation tax on that £12,500 a year too. So I've just avoided £15 grand a year of tax. But that's not the end of it! My 2 or or 3 or 20 children, as soon they become 16 can all be appointed as directors too! Lovely, lovely money! Not only no income tax but no corporation tax too!
These "perks' have been introduced over the years by Conservative governments. I view them as bribes. Bribes to encourage those most likely to vote Conservative to continue doing so. The silly sods on PAYE can pay for stuff we plutocrats don't want and don't need like the NHS and mental health care. And just to make sure we plutocrats can continue to enjoy our wealth, we'll organise periodic scares about those horrible, feckless benefit scroungers.
Middle class tax evasión is fifty times the size of benefit scrounging.....
BobG
Its things like this that infuriate me but unfortunately very few know about these loopholes.
Those that do are happy to take advantage of it.
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Tory whip saying the vote on fracking is now a vote of confidence in the Govt. Time for the Trussouters to show their colours. Is this leading to a GE?
I presume they're saying that because the Commons is virtually empty and the chance of any organised backbench rebellion just about nil.
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Tory whip saying the vote on fracking is now a vote of confidence in the Govt. Time for the Trussouters to show their colours. Is this leading to a GE?
I presume they're saying that because the Commons is virtually empty and the chance of any organised backbench rebellion just about nil.
They have called a 3 line whip on the vote so Tory MPs have to vote for the Govt or risk losing the whip.
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Suella has found a way to walk whilst firing a couple parting shots. Everyday there's a new turn at the circus.
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A few Tory rebels saying they won't back the government on fracking tonight. Others saying they won't risk losing the whip as their letter of no confidence would therefore be void.
Either way, it's just a matter of time.
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Most of the Shale Gas is in the South Downs AONB and Tory heart lands!
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Labour supporters up and down the country will be foaming at the mouth no doubt at the demise of the Conservative party.
But this goes much deeper than inter party politics in my opinion.
Very concerning times for this country.
Because Labour when they get to power will inherit this shit fest. And I have little or no confidence they will do any different with it. Starmer offers no alternative. No solution. No effective opposition. He will inherit this turd show and carry on kicking the can down the road, just like the conservatives have.
The only difference being there will be strikes up and down the country the likes of which we haven’t seen since the General strike of 1926.
If we think government is in a mess now. We ain’t seen nothing yet.
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If Labour do take charge soon, they inherit a real horror story and there is a danger they could become equally tarnished by it.
Starmer I think, would be wise to level with the British people, explain how difficult the situation we find ourselves in really is. Not promise much but offer blood, sweat and tears to try and improve matters.
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Replaced by the bastion of honesty that is Grant Shapps-Green-Fox
I've mentioned the little weasel enough on here already . Short story a proven LIAR and also stupid to boot
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Replaced by the bastion of honesty that is Grant Shapps-Green-Fox
I've mentioned the little weasel enough on here already . Short story a proven LIAR and also stupid to boot
We can look forward to the pillar of integrity that is the shadow chancellor too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4nPHy7ez6AhWQM8AKHdRgCjEQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectator.co.uk%2Farticle%2Frachel-reeves-rapped-over-interests&usg=AOvVaw2VRQFzUUiFMky5OADOqRQI
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Now they're saying the vote isn't a confidence vote. Do they know they're going to lose..?
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Observing Truss and the government at the moment is like watching blackadder, minus any comedy. At least Johnson provided something to laugh at, even if he was oblivious to it.
I expect we will hear what alternative Labour would offer, once we get a GE called.. whether or not people think Labour could do any better, the current lot are imploding on a daily even hourly basis..
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The Sun saying the Chief Whip has resigned!!
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Strange thing was, though the Tories were absolutely unelectable in 1997, Kenneth Clarke had done an excellent job as Chancellor (following on from three previous disasters in Howe, Lawson and Lamont) and Labour inherited a pretty good situation.
They certainly ain't going to inherit that in 2024. As you say RD, it would be sensible of them to play an expectation management role before they inherit the mess. It's going to take half a decade of good management to even start to get the ship righted.
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Replaced by the bastion of honesty that is Grant Shapps-Green-Fox
I've mentioned the little weasel enough on here already . Short story a proven LIAR and also stupid to boot
We can look forward to the pillar of integrity that is the shadow chancellor too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4nPHy7ez6AhWQM8AKHdRgCjEQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectator.co.uk%2Farticle%2Frachel-reeves-rapped-over-interests&usg=AOvVaw2VRQFzUUiFMky5OADOqRQI
On the one hand you have a politician missing a deadline for reporting a donation by a few days.
On the other you have the head of a pyramid scheme and get rich quick scam who threated to destroy a constituent for daring to (correctly) point out that he was lying to Parliament.
Bothsides, eh?
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Replaced by the bastion of honesty that is Grant Shapps-Green-Fox
I've mentioned the little weasel enough on here already . Short story a proven LIAR and also stupid to boot
We can look forward to the pillar of integrity that is the shadow chancellor too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi4nPHy7ez6AhWQM8AKHdRgCjEQFnoECAsQAQ&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectator.co.uk%2Farticle%2Frachel-reeves-rapped-over-interests&amp;usg=AOvVaw2VRQFzUUiFMky5OADOqRQI
On the one hand you have a politician missing a deadline for reporting a donation by a few days.
On the other you have the head of a pyramid scheme and get rich quick scam who threated to destroy a constituent for daring to (correctly) point out that he was lying to Parliament.
Bothsides, eh?
And of course the fact that one of them apologised for their error and accepted their punishment whilst the other did not apologise or even accept any wrongdoing at all is completely irrelevant.
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The Sun saying the Chief Whip has resigned!!
Reports of MPs being bullied and actually manhandled into the Government lobby might explain this resignation, if true.
Then again, if the Chief Whip wasn't privy to the decision either to make this a confidence vote and then suddenly not a confidence vote any more might be an alternative reason.
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Now there are reports that the Deputy Chief Whip has resigned too.
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They used to say it so often it was a cliche that the Tory party was a broadchurch. Nowadays it's like two parties, the Wets and the Libertarian wing. It seems to be coming apart at the seams.
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Backbencher Charles Walker has just been interviewed, he didn't mince his words about his fury about the damage he sees being done to the Conservative party ('a shambles and a disgrace'). I've never seen an MP attack his own colleagues like this. Well worth watching if you can find it, although I expect it to get repeated across BBC News.
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Labour MPs reported screaming and shouting and Tory MPs being dragged in to vote with the Government.
Speaking in the chamber afterwards, former minister Chris Bryant said: 'I would urge you to launch an investigation into the scenes outside the entrance to the no lobby earlier. As you know, members are expected to be able to vote without fear or favour and the behaviour code which is agreed by the whole of the House says there shall never be bullying or harassment.
...it's becoming like Greece.
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What a f**king obscene shambles.
This guy called it right last night.
https://twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1582375866205556736?s=20&t=62ZebFIIbZhwHCCBvF4gJg
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5 Chancellors in 30 months. 3 Chancellors in 2 months and 1 week. Briefings putting knives in the backs of their own colleagues. Leaders repeatedly hiding from Parliament. Government that deliberately avoids the scrutiny mechanisms. Government that didn't even tell the Bank of England the content of its 'mini budget'!
Even Mrs Thatcher will be turning in her grave.
BobG
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
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So many fascinating elements to it. Truss won't survive, she was never the right choice (nor was Sunak btw).
Boris had his faults massively but this is another level.
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5 Chancellors in 30 months. 3 Chancellors in 2 months and 1 week. Briefings putting knives in backs. Leaders repeatedly hiding from Parliament. Government that deliberately avoids the scrutiny mechanisms. Government that didn't even tell the Bank of England the content of its 'mini budget'!
Even Mrs Thatcher will be turning in her grave.
BobG
Thatcher? They're making Eden look like a paragon of governance.
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
Doesn’t that constitute an assault?
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So many fascinating elements to it. Truss won't survive, she was never the right choice (nor was Sunak btw).
Boris had his faults massively but this is another level.
Boris had the talent of self-preservation. Truss...does she have any talents at all?
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
That's a disturbing image. I imagine she had the poor fella in a headlock.
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
Doesn’t that constitute an assault?
Lynsey Hoyle (who wasn't in the Chair for the debate and vote) has reportedly launched an investigation to establish what has happened. Even if it's not a full-blown assault there are standards of Parliamentary behaviour that have to be adhered to.
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Surely if that incident did happen, it’s a resignation issue (at least).?
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
She was only taking them to give them a few prescription drugs
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One MP has tweeted that he saw Deputy PM Coffey drag an MP into the government lobby.
She was only taking them to give them a few prescription drugs
Suppositories, I imagine.
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Backbencher Charles Walker has just been interviewed, he didn't mince his words about his fury about the damage he sees being done to the Conservative party ('a shambles and a disgrace'). I've never seen an MP attack his own colleagues like this. Well worth watching if you can find it, although I expect it to get repeated across BBC News.
I was stunned listening to this guy. Honest and sincere and damming of the govt ministers. Under normal circumstances I would enjoy listening to this but sadly the cost of all this just makes me feel sick. I'm no Tory but we have gone beyond the point of party politics.
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Fracking is a possibility in this area, I see our Tory MP for York outer voted with the government but the neighbouring Tory for Selby abstained.
-
Labour MP Chris Bryant said Alexander Stafford, the Conservative MP for Rother Valley was “manhandled” and “bullied” in the voting lobby.
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One thing stands out to me, those in the executive are terrified of a General Election
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A Tory MP, linked earlier (the ex military bloke who has tried so hard to do something for ex military types) said that the Conservative Party today is solely about ambition, power and greed.
That's been obvious for quite a while of course. But maybe sensible folk to the right of centre will see the Party for the right wing libertarian fruitcakes that it is today.
BobG
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Let me give you an example of what is wrong with the tax system in this country. Let's say I am a small business person. I have my own company. Its turnover isn't great, but I get by.
Now. I am the sole shareholder. But I've just realised that my wife, who doesn't work, is a tremendously useful asset. If I give her one share she is then automatically entitled to a thousand quid a year completely tax free as dividend on her one share. I'm entitled to that too of course. Thank you George Osborne. Dividends are paid out of post tax profit so doing this will not change anything in the Company accounts. But if I make my wife a director of my little company, nominally of course, we can withdraw £12,500 a year not only tax free to her by using her tax free allowance, but also avoid the company paying 20% corporation tax on that £12,500 a year too. So I've just avoided £15 grand a year of tax. But that's not the end of it! My 2 or or 3 or 20 children, as soon they become 16 can all be appointed as directors too! Lovely, lovely money! Not only no income tax but no corporation tax too!
These "perks' have been introduced over the years by Conservative governments. I view them as bribes. Bribes to encourage those most likely to vote Conservative to continue doing so. The silly sods on PAYE can pay for stuff we plutocrats don't want and don't need like the NHS and mental health care. And just to make sure we plutocrats can continue to enjoy our wealth, we'll organise periodic scares about those horrible, feckless benefit scroungers.
Middle class tax evasión is fifty times the size of benefit scrounging.....
BobG
Its things like this that infuriate me but unfortunately very few know about these loopholes.
Those that do are happy to take advantage of it.
Almost everyone who is in business will know about and exploit those circumstances.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
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And your point is?
Even if people do exploit it, that doesn't make it right does it?
BobG
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So. About this post-Johnson bounce for the Tories...
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As anyone else picked up the irony that's currently getting played out in the Tory Party .
The Party that's sowed so much division in our society is currently eating itself alive by division and falling spectacularly on their own sword .
What goes around ......
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After Tory MPs were told it was a three-line whip and that if they didn't vote to support the government that they'd have the whip withdrawn and their career would be over, guess who didn't vote to support the government...
Liz Truss!
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Maybe she WAS hiding under the desk this time?
-
Perhaps she needed to have someone throw her through the door.
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Tory supporters are noticeably quiet tonight.... When any Party falls prey to it's idealogues it's a bloody shame. It's happened to the Labour Party. It paid the price and it regained at least a degree of sanity. Now it's the turn of the Conservative Party. Question is, will the power, the wealth and the ambition of the libertarians overpower those in the Party who will undoubtedly try to bring back a semblance of normality?
BobG
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Imagine owning up to have been manhandled to vote against your will by Smogg
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Tory supporters are noticeably quiet tonight.... When any Party falls prey to it's idealogues it's a bloody shame. It's happened to the Labour Party. It paid the price and it regained at least a degree of sanity. Now it's the turn of the Conservative Party. Question is, will the power, the wealth and the ambition of the libertarians overpower those in the Party who will undoubtedly try to bring back a semblance of normality?
BobG
I think the Conservative Party could be done for Bob .
I reckon the right wing fruitcakes will split and go their own way and backed by Tuffton Street .
Now that's fine in many respects if you are a one nation Tory but they aren't half going to eat in to their vote .
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Tory supporters are noticeably quiet tonight.... When any Party falls prey to it's idealogues it's a bloody shame. It's happened to the Labour Party. It paid the price and it regained at least a degree of sanity. Now it's the turn of the Conservative Party. Question is, will the power, the wealth and the ambition of the libertarians overpower those in the Party who will undoubtedly try to bring back a semblance of normality?
BobG
I think the Conservative Party could be done for Bob .
I reckon the right wing fruitcakes will split and go their own way and backed by Tuffton Street .
Now that's fine in many respects if you are a one nation Tory but they aren't half going to eat in to their vote .
UKIP II: Lust For Glory?
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Tory supporters are noticeably quiet tonight.... When any Party falls prey to it's idealogues it's a bloody shame. It's happened to the Labour Party. It paid the price and it regained at least a degree of sanity. Now it's the turn of the Conservative Party. Question is, will the power, the wealth and the ambition of the libertarians overpower those in the Party who will undoubtedly try to bring back a semblance of normality?
BobG
Who are the Tory supporters on here Bob.
Any names.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
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Tory supporters are noticeably quiet tonight.... When any Party falls prey to it's idealogues it's a bloody shame. It's happened to the Labour Party. It paid the price and it regained at least a degree of sanity. Now it's the turn of the Conservative Party. Question is, will the power, the wealth and the ambition of the libertarians overpower those in the Party who will undoubtedly try to bring back a semblance of normality?
BobG
I think the Conservative Party could be done for Bob .
I reckon the right wing fruitcakes will split and go their own way and backed by Tuffton Street .
Now that's fine in many respects if you are a one nation Tory but they aren't half going to eat in to their vote .
I agree that the Conservatives are in deep trouble Tyke.
Truss is a nightmare for them.
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And your point is?
Even if people do exploit it, that doesn't make it right does it?
BobG
My point is that I was responding to grayx who said he didn’t know about the opportunity to reduce one’s income tax in the way it was explained by yourself.
I thought you would have understood that.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
Evading is illegal by the way. I thought you would have understood that.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
Evading is illegal by the way. I thought you would have understood that.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
Yeah, slip of the finger or maybe predictive text, it should have said avoiding which is of course legal.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
Evading is illegal by the way. I thought you would have understood that.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
Yeah, slip of the finger or maybe predictive text, it should have said avoiding which is of legal.
Lots of slips of fingers and a predictive text of words with different first letters?? Yeah, right. :lol:
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
Evading is illegal by the way. I thought you would have understood that.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
Yeah, slip of the finger or maybe predictive text, it should have said avoiding which is of legal.
Lots of slips of fingers and a predictive text of words with different first letters?? Yeah, right. :lol:
Think what you like Glyn.
You didn’t respond to the main point of the post although if you haven’t been in business yourself I don’t suppose my post would have applied to you so I’m not sure why you would get involved apart from the cheap shot.
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Hello, now it's we're all the same!! :silly:
Well I suppose that depends on whether you have been in business or exploited the system, which is legal by the way.
Evading is illegal by the way. I thought you would have understood that.
There will be posters on this forum of all political persuasions who are evading paying some amount of taxes, unless they have a poor accountant of course.
Yeah, slip of the finger or maybe predictive text, it should have said avoiding which is of legal.
Lots of slips of fingers and a predictive text of words with different first letters?? Yeah, right. :lol:
Think what you like Glyn.
You didn’t respond to the main point of the post although if you haven’t been in business yourself I don’t suppose my post would have applied to you so I’m not sure why you would get involved apart from the cheap shot.
The business I was in was catching people evading tax and Duty. You?
And the main point of your original post was you accusing people on this forum of breaking the law. Was that a cheap shot or a completely serious one?
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I was in business myself for lots of years and had a good accountant.
All fully legal and above board.
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Not necessarily either moral or wise though for a guy who moralises as much as you Hound
BobG
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I was in business myself for lots of years and had a good accountant.
All fully legal and above board.
So, the obvious inference here is that your good accountant ensured that you paid as little tax as was legally possible.
Legal yes, above board hmm.
We all know that goes on, and by the very nature of business its impossible to police, other than by appealing to the social consience of businessmen and women like you.
Fat chance.
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This is absolutely unprecedented.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1582795488986030080?s=20&t=xYfNHehHcP4skSlz1gHJ0A
The minister responsible for the vote on fracking DIDN'T KNOW if the Tories were going with a three line whip.
Bad Govt policy is one thing.
This isn't about policy though. This is about the most basic competence.
We have currently got no Government running the country. It's has fallen apart. This is the UK for God's sake not some benighted Banana Republic.
Think about the not inconceivable possibility that we wake up some morning in the next month to find Putin has used a nuke in Kherson. And this lot are in charge of our response.
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It's hard to keep up with events
https://twitter.com/i/status/1582851394734002177
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Let's not forget truss did a massive U-turn in her bid to get to the top of the dung heap
This is only weeks old ..... an $8bn+ reversal
''Liz Truss U-turns on plan to cut public sector pay outside London''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/liz-truss-u-turns-plan-cut-public-sector-pay-outside-london-tory-leadership
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The tories are now reduced to scraping the bottom of the deepest stinking barrel and have come up with shapps.
shapps a liar and spiv using his money and position to quell dissent is now home secretary.
''Grant Shapps: just how gullible does he think voters are?''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/16/grant-shapps-gullible-voters-michael-green-second-job
Nearly forgot about this gem ............. what can you say, please give it up for Michael Crick who does a superb job of cornering the greasy pig from an era that will go down in tory history as maybe the most memorable.
''Michael Crick grills Grant Shapps over software business''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wulxnR-3CWY
For any remaining doubters, the evidence and the tape ..... give it up for grant shapps, he's finally forced to admit the truth.
''Grant Shapps admits he had second job as 'millionaire web marketer' while MP''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp
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I was in business myself for lots of years and had a good accountant.
All fully legal and above board.
So, the obvious inference here is that your good accountant ensured that you paid as little tax as was legally possible.
Legal yes, above board hmm.
We all know that goes on, and by the very nature of business its impossible to police, other than by appealing to the social consience of businessmen and women like you.
Fat chance.
Tommy, first of all look back through the thread.
My original post about this was an explanation for grayx who said he didn’t know about the tax saving thing that had been mentioned.
Secondly, you are being very naive yourself if you think it doesn’t happen even by owners of small businesses.
Even Labour supporting business owners will do it, including people on here.
Not many people will apologise to the nation for keeping their taxes down.
It is policed by HMRC and if people do evade (Glyn, yes evade) then they should pay the consequences.
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Where did I say I think it didn't happen in small businesses?
Of course it does.
I had a business myself in the 80's.
Did all the accounts and VAT myself and paid all the tax I was liable for without cutting corners.
It was much, much easier that way.
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Defending the indefensible Hound has always been a thankless task.... It's usually only ever attempted by those suffering from myopia.
BobG
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I employ an accountant to do our books. There's only one tax relief we ever claim, which is R&D tax credit for costs incurred in developing unique new processes and equipment. It is one of the key ways that companies are incentivised to invest in things that can boost productivity.
I personally pay PAYE. I have never used an accountant to claim back any tax, although I'm sure they could save me a fortune, I don't need it.
I'm very interested in the concept that I floated earlier about using pension contributions to pay off a mortgage, but morally it is absolutely wrong. It is basically taking money from state coffers and splitting it between yourself and the bank that your mortgage is with (because overall you pay far more interest to them as you're not paying down the capital till the end.)
I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did that while these Kitsons in charge are cutting the real value of benefits to people working flat out on Minimum Wage.
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This is absolutely unprecedented.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1582795488986030080?s=20&t=xYfNHehHcP4skSlz1gHJ0A
The minister responsible for the vote on fracking DIDN'T KNOW if the Tories were going with a three line whip.
Bad Govt policy is one thing.
This isn't about policy though. This is about the most basic competence.
We have currently got no Government running the country. It's has fallen apart. This is the UK for God's sake not some benighted Banana Republic.
Think about the not inconceivable possibility that we wake up some morning in the next month to find Putin has used a nuke in Kherson. And this lot are in charge of our response.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1582895159775137794
So by 1:30am, the line was that it had ALWAYS been a confidence vote and all the MPs knew that.
How does that square with that video of a Tory MP asking the energy minister if it was a 3 line whip, and him not knowing.
R4 this morning. Senior journalist saying that foreign business leaders and ambassadors were saying asking do we have a Government?
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Billy, amongst a number of people I correspond with, the concept of Britain being the world's first banana democracy has been around for at least 3 years now. Current events are rather proving the point....
BobG
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Truss making a statement at 1.30 today.
2 hours ago Downing St said there'd be no statement today.
It looks like she's on her way out.
Well it was fun while it lasted.
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Resign in a minute
She's gunna resign in a minute
Resign in a mi iiinite
Etc
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Gone
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Gone. Now a Tory leadership contest. That'll be nasty for sure.
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Get Copps in to sort it out. 3 days it took him to get Danny in
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45 days. Bust a gut to get to the top spot. For what?
This is no kind of legacy.
She is not a fighter. She is a quitter.
She is not a leader.
Utterly pathetic.
-
Gone. Now a Tory leadership contest. That'll be nasty for sure.
Aren’t they just taking turns at this stage?
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The lettuce won :thumbsup:
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? have they removed that gold wallpaper
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Gone. Resigned.
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Who on earth would now want to step forward and take charge of this shit show?
The most poisonous of chalices.
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She's a fighter...
She's no quitter...
Another U turn then.
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Defending the indefensible Hound has always been a thankless task.... It's usually only ever attempted by those suffering from myopia.
BobG
Bob, I am not defending anything.
I was originally explaining something to another poster before the barmy army decided to have a go at me and took things to another level.
I’m not sure why your parting shot at people has to be a put down, accusing people of lacking intellectual insight is often your mantra.
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She's been in power less time than she campaigned for the job.
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Where did I say I think it didn't happen in small businesses?
Of course it does.
I had a business myself in the 80's.
Did all the accounts and VAT myself and paid all the tax I was liable for without cutting corners.
It was much, much easier that way.
I paid all the taxes I was due to pay too Tommy, in fact I still do.
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I hope BST took some of those odds!
Right decision, she was never the right choice.
It will be interesting to see who gets the job and I do wonder if they'll just call a GE and be done with it and take opposition. I'd be tempted to do that.
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Dont celebrate too much, just heard on news Braverman in the running
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Defending the indefensible Hound has always been a thankless task.... It's usually only ever attempted by those suffering from myopia.
BobG
Bob, I am not defending anything.
I was originally explaining something to another poster before the barmy army decided to have a go at me and took things to another level.
I’m not sure why your parting shot at people has to be a put down, accusing people of lacking intellectual ability is often your mantra.
It’s a sorry state of affairs, Hound.
Just watching the little piranhas stirring up to a frenzy would be funny if it wasn’t so alarming.
Then Bobby Gee, as usual, reminds you just how unintelligent you must be.
There’s a scene from James Herbert’s ‘The Fog’ in the school gymnasium that often reminds me of this forum and its pack mentality.
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44 days - just like Brian Clough at Leeds...
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Lets just hope this complete shower will not offend our sensitivities anymore and not bring back Johnson.
Absolute mockery of this nations traditions and standing to stop a minute longer than announce a new leader at the same time as setting a date for a GE.
Its such a shame for our country that this unbelievably poor intake of parliamentarians had been gifted the chance to govern our nation and the damage they have inflicted will not go unnoticed by the electorate.The only saving grace is that a substantial number of these rank poor individuals will be relieved of their positions as soon as a GE is completed.
We just need to hope that the incoming government has enough about it to have implemented good enough people to take over and placate this whole disaster period for us as a country. Im certainly not holding my breath, with what we have to look forward to.
I suggest in future we have psychometric testing to weed out some of these "professional parliamentarians" as they certainly don't have the overall good of the nation as their first concerns.
Absolute disgrace.
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According to the Daily Star, the lettuce will be making a statement to the nation at 7pm this evening.
-
? have they removed that gold wallpaper
wow boris is 6/1 i got four times that
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Lets just hope this complete shower will not offend our sensitivities anymore and not bring back Johnson.
Absolute mockery of this nations traditions and standing to stop a minute longer than announce a new leader at the same time as setting a date for a GE.
Its such a shame for our country that this unbelievably poor intake of parliamentarians had been gifted the chance to govern our nation and the damage they have inflicted will not go unnoticed by the electorate.The only saving grace is that a substantial number of these rank poor individuals will be relieved of their positions as soon as a GE is completed.
We just need to hope that the incoming government has enough about it to have implemented good enough people to take over and placate this whole disaster period for us as a country. Im certainly not holding my breath, with what we have to look forward to.
I suggest in future we have psychometric testing to weed out some of these "professional parliamentarians" as they certainly don't have the overall good of the nation as their first concerns.
Absolute disgrace.
Just heard on the news that Johnson will stand for re election.
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The Times have just confirmed Bojo is likely to stand for re election.
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The Times have just confirmed Bojo is likely to stand for re election.
and we all lived happily ever after ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Lets just hope this complete shower will not offend our sensitivities anymore and not bring back Johnson.
Absolute mockery of this nations traditions and standing to stop a minute longer than announce a new leader at the same time as setting a date for a GE.
Its such a shame for our country that this unbelievably poor intake of parliamentarians had been gifted the chance to govern our nation and the damage they have inflicted will not go unnoticed by the electorate.The only saving grace is that a substantial number of these rank poor individuals will be relieved of their positions as soon as a GE is completed.
We just need to hope that the incoming government has enough about it to have implemented good enough people to take over and placate this whole disaster period for us as a country. Im certainly not holding my breath, with what we have to look forward to.
I suggest in future we have psychometric testing to weed out some of these "professional parliamentarians" as they certainly don't have the overall good of the nation as their first concerns.
Absolute disgrace.
Just heard on the news that Johnson will stand for re election.
Would be quite funny if this was not so serious.
Are these people deluded?, bringing back the arch cretin to try to save their skins?
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Be careful what you wish for.
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The Times have just confirmed Bojo is likely to stand for re election.
Not sure that's a good thing for Keith or Labour.... :blink:
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Well, I think he'd last longer. Until the next partygate report, at least.
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Camilla McTominey of the Daily Telegraph said on Politics Live the other day, that if Johnson was to make a comeback, her newspaper and others, would restart various investigations on him that they put on the back burner when he resigned as PM.
Which would suggest the Press would be after him from Day 1.
Would the Tories really want to risk more palaver with him?
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No mate, i don't think they would do.
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I agree hound.
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The commitment to the triple lock were empty words, made in the knowledge she wouldn’t be in post when the time came
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Would Johnson even be able to form a cabinet? Surely all the ones who resigned en masse last time wouldn't be up for working with him again?
It really depends how much sway the members get. If it's left to them we'll probably have Johnson back.
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I saw a post on some media today that for some reason I can't copy. But Alan McGuiness posted "My son has lived through four Chancellors, three Home Secretaries, two Prime Ministers and two Monarchs.
He's four months old."
Verily, a banana democracy.
BobG
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44 days - just like Brian Clough at Leeds...
Yes .... but whole he could haThe commitment to the triple lock were empty words, made in the knowledge she wouldn’t be in post when the time came
Yes that's a worry . The new "Leader" will say Truss promised that but you know what her economic "nous" was like
However it was another Manifesto promise which Cleverley cleverly reminded us yesterday that " they always try to honour their Manifesto promises "
Yeah right !
xcept
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Is says something for the shallowness of talent in the Cabinet when not one of the holders of the three big offices of state are in the running to become PM. I've never known the like.
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Seriously question, is there anyone in that chamber who you would be happy with in the top seat? I'm struggling to see any statesmen/women in there who i think would be an inspired choice and would enthuse the electorate.
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The Times have just confirmed Bojo is likely to stand for re election.
Not sure that's a good thing for Keith or Labour.... :blink:
He would get his GE - half the Tory Party would quit if Johnson came back.
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One senior Tory MP has said he will set himself on fire outside Westminster if Johnson comes back as PM.
One day. When this shit show is over, we might remember that running the country is a f**king serious business, with serious consequences. Not a slack arsed Tory Party reality show.
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I hope BST took some of those odds!
Right decision, she was never the right choice.
It will be interesting to see who gets the job and I do wonder if they'll just call a GE and be done with it and take opposition. I'd be tempted to do that.
Nope. I haven't got an account open these days. Stupid me. It was like printing money.
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So any new hopefuls have to get 100 MPs to nominate them. What if 4 each get 88 nominations?
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They could possibly do three months each in the job.
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:):):)
But they'll have lined it all up surely? Nobody could be as stupid as to allow that to happen!
BobG
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Seriously question, is there anyone in that chamber who you would be happy with in the top seat? I'm struggling to see any statesmen/women in there who i think would be an inspired choice and would enthuse the electorate.
Enthusing the electorate has to come second to gaining their confidence again. The Conservatives need someone who acts - and is seen to act - like a grown-up. Boris was all smoke and mirrors whilst Truss was sheer incompetence.
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:):):)
But they'll have lined it all up surely? Nobody could be as stupid as to allow that to happen!
BobG
Boris could be the one to put a spoke in the well-planned wheel, though, by splitting the nominations wide open whilst not getting enough to stand himself.
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Seriously question, is there anyone in that chamber who you would be happy with in the top seat? I'm struggling to see any statesmen/women in there who i think would be an inspired choice and would enthuse the electorate.
I'd have serious differences with any of them on policy. But after the last two idiots, anyone with a basic competence to run Government effectively would be an improvement.
That car crash last night was actually frightening, because it revealed the extent to which Govt was simply not operating.
Assuming their internal party enemies don't rip them.apart, Sunak, Hunt (I know he's not standing), Mordaunt (I guess), Javid (maybe), Wallace (definitely) as a bare minimum ought to get Government functioning, even if their policies are something I'd detest.
That's how low the bar is after Johnson and Truss.
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If 3 of them get the minimum of 100 nominations, whoever wins will know that that they weren't the 1st choice of two thirds of their own MPs .
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Never in my life have I seen such a shyte show as this .
Sickens me to the stomach to see people in the street interviewed on tv wanting Johnson back , these people appear to be perfectly normal and rational .
What the feck happened to this country ?
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There's a poll out today.
After crashing the economy.
After massively raising mortgage payments.
After announcing the most batshit far right budget in half a century, then ditching it all three weeks later.
After sacking a Chancellor for agreeing with the PM.
After seeing a Home Secretary storm out 6 weeks after starting.
After the absolute shit show of basic competence yesterday.
After the Deputy Chief Whip ran through Parliament last night shouting "f**k this, I've f**king had enough."
After all that, 22% of voters still say they would have voted Tory if there'd been an election today.
I heard one of them in the radio tonight. She said "Well ah think they shud a given 'er a bit more tahm".
How do these people operate in the world? How do they not poke their eyes out with a fork every time they try to eat?
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Worst outcome for Labour now would be a dull, unflashy, reasonably competent safe pair of hands as PM.
Hunt or Wallace maybe. Somebody like a younger Kenneth Clarke. It might make the Tories recover in the polls.
I'd be delighted if they did get someone like that though, because we are in such a shit hole, party advantage comes a long, long way behind getting Govt working again and the country looking remotely competent.
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i knew yesterday Penny (2 years in a job - using your feminine charm- nudge nudge -then move on ) MordUNT was gunning for the PM when yesterday the political expert said you never use the same words that have come out of the oppositions mouth when they ask a question
Penny said no she isn't under the table -- the political expert mentioned another clue that she was helping her fellow WOMAN towards the exit door
Penny is a dopple ganger of the PM and would maybe be worse
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Meanwhile, the neo-fascist Kitson Cavalcade that dragged the Tory party so far right that Truss, Kwarteng and Braverman were seen as normal are unrepentant.
https://mobile.twitter.com/flashboy/status/1582784766222684160
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In the last 2 hours, Boris has moved ahead of Sunak and Mordaunt amongst Tory MPs.
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There's a poll out today.
After crashing the economy.
After massively raising mortgage payments.
After announcing the most batshit far right budget in half a century, then ditching it all three weeks later.
After sacking a Chancellor for agreeing with the PM.
After seeing a Home Secretary storm out 6 weeks after starting.
After the absolute shit show of basic competence yesterday.
After the Deputy Chief Whip ran through Parliament last night shouting "f**k this, I've f**king had enough."
After all that, 22% of voters still say they would have voted Tory if there'd been an election today.
I heard one of them in the radio tonight. She said "Well ah think they shud a given 'er a bit more tahm".
How do these people operate in the world? How do they not poke their eyes out with a fork every time they try to eat?
You forgot, she killed the Queen
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Current score as at 9 pm tonight:
Johnson 41
Sunak 29
Mordaunt 14
But try this link for a bit of light relief!!
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
Won't happen, but it's a fun thing to fantasise about
BobG
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If Boris were to win, we’ll I dread to think about the outcome.
Aren’t there still some things he has to defend from his earlier time in office.
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Presuming Braverman etc are going to step-aside, are there 100 right-wing MP's who would support Johnson, that's the big question now?
And would Johnson, who came into office with his leveling-up slogan and 40 new hospitals etc, want to be the austerity PM who cut massively cut public services and put taxes up to a record level? Because that's the task of the next PM.
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Wilts, I have heard that he has around 50 backers so far.
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He won't care a fig Wilts! Power and glory and narcissism and self aggrandisement are the only things Boris has ever cared about. Even his Eton school reports used to comment on it.
Bob
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Presuming Braverman etc are going to step-aside, are there 100 right-wing MP's who would support Johnson, that's the big question now?
And would Johnson, who came into office with his leveling-up slogan and 40 new hospitals etc, want to be the austerity PM who cut massively cut public services and put taxes up to a record level? Because that's the task of the next PM.
Johnson spent a night ringing around to find someone, anyone to support him. Nobody would. Is this all just forgotten?
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desperate times RD, they are looking for someone to save the party
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If Boris were to win, we’ll I dread to think about the outcome.
Aren’t there still some things he has to defend from his earlier time in office.
The small matter of misleading Parliament Hound .
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Nothing too bad then.TICEH.
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For all the Tory shenanigans and getting it big time from a vast number of Tory voters in the audience on tonight's Question Time .
Jess Philips still managed to wind me up the most with her nauseating accent and the ability to speak at a 100 words per second but still not actually say owt .
Awful woman .
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It's a shame Wallace won't go for it or get the votes as he has that aura of someone sensible, clever and authoritative.
I agree with bst they need someone like that. Like Sunak or not on his policy Truss has mostly proved him right. He has to be the favourite. But they'll all be an improvement on Truss.
I still maintain I'd call an election and let labour have it if I got elected leader. There's no win in the current world.
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the worst place in the world is opposition
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Andrew Brigden already working on his letter to Graham Brady in readiness for the new PM no doubt .
Is there anyone this man has actually backed in the Tory Party ?
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Worth remembering it’s only 4 months since 148 Tory MPs voted against Johnson in a Confidence vote.
How can any of them vote for him now and retain any credibility?
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I have a sneaking desire to see Sunak elected on the basis that he is poison to the libertarian loonies. Maybe, in a dream, the loonies would then upsticks and start a new party - with the might of 55 Tufton Street behind them of course. Given their current shouting about being betrayed by the Conservative Party that would set the scene for the Tories to be split asunder.
BobG
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lettuce pray
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It’s a wonder that the head on the statue of Winston Churchill as ‘it looks’ across at The Palace of Westminster hasn’t drooped onto its chin.
What would have this shower of shite’s response have been if Putin had unleashed a nuclear weapon on NATO soil whilst they were hastily being herded in to vote like sheep to show a vote of confidence in…I mean vote on fracking.
COBRA meeting?
Forget it.
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Its a shame our King doesnt have the authority to turn round & demand a general election.
His country as become a laughing stock & desperately needs sorting out.
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I gather Johnson is currently on holiday in the Caribbean.
That's nice int it? Two months after his holiday in his last days as PM.
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This, from the editor of the Sunday Telegraph just 6 weeks ago, didn't age well.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/07/liz-truss-prove-declinist-remainer-class-humiliatingly-wrong/
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This from Poly Toynbee.
The lexicon is lost for synonyms for mayhem, havoc, chaos and pandemonium. The front pages of all the newspapers and their websites that led the way to this abyss have used them all up. Those who backed Liz Truss, those who engineered Brexit, those forever calling for cuts to the public realm – the Mail even whooping with glee at her catastrophic, market-killing budget – “At last a true Tory budget!” – shouted as loud for her demise, without a heartbeat’s pause for shame or remorse.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/20/truss-gone-tory-kwarteng
Read it, all those that proposed that the left are a cabal of Britain haters this is all on you.
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I suspect the Boris backers are simply the fastest out of the blocks. I'm not convinced he will reach the 100 mark.
If he does come back, it will make the 6 week period under Truss look like a period of stability. His return would be fatal for this parliament and potentially the Tory party.
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For all the Tory shenanigans and getting it big time from a vast number of Tory voters in the audience on tonight's Question Time .
Jess Philips still managed to wind me up the most with her nauseating accent and the ability to speak at a 100 words per second but still not actually say owt .
Awful woman .
Jess Philips wound you up because of her accent (not because of anything she actually said). Oh!!
Down with working class people with accents in Parliament.
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I suspect the Boris backers are simply the fastest out of the blocks. I'm not convinced he will reach the 100 mark.
If he does come back, it will make the 6 week period under Truss look like a period of stability. His return would be fatal for this parliament and potentially the Tory party.
If people are true to what they say, then appointing Johnson will lead to a GE as enough Tory MP's will either defect or vote against him in a confidence vote to force one.
And when have Tory MP's ever lied to us.
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There's a poll out today.
After crashing the economy.
After massively raising mortgage payments.
After announcing the most batshit far right budget in half a century, then ditching it all three weeks later.
After sacking a Chancellor for agreeing with the PM.
After seeing a Home Secretary storm out 6 weeks after starting.
After the absolute shit show of basic competence yesterday.
After the Deputy Chief Whip ran through Parliament last night shouting "f**k this, I've f**king had enough."
After all that, 22% of voters still say they would have voted Tory if there'd been an election today.
I heard one of them in the radio tonight. She said "Well ah think they shud a given 'er a bit more tahm".
How do these people operate in the world? How do they not poke their eyes out with a fork every time they try to eat?
There was a staunch Tory voter on the radio yesterday afternoon. A pensioner in her 80s living in Surrey, she was worried about not being able to afford to heat her house. She was worried she might have to move in with her son and family. She was worried about how expensive the shopping bill was. But she still thought voting Tory would sort it out for her and was hoping Sunak would get in.
The bloke on 5 live tried to probe a bit into why she always voted Tory and what I got from that was, she didn't really know.
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Well at least Johnson can't take the Tory's polling much lower:
NEW: Westminster Voting Intention poll (20 Oct):
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Yes RD ... I heard something similar a few days ago
Small business man (lifelong Tory voter) playing hell about the Truss mess and then said " we need someone to sort this out OR Labour will get back in and we will be right back to square one"
I'd have fallen off my chair if I hadn't been going over ST George's Bridge
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The Mail seems to be swinging behind Johnson, though not overtly promoting him like it did Truss.
The Mail is the in house newspaper of the Tory membership. Again they have the final say over who gets the nod in an online poll on Friday. Once again we are in the hands of an unelected bunch of nobodies.
There are a lot of Johnson backers amongst that lot, many of them hate Sunak who has been branded a snake and with a gentle push from the Daily Mail, I think there is a good chance we'll be back to square one.
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One thing I’m certain of is that Johnson won’t run unless he is certain of winning.
A true Narcissist wouldn’t risk being a loser. (Remember, that he ‘won’ his vote of No Confidence, even though it led to his resignation).
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I suspect the Boris backers are simply the fastest out of the blocks. I'm not convinced he will reach the 100 mark.
If he does come back, it will make the 6 week period under Truss look like a period of stability. His return would be fatal for this parliament and potentially the Tory party.
If people are true to what they say, then appointing Johnson will lead to a GE as enough Tory MP's will either defect or vote against him in a confidence vote to force one.
And when have Tory MP's ever lied to us.
Indeed, Wilts. and from a man with a sodding Barnsley accent :facepalm:
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
My dad was one. Daily Mail reader. Believer in the Class system. Foreigners should go back to their own country. That kind of thing.
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One thing I’m certain of is that Johnson won’t run unless he is certain of winning.
A true Narcissist wouldn’t risk being a loser. (Remember, that he ‘won’ his vote of No Confidence, even though it led to his resignation).
I think it will be decided this weekend, if he gets over the 100 MP threshold to get to the ballot on Monday, then I think it becomes a genuine prospect. They claim he has the backing of 50 already.
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Going back to Truss.
Apparently for being PM, you get an ‘allowance’ of £116,000 pa = FOR LIFE.
Will she have the gall to take it?
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Worth remembering it’s only 4 months since 148 Tory MPs voted against Johnson in a Confidence vote.
How can any of them vote for him now and retain any credibility?
These the same 148 who voted in support of The Greasy Piglet and his pals in the No Confidence vote? Mmmmm!
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Worth remembering it’s only 4 months since 148 Tory MPs voted against Johnson in a Confidence vote.
How can any of them vote for him now and retain any credibility?
These the same 148 who voted in support of The Greasy Piglet and his pals in the No Confidence vote? Mmmmm!
No. The 148 voted against him. 211 voted for him.
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Going back to Truss.
Apparently for being PM, you get an ‘allowance’ of £116,000 pa = FOR LIFE.
Will she have the gall to take it?
Gotcha ... she will say using a term from another Thread
You betcha .... Using one I just made up.
All in it for themselves so she is sure to.
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So there are 2 different 148s ?those who voted to support him in the Parliamentary VONC and those that were against him remaining as PM??
They lost all credibility then
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
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One thing I’m certain of is that Johnson won’t run unless he is certain of winning.
A true Narcissist wouldn’t risk being a loser. (Remember, that he ‘won’ his vote of No Confidence, even though it led to his resignation).
I think it will be decided this weekend, if he gets over the 100 MP threshold to get to the ballot on Monday, then I think it becomes a genuine prospect. They claim he has the backing of 50 already.
Just listening to Nicky Campbell's phone in. They had a couple of Tory members on. They are passionately supportive of Johnson and vehemently anti Sunak. Andrew Bridgen the Tory MP was in despair, pointing out Johnsons failures and how Rish-ak called everything right about Truss.
If this election goes to the final round, it will be a farce. The Tory MPs will vote vote for Sunak and the membership will ignore that and go for Johnson.
It won't be back to square one. We will have Johnson in place but weakened without the full backing of his MPs.
All this at a time when we have an energy crisis causing the biggest financial crisis we have known.
As an outsider I think they need to get a unity candidate in before allowing Johnson to return. I think the person best suited to that as Mordaunt but at the moment she is barely mentioned.
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One thing I’m certain of is that Johnson won’t run unless he is certain of winning.
A true Narcissist wouldn’t risk being a loser. (Remember, that he ‘won’ his vote of No Confidence, even though it led to his resignation).
I think it will be decided this weekend, if he gets over the 100 MP threshold to get to the ballot on Monday, then I think it becomes a genuine prospect. They claim he has the backing of 50 already.
.... and he never resigned either did he ?
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I do wonder if Johnson could do it again, it would be remarkable. But, in a choice between a re-energised Johnson and Labour's Starmer a lot more would vote Tory than we'd typically think. I wouldn't write it off.
I still believe there should be an election and let the people choose.
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So there are 2 different 148s ?those who voted to support him in the Parliamentary VONC and those that were against him remaining as PM??
They lost all credibility then
No Raven. In the VONC, 211 voted for him, 148 wanted him out. So whilst he 'won' the vote, the fact 148 ie 40% of his MPs voted against him firced him out.
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Going back to Truss.
Apparently for being PM, you get an ‘allowance’ of £116,000 pa = FOR LIFE.
Will she have the gall to take it?
But will it have the triple lock?
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Fascinating how we're in the middle of a reboot of Johnson.
The lying, the incompetence, the criminality, the corruption, the ignoring of sexual abuse, the handling of COVID.
None of them happened.
There's a concerted effort going on from his supporters to re-write history. It was all a Remainer/Woke/Lefty plot to undermine him.
Fascinating to watch as a neutral. Terrifying indictment of the robustness of our democracy if it works.
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
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Going back to Truss.
Apparently for being PM, you get an ‘allowance’ of £116,000 pa = FOR LIFE.
Will she have the gall to take it?
But will it have the triple lock?
As it's called an 'allowance', does that mean it's untaxed?
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Going back to Truss.
Apparently for being PM, you get an ‘allowance’ of £116,000 pa = FOR LIFE.
Will she have the gall to take it?
But will it have the triple lock?
As it's called an 'allowance', does that mean it's untaxed?
Whatever it is it would be cheap at twice the price
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
And you really don’t think that some socialists would be more equal than others?
-
The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
And you really don’t think that some socialists would be more equal than others?
I don't think you understand 'Socialism'.
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Rees-Mogg has emerged from his gothic dungeon and sent a guttersnipe with a message announcing his supporting for Mr Johnson.
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
Of course, you're wrong as usual, but then again I don't expect you to be anything other now.
Socialism could only work in a society of honest people. It's great in theory, but in practice, we're far from a society of honest people.
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''Socialism could only work in a society of honest people. It's great in theory, but in practice, we're far from a society of honest people''
As recent events from government have shown.
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So there are 2 different 148s ?those who voted to support him in the Parliamentary VONC and those that were against him remaining as PM??
They lost all credibility then
No Raven. In the VONC, 211 voted for him, 148 wanted him out. So whilst he 'won' the vote, the fact 148 ie 40% of his MPs voted against him firced him out.
You are mixing up 2 seperate votes. The 148 who wanted him out in the party vote, voted to save him in tbe HoC VONC, hence they lost their credibilty then
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Can you rip down gold wallpaper or emulsion over it in 44 days?
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Can you rip down gold wallpaper or emulsion over it in 44 days?
Let's hope she hadn't got around to redecorating, the way things are going Carrieantoinette will be back in there before long.
-
The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
Of course, you're wrong as usual, but then again I don't expect you to be anything other now.
Socialism could only work in a society of honest people. It's great in theory, but in practice, we're far from a society of honest people.
Dishonesty and corruption is disasterous for any society, look at Italy, Greece and those kinds of countries that the UK seems to be modelling itself on these days.
-
The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
And you really don’t think that some socialists would be more equal than others?
I don't think you understand 'Socialism'.
I don’t think you understand reality.
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So there are 2 different 148s ?those who voted to support him in the Parliamentary VONC and those that were against him remaining as PM??
They lost all credibility then
No Raven. In the VONC, 211 voted for him, 148 wanted him out. So whilst he 'won' the vote, the fact 148 ie 40% of his MPs voted against him firced him out.
It was most of his government resigning that forced him out, not the confidence vote.
-
The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
BB doesn't understand percentages, Mugnapper. He clearly thinks he's in the 2%.
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Johnson coming back could lead to long disaster for the Conservatives. He won't stop his antics no matter how many minders they surround him with. In the end, he, and the Conservative Party will get the blame for all the ills that are coming, Brexit related and none Brexit related. The One Nation Tories will be so pissed off that they will either abandon the party, leaving it as a libertarian rump. or rebrand themselves, again leaving it as a libertarian rump. These decades old splits in the Conservative Party are maturing into a serious threat to the continued existance of the Party.
BobG
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
BB doesn't understand percentages, Mugnapper. He clearly thinks he's in the 2%.
Reminds of the edition of Question Time when some foaming Gammon railed that the top 5% of earners should pay more tax. When asked how much he earned, he replied £85,000. It was pointed out to him that that put him in the top 5% of earners and he was incredulous and wouldn't have it lol
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It takes a certain kind of intelligence to be pro-Tory.
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/question-time-salary-row-thursday-17299148.amp
It was £80k not £85k but not bad for a booze addled 60yo.
Interesting to see that he says his £80k salary doesn't put him in the 'top 50%' of earners, never mind top 5% lol
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The most moronic of oxymorons is the ‘Working Class Tory’.
More moronic than a Champagne socialist?
Ooh look BB commenting on a political post. It's been a while. I wonder why lol?
I think you are using the Daily Mail interpretation of the word 'Socialist'.
In a Socialist society, ALL people would be able to afford to drink what they liked (and put their Central Heating on) as the obscene wealth of the top couple of % would be redistributed to help the 98% below them.
Of course, you're wrong as usual, but then again I don't expect you to be anything other now.
Socialism could only work in a society of honest people. It's great in theory, but in practice, we're far from a society of honest people.
Dishonesty and corruption is disasterous for any society, look at Italy, Greece and those kinds of countries that the UK seems to be modelling itself on these days.
think you missed out Spain surprisingly 34th in "my old friend" the corruption index
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021
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There are so many contradictions in this. Just a few weeks ago Johnson was being branded a con socialist, whose economic policies had delivered stagnation. What was required was a true tory budget... Now Boris must return, he's the only one who can save the tory party and Britain... But Sunak is a snake who ruined the economy! But who is Johnson preffefed Chancellor? That's right, Rishi Sunak!
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It takes a certain kind of intelligence to be pro-Tory.
Does that mean you don't qualify?
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There's a genuinely interesting issue here.
Stripped down to their cores, the Right believe that we should accept inequality,the Left argue that we should reduce inequality.
I've always understood why some wealthy people would be left wing. They may be wealthy but be prepared to forgo some of that in the interests of a less divided society.
What I've never understood is why someone from the less wealthy side of society would support a still more unequal society. There's neither any personal, nor any wider societal gain.
The only argument for that would be if the Right wing approach raised the average economic performance by so much more than the left wing approach, that poorer people did better under the Right, even if the rich took most of the spoils. But that's absoltely not what has happened for the past hundred years.
And yet still working class folk vote Tory. I can only conclude that they are masochists, or fantasists who actually think they are (or will be) in the richer group.
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You'd have to ask them, but from what I gather most of them would gladly contribute to the genuinely needy, but not those who jump on the benefits bandwagon.
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It takes a certain kind of intelligence to be pro-Tory.
Does that mean you don't qualify?
It absolutely does.
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There's more to the
right wing than money though BST.
One example is the Brexit vote, where, despite what anyone says, immigration (ie racism) was the tipping point for leave.
And Brexit WAS, as you know, a right wing plan.
A remainer friend of mine is from Boston. He says nobody from there will say that immigration was an issue for them voting leave, despite it being the highest Brexit voting place in the country.
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What it is I think BST is plenty of people believe they are only in a temporary difficulty and soon, things will improve and they'll be much better off. It's an optimistic vision.
Accepting that actually things are stacked against you and maybe you need help, that's defeatist thinking.
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Personally, I call it greed. Greed by greedy people for selfish greedy reasons.
BobG
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For all the Tory shenanigans and getting it big time from a vast number of Tory voters in the audience on tonight's Question Time .
Jess Philips still managed to wind me up the most with her nauseating accent and the ability to speak at a 100 words per second but still not actually say owt .
Awful woman .
Jess Philips wound you up because of her accent (not because of anything she actually said). Oh!!
Down with working class people with accents in Parliament.
Oh dear oh dear and yet your the one bringing class in to it .
Nowt to do with class , I find Miranda Hart and Michael Mcintyre equally nauseating .
Jess Philips justs irritates me , simple as that , the fact she's a Labour mp is neither here nor there .
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There's a genuinely interesting issue here.
Stripped down to their cores, the Right believe that we should accept inequality,the Left argue that we should reduce inequality.
I've always understood why some wealthy people would be left wing. They may be wealthy but be prepared to forgo some of that in the interests of a less divided society.
What I've never understood is why someone from the less wealthy side of society would support a still more unequal society. There's neither any personal, nor any wider societal gain.
The only argument for that would be if the Right wing approach raised the average economic performance by so much more than the left wing approach, that poorer people did better under the Right, even if the rich took most of the spoils. But that's absoltely not what has happened for the past hundred years.
And yet still working class folk vote Tory. I can only conclude that they are masochists, or fantasists who actually think they are (or will be) in the richer group.
Agree to a point Billy but we have to remember the impact Thatcher had on many working class people .
Some did very very well out of her .
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She's...err...get this!
She's doing a Resignation Honours List.
Like she'd been a real PM, rather than an overgrown teenager on work experience.
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What? FFS!
This country is broken.
BobG
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That's f**king ridiculous. Somebody stop her.
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
Tyke, people have been told numerous times on this forum that people vote for the Party and not the leader of the Party.
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I don't think we vote for a PM. I don't think we vote for a party. I think we vote for a manifesto. They make promises to us, we vote on the basis of what they promise to deliver.
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One thing I’m certain of is that Johnson won’t run unless he is certain of winning.
A true Narcissist wouldn’t risk being a loser. (Remember, that he ‘won’ his vote of No Confidence, even though it led to his resignation).
I think it will be decided this weekend, if he gets over the 100 MP threshold to get to the ballot on Monday, then I think it becomes a genuine prospect. They claim he has the backing of 50 already.
.... and he never resigned either did he ?
Yes he did. He went to Balmoral and offered his resignation to the Queen in person.
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
Tyke, people have been told numerous times on this forum that people vote for the Party and not the leader of the Party.
That’s not quite right.
Many people vote for a party because they want its leader to be pm. Technically they vote for the local candidate in the respective party. Of course, plenty of folks do vote for the parties regardless of the personalities.
But many many people, especially in 2019, would have voted Tory because of Johnson or anti-Corbyn.
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
Tyke, people have been told numerous times on this forum that people vote for the Party and not the leader of the Party.
That’s not quite right.
Many people vote for a party because they want its leader to be pm. Technically they vote for the local candidate in the respective party. Of course, plenty of folks do vote for the parties regardless of the personalities.
But many many people, especially in 2019, would have voted Tory because of Johnson or anti-Corbyn.
Oh I agree with all of that IDM but I have seen posts on here over the years, some addressed to me, that said what I said earlier, that people vote for the Party and not the leader.
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You'd have to ask them, but from what I gather most of them would gladly contribute to the genuinely needy, but not those who jump on the benefits bandwagon.
Why do they advocate evading paying their taxes then? Or do they believe people other than them should contribute to the genuinely needy?
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You'd have to ask them, but from what I gather most of them would gladly contribute to the genuinely needy, but not those who jump on the benefits bandwagon.
Why do they advocate evading paying their taxes then? Or do they believe people other than them should contribute to the genuinely needy?
Evading or avoiding wilts.
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
Tyke, people have been told numerous times on this forum that people vote for the Party and not the leader of the Party.
That’s not quite right.
Many people vote for a party because they want its leader to be pm. Technically they vote for the local candidate in the respective party. Of course, plenty of folks do vote for the parties regardless of the personalities.
But many many people, especially in 2019, would have voted Tory because of Johnson or anti-Corbyn.
Oh I agree with all of that IDM but I have seen posts on here over the years, some addressed to me, that said what I said earlier, that people vote for the Party and not the leader.
Constitutionally they vote for neither. They vote for the candidate.
What they think they're voting for is up to them, but it doesn't make it true.
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So how does this work then ?
Truss and the incoming new leader didn't need a mandate from the people because apparently we vote for a party not a PM .
Johnson pops his head back up and now according to some Tories he's the only one with the mandate .
I'll open up on the current situation , it's making me angry , proper angry and it isn't good for my mental health .
I keep saying to myself don't let it get to you but it's hard .
I said to our lass last night if we weren't the ages we are and didn't have so much invested in our grandkids and daughter I'd be out of here and I'm someone whose always loved this country and never wanted to leave it .
Tyke, people have been told numerous times on this forum that people vote for the Party and not the leader of the Party.
That’s not quite right.
Many people vote for a party because they want its leader to be pm. Technically they vote for the local candidate in the respective party. Of course, plenty of folks do vote for the parties regardless of the personalities.
But many many people, especially in 2019, would have voted Tory because of Johnson or anti-Corbyn.
Oh I agree with all of that IDM but I have seen posts on here over the years, some addressed to me, that said what I said earlier, that people vote for the Party and not the leader.
Constitutionally they vote for neither. They vote for the candidate.
What they think they're voting for is up to them, but it doesn't make it true.
And once again, I agree.
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
Belton don't take it to heart too much.its not our fault. We could not know really.
Energy is running out. We are screwed.
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I see Boriswashing has already started by his supporters.
Never forgive, never forget.
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You'd have to ask them, but from what I gather most of them would gladly contribute to the genuinely needy, but not those who jump on the benefits bandwagon.
Why do they advocate evading paying their taxes then? Or do they believe people other than them should contribute to the genuinely needy?
I don't believe they advocate evading paying taxes any more than any other member of the public.
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Maybe a better way to put it wilts is 'tories are happy to pay less tax knowing that many millions will suffer the consequences'
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
It's hanging by a thread I'll give you that Belton but it's recoverable given time .
Broken to me would be 1945 and bankrupt with a people worn out through 6 years of warfare and the country literally in ruins .
Courage , vision and an ability to put it behind us and make people's lives better happened .
We need to revisit how that was achieved in 1945 and have that kind of vision and courage again .
Bottom up economics needs to happen or we are broken .
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The power if money is too entrenched now. You only have to read a lot of the comments in here to see how succesful the right wing propaganda continues to be.
As plenty of folk repeat, the Conservatives may not be in government from time to time, but they are always in power. Solution ? A social revolution at the very least. Trouble is, revolutions tend to go out of control. It would be easy to imagine a thirst for revenge for example. You're right. This country needs serious leadership. But from whence is it comíng???
BobG
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
It's hanging by a thread I'll give you that Belton but it's recoverable given time .
Broken to me would be 1945 and bankrupt with a people worn out through 6 years of warfare and the country literally in ruins .
Courage , vision and an ability to put it behind us and make people's lives better happened .
We need to revisit how that was achieved in 1945 and have that kind of vision and courage again .
Bottom up economics needs to happen or we are broken .
The problem is, Tyke, we are not the same people from post ‘45.
We are f**ked because we are incapable of just getting on with it.
It always has to be someone else’s fault.
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
Belton don't take it to heart too much.its not our fault. We could not know really.
Energy is running out. We are screwed.
I couldn't disagree more RD.
The key decision was in 2010 when we took the Austerity path. We chose a poorer future because of a story spun by a couple of upper class spivs.
The expert economists told us what would happen. A decade of lost growth.
We ignored them.
We could have invested massively in renewables over the past decade. We chose not to. The booming Labour investment in renewables was the first thing cut by Osborne.
Belton will, as ever, do his Bothsides thing, but only one side is to blame for this.
-
This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
It's hanging by a thread I'll give you that Belton but it's recoverable given time .
Broken to me would be 1945 and bankrupt with a people worn out through 6 years of warfare and the country literally in ruins .
Courage , vision and an ability to put it behind us and make people's lives better happened .
We need to revisit how that was achieved in 1945 and have that kind of vision and courage again .
Bottom up economics needs to happen or we are broken .
The problem is, Tyke, we are not the same people from post ‘45.
We are f**ked because we are incapable of just getting on with it.
It always has to be someone else’s fault.
That's the thing though Belton , they are vastly running out of people to blame .
I watch different content , I don't limit myself to things that I agree with .
It's fascinating what's going on with GB News , you could be forgiven for thinking it's parody .
The new enemy is Globalists and The Establishment , I kid you not .
Farage is making a comeback and taking them on , you couldn't make it up .
The crime is removing Truss and reversing the mini budget , you know the same mini budget that tanked the economy .
This is pretty desperate stuff to say the least .
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
It's hanging by a thread I'll give you that Belton but it's recoverable given time .
Broken to me would be 1945 and bankrupt with a people worn out through 6 years of warfare and the country literally in ruins .
Courage , vision and an ability to put it behind us and make people's lives better happened .
We need to revisit how that was achieved in 1945 and have that kind of vision and courage again .
Bottom up economics needs to happen or we are broken .
The problem is, Tyke, we are not the same people from post ‘45.
We are f**ked because we are incapable of just getting on with it.
It always has to be someone else’s fault.
That's the thing though Belton , they are vastly running out of people to blame .
I watch different content , I don't limit myself to things that I agree with .
It's fascinating what's going on with GB News , you could be forgiven for thinking it's parody .
The new enemy is Globalists and The Establishment , I kid you not .
Farage is making a comeback and taking them on , you couldn't make it up .
The crime is removing Truss and reversing the mini budget , you know the same mini budget that tanked the economy .
This is pretty desperate stuff to say the least .
Last night, Farage, Tice, Wooton and that little Kitson Walton were all blaming a Globalist Remainer coup for dethroning Liz Truss.
And there was me thinking she'd just resigned because she was the single most useless waste of skin ever to get within shouting distance of No 10.
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That's why we need Sunak to win. Hopefully, he could so piss off the lunatic fringe and their Tufton Street allies that the Conservative Party splits. The one nation Tories too will be seriously thinking about their political future if Sunak doesn't win.
BobG
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That's why we need Sunak to win. Hopefully, he could so piss off the lunatic fringe and their Tufton Street allies that the Conservative Party splits. The one nation Tories too will be seriously thinking about their political future if Sunak doesn't win.
BobG
I've spoken to an old colleague who is a Tory voter tonight .
I told him Starmer isn't your biggest threat it's Farage , Tufton Street and GB News .
He laughed .
The right wing fruitcakes have the capability of destroying the Conservative Party for good I told him .
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You'll like this .
The Times are reporting that 20k elderly Tory members will be excluded from voting if two leadership candidates emerge .
They don't have any email addresses apparently .
Now they can't even manage their own leadership election which is strange seen as they've had a few of late .
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And yet the Tortoise group managed to register with the Tory party :
Their cat
Two made up people with overseas addresses.
A fictitious person to whom they gave the name Margaret Hilda Roberts.
Seems like, as long as you pay your 25 quid, the Tories are that bothered if you're British, human or even the unmarried ghost of their idol.
You'll still get a vote on who the next PM will be.
I'm sure the FSB aren't very interested in this...
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You'd have to ask them, but from what I gather most of them would gladly contribute to the genuinely needy, but not those who jump on the benefits bandwagon.
Maybe you should call johnson and ask wtf he's doing atm?
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
Belton don't take it to heart too much.its not our fault. We could not know really.
Energy is running out. We are screwed.
I couldn't disagree more RD.
The key decision was in 2010 when we took the Austerity path. We chose a poorer future because of a story spun by a couple of upper class spivs.
The expert economists told us what would happen. A decade of lost growth.
We ignored them.
We could have invested massively in renewables over the past decade. We chose not to. The booming Labour investment in renewables was the first thing cut by Osborne.
Belton will, as ever, do his Bothsides thing, but only one side is to blame for this.
The problem with renewables remains energy storage... That remains unaffordable.
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GCHQ pointed out the weaknesses in the Conservative online voting systems last time. That's one of the reasons they ended up with a long winded postal voting system. I've seen no comments about it this time, but a few weeks ain't very long to validate the membership and to update what was. and sounds like still is, a shit system. I think I'll pay a few hundred quid. Sunak here I come!!!
BobG
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GCHQ pointed out the weaknesses in the Conservative online voting systems last time. That's one of the reasons they ended up with a long winded postal voting system. I've seen no comments about it this time, but a few weeks ain't very long to validate the membership and to update what was. and sounds like still is, a shit system. I think I'll pay a few hundred quid. Sunak here I come!!!
BobG
The Tory membership have no democratic legitimacy anyway.
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There is a hydro system in North Wales where the water tumbles down at times of high demand to provide instant electricity and tumbles down at other times to provide power to lift the water back up again. When enough water is back up top, it's shut down for a bit. Obviously would need capital and the right locations, but there must be more than simply one such place in the whole of the UK surely?!
BobG
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There is a hydro system in North Wales where the water tumbles down at times of high demand to provide instant electricity and tumbles down at other times to provide power to lift the water back up again. When enough water is back up top, it's shut down for a bit. Obviously would need capital and the right locations, but there must be more than simply one such place in the whole of the UK surely?!
BobG
Any hydro we can do is great but unfortunately the UK is not blessed with high enough mountains to make hydro a significant power source.
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Johnson arrives back in the UK this morning. I suspect we'll know whether he is able to hit the 100 nominations mark by the end of the day.
It is increasingly looking like this could be a coronation for Sunak, however.
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The man of the people flies back economy class, accompanied by lots of media.
How many of us think he flew out to Dominica economy class when there were no press there?
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I don’t think it matters who replaces Truss. Are voters going to forget the shenanigans of the last weeks and the crashing of the economy?
Are they going to forget the “guarantee” for energy prices for two years subsequently being cut to 6 months?
Are they going to forget the initial plan to drop the tax bracket for the richest?
Are they going to forget the confusion of our government over pension rises etc.?
One could make an argument that markets had difficulties and interest rates were rising anyway, but all of the above were issues directly affected by the PM and government. “I’m a fighter not a quitter” resigns the following day.
That’s not forgetting Johnson’s lies, partygate etc.
Now before anyone jumps on my post, nowhere here have I suggested that Labour would have done better.
However this government has been a rolling goatf**k since 2019. It’s time for an election.
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ITV news website quoting a source close to the Privileges Committee, ‘the evidence against Johnson is so damning, he could be gone by Xmas, if he becomes PM’.
That’ll make for good entertainment as we sit huddled round a candle in the dark.
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Right. So that stuff I wrote a couple of days ago about Wallace being dependable and sensible.
Looks like it was a right load of ba-baa.
Wallace says he's probably supporting Johnson. Which automatically makes him as much of a nutjob as any of them..
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ITV news website quoting a source close to the Privileges Committee, ‘the evidence against Johnson is so damning, he could be gone by Xmas, if he becomes PM’.
That’ll make for good entertainment as we sit huddled round a candle in the dark.
They couldn't could they?
The Tories. Choose a leader who got booted out of Parliament straight after?
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If Johnson gets the 100 I can't see him being beaten.
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I don’t think it matters who replaces Truss. Are voters going to forget the shenanigans of the last weeks and the crashing of the economy?
Are they going to forget the “guarantee” for energy prices for two years subsequently being cut to 6 months?
Are they going to forget the initial plan to drop the tax bracket for the richest?
Are they going to forget the confusion of our government over pension rises etc.?
One could make an argument that markets had difficulties and interest rates were rising anyway, but all of the above were issues directly affected by the PM and government. “I’m a fighter not a quitter” resigns the following day.
That’s not forgetting Johnson’s lies, partygate etc.
Now before anyone jumps on my post, nowhere here have I suggested that Labour would have done better.
However this government has been a rolling goatf**k since 2019. It’s time for an election.
One thing's for sure, they ain't going to forget how much they have to pay on their mortgage every month to the election.
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ITV news website quoting a source close to the Privileges Committee, ‘the evidence against Johnson is so damning, he could be gone by Xmas, if he becomes PM’.
That’ll make for good entertainment as we sit huddled round a candle in the dark.
They couldn't could they?
The Tories. Choose a leader who got booted out of Parliament straight after?
Forget being booted out of Parliament, he'll struggle to fill all the Government jobs without resorting to more Nadine Dorries types.
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ITV news website quoting a source close to the Privileges Committee, ‘the evidence against Johnson is so damning, he could be gone by Xmas, if he becomes PM’.
That’ll make for good entertainment as we sit huddled round a candle in the dark.
Candle, candle!? I should coco.
You bourgeois person.
We'll be setting fire to copies of the local free paper for light AND warmth.
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I live in Derby and we don't have a free paper, so I'm f#cked lol.
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Not another winter of discontent. Bloody Tories!
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Following Mugnapper's post above this might be of interest:
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/damning-partygate-evidence-could-mean-boris-is-gone-by-xmas-if-he-returns-as-pm-337335/?fbclid=IwAR3_rUpp-02i7XB7r3LKQzFSEW2hHViuJtcgRdSeLIG-nyI8C9W4r_KY_BQ#l9joqu7u9gq4zf6qz4b
BobG
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
Belton don't take it to heart too much.its not our fault. We could not know really.
Energy is running out. We are screwed.
I couldn't disagree more RD.
The key decision was in 2010 when we took the Austerity path. We chose a poorer future because of a story spun by a couple of upper class spivs.
The expert economists told us what would happen. A decade of lost growth.
We ignored them.
We could have invested massively in renewables over the past decade. We chose not to. The booming Labour investment in renewables was the first thing cut by Osborne.
Belton will, as ever, do his Bothsides thing, but only one side is to blame for this.
Billy Blinkers.
And how can you possibly comment on me saying things ‘as ever’ if you only read what I post if some one else quotes it?
Idiot.
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johnson has 126 to his name already ............... 126 fixed penalty notices for events he said never happened.
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A bit after the Lord Mayor's show this one but they were discussing the Truss premiership on R5 yesterday and Adrian Chiles quoted an unknown commentator who said that Truss sacking Quarteng was like Rod Hull sacking Emu. I was parked up at the time fortunately because it totally cracked me up.
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It's spreading. Radio4 rhis morning had a bunch of well informed commentators chatting. The consensus was that if Boris wins:
i) he would do very well to not be suspended from Parliament when the Partygate report arrives and that suspension would kill both him and this government.
Or
ii) if he did survive the Party will split, practically even if not formally. That 80 seat majority would disappear as the One Nation types refuse to support him. That, of course, would force a General Election.
So, the idea of the Conservative Party splitting asunder is now well and truly under discussion. I would still be amazed though if the Tory grandees don't find a way to prevent him winning.
For those with a historical bent 2022 is increasingly starting to resemble 69AD. The year of the four emperors: Galba, Otto, Vitellius and, eventually, Vespasian. That caused a bit of trouble too...
BobG
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Tory (or ex-Tory before Johnson purged him) David Gaulke has had the sort of far-thinkinh idea that we need in this situation.
If Johnson gets elected, Starmer and the LD leader whose name I can never remember should reach out to right-minded Tory MPs.
Say to them, we know that you know that this idiot is going to be a disaster. We know you're hanging on for the sake of your party. But that doesn't help the country.
Join us in a VONC to bring Johnson down and force a GE. In recognition, we will not put up a candidate against any of you with 10k+ majorities.
That's the level of turmoil we are in.
If that doesn't happen, and Johnson does form a Govt, Starmer should call a VONC on Day One. Get the Tories who support the return of that disgrace of a man to formally record their support for the history books.
No hiding place. If you don't formally oppose Johnson, you own his disaster.
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Tories gonna Tory.
Although in fairness, they've rarely ever been as explicit as this in waging Class War on behalf of the rich.
Yesterday's announcement had the feel of a payback clause being actioned by all the wealthy folk who have bankrolled the Tories in general and Truss in particular. The breathtaking audacity of it is quite admirable in some sense.
One thing's sure. Any working class person now has zero excuse for telling themselves the Tories are on their side. Although in sure a few will try to find one.
You know when I say "Tories gonna Tory" and some people in here get upset about political bias.
This is what I mean.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1583739422247628801
It's been happening for years. Most of it quietly done. Most of it unnoticed.
All of it absolutely f**king sickening.
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I've received a letter this morning from the DWP. It tells me I am going to receive 500 quid as my 'Winter Fuel Payment' My affluent Tory friend John will get the same. So will all pensioners. Now, remind me, which section of the population is it that preponderantly votes for right wing parties and right wing nutjobs? I think I recall our esteemed Chancellor telling us all, very recently, that he has to make huge savings. Can you think of a reason why people like John and I should be gifted £500...?
There IS a reason of course...
BobG
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This is quite something too. From ConservativeHome.com. Somebody with his eyes open.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1583534342793760769?s=20&t=nCVq-Tl4AIK1WAzuNRa_vA
BobG
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Was there meant to be a link in your last post, Bob?
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Truss gets £115000 pa for life as an ex PM
Presumably Johnson already bagged his but if he gets to be PM again will he get a further £115000
Asking for a "fiend"
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Sorry Pies. Yes! Now included....
Thanks
BobG
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Truss gets £115000 pa for life as an ex PM
Presumably Johnson already bagged his but if he gets to be PM again will he get a further £115000
Asking for a "fiend"
Come on, Wolfie, there's no need to describe BB as a "fiend".
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Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
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Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
BST?
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Wrong mate. Try again. You'll get it in the end. If you can persuade your eyes to open and your remaining grey cells to stir themselves.
BobG
-
Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
Corbyn ? my old tv aerial was parasitic, it's checklist consisted of 405 or was it 625 lines not a lowly 20 lines
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Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
Nowt worse than a good quiz question ruined by leaving the answer underneath.
-
Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
Nowt worse than a good quiz question ruined by leaving the answer underneath.
Post of the week.
-
Robert Hare. Genuine well known and reputable Canadian psychologist. He has a list of symptoms of psychopathy. You can look it up here:
https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
But to save you the trouble I've copied it here:
1) Loquacity / Superficial charm.
2) Egocentrism / Great feeling of self-worth.
3) Need for stimulation / Tendency to boredom.
4) Pathological lying.
5) Cunning / Manipulative.
6) Lack of remorse and guilt.
7) Emotionally shallow.
8) Callous / Lack of empathy.
9) Parasitic lifestyle.
10) Lack of behavioral control.
11) Promiscuous sexual behavior.
12) Early behavioral problems.
13) Lack of realistic long-term goals.
14) Impulsiveness.
15) Irresponsibility.
16) Inability to accept responsibility for own actions.
17) Several brief marital relations.
18) Juvenile delinquency.
19) Revocation of conditional release.
20) Criminal versatility.
I'm sure I know of some bloke who ticks every single one of those boxes.... Can anyone remind me?
BobG
Nowt worse than a good quiz question ruined by leaving the answer underneath.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Class.
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Tory (or ex-Tory before Johnson purged him) David Gaulke has had the sort of far-thinkinh idea that we need in this situation.
If Johnson gets elected, Starmer and the LD leader whose name I can never remember should reach out to right-minded Tory MPs.
Say to them, we know that you know that this idiot is going to be a disaster. We know you're hanging on for the sake of your party. But that doesn't help the country.
Join us in a VONC to bring Johnson down and force a GE. In recognition, we will not put up a candidate against any of you with 10k+ majorities.
That's the level of turmoil we are in.
If that doesn't happen, and Johnson does form a Govt, Starmer should call a VONC on Day One. Get the Tories who support the return of that disgrace of a man to formally record their support for the history books.
No hiding place. If you don't formally oppose Johnson, you own his disaster.
Reach out and join them? Much as they did last time, even the 148 who voted no confidence in the Tory internal VOC voted for him in the Parliamentary VONC, what makes you think things have changed?
Also should Johnson win the PM vote this time he can table a motion to have the Priviliges Committee investigation to cease with a majority vote in Parliament
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This country is broken. I totally agree.
But. We are broken because of ALL of those people who reckon they represent ‘us’.
Our parliament us a total f**k up, from PM to Shadow PM, from left backbencher to right.
Starmer will win the next election, and for what?
As a nation, and a generation, we are just f**ked.
I am truly sorry for what I will leave my children to deal with.
We're heading for a recession which will arrive sooner and be deeper than it should have been due to recent Tory shenanigans. 2023 is going to be a very tough year for lots of folk.
But..... this is not something the UK will be suffering in isolation. The majority of Western democracies will suffer similarly if not more.
The fundamentals of the UK economy are still comparatively strong compared to many other similar countries (look at Italy for instance)
The UK economy is too small to be immune from global economic headwinds
However from 2024, assuming no further global crises, there is no reason why, with inflation under control, interest rates stabilised and with sensible governing, the UK shouldn't have a comparatively strong recovery and have an economically successful 2nd half of this decade.
I'm quietly confident in this country's middle and longer term economic prospects.
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Sky News saying that Boris will get the 100, and when it's put to the membership, all the signs are that he'll trounce Sunak.
Don't shoot the messenger.
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Did sky say how they knew Steve?
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Apparently Johnson and Sunak had a meeting this evening. I doubt very much if they were discussing what position Johnson would have in a Sunak government.
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Did sky say how they knew Steve?
What a f*cking stupid question.
You just get worse.
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Did sky say how they knew Steve?
What a f*cking stupid question.
You just get worse.
there is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people aye Steve, the Guardian is only using numbers from those that have pledged support, as I asked what is Sky using?
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Did sky say how they knew Steve?
What a f*cking stupid question.
You just get worse.
there is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people aye Steve, the Guardian is only using numbers from those that have pledged support, as I asked what is Sky using?
Exactly the same, those that have pledged support, however, seeing as Sky have excellent journalists like Beth Rigby, Sophie Ridge, Jon Craig, and many more, with their ears close to the ground in Westminster, they know exactly what's happening behind the scenes.
There's not even any guarantee that Boris will go through with it yet.
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Apology accepted, did they name them or is it a secret?
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Sydney. Have you ever been down to a billabong?
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This should keep you amused for a while Col
https://australian.museum/exhibition/sharks/
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I don't believe that Johnson has many more than 70 nominations at this stage.
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If there are 360 ish and we have theoretical 121, 56 and 27 it's a long way to that 360
Where are the Bravermans and Shapps ?
Wonder if lots of the MPs will not pledge for any Candidate ?
Wonder if MPs have the guts to resign the Whip and immediately become Independent MPs
I saw a supposed offer to those with 10000 + majority's that did cross the Chamber that they would go unchallenged in the GE they would theoretically have "forced"
As Derek & Clive said so many years ago (but very apt) " is this any way to run a f*****g Ballroom"
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Exactly 0 chance of that offer being true Wolfie.
Even if Labour & Lib Dems didnt stand, Greens, Reform and other independents would - and they would mosst likely loose. Labour voters woud never vote for them - and Tory voters would be unlikely to as they would be the 'traitors' who brought the party down.
They would have to defect to have a chance of staying on.
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If there are 360 ish and we have theoretical 121, 56 and 27 it's a long way to that 360
Where are the Bravermans and Shapps ?
Wonder if lots of the MPs will not pledge for any Candidate ?
Wonder if MPs have the guts to resign the Whip and immediately become Independent MPs
I saw a supposed offer to those with 10000 + majority's that did cross the Chamber that they would go unchallenged in the GE they would theoretically have "forced"
As Derek & Clive said so many years ago (but very apt) " is this any way to run a f*****g Ballroom"
Roger Gayle said last night he would resign the whip if Piglet was re elected
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If it’s Sunak v Starmer in 2024 it doesn’t matter to anyone who wins out of them 2. Just the winning side.
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If it’s Sunak v Starmer in 2024 it doesn’t matter to anyone who wins out of them 2. Just the winning side.
This is the sort of nonsense that has put us in this energy crisis.
One example of why it is nonsense.
Labour has a detailed plan for investment in the zero carbon energy approach that we need.
Sunak presided over a long term Tory policy of not even supporting home insulation.
On a more economically fundamental issue, Labour is committed to a neo-Keynesian approach which includes Govt borrowing to invest in productive capacity. Sunak had repeatedly said that his priority is paying back the debt. That is a profound difference of approach. Anyone who hadn't realised that over the past decade and a half had been living under a rock.
This "they're all the same so there's no point" line is THE most idle political comment anyone can come out with. And it is dangerous. Be sure it clears the path for the beguiling voices of extremists who promise something (anything) different.
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The problem with sunak although he may be a steadier hand his experience was as chancellor not as leader which begs the question would he allow a new chancellor the freedom to do their job or would he 'know better'
The tory party is far from a united team and carry a lot of baggage, they have been in an uncivil war for so long would they be capable putting the knives away or in each other.
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I'd hoped for a bit better from Chris Mason after he replaced that disaster Kuenssberg as the BBC Political Editor.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1583818749647687680
Looks like he's another one that sees his job as tweeting whatever message Johnson wants to put out.
Why doesn't he preface that with "We know from bitter experience that Johnson is barely on nodding terms with the truth, but...:
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johnson is like one of those bladeless fan thingy's that reputedly generate more air by 'looking good'
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If it’s Sunak v Starmer in 2024 it doesn’t matter to anyone who wins out of them 2. Just the winning side.
This is the sort of nonsense that has put us in this energy crisis.
One example of why it is nonsense.
Labour has a detailed plan for investment in the zero carbon energy approach that we need.
Sunak presided over a long term Tory policy of not even supporting home insulation.
On a more economically fundamental issue, Labour is committed to a neo-Keynesian approach which includes Govt borrowing to invest in productive capacity. Sunak had repeatedly said that his priority is paying back the debt. That is a profound difference of approach. Anyone who hadn't realised that over the past decade and a half had been living under a rock.
This "they're all the same so there's no point" line is THE most idle political comment anyone can come out with. And it is dangerous. Be sure it clears the path for the beguiling voices of extremists who promise something (anything) different.
Fair enough BST. But your average voter will see 2 centrists and will make their mind up based on the characters of the candidates and a few differences on policies / talking points. I appreciate your expertise, but it is the job of each candidate to detail these differences in a clear way.
The conservatives have committed to net zero 2050?
If you someone wants to insulate their home, they can do it. It’s not the government’s job to do everything.
Correct me if I’m wrong but Sunak has spent the most of any post-war chancellor and tax is at its highest for % of GDP at present post war also? Not very conservative.
Starmer doesn’t come across as a brave or principled man to me, he will just say what he thinks it takes to get to no.10.
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sunak - eat out to get covid, that sunak?
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sunak - eat out to get covid, that sunak?
Do you live in Aus?
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sunak - eat out to get covid, that sunak?
Do you live in Aus?
Yes, but if I pay my dues I can pick who would be pm, so can my dog and my budgie
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sunak - eat out to get covid, that sunak?
Do you live in Aus?
Yes, but if I pay my dues I can pick who would be pm, so can my dog and my budgie
I know, it just helps me to understand your covid take is all.
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Everyone knows the covid 'take' nc the tories under johnson right royaly f**ked up and 10s of thousands died that didn't need to, I guess it will all come out again over any election campaign.
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It's the "I proudly brought in Carl Heneghan to persuade Johnson we didn't need a lockdown in Autumn 2020, thereby causing maybe 50,000 avoidable deaths" Sunak.
And yes, he is actually on record taking credit for that. He used it in his election campaign this summer.
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Everyone knows the covid 'take' nc the tories under johnson right royaly f**ked up and 10s of thousands died that didn't need to, I guess it will all come out again over any election campaign.
Yep a close family member of mine was one. But I don’t blame that on anyone. Except perhaps China, but that’s wasted energy.
Look at current excess deaths all cause mortality. NHS backlog, negative health outcomes from lockdown? All of which would have gotten worse with Labour (point in case below).
https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1417185971284496384?s=46&t=ycvN_3-k081q1zkCcycIRw
This is another debate anyway and boils down to your philosophy on life.
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No need to nc, all the evidence has been brought out and done to death you might say already, johnson and his team have their fingerprints all over it.
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No need to nc, all the evidence has been brought out and done to death you might say already, johnson and his team have their fingerprints all over it.
No need to what?
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Nc
Your insulation comment gets to the core of every libertarian fallacy. You simplify it down to the detailed cause and effect and ignore the wider consequences.
Here it's clear cut. If you insulate your house and I don't, YOU think you get the deserved advantage and what I do hurts only me.
But that's not correct.
Because I need to use more energy than I otherwise would, the renewable energy that we have available is not sufficient. So we have to import gas to make up the difference. But Putin has quintupled the cost of gas. So YOU end up paying more than you should because of MY failing.
That's precisely what libertarians don't get. They assume that people's actions affect only them. They don't get the complex dependencies and sensitivities to input decisions of a big, non-linear system like a society.
Sometimes we need Govt to take decisions in the wider interest. Here, if Govt had spent more on insulation, EVERYONE would be better off.
That was Lab's policy in 2010. That was one of the first ones the Tories ditched.
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To go over it all again
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PS.
Churchill spent more than any other PM.in history.
He was a Tory.
It was circumstances, not preference.
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sunak - eat out to get covid, that sunak?
It's now "Eat out to Heat up"
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Not sure they'd want everyone taking their snap to the Danum Library.
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks "What an utter Kitson you turned into"?
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Boris has 100 backers, but they go to another school.
If he really had 100, he'd have announced he's running already. Looking increasingly like a Sunak coronation is on the cards.
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks "What an utter Kitson you turned into"?
That level of bending whichever way the wind blows is shameless beyond belief. Boris shouldn't ever be in power again, but does Zahawi really think a bit of toadying now will be enough to get back in his good books? Given his character he must know he will shaft him first chance he gets. Unreal
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Boris has 100 backers, but they go to another school.
If he really had 100, he'd have announced he's running already. Looking increasingly like a Sunak coronation is on the cards.
He's now asking Mordaunt to step aside, he must be panicking.
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Even though I'm from the left Rebecca Long Bailey needs to shut the feck up and wind her neck in .
This isn't the time Rebecca , the only show in town is getting this wretched and corrupt government out of power and in the opposition benches for a decade minimum .
The country has to come first over ideology at this time .
Shut up please .
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It's looking increasingly likely that it's over for Johnson. The clown show may be coming to an end.
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It's now official. He's not going to run, stating that he can't run a party that isn't united.
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Sunak it is then.
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He can't run a party as he didn't get the numbers, he ran a divided party previously
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It seems the Tory party is united in not wanting him back as leader.
I wonder how Mr Zahari and Rees Mogg are feeling right now?
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The next question is, who will Sunak appoint as Chancellor? Will he stick with Hunt?
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He's not going to run as he didn't get anywhere near the number of backers required to do so. A bullshit artist to the last.
I notice he never had the b*llocks to formally announce he was running either.
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It seems the Tory party is united in not wanting him back as leader.
I wonder how Mr Zahari and Rees Mogg are feeling right now?
Plotting Sunak's demise I reckon , Sunak's got huge problems dealing with the right wing nut jobs .
If he raises taxes watch those fruitcakes get to work .
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The next question is, who will Sunak appoint as Chancellor? Will he stick with Hunt?
Stick with Hunt I reckon Steve .
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johnson's deal with sunak and maudant was ....... I'll be leader and you won't
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The next question is, who will Sunak appoint as Chancellor? Will he stick with Hunt?
Yep
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks "What an utter Kitson you turned into"?
Ahem.....
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584280847141638144
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The next question is, who will Sunak appoint as Chancellor? Will he stick with Hunt?
I can't see why he wouldn't, they have pretty much the same policies. But who knows, maybe he promised it to the Laarry the cat. Nothing would suprise me now from this lot.
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I'd hoped for a bit better from Chris Mason after he replaced that disaster Kuenssberg as the BBC Political Editor.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1583818749647687680
Looks like he's another one that sees his job as tweeting whatever message Johnson wants to put out.
Why doesn't he preface that with "We know from bitter experience that Johnson is barely on nodding terms with the truth, but...:
Boris Johnson. Liar right up to the bitter end. Let him now f**k off to whatever luxury resort some corrupt t**t will pay for and never besmirch our politics ever again.
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks &quot;What an utter Kitson you turned into&quot;?
Ahem.....
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584280847141638144
And he's another one that should never be given a chance to be involved in governing the country again. Get the lot of them smoked out.
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Is this the first time Johnson has withdrawn?
If Stanley had done so 58 years ago, the UK would be a far healthier place today.
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GB News in meltdown right now .
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Johnson said he will go back to Uxbridge and help the people of his constituency deal with the onset of winter and the cost of living.
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I always said that Zahawi was the worst of a bad bunch.
Christ Almighty the man has no shame.
Love some of the replies to his tweet BTW.
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Is this the first time Johnson has withdrawn?
If Stanley had done so 58 years ago, the UK would be a far healthier place today.
that was a bit below the belt ;)
Morduant in my world is now going to get 100 votes - assuming we dont have a new contender and it goes to the members doesn't according to the earlier polls she beat Sunak -- (now his photographic skills of taking photos of next door neighbours has been "exposed" )
??
Sunak is 16/1 on to win from 20/1 on -- so i have laid Sunak to lose the profit (cashed out) I made on Boris
it's a chance to make a lot of money worth taking. - for nothing.
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I liked the one that accused him of supporting more people today than universal credit
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You could be onto a winner there CLH.
The pensioners of Tunbridge Wells made it clear they didn't like Sunak (for I'm sure a very good political reason, nudge nudge) but a lovely looking fresh faced gal from good British stock might be just up their street.
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks &quot;What an utter Kitson you turned into&quot;?
Ahem.....
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584280847141638144
And he's another one that should never be given a chance to be involved in governing the country again. Get the lot of them smoked out.
Are they all the same then?
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You could be onto a winner there CLH.
The pensioners of Tunbridge Wells made it clear they didn't like Sunak (for I'm sure a very good political reason, nudge nudge) but a lovely looking fresh faced gal from good British stock might be just up their street.
"nudge nudge"? Would you care to explain that?
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The term nudge nudge first appeared in a Python sketch about two men who met in a pub to discuss identifying trees from a good way off.
It quickly led onto one of them asking if the others wife was a goer, nudge nudge, and progressed from there
It was very funny.
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Johnson said he will go back to Uxbridge and help the people of his constituency deal with the onset of winter and the cost of living.
Aye. I'm sure he will put in 80 hour weeks for them.
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You and Sydney with your ‘ayes’.
Billy - you would support Hitler if he told you he liked you.
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Nadhim Zahawi
How it started:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1544950219657330688
How it progressed:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1554001185895587840
How it's going:
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584099350048694273
Do you reckon he ever looks at himself in the mirror and thinks &amp;quot;What an utter Kitson you turned into&amp;quot;?
Ahem.....
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1584280847141638144
And he's another one that should never be given a chance to be involved in governing the country again. Get the lot of them smoked out.
From the BBC website.
Moments before Johnson made his announcement, an article was published in the Telegraph written by Zahawi titled: "Get ready for Boris 2.0, the man who will make the Tories and Britain great again."
However, the article is no longer available and link the to the web address reads: "404 – Sorry, page not found."
What an utter bell end.
How could anyone vote for a moral vacuum like this?
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Here he is.
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1584288236205068288
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Here he is.
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1584288236205068288
i don't do twitter but entered this
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewood
is the account suspended ?
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The term nudge nudge first appeared in a Python sketch about two men who met in a pub to discuss identifying trees from a good way off.
It quickly led onto one of them asking if the others wife was a goer, nudge nudge, and progressed from there
It was very funny.
..... s-a-a-a-y no more Squire
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Here he is.
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1584288236205068288
i don't do twitter but entered this
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewood
is the account suspended ?
That account looks to be. But it's not the one BST quoted (you spelt it wrong). Just click on the link.
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This could be the 1st time Johnson has ever pulled out!
Wonder if the deal between Sunak and Johnson is for Johnson to be given a seat in HoL? Gets him away from having to be elected and represent a constituency and all the work that is supposed to go with that. Leaves him to live his life of idle luxury picking up free holidays and 150k a speech as and when, just a thought
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GB News in meltdown right now .
I thought meltdown was their default position on everything?
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Come on Glyn, that's a bit harsh. I think GB News viewers are very level-headed.
That's how they can drool from both corners of their mouths at the same time.
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You could be onto a winner there CLH.
The pensioners of Tunbridge Wells made it clear they didn't like Sunak (for I'm sure a very good political reason, nudge nudge) but a lovely looking fresh faced gal from good British stock might be just up their street.
"nudge nudge"? Would you care to explain that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPYdzIt7p7s&ab_channel=LBC
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Mordaunt concedes so Sunak is PM.
Yay!! Now we get to watch the richest man in Parliament (£730 million and counting), increase taxes for the rest of us whilst also slashing Public Services.
We are truly living in blessed times.
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Is it time to start a 'Sunak' thread?
I'm sure Johnson's lot will be throwing mud before too long.
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Well found Kato. That backs up my not so cryptic point very well.
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... yeah lets use his Anagram
Hi-risk Anus
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Mordaunt concedes so Sunak is PM.
Yay!! Now we get to watch the richest man in Parliament (£730 million and counting), increase taxes for the rest of us whilst also slashing Public Services.
We are truly living in blessed times.
Yes indeed. Sunak's version of Austerity will make Osborne look like Titus Salt.
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Well found Kato. That backs up my not so cryptic point very well.
You're most welcome. I loath racists and the harm that they cause. Here's the followup to the video showing the awful effect people like that racist clown can have on people.
http://youtu.be/oWpA8JuDxWA
There is no place in a grown up society for racism, no place at all. Sadly, and curtesy of people like Nigel Farage and our right wing media, it's becoming endemic in this country!
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I've started a Rishi thread but was so tempted to call it 'Hi risk Anus (anag)'
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Well found Kato. That backs up my not so cryptic point very well.
Exactly. It confirms what I thought, that it wasn't very cryptic at all, because I'm well aware of what "nudge nudge" means without it having to be explained to me.
I was asking about how it was used in this context, because I don't want to be so offensive as to accuse you of being so offensive as to accuse the pensioners of Tunbridge Wells of being racist.
Are we on the same page now?
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Did you listen to the link Kato posted?
Kind of confirmed what I alluded to.
Sunak had far more support among Tory MP's than Truss but somehow everyone knew Truss would win when it went to the members.
Strange that.
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Did you listen to the link Kato posted?
Kind of confirmed what I alluded to.
Sunak had far more support among Tory MP's than Truss but somehow everyone knew Truss would win when it went to the members.
Strange that.
Of couse I listened to it, and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know; that racism and xenophobia are utterly and totally abhorrant. However, racism has to be proven, if it is to be called out, not based on "nudge nudge" assumptions.
As Tyke said, the Tories have now had 3 female leaders, and one Asian leader. The Labour Party have had nothing but white male leaders.
There couldn't(nudge nudge) be anything misogynistic(nudge nudge), or racist(nudge nudge) about the Labour Party could there?
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There is one thing Steve the tories have had many more leaders aye?
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SS
It's impossible to prove that a large swathe of Tory party members are racist, but judged on how they have voted, and now we hear that thousands of them are considering cancelling their membership, its a fair bet.
The Tories did a good job of making people believe that Corbyn is a racist (which is frankly laughable) so don't talk to me about race and the Tories.
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I confess it never crossed my mind that Rishi being anointed would lead to mass membership cancellations. I've not seen it reported so I'd appreciate confirmation Tommy. If there is a noticeable number of members resigning then, for me, it can only reinforce the feeling that such Conservative members must be divorced from reality. I'm not a Rishy fan. Smarmy and uber privileged. But he's their only option if they want to survive as long as long as the next planned GE. Less likely to split the party than the Lunatic Tendency and more likely to display stability and competence than Boris or any of the nebbishes. So to throw their toys out of their pram now, NOW, shows how bankrupt the Conservative Party is today in both the rest of the Parliamentary membership and in the nation too.
BobG
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/24/fuming-tory-members-threaten-leave-denied-leader-vote/
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/24/fuming-tory-members-threaten-leave-denied-leader-vote/
Quote in that article from a Tory party member.
"You hear people say that Conservative Party members should not be able to vote because they made a mistake last time, but that forgets the fact that they were given a Hobson’s choice last time.
“They were only asked to choose between Truss and Sunak, even though other candidates such as Kemi Badenoch and Suella Braverman would have been more popular."
Jesus wept.
He's saying the Tory members voted for Truss because two even more barking mad options were not available to them.
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Conveniently forgetting May was foisted on them without a vote, or a peep out of them that time.
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That's confirmed then truss is from another planet 'keep on cutting taxes' is the advice for the new bunny.
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That's confirmed then truss is from another planet 'keep on cutting taxes' is the advice for the new bunny.
Sorry that this is clearly upsetting for you Sidders,
Just how does all of this affect you down under!
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That's confirmed then truss is from another planet 'keep on cutting taxes' is the advice for the new bunny.
Sorry that this is clearly upsetting for you Sidders,
Just how does all of this affect you down under!
whatever I say you'll either ignore it or disagree, why don't you give your opinion on the advice sprot
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Lest we forget how horrific the Truss Govt was. The one cheered on by the swivel eyed loons on the right of the Tory party.
https://mobile.twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1588226701699448832
That graph is from the BoE yesterday. 100 basis points is 1%.
The Truss apologists are still saying that Govt interest rates shot up because of "global factors". The BoE are saying that nearly all the rise, 2% in total, was due to Trussonomics.
Some perspective. 2% increase in the interest rate that Govt has to pay on its debts is equal to about £50bn. That's money pissed away by the idiotic Truss/Kwarteng/Tufton Street experiment.
When Hunt announces the massive spending cuts and tax rises he is planning, and when the Tories try to blame it on "global factors", it's your choice if you believe them.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63927502
Just...words!
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63927502
Just...words!
Thats all ok then, he can carry on as normal insulated from the energy crisis with his over inflated earnings and his ministerial pension, while the rest of us struggle with our energy bills, and increased mortgage payments for some, and 10% inflation, because he got carried away, he ought to be carried away, straight to prison!