Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Filo on October 07, 2023, 09:06:14 am
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Hamas has launched a massive attack on Israel this morning, I think this attack has been coming through Israel’s constant settling in Palestian territory and oppression of the Palestinian people, I expect Gaxa will now be bombed into submission, this conflict will never end
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There is a very militant right wing extremism manifest itself in recent years, hell bent on annexing all of Palestine and getting rid of the indigenous Palestinians ,
It’s that bad that many moderate Israelis are looking at leaving for good.
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No doubt the US and the media will be right behind Israel.
They can't do owt wrong due to their history as Corbyn found out.
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No doubt the US and the media will be right behind Israel.
They can't do owt wrong due to their history as Corbyn found out.
Unfortunately Tommy ,anybody who launches a pre emptive strike on a neighbouring Country firing 7,000 missiles in a matter of a few hours, and then sending thousands of heavily armed fighters into several towns near their territory and murdering anybody they can find,plus kidnapping people to be used as human shields, deserve all they get! And that I suspect will be Armaghedon
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Looks like the Palestinians are using thousands of off road motorcycles and Quads and have infiltrated deep into Israeli terriorty, I would imagine that there is going to be a bloodbath.
Coincidentally doesn’t this fall on the anniversary of the Yomkipur War in October 1973.
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Just announced that today is the 50th Anniversary of the Yom Kipur war, another example of why study of History is extremely important!
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Some Arab reporter announced Hamas has 50,000 rockets in Storage in Gaza, so there is 43,000 more to come! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Israelis have watched the Ccctv footage coming out of Gaza and have already plotted the co ordinates if the high rise buildings used to launch the missiles!
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Absolutely pointless, they can't possibly hope to achieve anything !
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Regarding what is happening in Israel/Palestine
Russia's deputy foreign minister said "it goes without saying that we always call for restraint"
You couldn't make it up!
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Some Arab reporter announced Hamas has 50,000 rockets in Storage in Ghana, so there is 43,000 more to come! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Israelis have watched the Ccctv footage coming out of Gaza and have already plotted the co ordinates if the high rise buildings used to launch the missiles!
If there are really 43,000 missiles in storage in Ghana I expect them to go bank very shortly
If the Hamas put down their weapons they’d be piece, if Israel put down theirs they’d be genocide
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Israel will always have this. Their actions have been inhuman from the start of their occupation. Their tactic of flat out retaliation does nothing but breed a whole generation of future conflict and death.
It'll be interesting to see Starmer's comments on this, and the almost certain lockdown on any pro Palestinian comment or demo at the conference.
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Some Arab reporter announced Hamas has 50,000 rockets in Storage in Ghana, so there is 43,000 more to come! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Israelis have watched the Ccctv footage coming out of Gaza and have already plotted the co ordinates if the high rise buildings used to launch the missiles!
If there are really 43,000 missiles in storage in Ghana I expect them to go bank very shortly
If the Hamas put down their weapons they’d be piece, if Israel put down theirs they’d be genocide
Think for a moment why that might be. Not that there'd be peace ever whilst Israel continues with it's current illegal policies, which isn't far from genocide, most certainly apartheid.
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Little mention by the various leaders about the horror of the Palestinians killed, targetted, in retaliation. Leaders including Starmer.
What is a concern beyond the obvious coming death toll in Israel/Palestine, is what Israel will do to Iran, and the backlash from that, as well as possible US involvement there.
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The UK has skin in the game, with our relationship to Israel;
https://www.declassifieduk.org/how-the-uk-military-supports-israels-combat-operations-against-palestinians/
Article from 2021, but very important.
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Reuters claiming Israel have shut off electricity to Gaza, which would be a war crime.
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I'm seeing a very large scale attack by Hamas, much more than the missiles the BBC seems too focus on. Hamas captured several tanks, destroyed others, using drones very effectively, having taken a chunk of terrotory and even possibly a couple of F16s captured and taken into Gaza?
Some vids included in this recent youtube analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrTmZfwdNnc
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Whilst the loss of life is saddening I can't help thinking the Israelis have had it coming .
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Social media coming from the Gaza Strip is damming, a fair haired woman hauled out of the back of a 4x4 her hands tied behind her back dripping with blood then brutally manhandled back into the front of the vehicle by a baying mob of Palestinian men, not helping their cause in the slightest!
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I do wonder if we're already in WW3.
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Some Arab reporter announced Hamas has 50,000 rockets in Storage in Ghana, so there is 43,000 more to come! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Israelis have watched the Ccctv footage coming out of Gaza and have already plotted the co ordinates if the high rise buildings used to launch the missiles!
If there are really 43,000 missiles in storage in Ghana I expect them to go bank very shortly
If the Hamas put down their weapons they’d be piece, if Israel put down theirs they’d be genocide
It has to be more than just a ceasefire there has to be agreement on the occupied territories and Israel's right to exist.
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I've just seen a video supposedly of Palestinians dragging the corpse of an Israeli soldier out of a tank.
This "Israeli soldier" is so obviously a dummy. The way the body folds double at hips is a massive give away.
There's even news outlets showing videos of helicopters being shot down by Palestinians. This footage is from a video game.
Why the need to use crisis actors and fake footage in a time like this I'll never know.
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Some Arab reporter announced Hamas has 50,000 rockets in Storage in Ghana, so there is 43,000 more to come! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Israelis have watched the Ccctv footage coming out of Gaza and have already plotted the co ordinates if the high rise buildings used to launch the missiles!
If there are really 43,000 missiles in storage in Ghana I expect them to go bank very shortly
If the Hamas put down their weapons they’d be piece, if Israel put down theirs they’d be genocide
It has to be more than just a ceasefire there has to be agreement on the occupied territories and Israel's right to exist.
And Palestines right to exist too?
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Of course DO, that will come about with any agreement about the territories, there, imho needs to be a good friday type negotiations and agreement
edit
there are continuing negotiations ..............
''Applauding Recent Diplomatic Talks between Israelis, Palestinians, Speakers in Security Council Urge Parties Commit to Agreements''
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15238.doc.htm
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
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Looks like that Hamas has got several thousand troops into Israel and infiltrated 13 townships.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
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And at root it's all down to us. The Balfour Declaration started all this. 1926. Almost 100 years of conflict now.
BobG
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
Genocide
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
For accuracy in this thread nc, I think you should define which land you mean and who are the owners.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
For accuracy in this thread nc, I think you should define which land you mean and who are the owners.
The land that Bristol Red is talking about, I was replying to his post.
Hamas want to destroy Israel and have previously denied the holocaust.
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Sorry, I don't bother reading many of BRR's posts for obvious reasons, but you must know what he's talking about nc
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
If only you thought the same about the theft of Ukrainian land.
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Both sides have to compromise if there’s ever going to be peace in Palestine, both sides won’t budge, Israel provoke things by constantly building settlements in occupied land, and Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel, peace is never going to happen while this situation remains. What will happen now is Gaza will be turned to rubble
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The scale of this attack is quite shocking.
It feels part of a narrative. There is one major country that benefits if shit starts kicking off all over the place.
That's why Azerbaijan has been given the green light to ethnically cleanse Nagorno- Karabakh.
It's why Serbia has been given the green light to start sabre-rattling over Kosovo.
And it's no coincidence that Hamas is funded by Iran who are in bed with...
Join the dots and the arrow points in one direction.
I detest what Israel has done to Palestinians. But massacring innocent civilians on this scale is not the answer.
The single thing it will do is to strengthen Putin's hand by dividing those who stand against Putin.
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Anyone who still doubts that Starmer had to root out some of the fellow travellers that infested the Labour Party, just look at what ex MP Chris Williamson is saying today. Glorying in this uprising that has already resulted in hundreds of civilians dying.
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I do wonder if we're already in WW3.
As sproty will tell you from his study of history, until the last century most major wars started in the middle east. Even one of those had the objective of controlling the oilfields in the middle east.
What he can also tell you is that there is a very strong and influential radical right-wing Christian movement in the US. The objective of which is to start a major war in the middle east in order to bring about Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. You might not believe this - but they do.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
For accuracy in this thread nc, I think you should define which land you mean and who are the owners.
The land that Bristol Red is talking about, I was replying to his post.
Hamas want to destroy Israel and have previously denied the holocaust.
Jewish Zionists want to destroy Palestine because they believe all biblical land should be controlled by Israel.
Not an easy situation is it.
Not all Palestinian's support Hamas and not all Jewish Israelis are Zionists. But there are enough of each to make compromise impossible.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
The land can be shared. Tho some Israelis are against peace more than Hamas, total fruit loops, they'd probs be imprisoned. There is a lot of work done between the various semites there, getting them together, healing the divide. But, Israel constantly harms this. Without that harm, without killing Palestinians, without robbing them, Hamas wouldn't exist.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
For accuracy in this thread nc, I think you should define which land you mean and who are the owners.
The land that Bristol Red is talking about, I was replying to his post.
Hamas want to destroy Israel and have previously denied the holocaust.
Jewish Zionists want to destroy Palestine because they believe all biblical land should be controlled by Israel.
Not an easy situation is it.
Not all Palestinian's support Hamas and not all Jewish Israelis are Zionists. But there are enough of each to make compromise impossible.
I do wonder if we're already in WW3.
As sproty will tell you from his study of history, until the last century most major wars started in the middle east. Even one of those had the objective of controlling the oilfields in the middle east.
What he can also tell you is that there is a very strong and influential radical right-wing Christian movement in the US. The objective of which is to start a major war in the middle east in order to bring about Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. You might not believe this - but they do.
More concerning is that 51% of all. Jews live in the US and control vast financial resources They hold a massive sway in Politics.
Ask yourself why the US has stored Billions of Dollars worth of Arms and Ammunition in Israel?
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The disjointed Israeli Government has had little or no control over Right wing factions stealing land from Palestinians and building on it.
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Nanny Biden has openly threatened any other power in the Region not to get involved
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The scale of this attack is quite shocking.
It feels part of a narrative. There is one major country that benefits if shit starts kicking off all over the place.
That's why Azerbaijan has been given the green light to ethnically cleanse Nagorno- Karabakh.
It's why Serbia has been given the green light to start sabre-rattling over Kosovo.
And it's no coincidence that Hamas is funded by Iran who are in bed with...
Join the dots and the arrow points in one direction.
I detest what Israel has done to Palestinians. But massacring innocent civilians on this scale is not the answer.
The single thing it will do is to strengthen Putin's hand by dividing those who stand against Putin.
Wow, BST has had a fuse. Can someone introduce him to the United States? It is the country that is behind this problem. There is no doubt about this whatsoever. The problem is the state of Israel, it's government, it's section of looney population, and the people that sponsor it, that support it.
This includes Starmer who is weilding his his authoritarian sword right now at the Labour Party conference. No free speech there. Something he has already instilled through the party over the last year. His Zionist sponsors will be proud and ever more generous.
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The disjointed Israeli Government has had little or no control over Right wing factions stealing land from Palestinians and building on it.
It's part of their policy not to. The government are totally responsible for that. This is one significant cause of what just happened.
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Anyone who still doubts that Starmer had to root out some of the fellow travellers that infested the Labour Party, just look at what ex MP Chris Williamson is saying today. Glorying in this uprising that has already resulted in hundreds of civilians dying.
How hollow of you BST. Yes, the extreme statements needed dealing with, some members needed educating (how society progresses - a socialist thing), and a few needed expelling. Starmer took this far far far past reason and logic and legality. You are backing totalitarianism here.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
If only you thought the same about the theft of Ukrainian land.
Two totally different situations. There was a long standing problem that had pretty much been held in check until the west poured petrol onto it over many years, the touch paper being lit before the coup. And then more fuel added, all for nefarious reasons. Yes Russia trod over the line, but that was as sure as day folling night with what the west did.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
Genocide
Which is why nearly all Paestinians, and many Jews, want to "share" the land. Coming up with the genocide comment does nothing but fuel this, right here, and from a right wing, actually facist, ultra Zionist perspective - is that who you are?
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From what I can make out, apart from this being an action to scupper the Israeli "new middle east" thing with Saudi, Egypt, Sudan, and... Jordan?, on the ground the Palestinians seemed to focus on the military bases and police stations, grabbing over 40 vehicles including tanks, heavy arms, and ammunition. Also many vehicles, including tanks, put out of action. Seems they also shot down helicopters, four of them?
Hostages were also took, obviously, as they are bargaining chips. And no doubt some civilians tried to defend themselves and so were taken out, and some Palestinians were probably just charged up and wanted to kill. War is crap.
Israel is promoting the angle of Palestinians murdering civilians, even seen paid ads with this on an online game I was playing which was weird, as that appeals to the mainstream narrative. Apart from that being outright hypocrisy it's far from the central story.
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He can't do it.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1710632920950489167
He cannot look inside himself and unreservedly condemn the killing and kidnapping of civilians.
Those of you on the left who complain about the Corbynistas being blindsided and neutralised, grow up. This is who he is.
"The unfolding events."
Jesus f**king wept.
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From what I can make out, apart from this being an action to scupper the Israeli "new middle east" thing with Saudi, Egypt, Sudan, and... Jordan?, on the ground the Palestinians seemed to focus on the military bases and police stations, grabbing over 40 vehicles including tanks, heavy arms, and ammunition. Also many vehicles, including tanks, put out of action. Seems they also shot down helicopters, four of them?
Hostages were also took, obviously, as they are bargaining chips. And no doubt some civilians tried to defend themselves and so were taken out, and some Palestinians were probably just charged up and wanted to kill. War is crap.
Israel is promoting the angle of Palestinians murdering civilians, even seen paid ads with this on an online game I was playing which was weird, as that appeals to the mainstream narrative. Apart from that being outright hypocrisy it's far from the central story.
What about the 250+ innocent civilians at the music festival? Quite a few who weren't even Israeli.
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A poor interview but the Palestinian Ambassador spoke very clearly about the problem. Worth a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8TGW10jkCM
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He can't do it.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1710632920950489167
He cannot look inside himself and unreservedly condemn the killing and kidnapping of civilians.
Those of you on the left who complain about the Corbynistas being blindsided and neutralised, grow up. This is who he is.
"The unfolding events."
Jesus f**king wept.
He's 100% correct. Will you condem Israel for its crimes, not least the current genocide on Gaza.
You are so right wing and increasingly plastic. Or is your beef because Corbyn beat you at conkers when you were a kid.... or a few years back?
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
The land can be shared. Tho some Israelis are against peace more than Hamas, total fruit loops, they'd probs be imprisoned. There is a lot of work done between the various semites there, getting them together, healing the divide. But, Israel constantly harms this. Without that harm, without killing Palestinians, without robbing them, Hamas wouldn't exist.
There’s problems on both sides.
But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.
Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?
If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?
Both sides want to destroy each other.
I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.
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The scale of this attack is quite shocking.
It feels part of a narrative. There is one major country that benefits if shit starts kicking off all over the place.
That's why Azerbaijan has been given the green light to ethnically cleanse Nagorno- Karabakh.
It's why Serbia has been given the green light to start sabre-rattling over Kosovo.
And it's no coincidence that Hamas is funded by Iran who are in bed with...
Join the dots and the arrow points in one direction.
I detest what Israel has done to Palestinians. But massacring innocent civilians on this scale is not the answer.
The single thing it will do is to strengthen Putin's hand by dividing those who stand against Putin.
I know that Israel have been hesitant to take sides on the Ukraine issue due to them having a fair share of Russians in their population.
But I think Ukraine came out in support of Israel in recent days. Would they do that if this was part of a Putin master plan?
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He can't do it.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1710632920950489167
He cannot look inside himself and unreservedly condemn the killing and kidnapping of civilians.
Those of you on the left who complain about the Corbynistas being blindsided and neutralised, grow up. This is who he is.
"The unfolding events."
Jesus f**king wept.
BST, I know that with hindsight you have abandoned Corbyn but only four years ago you were campaigning in a way that would have had him as PM had Labour won.
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There’s problems on both sides.
But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.
Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?
If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?
Both sides want to destroy each other.
I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.
I don't know what happened at the music festival. Holding it nearby Gaza is a bit daft. I can't see I'm being an apologist, can't you point out where? I detest war and violence, but see how it happens, and see how people in power can avert it in almost all cases. Many people in power, Israel being the prime examle, breed conflict. They are one of the most evil governments on the planet, and have been since their very earliest beginings. Even more evil are their sponsors worldwide, including how they weaponise antisemitism, zionism, Judaism - hypocrisy, obviously.
How many UK citizens died as a result of ISIS? Yes, Bush and Blair - though in reality it was clearly the people that pulled their strings - willingly created carnage and destruction. And the UK and US do that endlessly worldwide. A UK or US citizen travelling anywhere has the results of that coming at them - it's just how the world works. How are you thinking differently? Moreso the UK citizen who was in the IDF - job description.
Your hypothetical scenario is making a lot of assumptions, most of which wouldn't be there if that happened. What you say gives support to the Israeli hold on the situation which is racist and worse.
There are lots of positive projects in Israel and the Palestinian territories where Jews and Moslems, and Christians, and Israelis, and Palestinians are brought together in positive ways. This is what happened in Ireland too. It can be done. It won't be easy. First major stage is to halt the insane facist Zionists who are to this day being given permission to illegally take Palestinian land. Then, all land taken in the West Bank should be returned, and those who perpetrated the crimes be punished. However, that won't happen because these mental extreme Zionists hold power, and the US won't dare interfer. So we have this, deaths at music festivals, thousands of Palestinians murdered in what is genocide.
One theory I have heard, may or may not be true, is Israel powers knew about the plans of Hamas and let it happen just so they could get stuck in and try to destroy them. They won't ever destroy them, but some in the government will up their falling ratings, including arch facist Netanyahu.
I'll keep saying it too, and it is totally on topic here - Starmer supports these psychos. he is the same proven in his lockdown on free speech, and his inability, or deliberate perversity, and bowing to his Zionist paymasters, to not distinguish between antisemitism and anti Israel. That's not even to mention that Palestinians are Semites by definition. "Human Rights Lawyer" - he's twisted beyond Orwellian proportions.
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
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I really wish that were true, Tommy.
But the party has to represent a set of principles that remain consistent, although the policies to deliver them may be revisited.
The issue now is a large divide between sections of Labour on key principles.
Israel is a very good example. Starmer belongs to Labour Friends of Israel, which is a whitewash of the government of Israel, and its role in the continued occupation of Palestine.
I don't see how these positions can reconcile.
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This is Corbyn.
https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1711022592247619972
Cannot find it in himself to explicitly condemn the murder of 250 people at a concert. Then gets stroppy when he's questioned on it.
Utterly shameful. But not surprising.
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.
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There won't be peace. Without worldwide pressure, which won't ever happen so long as the US remains strong, Israel won't budge the slightest bit on its racist apartheid position, never mind recompense the Palestinians for the theft of their land, the murder of their people, and the oppression put upon them.
Without US funding, the state wouldn't exist. It should have been put in an area in the States somewhere.
What do you think happens to the 6m Jewish people if you give the Palestinians the land?
Genocide
Which is why nearly all Paestinians, and many Jews, want to "share" the land. Coming up with the genocide comment does nothing but fuel this, right here, and from a right wing, actually facist, ultra Zionist perspective - is that who you are?
No
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BBC a series maps show how changes have occurred over time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567
The borders cannot be reset to pre 1917 times, but what should be recognised is who had control of the land and how it changed, who was involved and I think bears responsibility and therefore should make every effort to bring about a resolution.
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No
Glad to hear it :laugh: So what are you arguing for? A continuation of the current power structure? Or an attack on Gaza as is being proposed - which will inevitably extend to the West Bank and Lebanon - to wipe out the militants? Or.... ?
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BBC a series maps show how changes have occurred over time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567
The borders cannot be reset to pre 1917 times, but what should be recognised is who had control of the land and how it changed, who was involved and I think bears responsibility and therefore should make every effort to bring about a resolution.
I think the issue there is how much the Zionists, Jewish and Christian (a hugely powerful lobby), are allowed to dictatate. Whilst the US has Israel as its Middle East state, it seems they will be given that power. And we will see more bloodshed, potentially even a war that could result in nukes.
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Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.
Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
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Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.
Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
Nope and BST said the same. History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means. Where does it stop or end?
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Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.
Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
Nope and BST said the same. History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means. Where does it stop or end?
Just hope to goodness it isn't China and Taiwan.
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Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.
Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
No, but has been so for a long time, those countries that proclaim to be leaders of the free world should have put real pressure on both sides, for Israel to retreat to its pre 1967 position and for Palestinians to accept that Israel has the same right as the Palestinians to exist.
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
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Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.
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Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.
And round and around we go.
The sooner the world ends its reliance on oil, the sooner we can find something else to fight about.
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Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.
And round and around we go.
The sooner the world ends its reliance on oil, the sooner we can find something else to fight about.
This is all about hydrocarbons isn't it?
Russia, Iran, Saudi. Oil and gas.
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There was a chance at something like a fair settlement in the mid to late 90s, when Israel had (for them) moderate leaders like Rabin, Peres and Barak and the PLO under Yasser Arafat were reaching out to find an agreement. That came tantalisingly close, but the talks failed. Israel lurched to the far right under Netanyahu and the PLO fell apart and was superceded by the Iran-backed hard liners in Hezbollah and Hamas.
It's desperately sad that the moderates on both sides couldn't contain the hard liners. There won't be another chance like that in our lifetimes. God alone knows where this ends up now.
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Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.
Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
Nope and BST said the same. History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means. Where does it stop or end?
Whether or not Putin has pushed this, who knows. But he's rubbing his hands at the idea of trouble spreading. It makes it so much harder for the moderates everywhere to stand against him, because there are so many flash points.
As I said earlier, it takes a fool not to see that he's engineered the attacks against the Armenians, and the bristling troublemakers in Belgrade. It all fits his aims.
God help us if Trump wins next year and comes back as a vengeful Putin stooge.
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Isn't Trump a bit divided now?
He's cold on Ukraine but he's red hot in support of Israel.
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Interview giving a Palestinian view:
https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1711073290368765952/vid/avc1/1280x720/Uj9zEbIc9CsStXWp.mp4?tag=16
Worth a listen!
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The Daily Mail is claiming tonight that Iran is behind this attack.
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The Daily Mail is claiming tonight that Iran is behind this attack.
I don't usually go with the Mail, but that's a no brainer. Without Iran's support, Hamas doesn't exist.
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The horror now is that Israel is going to send land forces into Gaza and there will be a bloodbath. They are going to go all out to destroy Hamas.
It's hard to get the scale of what's happened this weekend. After the peace moves collapsed in 2000, the second Intifada saw about 1000 Israelis and 3000 Palestinians killed in 4 years. There's been something like that many Israelis killed in the past 48 hours, and I fear there will be a hell of a lot more killed on both sides in the coming weeks and months.
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Iranian president is calling on other Muslim nations to support Palestinians... That's probably a direct appeal to Saudi.
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Heather Cox Richardson 'writes a daily blog ''Letters from an American'' on substack 'a miracle' is an exaggeration but she may be worth a read.
''The Boston College professor offers a valuable primer on Republican extremism – but also progressive achievement
In a media landscape so polluted by politicians addicted to cheap thrills (Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Orange Monster) and the pundits addicted to them (Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Steve Bannon), the success of Heather Cox Richardson is much more than a blast of fresh air. It’s a bona fide miracle''
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/07/democracy-awakening-review-heather-cox-richardson-us-history
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/october-7-2023
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There’s problems on both sides.
But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.
Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?
If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?
Both sides want to destroy each other.
I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.
I don't know what happened at the music festival. Holding it nearby Gaza is a bit daft. I can't see I'm being an apologist, can't you point out where? I detest war and violence, but see how it happens, and see how people in power can avert it in almost all cases. Many people in power, Israel being the prime examle, breed conflict. They are one of the most evil governments on the planet, and have been since their very earliest beginings. Even more evil are their sponsors worldwide, including how they weaponise antisemitism, zionism, Judaism - hypocrisy, obviously.
How many UK citizens died as a result of ISIS? Yes, Bush and Blair - though in reality it was clearly the people that pulled their strings - willingly created carnage and destruction. And the UK and US do that endlessly worldwide. A UK or US citizen travelling anywhere has the results of that coming at them - it's just how the world works. How are you thinking differently? Moreso the UK citizen who was in the IDF - job description.
Your hypothetical scenario is making a lot of assumptions, most of which wouldn't be there if that happened. What you say gives support to the Israeli hold on the situation which is racist and worse.
There are lots of positive projects in Israel and the Palestinian territories where Jews and Moslems, and Christians, and Israelis, and Palestinians are brought together in positive ways. This is what happened in Ireland too. It can be done. It won't be easy. First major stage is to halt the insane facist Zionists who are to this day being given permission to illegally take Palestinian land. Then, all land taken in the West Bank should be returned, and those who perpetrated the crimes be punished. However, that won't happen because these mental extreme Zionists hold power, and the US won't dare interfer. So we have this, deaths at music festivals, thousands of Palestinians murdered in what is genocide.
One theory I have heard, may or may not be true, is Israel powers knew about the plans of Hamas and let it happen just so they could get stuck in and try to destroy them. They won't ever destroy them, but some in the government will up their falling ratings, including arch facist Netanyahu.
I'll keep saying it too, and it is totally on topic here - Starmer supports these psychos. he is the same proven in his lockdown on free speech, and his inability, or deliberate perversity, and bowing to his Zionist paymasters, to not distinguish between antisemitism and anti Israel. That's not even to mention that Palestinians are Semites by definition. "Human Rights Lawyer" - he's twisted beyond Orwellian proportions.
Sometimes it’s what someone doesn’t say that speaks volumes.
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.
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No
Glad to hear it :laugh: So what are you arguing for? A continuation of the current power structure? Or an attack on Gaza as is being proposed - which will inevitably extend to the West Bank and Lebanon - to wipe out the militants? Or.... ?
No what I am saying is that if the land was shared, as stated in the opinion that I answered it would lead to genocide of those Jews living there. Those of Hamas et Al don’t want peace they want to rid this world of the Jewish people eventually it will be all other religions. That’s why over the last few decades the Jewish communities of Arab countries have all but disappeared and that why the Christian people of Egypt are continuously persecuted. These people don’t want any religion other than Islam in these areas/countries.
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.
On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.
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And at root it's all down to us. The Balfour Declaration started all this. 1926. Almost 100 years of conflict now.
BobG
Did you read up on this nc? there are no innocents in this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.
Maybe Palestinian gunmen wouldn't have run amok if someone had listened to them politically?
Which has always been Corbyn's point in most political flashpoints. Because quite clearly the opposite hasn't worked.
But well done for voting against him - we all owe you a great debt seeing how well the country is doing.
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I read last night that the Labour hierarchy have banned anyone within it's ranks from referring to Israel as an apartheid state .
Which is strange seen as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch describe it in such terms , if caging 2.5m people in an area the size of Barnsley , denying them a voice , human rights suppressing and genocide , removing water and electricity isn't apartheid then you have to wonder what is .
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.
On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.
More people with their selective views on history. The Declaration of the State of Israel was an unauthorised, unilateral declaration by Ben Gurion in defiance of a UN resolution.
Before then, Jews and Arabs had lived side by side in Palestine for centuries.
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I read last night that the Labour hierarchy have banned anyone within it's ranks from referring to Israel as an apartheid state .
Which is strange seen as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch describe it in such terms , if caging 2.5m people in an area the size of Barnsley , denying them a voice , human rights suppressing and genocide , removing water and electricity isn't apartheid then you have to wonder what is .
Gaza is not part of Israel. Never has been. Nor is the West Bank.
There are Arab parties in the Israeli Parliament.
Amnesty don't call Israel an 'apartheid state':
The report does not set out to compare Israel with South Africa under apartheid or to determine whether Israel is an “apartheid state”—a concept that is not defined in international law. Rather, the report assesses whether specific acts and policies carried out by Israeli authorities today amount in particular areas to the crimes of apartheid and persecution as defined under international law.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
What the situation in the middle-east currently needs are people in UK political parties inflamming it & misrepresenting it.
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.
Maybe Palestinian gunmen wouldn't have run amok if someone had listened to them politically?
Which has always been Corbyn's point in most political flashpoints. Because quite clearly the opposite hasn't worked.
But well done for voting against him - we all owe you a great debt seeing how well the country is doing.
I'm not for one moment condoning Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but there's a degree of chicken and egg here.
As I said earlier, the moderates on both sides were swept out many years ago. Israel treats the Palestinians like sub humans. The Palestinians are run by people who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's not as simple as all the evil being on one side and all the victimhood on the other.
As for Hound, he seems to be going through one of those regular periods where he feels the need to convince himself I'm a hypocrite, and he doesn't bother checking his facts. That's why I have him on Ignore.
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Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.
On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.
Missing out some quite important context there!
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Like I say. I have no axe to grind for the way Israel oppresses the Palestinians.
But read this.
Every last word.
And if you're giving a pass to the Palestinians for what they did this weekend, maybe spend a little time examining the state of your soul, eh?
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account
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''Our name, OCHA, stands for the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. In the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), as elsewhere around the world, we coordinate emergency response to save lives and protect people in humanitarian crises. We advocate for effective and principled humanitarian action by all, for all''
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
More context, casualties since 2008
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Let's face it the response from Israel will probably kill 10 times the amount of civilians than Hamas did, justified or not.
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And at root it's all down to us. The Balfour Declaration started all this. 1926. Almost 100 years of conflict now.
BobG
Did you read up on this nc? there are no innocents in this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Thanks Sydney, I knew about it but I didn’t realise how vague and ambiguous the declaration was. And what a mess it has helped to make.
In an ideal world it would be scrapped and everyone there would hold hands and live happily ever after.
Historically to me it seems this land has forever been changing hands and has always been contested so the arguments about who owns it could go on forever.
The horrors of the Holocaust made the Jews feel that they needed a safe haven where they could live without fear of persecution. Am I correct in saying that the Jews had a strip of coast and the Galilee prior to that declaration when the land was under British / Ottoman rule?
In 1947, the United Nations voted to partition Palestine into two states, one for Jews and one for Arabs. The plan was accepted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it and chose war.
I know there’s no innocents in this and I’m not really one side or the other. This thread was just going in a very anti-Israel direction so I’m looking to add some balance. It’s also a strange time to come out in defence of Palestine / Hamas.
Israel has come out on top in those subsequent wars. I don’t agree with that state expansion, occupation and attacks of civilians from their side at all. But we can’t pretend that had the Arabs come out on top, that they wouldn’t have done the exact same. Like I and gloster said, it would be genocide.
And it’s interesting that people such as Corbyn and the left claim to be against all violence but can’t bring themselves to condemn a medieval-style rape and massacre specifically.
Like Raven has just said, the ensuing loss of life after Palestine’s recent action will be horrific.
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.
Maybe Palestinian gunmen wouldn't have run amok if someone had listened to them politically?
Which has always been Corbyn's point in most political flashpoints. Because quite clearly the opposite hasn't worked.
But well done for voting against him - we all owe you a great debt seeing how well the country is doing.
I'm not for one moment condoning Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but there's a degree of chicken and egg here.
As I said earlier, the moderates on both sides were swept out many years ago. Israel treats the Palestinians like sub humans. The Palestinians are run by people who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's not as simple as all the evil being on one side and all the victimhood on the other.
Spot on
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The Palestinians had a chance of getting somewhere with this, if only they had merely shown restraint and targeted Military personnel only, they would now hold the moral high ground. All they are holding now is the cinders of their civilians and rubble of the remains of Gaza.
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The Palestinians had a chance of getting somewhere with this, if only they had merely shown restraint and targeted Military personnel only, they would now hold the moral high ground. All they are holding now is the cinders of their civilians and rubble of the remains of Gaza.
The Palestinians are not Hamas and Hamas do not represent all Palestinians. About 15% of Palestinians are Christian btw. Misrepresenting them like tghat does nothing to an understanding of the situation.
That's why Hams took hostages. So that when the IDF attack they will undoubtably kill their own.
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The 'root causes' of this week's atrocities.
Worth a read if you are interested in understanding the circumstances that lead to the mass murder of hundreds of civilians by hundreds of terrorists. Probably worth skipping if you have never been there but think you know it all anyway:
https://davidaaronovitch.substack.com/p/awake-in-the-night?r=2817om&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.
Maybe Palestinian gunmen wouldn't have run amok if someone had listened to them politically?
Which has always been Corbyn's point in most political flashpoints. Because quite clearly the opposite hasn't worked.
But well done for voting against him - we all owe you a great debt seeing how well the country is doing.
I'm not for one moment condoning Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but there's a degree of chicken and egg here.
As I said earlier, the moderates on both sides were swept out many years ago. Israel treats the Palestinians like sub humans. The Palestinians are run by people who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's not as simple as all the evil being on one side and all the victimhood on the other.
As for Hound, he seems to be going through one of those regular periods where he feels the need to convince himself I'm a hypocrite, and he doesn't bother checking his facts. That's why I have him on Ignore.
BST are you denying that you supported Corbyn right up to the point of Labour losing in 2019 and that since then you have consistently had a downer on him.
Seriously.
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The Palestinians had a chance of getting somewhere with this, if only they had merely shown restraint and targeted Military personnel only, they would now hold the moral high ground. All they are holding now is the cinders of their civilians and rubble of the remains of Gaza.
The Palestinians are not Hamas and Hamas do not represent all Palestinians. About 15% of Palestinians are Christian btw. Misrepresenting them like tghat does nothing to an understanding of the situation.
That's why Hams took hostages. So that when the IDF attack they will undoubtably kill their own.
So all those thousands of rockets taken into dozens and dozens of high rise buildings, all of the launching facilities being constructed on said structures and all those thousands of Terrorists massing together to launch their offensive went totally unnoticed by several hundred thousand folks living amongst it all! Surely somebody could have used a Social media system to surreptitiously warn the Israelis, which would have resulted in several thousand Israelis, waiting ready over the border! To get rid of the Hamas problem!
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By the way Wilts which famous World War Two hero honed his martial skills,protecting Israeli settlers in Palestine in the late Thirties from systematic attacks by Palestinian
Terrorists?
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The 'root causes' of this week's atrocities.
Worth a read if you are interested in understanding the circumstances that lead to the mass murder of hundreds of civilians by hundreds of terrorists. Probably worth skipping if you have never been there but think you know it all anyway:
https://davidaaronovitch.substack.com/p/awake-in-the-night?r=2817om&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
That is a depressingly brilliant piece.
Yes, root causes exist, but if we cling to one and ignore every other one, we are cementing in the hatred for generations to come.
One of our greatest historians lamented the way in which other historians used to reach further back into "root causes" to reduce Germany's blame for the War.
He said that the root cause of every road traffic death was the invention of the internal combustion engine. But we didn't prosecute Daimler and Benz when someone drove recklessly and killed a pedestrian.
Same here. You can be aware of the root causes of this weekend, but nothing justifies the bestiality of what the attackers did.
Nothing.
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The 'root causes' of this week's atrocities.
Worth a read if you are interested in understanding the circumstances that lead to the mass murder of hundreds of civilians by hundreds of terrorists. Probably worth skipping if you have never been there but think you know it all anyway:
https://davidaaronovitch.substack.com/p/awake-in-the-night?r=2817om&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Ineresting read, thanks. However it is largely ignoring the whole Zionist movement which is THE root, something that has it's roots in both some extremist Jews, but also amongst a large influential bunch of very messed up Christians mainly in the US and UK and a few other places.
Zionism always was a nonsense - here we see it's results. Giving Jews a "safe" place to be was never the main motivation for this, but if anyone is seeing that, reacting to the holocaust for example, then Palestine was not the best place for safety. There were other options, just not ones acceptable to the zealot zionists.
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The Palestinians had a chance of getting somewhere with this, if only they had merely shown restraint and targeted Military personnel only, they would now hold the moral high ground. All they are holding now is the cinders of their civilians and rubble of the remains of Gaza.
The Palestinians are not Hamas and Hamas do not represent all Palestinians. About 15% of Palestinians are Christian btw. Misrepresenting them like tghat does nothing to an understanding of the situation.
That's why Hams took hostages. So that when the IDF attack they will undoubtably kill their own.
So all those thousands of rockets taken into dozens and dozens of high rise buildings, all of the launching facilities being constructed on said structures and all those thousands of Terrorists massing together to launch their offensive went totally unnoticed by several hundred thousand folks living amongst it all! Surely somebody could have used a Social media system to surreptitiously warn the Israelis, which would have resulted in several thousand Israelis, waiting ready over the border! To get rid of the Hamas problem!
Whatever anyone's feelings about the justification of launching an attack from Gaza on the occupying forces of Israel, when using the US populist propaganda term of terrorist for what is a Palestinian army, it is feeding the conflict. Both armies should obey the rules around engagement, neither do.
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The 'root causes' of this week's atrocities.
Worth a read if you are interested in understanding the circumstances that lead to the mass murder of hundreds of civilians by hundreds of terrorists. Probably worth skipping if you have never been there but think you know it all anyway:
https://davidaaronovitch.substack.com/p/awake-in-the-night?r=2817om&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
That is a depressingly brilliant piece.
Yes, root causes exist, but if we cling to one and ignore every other one, we are cementing in the hatred for generations to come.
One of our greatest historians lamented the way in which other historians used to reach further back into "root causes" to reduce Germany's blame for the War.
He said that the root cause of every road traffic death was the invention of the internal combustion engine. But we didn't prosecute Daimler and Benz when someone drove recklessly and killed a pedestrian.
Same here. You can be aware of the root causes of this weekend, but nothing justifies the bestiality of what the attackers did.
Nothing.
As alarmist observer, what are you achieving? What is your aim?
The roots of things are usually multilayered. This conflict is very much so. The solution is NEVER going to be what the Netanyahu regime has done, less still what it is doing. So there goes the prime criticism of blame, or root. The deeper root as I said above is Zionism. That needs adressing. It is not being adressed as the modern day Zionists hold a lot of power and dictate (note the word there) what happens.
Starmer is a Zionist, as are many others in our political sphere on all sides. Many of them have very dodgy links with Zionists in other places. Some of them receive funding from them.
Equating antisemitism with antizionism is the most recent extremist entry into our culture. It is definitively wrong. A lawyer, for instance, would know this.
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
There are plenty of reasons to suspect Iran and Russia would want and endorse this attack now but such direct action as Wagner involvement would be really shocking.
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Egypt reimposing border controls on Gaza, therefore not allowing refugees to leave on that side either.
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
There are plenty of reasons to suspect Iran and Russia would want and endorse this attack now but such direct action as Wagner involvement would be really shocking.
Rather than tenuous, unsubstantiated, imaginary, fake shocking. What IS shocking is the outright support for Israel from so many people, governments, organisations, for the occupying force that is Israel to "defend itself" in the way it wants to.
Evil.
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
There are plenty of reasons to suspect Iran and Russia would want and endorse this attack now but such direct action as Wagner involvement would be really shocking.
Rather than tenuous, unsubstantiated, imaginary, fake shocking. What IS shocking is the outright support for Israel from so many people, governments, organisations, for the occupying force that is Israel to "defend itself" in the way it wants to.
Evil.
Bit like Ukraine defending itself from an invading force, this time Israel is defending itself from a huge terrorist attack. And every country has the right to defend itself from attack.
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
There are plenty of reasons to suspect Iran and Russia would want and endorse this attack now but such direct action as Wagner involvement would be really shocking.
Rather than tenuous, unsubstantiated, imaginary, fake shocking. What IS shocking is the outright support for Israel from so many people, governments, organisations, for the occupying force that is Israel to "defend itself" in the way it wants to.
Evil.
Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
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Reports on social media (unsubstantiated as yet) of Wagner involvement.
There are plenty of reasons to suspect Iran and Russia would want and endorse this attack now but such direct action as Wagner involvement would be really shocking.
The only claim on this score I've seen is the Ukraine Govt saying Wagner trained Hamas fighters.
That's no more direct involvement than us training Ukrainian forces to take on Russia.
I'm absolutely no drawing a moral equivalence there, just looking at degrees of separation.
By the way, anyone doing what BRR did and brushing off the attack on the music festival as "some Hamas fighters getting out of control" is beneath contempt.
That was planned, deliberate mass terrorism. The Hamas fighters targeted that event. They came in on microlitres. They deliberately shot dozens of people. They kidnapped dozens more. They gang raped and mutilated several women, parading their corpses in the streets in Gaza.
Similarly, videos have emerged of Israeli toddlers and young kids having been kidnapped, taken to Gaza and kept in cages or beaten by other kids.
This isn't a "heat of war" issue. It's deliberate, planned bestiality. Anyone who tries to justify it is a moral abomination.
-
Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
-
Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
The taking of hostages, and torture are war crimes.
That's what you are justifying.
You are utterly disgusting.
-
Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
The minute you query if rape is proportionate , the rest of it could be Nobel prize winning but I'm not reading it , you truly will defend the indefensible won't you.
wilts link shows how confusing and difficult it is to " choose a side with the aims of both extremes seemingly unable to reach any sort of agreement, yet as long as it's the " oppressed " that's ok is it ?
-
...anyone doing what BRR did and brushing off the attack on the music festival as "some Hamas fighters getting out of control" is beneath contempt.
That was planned, deliberate mass terrorism. The Hamas fighters targeted that event. They came in on microlitres. They deliberately shot dozens of people. They kidnapped dozens more. They gang raped and mutilated several women, parading their corpses in the streets in Gaza.
Similarly, videos have emerged of Israeli toddlers and young kids having been kidnapped, taken to Gaza and kept in cages or beaten by other kids.
This isn't a "heat of war" issue. It's deliberate, planned bestiality. Anyone who tries to justify it is a moral abomination.
Have you got evidence it was planned, the festival scenario? It is unlikely it was, just that it was there on the day as anything else was. Of course the holiday aspect was known. What happened was appalling. Equally appalling is what Israel continually does to innocent Palestinians. That doesn't make it right at all, but... but it is what happens when you dish it out.
To focus on it as an attrocity is right. To ignore context is reactive, small minded, breeds hate, feeds more killing. Either you're just being brief, aren't bright enough to realise that, or are dumping your personal anger on the situation - wake up. Calling it bestiality is accurate, but again no context with that is being thick and part of the problem in demonising one side, which is exactly what you are doing.
Giving context is not justifying, it's understanding. Only that way can change come about. But that is waaaay beyond your tabloid nouse.
-
BRR.
Shut up and take a look at yourself.
You've said hostage taking is a proportionate action. You've bent over backwards to justify gang rape and mutilation. You are bending over backwards to justify a clearly planned civilian massacre.
You are doing exactly what political extremists have done throughout the ages. Normalised and justified bestial actions.
You are repulsive.
-
The minute you query if rape is proportionate , the rest of it could be Nobel prize winning but I'm not reading it , you truly will defend the indefensible won't you.
wilts link shows how confusing and difficult it is to " choose a side with the aims of both extremes seemingly unable to reach any sort of agreement, yet as long as it's the " oppressed " that's ok is it ?
I'm defining "proportionate" as being in the ball park of doing something that has been done to yourself. And, as I said, even then it isn't justified, and I absolutely didn't say it was proportionate either - go back and read this time. I kinda left it hanging as to whether it was proportionate, under my defintion there, I don't know.
If for instance I was put in a room with the guy who abused me as a kid, I wouldn't like to think what I might do to him. I might go way past proportionate, but despite the whole situation, I still wouldn't feel it was justified. Understand?
-
BRR.
Shut up and take a look at yourself.
You've said hostage taking is a proportionate action. You've bent over backwards to justify gang rape and mutilation. You are bending over backwards to justify a clearly planned civilian massacre.
You are doing exactly what political extremists have done throughout the ages. Normalised and justified bestial actions.
You are repulsive.
What trash you speak. Please go back to your cowardly blocking of me.
-
You don't treat gang rape and taking babies hostage by "contextualising" it.
It is wrong. It is morally abhorrent. No " Well, yeah, but ..."
I cannot believe this needs pointing out.
Actually, I can, given what you've "contextualised" in Ukraine.
-
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Your words verbatim. You starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle room . For that, the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey they've had it rough too
Away and shite man, you might write better than me but I'm glad I don't see what you do
The minute you query if rape is proportionate , the rest of it could be Nobel prize winning but I'm not reading it , you truly will defend the indefensible won't you.
wilts link shows how confusing and difficult it is to " choose a side with the aims of both extremes seemingly unable to reach any sort of agreement, yet as long as it's the " oppressed " that's ok is it ?
I'm defining "proportionate" as being in the ball park of doing something that has been done to yourself. And, as I said, even then it isn't justified, and I absolutely didn't say it was proportionate either - go back and read this time. I kinda left it hanging as to whether it was proportionate, under my defintion there, I don't know.
If for instance I was put in a room with the guy who abused me as a kid, I wouldn't like to think what I might do to him. I might go way past proportionate, but despite the whole situation, I still wouldn't feel it was justified. Understand?
-
You don't treat gang rape and taking babies hostage by "contextualising" it.
It is wrong. It is morally abhorrent. No " Well, yeah, but ..."
I cannot believe this needs pointing out.
Actually, I can, given what you've "contextualised" in Ukraine.
BST, a man without context.
-
The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
Young people consuming alcohol, generally being immoral.
And islamic extremists have targeted music venues before. Ariana Grande in Manchester, The Bataclan in Paris.
-
Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
I can't believe I've just read that, so I read it again.
Probably, no certainly the most sickening post I've ever read on here.
Hope you're proud of yersen.
When all this kicked off I was expecting it to be a strike by Hammas onto legitimate targets.
What they have actually done beggars belief and has completely turned the narrative away from the legitimate grievances they had.
-
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Your words verbatim. You starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle room . For that, the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey they've had it rough too
Away and shite man, you might write better than me but I'm glad I don't see what you do
I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?
"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.
Allowing a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?
Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?
-
I can't believe I've just read that, so I read it again.
Probably, no certainly the most sickening post I've ever read on here.
Hope you're proud of yersen.
When all this kicked off I was expecting it to be a strike by Hammas onto legitimate targets.
What they have actually done beggars belief and has completely turned the narrative away from the legitimate grievances they had.
Be specific. As you have left it, you haven't said anything.
-
OK, all the things that you said were proportionate or may be proportionate.
When they are all horrifying acts of barbarism.
-
The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
-
OK, all the things that you said were proportionate or may be proportionate.
When they are all horrifying acts of barbarism.
I mean proportionate as "in proportion to what Israel does".
-
BRR. You'll find few people on here more critical of Israel's apartheid than me but you can't be serious with some of this.
Hamas committed horrific war crimes. It's ok to say that and condemn it while also acknowledging Israel committed war crimes before and after this. There is a lot about this situation that is complex - this bit really shouldn't be.
-
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Your words verbatim. You starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle room . For that, the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey they've had it rough too
Away and shite man, you might write better than me but I'm glad I don't see what you do
I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?
"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.
Allowing a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?
Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?
When things are in proportion, they are proportionate — their relative magnitudes are in balance and make sense the way they are. When the punishment fits the crime, it's proportionate.
So basically the festival goers were asking for it , proportionally. That's my definition of what you were saying.
Btw, I'll admit my post wasn't my best structured ever, but I actually meant it as a compliment. You are obviously an educated man who I feel always writes well with strong held beliefs. Surely though you can see that if we all find what you put abhorrent, then the fault might not be ours
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The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.
-
I'm being very, very careful what sites I look at at the moment. Some people on line who's word I trust say they have seen images and videos that they will never be able to scrub out of their minds.
Be careful. You have no idea what some of these images might do to your mental health.
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When things are in proportion, they are proportionate — their relative magnitudes are in balance and make sense the way they are. When the punishment fits the crime, it's proportionate.
So basically the festival goers were asking for it , proportionally. That's my definition of what you were saying.
Btw, I'll admit my post wasn't my best structured ever, but I actually meant it as a compliment. You are obviously an educated man who I feel always writes well with strong held beliefs. Surely though you can see that if we all find what you put abhorrent, then the fault might not be ours
Thanks for the reply :)
So re the festival, I said all that was wrong. I don't know how the details, and I don't know the details of the Israeli raping of Palestinians - so on that score, I don't know if that was proportionate.
And, BRR. You'll find few people on here more critical of Israel's apartheid than me but you can't be serious with some of this.
Hamas committed horrific war crimes. It's ok to say that and condemn it while also acknowledging Israel committed war crimes before and after this. There is a lot about this situation that is complex - this bit really shouldn't be.
Definitely, 100%, I do think it was wrong, I condem it.
The murdering of the festival goers, wrong as I said, is well within the realm of proportional to what Israel has done.
-
The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.
Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.
-
The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.
Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.
And how do you know that?
There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?
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Bristol, I hope you find a path in life that helps you to discover some form of moral compass.
You can complicate things all you like. But sometimes evil is there in plain sight.
In a roundabout way I think you answered yes to all my previous points. Here’s one that maybe can be a yes or no:
Do you believe that all of the land that is currently Israel should become the nation of Palestine? If so, what would you do with the Jewish population?
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Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Your words verbatim. You starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle room . For that, the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey they've had it rough too
Away and shite man, you might write better than me but I'm glad I don't see what you do
I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?
"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.
Allowing a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?
Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?
Is that all of Israel? Or just the Israeli Orthodox Christians? Or the Israeli Bahaist's? Or the Ethopian Jews? Or the Coptic Christains? Or the Israeli Druze? Or the Hasidic Jews? Or another grouping I haven't listed - there are many more?
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Speechless at anyone attempting to justify the acts of Hamas. Absolutely right to question some of Israel's actions, but that's zero justification for killing babies, children, oaps etc in their homes (and much worse than that happened too).
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The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.
Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.
And how do you know that?
There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?
Yes. It appears they had been practicing storming a town (kibbutz) and did to quite a number.
The festival being on was pure chance. It's more relevant that it was on the Shemini Atzeret holiday when travel was forbidden and security relaxed. It just happened to be an easy target in easy reach.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
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The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.
I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.
And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.
It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.
The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.
I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.
Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.
And how do you know that?
There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?
Yes. It appears they had been practicing storming a town (kibbutz) and did to quite a number.
The festival being on was pure chance. It's more relevant that it was on the Shemini Atzeret holiday when travel was forbidden and security relaxed. It just happened to be an easy target in easy reach.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
I can accept it wasn't the prime target, not the original objective. But I bet it affected the timing.
The Israelis are questioning how it was ever allowed.
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We could well be on the brink of WW3, and Turkey a NATO member telling America to back off will not go down well with other NATO members
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We could well be on the brink of WW3, and Turkey a NATO member telling America to back off will not go down well with other NATO members
Looking at the bigger picture,I think we're seeing a reaction to a sluggish economy. Things haven't been firing properly since 2007.
People become frustrated, more insular, look after number one. More right wing. And we can see right wing popullists gaining ground all over the place.
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
Israel won't be satisfied until it has inflicted far more damage on Gaza in revenge. That's certain. Not least because they have their own bombastic rightwing leader.
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Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.
And the bigger problem is that it doesn't solve anything, look how long it has been going on.
Netanyahu sees that the only way he can stay out of jail is to retain office and has surrounded himself with a bunch of nutters.
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Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.
They will not stop until they have rescued their people !
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Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.
They will not stop until they have rescued their people !
Or they are dead, again that doesn't change what I wrote.
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Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.
They will not stop until they have rescued their people !
Nobody is getting rescued but there is going to be a lot of blood letting in revenge.
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Some protesters outside Sheffield city hall, one of them has climbed up the flag pole threw down the Israeli flag and put up a Palestinian flag!
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/israel-flag-sheffield-town-hall-palestine-hamas-b1112715.html
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
Are you alluding to me here?
There’s 2 sides to it, I’m not pro one way or the other. I’m anti the extremists on either side, yes.
I’m not going to type out a disclaimer with every post with full historical context.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
You’re right though. By the logic of folk like Bristol, Israel’s out of proportion retaliation would be justified as they are acting in response to an attack.
The far-right nationalists and the Islamic fascists are keeping this going. Until ultimately one side crushes the other.
The last few days have been a window in to the genocide at a larger scale that Hamas would carry out if they could.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
Are you alluding to me here?
There’s 2 sides to it, I’m not pro one way or the other. I’m anti the extremists on either side, yes.
I’m not going to type out a disclaimer with every post with full historical context.
No. It was a general comment based on reading quite a number of posts in this thread.
If I am ever alluding to a particular poster or post then I will either quote post that or mention them.
Hope that helps.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
Are you alluding to me here?
There’s 2 sides to it, I’m not pro one way or the other. I’m anti the extremists on either side, yes.
I’m not going to type out a disclaimer with every post with full historical context.
No. It was a general comment based on reading quite a number of posts in this thread.
If I am ever alluding to a particular poster or post then I will either quote post that or mention them.
Hope that helps.
Apologies
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Wiki has a disproportionately high number of pro israel and zionist editors, including up the hierarchies, just saying.
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That would not surprise me, I hope this is not turning into a point scoring thread.
Appears to be for some people.
They want to jusify 'their' sides atrocities by claiming the 'others' are worse.
Some people dont want peace - they just want more war. As long as its' not them fighting but other people doing it for them.
You’re right though. By the logic of folk like Bristol, Israel’s out of proportion retaliation would be justified as they are acting in response to an attack.
The far-right nationalists and the Islamic fascists are keeping this going. Until ultimately one side crushes the other.
The last few days have been a window in to the genocide at a larger scale that Hamas would carry out if they could.
As opposed to continuing with the genocide from Israel?
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I see King Charles has commented about hamas murdering civilians in Israel, no mention of the innocent people killed in Gaza.
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Will be very interesting to hear what certain people who have commented on this topic will have to say after the IDF have completed their "operations" in Gaza.
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BBC running a death count for both sides.
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I see King Charles has commented about hamas murdering civilians in Israel, no mention of the innocent people killed in Gaza.
What caused that Andy
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I see King Charles has commented about hamas murdering civilians in Israel, no mention of the innocent people killed in Gaza.
There is a fundamentall difference, recognised in international law between killing civilians deliberately and as a primary aim, and killing civilians as a consequence of attacks on genuine military targets.
The first is a war crime. The second, however brutal and harrowing, is not.
None of that is to give a free pass to Israel, but there IS a difference.
I have to say though, the cutting off of electricity, food and medical supplies will, if not quickly reversed, become a war crime.
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To support or be pro Palestine is to support democracy or the search for it, and freedom
To support Hammas is to support terrorism, cold blooded murder of innocents.
There's a HUGE difference yet many in the media spotlight,
NHS, labour, are showing their true colours now. If you support Hammas just come clean and say the reality is you hate Jews
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To support or be pro Palestine is to support democracy or the search for it, and freedom
To support Hammas is to support terrorism, cold blooded murder of innocents.
There's a HUGE difference yet many in the media spotlight,
NHS, labour, are showing their true colours now. If you support Hammas just come clean and say the reality is you hate Jews
The current Labour leadership have said they stand with Israel.
But if we throw back a few years…
https://x.com/timescorbyn/status/1710944130312929318?s=46
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I guess if one wants peaceful solutions and long term peace, concessions have to be made and excluding any from that process would tend to leave some unrepresented. I'm not making excuses for anyone here but furthering my thoughts on that process (peace) and the GFA is one that readily comes to mind.
Corbyn has been labelled in the past as a friend of terrorists for many to gain a political advantage and yet later when members of the opposite political party did similar there was silence. The GFA shows all this in a different light.
edit
for accuracy corbyn has been labelled a terrorist himself.
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This is as humane and intelligent a piece as you are ever going to read on this issue.
Take 10 minutes to absorb it.
https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520
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Reading that piece does lay down the impossibility of any solution in the even not so near future.
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Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis! They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.
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Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis! They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.
It is not a "one side good: one side bad" issue. Whilever it is approached in that way, there is zero hope for peace.
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Your all arguing over trying to solve two thousand years of hate that the two sides have given up on.
There is going to be a big rumble in the jungle, Hamas probably wanted it this way hoping the cavalry would come out of the Yemen, Egypt, Iran, Syria, and any other Arab state who would join in against the infidel.
On the other side Israel seem confident they can handle it again knowing the Yanks will back them to the hilt, and if push came to shove they would use their big ones.
It is a mess, both sides too entrenched to avoid at some time or other exactly what is happening and if things escalate it will take some strong leadership from somewhere to scale things down.
I think Israel will stick with the embargo around Palestine for probably another week or even more, counting on the surrounded being tired, hungry, and thirsty, under bombardment all the time, and will just ignore world opinion, it makes any attack easier and they will be hoping not having to go in but it to be as easy as possible if they have to.
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A bit of confusion in some posts about what is considered a war crime, so here is the relevant section:
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8OlacLXEAAPdDK.jpg
So the Israeli response IS a war crime, as was the Hamas murders at the weekend.
End of, despite the bollox of various politicians.
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Thee Israelis will probably launch their offence tomorrow during Friday prayers, I doubt they will wait much longer due to the mounting condemnation of their continued bombing of Gaza. They are now killing a large number of innocents.
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The IDF are unlikely to go in until the hostages are released/or they know the hostages are dead.
Netanyahu is in enough trouble for letting the Hamas attack happen and them kill 1000+ Israeli's without him directly ordering the killing of 150 more.
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Human Rights Watch have confirmed that Israel is using white phosphorus in Gaza. Another war crime.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
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We stand with Israel.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8Oj230X0AEZnTo?format=jpg&name=small)
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Just what we're hamas thinking ?
We're they trying to provoke a wider war ?
Surely they knew it was suicide?
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Just what we're hamas thinking ?
We're they trying to provoke a wider war ?
Surely they knew it was suicide?
You could say that about either side of the wider problem at almost any time since 1948
List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
List of United Nations resolutions concerning Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Palestine
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Just what we're hamas thinking ?
We're they trying to provoke a wider war ?
Surely they knew it was suicide?
Why?....Sabotage? Weren't Israel and UAE (I think?) getting friendly and thus the start of potentially more harmony in the region and amongst the religions
Surely they knew it was suicide?....when you use your own women and kids as shields I don't think you care too much
"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate their enemies"
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An Oz ABC team were in the West Bank recently, skip through the opener as most will have seen it, you probably need a VPN or see it on youtube.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-13/before-the-war:/102973604
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o
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A bit of confusion in some posts about what is considered a war crime, so here is the relevant section:
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8OlacLXEAAPdDK.jpg
So the Israeli response IS a war crime, as was the Hamas murders at the weekend.
End of, despite the bollox of various politicians.
Further to what is and isn’t a war crime have a read of the thread attached
https://twitter.com/MarkGoldfeder/status/1712466270397030722
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Gloster,
What has the twitter thread got to do with the definition I posted?
Sorry, but I don't understand the relevance to the definition given.
What is the key point?
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1.1 million Palestinians have been ordered by Israel to leave Northern Gaza, an area of nearly 500 square kilometres.
They have literally nowhere to go.
Israel is going to carpet bomb that land, before bulldozers & tanks are sent it to clear the whole area.
Any refugees that manage to avoid the attack will have nothing left...any who cross the borders will not be allowed back.
This is what the political consensus is giving a green light to....Biden, the EU, Sunak, Starmer and the rest of the RedBlue Uniparty...all complicit.
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1.1 million Palestinians have been ordered by Israel to leave Northern Gaza, an area of nearly 500 square kilometres.
They have literally nowhere to go.
Israel is going to carpet bomb that land, before bulldozers & tanks are sent it to clear the whole area.
Any refugees that manage to avoid the attack will have nothing left...any who cross the borders will not be allowed back.
This is what the political consensus is giving a green light to....Biden, the EU, Sunak, Starmer and the rest of the RedBlue Uniparty...all complicit.
and the next generation of Palestinians grow up hating the Israelis - and the next generation of Israelis grow up hating the Palestinians. Its a horrible situation that sadly seems like it will never end
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Gloster,
What has the twitter thread got to do with the definition I posted?
Sorry, but I don't understand the relevance to the definition given.
What is the key point?
There is more to what is and isn’t a war crime than the snippet that you posted. There is: distinction, military necessity, and proportionality. Collective punishment is a war crime but you have to decide whether that punishment is covered by military necessity and proportionality. And if it is it isn’t a war crime
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Yes, gloster...but none of those apply here do they?
Many of those affected by the response from Israel are nothing to do with the atrocity by Hamas.
They are just ordinary Palestinian families caught in the crossfire, not agents of Hamas.
There is clearly no military necessity to bomb and clear all Palestinians in Gaza.
It is a massively disproportionate response that will cause untold suffering.
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Yes, gloster...but none of those apply here do they?
Many of those affected by the response from Israel are nothing to do with the atrocity by Hamas.
They are just ordinary Palestinian families caught in the crossfire, not agents of Hamas.
There is clearly no military necessity to bomb and clear all Palestinians in Gaza.
It is a massively disproportionate response that will cause untold suffering.
Unfortunately civilians getting caught in the cross fire is not necessarily a war crime. If Hamas doesn’t let civilians leave the area then it’s their war crime not Israel’s. There may be a military necessity to place where the bomb fell, you and I don’t know that. All deaths are sad, military and civilian but not all deaths are war crimes
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I see King Charles has commented about hamas murdering civilians in Israel, no mention of the innocent people killed in Gaza.
There is a fundamentall difference, recognised in international law between killing civilians deliberately and as a primary aim, and killing civilians as a consequence of attacks on genuine military targets.
The first is a war crime. The second, however brutal and harrowing, is not.
None of that is to give a free pass to Israel, but there IS a difference.
I have to say though, the cutting off of electricity, food and medical supplies will, if not quickly reversed, become a war crime.
Israeli soldiers have killed civilian plenty of times intentionally. The bombing of Gaza is not targeting, it is indiscriminate. It is a war crime with each explosion.
But then so much about Israel is illegal, contravenes international treaties, and conventions.
All the support given is ignoring this. Why?
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'Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy'.
Netanyahu at a meeting of the Likud party Knesset members in March 2019.
Read that again and let the implications sink in.
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619
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People are trying to leave gloster, but the logistics of evacuating these numbers in 24 hours, including disabled and hospitalised are immense.
Israel knows this, but chooses to ignore the implications, and continues to bomb.
In the light of this, there is no doubt a war crime is being committed with more to come.
Forcible transfer is recognised as a war crime itself, and there is no other way to describe the exodus.
A good take here from former Guardian journo David Hearst on DDN;
https://youtu.be/M15CV8jOIYQ
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I’m not sure where these people are expected to go.
Egypt has shut the Gaza border. I’m guessing this is because they don’t want any Hamas infiltration after the Sinai Insurgency.
*But also if the Gazans leave would Israel let them back?
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Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis! They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.
It is not a "one side good: one side bad" issue. Whilever it is approached in that way, there is zero hope for peace.
Exactly this. If you think one side is in the right and one in the wrong you are miles away from the truth.
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Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis! They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.
It is not a "one side good: one side bad" issue. Whilever it is approached in that way, there is zero hope for peace.
Exactly this. If you think one side is in the right and one in the wrong you are miles away from the truth.
While it is true that the blame game will have to be put aside for a solution to be found, each side do tend to outdo each other on occasion. Land taken during conflict does not legitimise it. Gaza itself is an abomination and UN resolutions are broken every day with West Bank settlements.
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.
Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.
The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.
Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.
The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.
OK
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.
Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.
The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.
OK
Didn't realise how bad the West Bank was. The West are near enough encouraging genocide.
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A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.
That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.
Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.
The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.
OK
There's a missing image from 1973-2008.
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
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The authorities didn’t complain in the least when earlier this year they laid miles of brand new water pipes to alleviate the water shortage and Hamas dug up the lot to make their Rockets, and not a word said when they built hundreds of launching rails on top of several hundred high rise buildings, not a word said
https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1712633164869370256?s=61
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Independent sources
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/israeloccupied-palestinian-territory-un-experts-deplore-attacks-civilians
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/commission-inquiry-collecting-evidence-war-crimes-committed-all-sides-israel#:~:text=GENEVA%20(10%20October%202023)%20%E2%80%93,UN%20Independent%20International%20Commission%20of
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See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:
https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”
Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.
When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.
https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?
Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?
Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?
Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:
https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46
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See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:
https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”
Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.
When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.
https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?
Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?
Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?
Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:
https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46
Let's just stick with the Starmer bit. He is a right wing Zionist, there's nothing that changes that. Whether he speaks against Hamas or just sits counting the money from his Zionist sponsors, or bans the accurate use of the word apartheid in relation to Israel at his conference. Or promotes and dictates the concept that antizionism, or even a negative comment on the state of Israel, equates with antisemitism.
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See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:
https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”
Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.
When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.
https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?
Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?
Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?
Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:
https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46
He criticised attacks from both sides. He's against murder of innocent civilians and war crimes, how is that stance the morally wrong one?
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DO
It's the precise wording.
When Israel commits an atrocity, he rightly condemns it explicitly as an atrocity by Israel.
When Hamas commits an atrocity, he condemns violence on all sides.
It's an age-old tactic among fellow travellers. You know you can't get away without saying something when your side sins, but you water it down by referring to the sin in the abstract, not drawing attention to the explicit example.
It's easy to see, if you're prepared to look.
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DO
It's the precise wording.
When Israel commits an atrocity, he rightly condemns it explicitly as an atrocity by Israel.
When Hamas commits an atrocity, he condemns violence on all sides.
It's an age-old tactic among fellow travellers. You know you can't get away without saying something when your side sins, but you water it down by referring to the sin in the abstract, not drawing attention to the explicit example.
It's easy to see, if you're prepared to look.
Which, is better form than Starmer, who just backs Israel, who in turn back him.
-
See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:
https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”
Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.
When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.
https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?
Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?
Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?
Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:
https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46
Let's just stick with the Starmer bit. He is a right wing Zionist, there's nothing that changes that. Whether he speaks against Hamas or just sits counting the money from his Zionist sponsors, or bans the accurate use of the word apartheid in relation to Israel at his conference. Or promotes and dictates the concept that antizionism, or even a negative comment on the state of Israel, equates with antisemitism.
You dodged a lot of questions there BRR.
What does the term Zionist mean to you then? Simply believing that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself by the borders how they were in 1948?
Classic trope from you there though - Jews have money, power and secret influence in the running of the world.
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The Labouring Party have decided to block people offering support to Palestinians under siege;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF8aN5ElXYAAZrLq.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
P.2 of the same letter;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF8aN7LHXAAAWbGU.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
So democratic support for those under attack is now seen as being disloyal to Emperor Keith!
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Here's something that mirrors my thoughts on this. An excellent vid by David Hearst of Middle East Eye.
The western leaders are giving the green light to a violent oppressive Israel, a state worst than South Africa. Israel's actions will be the death sentance for tens of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis. It will benefit the wealthy and elite of Israel.
This is not a case of both sides are equally bad. Israel is undoubtedly the Apartheid South Africa, the Nazi Germany.
https://youtu.be/GNqilIwiqAM
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NC, spell out where I used the trope.
I'll reply to the rest later. I note you avoided replying.
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The Labouring Party have decided to block people offering support to Palestinians under siege;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF8aN5ElXYAAZrLq.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
P.2 of the same letter;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF8aN7LHXAAAWbGU.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
So democratic support for those under attack is now seen as being disloyal to Emperor Keith!
Have you actually read the letter?
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NC, spell out where I used the trope.
I'll reply to the rest later. I note you avoided replying.
Because you avoided everything I asked. I’d like to stay on the topic of the points I’ve raised.
You’re the one offering hard set opinions, I’m the one questioning them. Because like you say it’s a “complex” and “multi-layered” situation.
Perhaps because the last question you answered straight of mine *everybody* took issue with your reply?
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What does the term Zionist mean to you then?
Political control over the biblical land of Israel (ALL of the biblical land of Israel) for by a Jewish state and containing only people of the Jewish faith.
As pronounced by terrorist groups, such as the Stern Gang, in the mid 20th century who murdered British soldiers, hung their bodies on display and booby-trapped them.
What does it mean to you?
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
There's no winners or losers in this game nc.
If people look at it like that it will just go on. And on. It's called 'seeking revenge'.
It wont stop until both sides are prepared to loose. A very wise bloke a lot closer to the action than we are told me that in 2000. Just before Sharon visited the Temple Mount to kick-off the second Intifada in an effort to 'win'.
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
There's no winners or losers in this game nc.
If people look at it like that it will just go on. And on. It's called 'seeking revenge'.
It wont stop until both sides are prepared to loose. A very wise bloke a lot closer to the action than we are told me that in 2000. Just before Sharon visited the Temple Mount to kick-off the second Intifada in an effort to 'win'.
...after Arafat's moves to try to get the Palestinians to accept a two state solution had been blocked by Palestinian hard-liners.
Wilts, I couldn't agree more with the first 6 sentences. The 7th one is part of the problem - blame on one side.
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Thanks Wilts, I know there’s no winners and losers. If there were someone vociferously pro-Israel expansion and unprovoked aggression on the thread I would be questioning them too.
Ok might be controversial but I don’t think that sounds like Kier Starmer.
“According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab-Israeli population in 2023 was 2.1 million, representing 21 percent of the country's population. The majority of these citizens identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and as Israeli by citizenship.”
It’s clear there’s nut jobs and terrorists on the Israeli far-right who would like otherwise.
It’s clear that the term means different things to different people.
That’s why I asked. I don’t really know enough to truly know what it means.
From there, because Palestine has never been a country, I want to work out what people like BRR thinks should be the alternative. And then he can establish what he believes the borders should be and what to do with the people caught up in the changes and violence that would ensue.
I have a feeling that the term “Zionist” has a much lower threshold for him than it does you.
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NC, spell out where I used the trope.
I'll reply to the rest later. I note you avoided replying.
Because you avoided everything I asked. I’d like to stay on the topic of the points I’ve raised.
You’re the one offering hard set opinions, I’m the one questioning them. Because like you say it’s a “complex” and “multi-layered” situation.
Perhaps because the last question you answered straight of mine *everybody* took issue with your reply?
I chose to answer one question/point of several you asked. It is on topic re your post. I didn't avoid anything, I said I'd deal with the rest later. I think I clearly replied to the Starmer point. I don't see any tropes there. If you pointed out that in the reply above in the last paragraph you wrote, which I struggle to make sense of, I can't see it. Eg "everybody took offence" ? Huh?
"Zionism" - I think what Wilts quoted fairly well covers it.
I'd be interested to hear what you think of the vid I linked above.
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NC, you mentioned how Corbyn waited for the murderous response from Israel before commenting. This didn't begin with the recent Hamas attack, Israel has been murdering Palestinians all year. See that vid I linked to - how many children did Israel murder just this year up to the recent attack?
Corbyn has always made his position clear. Has Starmer condemned Israel for its 2023 murders or even mentioned them? Has Biden, have the various Zionist Jewish organisations in the UK, eg the Board of Deputies, Jewish Labour Movement? Says a lot don't you think.
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BST,
Yes, I read it with incredulity.
It is a disgrace.
Protesting about war crimes, either actual or potential, is a fundamental right.
It is also the duty of Labour MP's, members and all ethical people.
Restricting the right to protest has no place in Labour politics.
It is not acceptable for Labour head office to prohibit local constituency parties from passing support to humanitarian responses.
It is unacceptable to limit criticism of breaches of international law and human rights.
The Starmeroids will no doubt use Palestinian support as a tool to engineer further expulsions.
This is the reason for the letter from Evans, and the explanation for the broadbrush approach...it is a catch-all that allows the detail to be retrofitted.
If you cannot see that opposition to an apartheid fascist government (Netenyahu) is needed, and that revulsion at abhorrent ethnic cleansing, occupation and annexation of territory should be stated, there is nothing anyone can do to help you.
Here is an explainer;
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
The position Starmer took supporting the "right to defence" of Israel goes far beyond protection into outright attack.
Actions to cut off electricity and water are indiscriminate assaults on a civilian population.
His position stands against the United Nations, the World Health Organisation, Amnesty and other human rights organisations.
You shall be known by the company you keep.
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I thought you would have a better understanding Albie especially looking back at what was done to corbyn
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Albie.
If you have read the letter, you'll know that no "people" are being "blocked" from attending demonstrations.
The point (and this shouldn't need to be pointed out, but clearly it does) that there is nothing whatsoever to be gained from aligning the Labour party with scenes like this.
https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1713197915919782118
Or with politicians like this, who say they are against all violence while only actively blaming one side. Note the difference between the words and the image.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
This is a horrific situation. Using it to further your own sectional political arguments as you are doing here with your childish insults helps no-one.
You know damn well that as soon as Labour figures put themselves, even innocently, in positions where they appear to be aligning with people who glory in what Hamas did last week, they do nothing to support to plight of Palestinians.
The official Labour line is here by the way.
https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1713115329981727217
Why are you doing this?
It is a million miles away from the picture you paint.
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BST,
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the entire political establishment is culpable for inviting Netanyahu to take a free hit.
An opportunity he has taken, knowing that the worst will be a slap on the wrist after the event.
So, once again, Biden, Sunak, Starmer, Von der Layen and all..... wrong place, wrong time.
Starmer had the responsibility to commit Labour to a principled position, protecting the rights of civilians under an occupation.
He chose to align with the Israeli government under the false flag of defence. This is unsurprising in that he has described himself as a zionist previously.
Here is what Keith was saying 4 days ago:
https://youtu.be/ScLMP32NOnc
Keith has been clamping down on alternative views within Labour for some time, and holding sanctions over the heads of those with a different point of view;
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/labour-urges-mps-not-attend-palestine-related-protests
It is clear that Labour MP's will read the Evans letter as a coded warning.
Starmer does this to put a further wedge between any remaining left of centre Labour members, and his preferred position on the extreme right.
I expect more resignations of exasperated members, and further expulsions to follow.
The Nandy letter is an attempt to row back on the disastrous media interviews given by Keith and Thornberry earlier in the week.
Both backed the "right to defence" line without implied restraint on Netanyahu, and have been widely criticised for the bias shown.
A video summary:
https://youtu.be/Ribc09kAOaQ
That said, it is a significant improvement on the position 2 days earlier.
It is also absent of specific criticism of the actions taken by Israel, either in reply to the Hamas atrocity, or the well documented history of colonial oppression of Palestinians since 1948.
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, but everyone knows it is a retrofit to a shitshow.
Muslim voters now have no reason to support Labour, and are politically homeless.
Why am I doing this you ask....because it is important that the truth be told.
Your bias is blocking your view of the big picture.
Step outside your factional interest for a minute, and see how it looks from outside that narrow perspective.
Once you start making excuses for the party you support, then you are a part of the problem, not the solution.
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Albie, under the circumstances of The Hamas raid do you really think international condemnation would have or will stop this retaliation by Israel? I'm afraid this is old style an eye for an eye retaliation, no amount of condemnation would have prevented nor will prevent Israel for taking this and much further action in Gaza
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No Raven, but Biden could.
Biden chose the wrong opening position, and now has to row back to put Netanyahu back in his box.
Much better to have locked down on the excessive Israeli reaction in the first place, IMO.
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
There's no winners or losers in this game nc.
If people look at it like that it will just go on. And on. It's called 'seeking revenge'.
It wont stop until both sides are prepared to loose. A very wise bloke a lot closer to the action than we are told me that in 2000. Just before Sharon visited the Temple Mount to kick-off the second Intifada in an effort to 'win'.
...after Arafat's moves to try to get the Palestinians to accept a two state solution had been blocked by Palestinian hard-liners.
Wilts, I couldn't agree more with the first 6 sentences. The 7th one is part of the problem - blame on one side.
The first six sentences were opinion. The seventh was a fact.
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Thanks Wilts, I know there’s no winners and losers. If there were someone vociferously pro-Israel expansion and unprovoked aggression on the thread I would be questioning them too.
Ok might be controversial but I don’t think that sounds like Kier Starmer.
“According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab-Israeli population in 2023 was 2.1 million, representing 21 percent of the country's population. The majority of these citizens identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and as Israeli by citizenship.”
It’s clear there’s nut jobs and terrorists on the Israeli far-right who would like otherwise.
It’s clear that the term means different things to different people.
That’s why I asked. I don’t really know enough to truly know what it means.
From there, because Palestine has never been a country, I want to work out what people like BRR thinks should be the alternative. And then he can establish what he believes the borders should be and what to do with the people caught up in the changes and violence that would ensue.
I have a feeling that the term “Zionist” has a much lower threshold for him than it does you.
No problem NC.
I can only give my opinion based on my knowledge and background. I do have a particular interest in this conflict having lived and worked there for a time - but my opinion is no more or less value than anyone else.
I always enjoy your posts btw. I dont always agree with them but always find it enjoyable to debate with you.
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Not even Biden could have prevented this action.
He may in coming days or weeks be able to bring some pressure to bear on Israel but he nor any other world leader could have prevented this action
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
There's no winners or losers in this game nc.
If people look at it like that it will just go on. And on. It's called 'seeking revenge'.
It wont stop until both sides are prepared to loose. A very wise bloke a lot closer to the action than we are told me that in 2000. Just before Sharon visited the Temple Mount to kick-off the second Intifada in an effort to 'win'.
...after Arafat's moves to try to get the Palestinians to accept a two state solution had been blocked by Palestinian hard-liners.
Wilts, I couldn't agree more with the first 6 sentences. The 7th one is part of the problem - blame on one side.
The first six sentences were opinion. The seventh was a fact.
It's a very selective "fact".
Sharon's visit was PART of the context of the Second Intifada. Saying that's what kicked it off without exploring the role that Palestinians played in the failure of the Camp David summit is an example of the problem.
As the rest of your post says, it's not all blame on one side and victimhood on the other.
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BBC offer a pathetic apology for their irresponsible and defamatory reporting of the pro Palestinian protests;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1713963938381967360/pu/vid/avc1/1280x714/pWRY4-zurWFgXK--.mp4?tag=12
Sneaked out on the "News Channel" after the damage was done.
The original report was repeated several times on the BBC, without an editor batting an eyelid.
They deserve to be prosecuted.
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See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:
https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46
“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”
Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.
When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.
https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46
Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?
Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?
Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?
Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:
https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46
The media like to frame particular protests in certain ways Albie.
But perhaps that crowd would help themselves if they asked the questions I have raised here.
Or maybe if they weren’t ignorant in ways such as this
https://x.com/ayocaesar/status/1713626947421339903?s=46
I’ll keep an eye on her feed to see if she has anything to say about the Brussels attack.
I will listen to your video today BRR. Still interested in your thoughts to the questions I raised in the post I’m quoting here.
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ncrover,
The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.
Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.
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Israel and hamas, just take your grievances out into the desert and shoot the f**k out of each other instead of killing innocent men, women and children, then almost certainly the 500 people that have just been killed in a hospital would still be alive
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Blown up a hospital run by the Baptist Church, following an attack on a school.
Netanyahu is a psychopath, and Biden now needs to take him out.
The Israeli government are completely insane, and should be treated as such.
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Israel and hamas, just take your grievances out into the desert and shoot the f**k out of each other instead of killing innocent men, women and children, then almost certainly the 500 people that have just been killed in a hospital would still be alive
Quite right, Israel have pushed it too far again today, no denying that. The rest of the world has to take a stand otherwise the moral approach in Ukraine stands for nothing.
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Blown up a hospital run by the Baptist Church, following an attack on a school.
Netanyahu is a psychopath, and Biden now needs to take him out.
The Israeli government are completely insane, and should be treated as such.
Reports on SM seems to point the finger at a Hamas rocket that misfired, bit of a big own goal if true
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I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.
If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?
There's no winners or losers in this game nc.
If people look at it like that it will just go on. And on. It's called 'seeking revenge'.
It wont stop until both sides are prepared to loose. A very wise bloke a lot closer to the action than we are told me that in 2000. Just before Sharon visited the Temple Mount to kick-off the second Intifada in an effort to 'win'.
...after Arafat's moves to try to get the Palestinians to accept a two state solution had been blocked by Palestinian hard-liners.
Wilts, I couldn't agree more with the first 6 sentences. The 7th one is part of the problem - blame on one side.
The first six sentences were opinion. The seventh was a fact.
It's a very selective "fact".
Sharon's visit was PART of the context of the Second Intifada. Saying that's what kicked it off without exploring the role that Palestinians played in the failure of the Camp David summit is an example of the problem.
As the rest of your post says, it's not all blame on one side and victimhood on the other.
Not really, Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the action that started the rioting that became the Second Intifada. Prior to that visit there was no rioting after it there was.
There were other factors that angered the Arab population. They may have started the Intifada at some other point had the visit not happened. But it did. The Intifada was a direct consequence of it.
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Blown up a hospital run by the Baptist Church, following an attack on a school.
Netanyahu is a psychopath, and Biden now needs to take him out.
The Israeli government are completely insane, and should be treated as such.
Reports on SM seems to point the finger at a Hamas rocket that misfired, bit of a big own goal if true
Really? I wonder who may be taken in by those type of 'reports'?
You will have seen the images of the damage caused by the Hamas rockets. All of the thousands of them put together wouldn't have caused the same amout of damage coming out from that hospital.
Curious it happened whilst the Israeli Air Force were carrying out a bombing raid at the same time too.
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Wilts.
You're talking as though the Palestinian leadership had no responsibility for the background to the Second Intifada.
That's my point. Placing all the blame in one direction is guaranteed to prolong the problem.
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Blown up a hospital run by the Baptist Church, following an attack on a school.
Netanyahu is a psychopath, and Biden now needs to take him out.
The Israeli government are completely insane, and should be treated as such.
Reports on SM seems to point the finger at a Hamas rocket that misfired, bit of a big own goal if true
Really? I wonder who may be taken in by those type of 'reports'?
You will have seen the images of the damage caused by the Hamas rockets. All of the thousands of them put together wouldn't have caused the same amout of damage coming out from that hospital.
Curious it happened whilst the Israeli Air Force were carrying out a bombing raid at the same time too.
Here’s one of the reports that says that the misfired rocket hit a store of rockets stored at the hospital
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Uh oh, at least 500 killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital... Terrible.
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Uh oh, at least 500 killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital... Terrible.
Is that actually true?
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Uh oh, at least 500 killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital... Terrible.
Is that actually true?
Who knows? It's the top story of the Daily Mail.
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It would be something for them to manage to accidentally kill 500 of their own by misfiring rocket when they struggle to even get close to anything attacking Israel. Hard to know what's true but if Russia said that in Ukraine we'd laugh at them being so ridiculous....
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Uh oh, at least 500 killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital... Terrible.
Is that actually true?
Who knows? It's the top story of the Daily Mail.
Yeah but who believes what the Mail writes.
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Uh oh, at least 500 killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital... Terrible.
Is that actually true?
Who knows? It's the top story of the Daily Mail.
Yeah but who believes what the Mail writes.
Seems to be reported more widely now.
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It is very, very difficult to kill 500 people with a single air-delivered conventional weapon.
Only one, maybe two terrorist bombings on the ground have ever in history killed as many as half that number, and the biggest attacks of that sort are frequently much larger in size than air-delivered munitions and deliberately placed to cause maximum damage.
Three possibilities.
1) There's gross exaggeration going on
2) Israel used multiple large weapons in the attack.
3) There was a munitions store hit by an attack that produced a very large explosion.
It's utterly horrific, whatever the truth of the matter.
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One thing is certain. Biden is going to be in a very different position after this attack. Netanyahu has previous in showing disdain for Democrat Presidents. He ordered a strike against Palestinians as Obama was visiting Israel years ago. But this is a different magnitude. If Israel has targeted a hospital, just as Biden is about to visit, that is going to radically change the terms of Western support for them.
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Unconscionable. Given the full backing of most politicians in the West. I'm almost at a loss for words.
How many people will be radicalised against the west after watching this?
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I find myself wondering if Israel has embarked on the path of genocide....
BobG
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Fairly obvious the area was being used as a munition store and targeted by Isreal.
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This, from 2009, is well worth 5 minutes of watching. If only people listened/acted at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWe8gRolEJk
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Last night I came across a video of them loading and launching their Rockets, simple stuff made from stolen Water piping they load them individually into a single tubes stand alone Launcher which in on a frame resembling portable Baseket ball nets the rockets have an artillery shell type detonator which a crew member has to twist several times to arm it, same a a shell they group several a few yards apart in a diamond formation and then fire them off together, a recipe for disaster also the reloads are all close at hand to facilitate a high firing rate, a true recipe for disaster
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It is very, very difficult to kill 500 people with a single air-delivered conventional weapon.
Only one, maybe two terrorist bombings on the ground have ever in history killed as many as half that number, and the biggest attacks of that sort are frequently much larger in size than air-delivered munitions and deliberately placed to cause maximum damage.
Three possibilities.
1) There's gross exaggeration going on
2) Israel used multiple large weapons in the attack.
3) There was a munitions store hit by an attack that produced a very large explosion.
It's utterly horrific, whatever the truth of the matter.
As I was saying. It just doesn't stack up that 500 people could be killed from a single air drop munition.
And now the preliminary data from the site is emerging, it looks like a fuel explosion (i.e. rocket propellant) rather than a high explosive warhead.
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1714535497958334678
This is horrific. But it requires open and honest approaches to the truth rather than an insistence that it's an Israeli deliberate attack.
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Very detailed press conference from Israel explaining how it wasn't them. Doubt we'll ever know the truth unless we get some satellite footage.
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Killing their own people without a care, then trying to use it as propaganda to blame Isreal. what a peaceful bunch/religion
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It is always the case that when a humanitarian outrage like the hospital bombing takes place, both sides look to blame the other.
Israel has form here, and I would expect Hamas to do the same.....muddy the waters!
The background is what is the nature of terrorism, and understand that states practice it as well as resistance militants.
https://youtu.be/qMpMDzMOjQ0
It is normalised when it is a day to day fact of occupation, part of a long term plan for ethnic cleansing.
Israel wants to squeeze the Gaza enclave down to nothing, and colonise the land with armed settlers.
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It is very, very difficult to kill 500 people with a single air-delivered conventional weapon.
Only one, maybe two terrorist bombings on the ground have ever in history killed as many as half that number, and the biggest attacks of that sort are frequently much larger in size than air-delivered munitions and deliberately placed to cause maximum damage.
Three possibilities.
1) There's gross exaggeration going on
2) Israel used multiple large weapons in the attack.
3) There was a munitions store hit by an attack that produced a very large explosion.
It's utterly horrific, whatever the truth of the matter.
As I was saying. It just doesn't stack up that 500 people could be killed from a single air drop munition.
And now the preliminary data from the site is emerging, it looks like a fuel explosion (i.e. rocket propellant) rather than a high explosive warhead.
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1714535497958334678
This is horrific. But it requires open and honest approaches to the truth rather than an insistence that it's an Israeli deliberate attack.
BBC shows an Al Jazeera Clip of a rocket being ascending fro I assume Gaza and then exploding mid air seconds later a fire ball erupts immediately below it the buildings engulfed I assume where the Hospital.
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It is very, very difficult to kill 500 people with a single air-delivered conventional weapon.
Only one, maybe two terrorist bombings on the ground have ever in history killed as many as half that number, and the biggest attacks of that sort are frequently much larger in size than air-delivered munitions and deliberately placed to cause maximum damage.
Three possibilities.
1) There's gross exaggeration going on
2) Israel used multiple large weapons in the attack.
3) There was a munitions store hit by an attack that produced a very large explosion.
It's utterly horrific, whatever the truth of the matter.
As I was saying. It just doesn't stack up that 500 people could be killed from a single air drop munition.
And now the preliminary data from the site is emerging, it looks like a fuel explosion (i.e. rocket propellant) rather than a high explosive warhead.
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1714535497958334678
This is horrific. But it requires open and honest approaches to the truth rather than an insistence that it's an Israeli deliberate attack.
Are you saying that you expect a terrorist organisation to tell the truth about this.
They are bound to try to blame someone else.
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Very detailed press conference from Israel explaining how it wasn't them. Doubt we'll ever know the truth unless we get some satellite footage.
Have a look at that Twitter link I posted. There's aerial footage showing very little cratering or blast damage to cars around the epicentre.
That strongly suggests it wasn't a large high explosive warhead (and it would have had to be a VERY large one to kill 500 people.
Preliminary evidence strongly suggests a large fuel explosion and fire - fits with it being a malfunctioning long range Hamas missile failing and crashing shortly after launch.
It's an utter tragedy for the victims. And maybe a lesson for those who knee-jerk accused Israeli forces of a deliberate atrocity.
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Very detailed press conference from Israel explaining how it wasn't them. Doubt we'll ever know the truth unless we get some satellite footage.
Have a look at that Twitter link I posted. There's aerial footage showing very little cratering or blast damage to cars around the epicentre.
That strongly suggests it wasn't a large high explosive warhead (and it would have had to be a VERY large one to kill 500 people.
Preliminary evidence strongly suggests a large fuel explosion and fire - fits with it being a malfunctioning long range Hamas missile failing and crashing shortly after launch.
It's an utter tragedy for the victims. And maybe a lesson for those who knee-jerk accused Israeli forces of a deliberate atrocity.
I agree with your analysis but there are several hundred millions in the middle East who won’t this whole situation is going from bad to worse
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Wilts.
You're talking as though the Palestinian leadership had no responsibility for the background to the Second Intifada.
That's my point. Placing all the blame in one direction is guaranteed to prolong the problem.
#bothsides
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It is very, very difficult to kill 500 people with a single air-delivered conventional weapon.
Only one, maybe two terrorist bombings on the ground have ever in history killed as many as half that number, and the biggest attacks of that sort are frequently much larger in size than air-delivered munitions and deliberately placed to cause maximum damage.
Three possibilities.
1) There's gross exaggeration going on
2) Israel used multiple large weapons in the attack.
3) There was a munitions store hit by an attack that produced a very large explosion.
It's utterly horrific, whatever the truth of the matter.
As I was saying. It just doesn't stack up that 500 people could be killed from a single air drop munition.
And now the preliminary data from the site is emerging, it looks like a fuel explosion (i.e. rocket propellant) rather than a high explosive warhead.
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1714535497958334678
This is horrific. But it requires open and honest approaches to the truth rather than an insistence that it's an Israeli deliberate attack.
Are you saying that you expect a terrorist organisation to tell the truth about this.
They are bound to try to blame someone else.
Terrorist - are you talking Hamas, or Israel? Tell me how you distinguish between the two.
-
It is always the case that when a humanitarian outrage like the hospital bombing takes place, both sides look to blame the other.
Israel has form here, and I would expect Hamas to do the same.....muddy the waters!
The background is what is the nature of terrorism, and understand that states practice it as well as resistance militants.
https://youtu.be/qMpMDzMOjQ0
It is normalised when it is a day to day fact of occupation, part of a long term plan for ethnic cleansing.
Israel wants to squeeze the Gaza enclave down to nothing, and colonise the land with armed settlers.
Really not good enough Albie.
The evidence is mounting that the horrific loss of life in the hospital inferno was not caused by an Israeli high explosive attack.
It is very important that, if a tragedy as horrendous as this is used by ANY side for sectional advantage, people of good faith call it out. It's simply not acceptable to shrug your shoulders and mumble about "muddying the waters".
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
-
In a difficult situation with thousands dead, I'm glad we can all come together and identify the real villain: the jam grandad.
-
Didn’t the blast occur in the car park? I’ve seen images today of the hospital still standing. How did Hamas know that 500 people had died so quick?
RIP to the innocent victims but we need our mainstream media to be reporting accurate information.
The fog of war has truly descended.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Did you see this Billy?
Chris Williamson MP - “Israel has forfeited any right to exist”
https://x.com/derbychrisw/status/1714363673303556504?s=46
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Did you see this Billy?
Chris Williamson MP - “Israel has forfeited any right to exist”
https://x.com/derbychrisw/status/1714363673303556504?s=46
Chris Williamson is a Kitson. Precisely the cancer that Labour had to excise.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
-
In a difficult situation with thousands dead, I'm glad we can all come together and identify the real villain: the jam grandad.
He’s highly influential on this topic.
10.2m views on that tweet and former Labour leader so yes he should be scrutinised.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
What about the Williamson one then?
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
People prefer to make the truth malleable to their beliefs rather than their beliefs malleable to the truth.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
People prefer to make the truth malleable to their beliefs rather than their beliefs malleable to the truth.
NC. I've said for years that the biggest threat by far to humanity is the erosion of the idea of Objective Truth.
Bigger than climate change. Bigger than the threat of war or AI.
We all have a duty to understand and acknowledge when the facts aren't what we would prefer them to be.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...
It was used by the MSM at the time he posted it, seems like you have an axe to grind. Read that exact post, theres nothing anti-semitic about it, if you're able to read between lines and find it then that says more about you than anything.
-
It is always the case that when a humanitarian outrage like the hospital bombing takes place, both sides look to blame the other.
Israel has form here, and I would expect Hamas to do the same.....muddy the waters!
The background is what is the nature of terrorism, and understand that states practice it as well as resistance militants.
https://youtu.be/qMpMDzMOjQ0
It is normalised when it is a day to day fact of occupation, part of a long term plan for ethnic cleansing.
Israel wants to squeeze the Gaza enclave down to nothing, and colonise the land with armed settlers.
Really not good enough Albie.
The evidence is mounting that the horrific loss of life in the hospital inferno was not caused by an Israeli high explosive attack.
It is very important that, if a tragedy as horrendous as this is used by ANY side for sectional advantage, people of good faith call it out. It's simply not acceptable to shrug your shoulders and mumble about "muddying the waters".
Missing the point. Israel has stole and murdered far far more than any Palestinian resistance. Weirdly, the Zionists were not wanted by the people whose homes they stole, whose children they murdered. If you take the hospital incident away, there are still so many crimes of Israel just in this period. Many more to come.
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...
Anti Zionists perhaps. By conflating truth BST, you become the problem. Or maybe you can evidence your statement?
-
On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example. Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.
What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn. 24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....
Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Easy to find.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.
Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.
Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...
Anti Zionists perhaps. By conflating truth BST, you become the problem. Or maybe you can evidence your statement?
It's the equivalent of criticising India/Modi's government and being called anti-Hindu. Exquisite mental gymnastics.
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.
There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.
All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?
You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.
-
BST,
The hospital explosion could have been a drone strike, rather than large air ordinance.
Israel are targeting civilians and the services they depend on.
Residential buildings, journalists, medical facilities and convoys of displaced people.
The UN motion on a ceasefire has been vetoed by Biden.
25 hospitals and medical facilities were given notice to vacate by Israel, an instruction that they cannot comply with.
The strike yesterday was a follow up to the warning strike last Saturday, which injured 4.
Israel denied responsibility for the murder of the Palestinian journalist last year, creating doubt by muddying the waters has always been their strategy. A false propaganda storm is to be expected.
In that context, unproven assertions on liability are not the point.
We may or may not have proof longer term, but the process of territorial expansion continues in Gaza and the West Bank.
For all the reasons given, and the known history of ethnic cleansing of Palestine since 1948, Israel is a rogue state routinely
committing humanitarian abuses and war crimes on an industrial scale.
That cannot be denied, can it?
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.
There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.
All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?
You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.
MM
Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.
Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?
-
BST,
The hospital explosion could have been a drone strike, rather than large air ordinance.
Israel are targeting civilians and the services they depend on.
Residential buildings, journalists, medical facilities and convoys of displaced people.
The UN motion on a ceasefire has been vetoed by Biden.
25 hospitals and medical facilities were given notice to vacate by Israel, an instruction that they cannot comply with.
The strike yesterday was a follow up to the warning strike last Saturday, which injured 4.
Israel denied responsibility for the murder of the Palestinian journalist last year, creating doubt by muddying the waters has always been their strategy. A false propaganda storm is to be expected.
In that context, unproven assertions on liability are not the point.
We may or may not have proof longer term, but the process of territorial expansion continues in Gaza and the West Bank.
For all the reasons given, and the known history of ethnic cleansing of Palestine since 1948, Israel is a rogue state routinely
committing humanitarian abuses and war crimes on an industrial scale.
That cannot be denied, can it?
Do you want to run by me how a drone carries enough explosive to cause the size of fireball that was shown in videos of the event, and to cause fires over several thousand square metres?
-
No Billy, you do not have the expertise.
A drone payload can cause an incendiary chain reaction if it attacks a combustible source on the ground, either fuel or munitions.
There is no definitive evidence to hand, and it is nothing to do with the substantive point I made about war crimes.
Yes or no to the question?
-
No Billy, you do not have the expertise.
A drone payload can cause an incendiary chain reaction if it attacks a combustible source on the ground, either fuel or munitions.
But how odd would it be for a large fuel or munitions store to be kept in the open air car park of a hospital? And if it was a large fuel container, for there to be no evidence of it at all after the event? Or if it was munitions, for there to be no evidence of them reacting and causing individual secondary explosions on the video of the event?
My point is that at best, at very best there is doubt over whether this was an Israeli attack. And yet some people are steadfastly refusing to withdraw their immediate response that it unquestionably was.
Do you really not see the issue there?
-
This is like looking for angels dancing on the heads of pins. A popular pastime once.
Just like every other war since wars began, one side blames the other. The questions that really matter are how can it be stopped, and by whom?
And, btw, I despise one side and I loathe the other.
BobG
-
Bob.
I couldn't agree more that the real question is how to stop the bloodshed.
I disagree that issues like this don't matter though.
MM quite correctly pointed out how this sort of issue radicalises the next generation. Which is precisely why the truth of what happened is so important. If major figures insist that it was a war crime by one side, when the evidence is at best uncertain, they are choosing to radicalise people and that plays a part in ensuring the violence continues down the ages.
That horse has bolted now. Opinions are fixed.
I'll guarantee that in 50 years time there will be people using the "fact" that Israel deliberately targeted 500 civilians in a hospital as justification for their hatred of Israel.
-
Look for example at how some of the Arab leaders cancelled meetings with Biden citing the "Israeli attack" on the hospital. That doesn't help find a way out of the current bloodbath.
-
Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.
Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation
An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m
Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!
-
Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.
Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation
An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m
Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!
Lot of unsupported emotive opinion in the links Albie, the fact that we have all been there, the difference being that some retract and or apologise.
There are some that have accused corbyn of being a terrorist (by association) and there are others that have tenuously tried to link Starmer to savile or breaking covid rules and most have not retracted nor apologised so I reckon that those trying to claim to be honest brokers in all this should maybe think about what they post.
-
I agree, absolutely, with the point about perceived v 'real' truth in post 292 BST. It is transcendentally vital. My thought, when I wrote about angels and pins, was that entrenched positions on this thread seem to me to be completely vacuous in the absence of almost any concrete data. Just like those who argued in favour of the angels dancing...
And that, btw, is why I value so highly your consistent reviewing of data that is certain, the conclusions that can legitimately be drawn from it and the emotional, often agenda driven, unsubstantiated waffle from both sides. As a seeker after truth I reckon you are incomparable on this forum.
BobG
-
''Identifying Possible Crater from Gaza Hospital Blast''
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/
-
ncrover,
The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.
Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.
I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.
You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?
-
I don't trust either side nor the US to come up with the truth surrounding this latest atrocity, independence is vital.
''UN demands investigation into hospital attack in Gaza
'It is essential that there could be some form of investigation into this,' says UN spokesman''
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/un-demands-investigation-into-hospital-attack-in-gaza/3025413#:~:text=When%20asked%20by%20Anadolu%20whether,done%20by%20way%20of%20investigation.%22
-
Not many focussing on the siege that is being enacted and the raids on targets of Hamas sympathisers in the West Bank and the border with Lebanon. The hospital situation a you did it, no you did it subject , done dusted just a side track of the bigger picture. Israel are now being systematic with pointed attacks on both sides of the border, not committing major force that can inflame outside influences too much, but sorting out some of the groups that are a threat near the border.
The only way out of it I can see is the Hamas biting the bullet and releasing any hostages they took and then the difficulty of them very numbers and how many might have been murdered in cold blood could become a bigger problem.
It's a mess, but Israel are slowly taking control of the situation and hold the cards military wise.
Meanwhile they are wearing the opposition down with lack of supplies and sleep with the bombardment. It will go on for quite some time and while the US and Europe carry on backing Israel and the us aircraft carriers deployed I doubt the outside factions that would want to will make a major attack.
At the moment Israel are playing the military game right inflicting damage without deployment of armed forces on the ground, something Hamas wanted while strong and the chance of backing from Iran, who in this situation as it is at the moment are being held in check.
-
Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.
There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.
All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?
You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.
MM
Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.
Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?
The tweet is still there.
He’s put another one out calling for a ceasefire the day after fanning the flames.
-
Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.
Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation
An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m
Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!
Lot of unsupported emotive opinion in the links Albie, the fact that we have all been there, the difference being that some retract and or apologise.
There are some that have accused corbyn of being a terrorist (by association) and there are others that have tenuously tried to link Starmer to savile or breaking covid rules and most have not retracted nor apologised so I reckon that those trying to claim to be honest brokers in all this should maybe think about what they post.
Syd,
It is not helpful to say that "there are lots of unsupported opinions" and then not be specific about what they are.
No-one can reply to a blanket statement like that.
I agree with your point about the UN and an independent investigation, but as I posted, the USA have vetoed that at the UN.
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8yK0dyXgAAS932.jpg
Why would you do that, unless you were participating in a cover up?
ncRover,
Corbyn is right about an end to the bombing. A ceasefire is vital to prevent further bloodshed.
Israel have, under pressure, conceding limited supplies can be allowed in from Egypt, but at the same time not committed to ceasing attacks.
So what is going to happen when these supplies are allowed in, eventually?
They are still held at the closed border.
-
ncrover,
The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.
Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.
I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.
You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?
Ok ncRover, did the BBC reporter actually say what you put in quotations or did he 'pretty much' not say what you quoted?
-
ncrover,
The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.
Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.
I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.
You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?
Ok ncRover, did the BBC reporter actually say what you put in quotations or did he 'pretty much' not say what you quoted?
I couldn’t find the video sorry but have done now
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714475447759544426?s=46
-
Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.
-
Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.
He's pretty much saying that. He says that Israel denied they were responsible then said "But it's difficult to see...what else this could be but an Israeli airstrike."
Very, very poor journalism. It turns out that it is extremely unlikely that it was an Israeli airstrike. The journalist was going way beyond reporting facts and into editorialising.
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Not good enough MM
You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.
It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.
We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.
There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.
All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?
You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.
MM
Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.
Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?
The tweet is still there.
He’s put another one out calling for a ceasefire the day after fanning the flames.
It's an utter disgrace that he's not retracted that Tweet. It demonstrates that he has absolutely no commitment to Objective Truth.
I'm ashamed that he ever led the party I support.
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Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.
Yeah apologies I shouldn’t have used the quotations marks if I couldn’t remember his wording.
The bbc website also ran with
“Hundreds killed in Israeli strike on Gaza hospital - Palestinian officials”
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There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities
Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.
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What do we know about the Hospital explosion?
I was listening to Radio 4 this morning when Nick Robinson was talking to an Israeli commentator (I think from the Foreign Ministry) who said that around a third of the Hamas rockets explode before impact, many over Gaza. As they are home made.
Nick Robinson then asked why nothing like this (the huge number of casualties from an exploding rocket) had ever happened before? The guy said it had numerous times. Robinson didn't follow this up but can anyone remember when 500 people were killed by a home made rocket in Gaza or Israel?
Islamic Jihad deny they were carring out a rocket attack at that time:
https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/netanyahu-deleted-a-post-on-x-about-a-struggle-against-children-of-darkness-around-the-time-of-a-tragic-hospital-explosion-in-gaza/articleshow/104509726.cms
Straight after the attack a 'social media advisor' to Netanyahu posted on twitter the IAF had attacked a terrorist base in the hospital. The tweet was soon deleted.
https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1714357150594588816
The Israeli government has a recent record of issuing false statements on atrocities. Witness the death of the journalist Shireen Abu Akleh.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
Yet the photos of the area after the explosion clearly dont show the site of an air attack.
But something exploded there. It's a good possibilty it was a terrorist rocket exploding. But if there was a rocket attack being launched then generally the Israeli's launch their own rockets to shoot these down (Iron Dome). What sort of a hole would one of these leave?
And surely there is going to be debris from whatever projectile it was?
No-one can say with certainty what caused the explosion as yet. But you can certainly throw doubt on anything anyone is claiming.
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There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities
Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.
Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.
The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.
Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?
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It would seem that the causality figure for this attack is being questioned the 500-800 figure is looking to be a lot less down to 10-50. Not a small number but substantially lower than that given out by the Palestinian Medical authority
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1715052590528971021
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Press conference by Anglican Archbishop Hosam Naoum, who run the Baptist Hospital.
The IDF had warned them three days in a row on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday, to evauate as it was likely to be the target of air strikes being carried out in the area.
Though he doesn't know who caused this particular explosion 'we are not military experts'.
Dont know if he gave casualty figures, haven't heard it all yet:
https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1714970229019725957
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It should not be overlooked that Gaza civilians would be far safer if Hamas didn’t fire rockets from populated civilian areas.
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There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities
Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.
Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.
The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.
Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?
Wilts.
Go and have a look at the area that was fire-damaged.
Go and have a look at how close to that area there were undamaged windows.
It is simply not credible that 500 people were killed in that sort of area. If you drew that circle around the grandstand of a packed football grandstand you wouldn't cover 500 people.
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It feels a bit like Wilts wants it to be Israeli forces that caused it
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It feels a bit like Wilts wants it to be Israeli forces that caused it
I couldn't say what Wilts wants but that's the impression that many on the Left have given by their increasingly contorted efforts to not accept the most likely reason.
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It is not getting any better, bodies of 20 Israeli children found today and the Body of a naked woman who had been bound up with wire!
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It is not getting any better, bodies of 20 Israeli children found today and the Bobby of a naked woman who had been bound up with wire!
That bloke on the video you linked said Hamas were freedom fighters BRR.
Did Mandela’s MK wing of the ANC do stuff like this?
Or did they use black South Africans as human shields?
No they didn’t.
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Hmm. The ANC were not above using violence. Don't forget history is always, always written by the winners.
BobG
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Ain al Assad airbase in central Iraq is under attack by Drones and Rockets, it’s a base which has US aircraft based on it source Al Jazeera.
On 8/1/2020 it was bombarded by Iranian Rockets after a strike by US drones on some Terrorist base in Iran.
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I wonder if the UN can get neutral troops, ie Indian, Chilean, Philipino , into the south Gaza are secure a safe Zone and get unlimited humanitarian supplies in. The are north of Waddi Gaza is going to disappear in a conflagration in the next few days and there needs to be a Safe zone for non combatants and UN troops to disarm and identify any Hamas trying to do a runner!
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US Destroyer Carnegie has come under Rocket attack off the Coast of Yemen, several missiles intercepted.
Possibly fired at the ship by Houthi Rebels, supplied by Iran
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https://twitter.com/LePoint/status/1714968013068230783
European intelligence sources saying the actual death toll at the hospital was 10-50
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I see that Palestinian police have retrieved the remains of the missile from the site. That's going to make interesting news when the "evidence" is produced
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I see that Palestinian police have retrieved the remains of the missile from the site. That's going to make interesting news when the "evidence" is produced
If it is “one of theirs” it might go missing.
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There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities
Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.
Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.
The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.
Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?
Wilts.
Go and have a look at the area that was fire-damaged.
Go and have a look at how close to that area there were undamaged windows.
It is simply not credible that 500 people were killed in that sort of area. If you drew that circle around the grandstand of a packed football grandstand you wouldn't cover 500 people.
As I understand it they are saying a lot of displaced people were sheltering in that compound, because they felt safer in an area surrounded by hospital buildings. This makes some sense to me.
There is a rough lawned area beside the carpark and this is supposed to be where the majority of casualties were.
Never the less it is a very large figure. My hunch is there were many casualties but the figure has been inflated. I doubt we will ever know the truth.
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Israeli Bombs have hit a Christian Church 15% of Palestinians are orthodox Christians.
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That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them, if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.
The issue over what Corbyn said is splitting hairs. What Stsrmer, Sunak and Biden, amongst other western leaders have said has given a green light to Israel. There's no hair splitting there.
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That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them, if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.
It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?
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That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them, if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.
It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?
I think what I said was 100% clear, including the bit where I said there were a great many other current Israeli crimes. The family told to move, then targeted by Israel and murdered. The Christian child killed in the Greek Orthodox Church murder. Hundreds of other cases, all sanctioned by Stsrmer, Sunak, Cleverly, Thornberry, Biden and so many other accomplices.
Why not discuss that? Or are you of the mind that an Israel cleared of the hospital bombing (by real balanced means, or even the likely pro Israel means) is in some way acting with humanity, or has been boxed into a corner, or isn't encouraged in the murder by western leaders?
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That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them, if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.
It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?
I think what I said was 100% clear, including the bit where I said there were a great many other current Israeli crimes. The family told to move, then targeted by Israel and murdered. The Christian child killed in the Greek Orthodox Church murder. Hundreds of other cases, all sanctioned by Stsrmer, Sunak, Cleverly, Thornberry, Biden and so many other accomplices.
Why not discuss that? Or are you of the mind that an Israel cleared of the hospital bombing (by real balanced means, or even the likely pro Israel means) is in some way acting with humanity, or has been boxed into a corner, or isn't encouraged in the murder by western leaders?
You can't even bring yourself to admit there is doubt?
Half the world believes Israel deliberately targeted 500 innocent people and they are furious about it. But Israel may well not have.
Personally I think there has been enough killing of innocents on both sides for a ceasefire to be called now. I think we're on the verge of something very dangerous, with implications that go way beyond Israel and both sides need to pull back.
I don't think that's going to happen though.
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For the non goldfish out there Thank you Tony Blair the blood will never wash off your legacy
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You can't even bring yourself to admit there is doubt?
Half the world believes Israel deliberately targeted 500 innocent people and they are furious about it. But Israel may well not have.
Personally I think there has been enough killing of innocents on both sides for a ceasefire to be called now. I think we're on the verge of something very dangerous, with implications that go way beyond Israel and both sides need to pull back.
I don't think that's going to happen though.
Yes, there is doubt over slot in the immediacy of war, that included. That's what I was saying. But the weight of murderous actions falls on Israel, it consistently has done throughout its existence.
The west's leaders with their "stand behind Israel stance have ramped this up. It is deliberate and disgusting, and does fit with a Zionists conspiracy. Why else be so warmongering?
I see people losing their jobs for daring to be anti Israel. That state is filth that courses throughout the west.
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There's no Zionist conspiracy. The US (and by extension the West) will support anything Israel does, up to and including genocide of the Palestinian people, because Israel is important to its interests in the region. But rather than admit that they're fine with wiping millions of people off the map for cynical realpolitik reasons, they dress it up in all this pearl-clutching. It's no more complex than that.
The US controls Israel, not the other way around.
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To be clear, I said it fits with a Zionist conspiracy.
Yes, Israel is a Western outpost in the middle east. If it wasn't there then other nations would be used in the same way - Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, anywhere. The whole politics there would be different.
Israel is there because lots of people with big political influence in the west and especially the US and UK, wanted it there for perverse religious reasons. Mainly Christians, but also a lot of Jews. Since its creation it also serves other purposes, including being that military outpost. Even now, the US could switch to using some other nation in the region as that outpost - the cost would likely be far less.
When you say the US controls Israel - you have to see it in the context of the above, plus ask "who" in the US is wanting Israel there and why.
But getting back to the western leaders saying what they have said, how can that hypocrisy, and evil be justified, and continually has been justified in the same way since Israel was created. Just for the sake of a military outpost? I think you can sense there is more than that. In Biden its more just being the mouthpiece for policy and US domination, but the ferver in Starmer and some others, is palpable. It's insane.
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Found this and all those saying Isreal has committed war crimes
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Found this and all those saying Isreal has committed war crimes
As you will also know, any "defence" has to be proportionate. Sure there is some flexibility around that. So, imagine someone has been punched by someone in the past, and has heard a threat that the person will beat their living brains out. Do you think it is the case that, in law, it is allowed for that threatened person to get a bunch of mates, a posse, together and go lynch that other man? That's what the article implies, very much so, and therefore what you are saying.
An indeed what our "human rights lawyer" is saying. Plus of course boy wonder Sunak, and brain dead Biden. And all those hangers on like Cleverly, Thornberry, the Board of Deputies. Complicit in murder the lot of them.
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As the letter says
“What is reasonable must be judged against the severity of the threatened outcome, which in Israel’s case, would be violent extinction.”
So any defence in Israel’s case would be proportional
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On the issue of proportion, here is the UN data from earlier years leading up to the current conflict;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF83O6HnWwAA48GY.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
Some of the reasons for the disparity are;
1) a brutal 50 year occupation
2) a blockade of Gaza
3) continued settlement expansion in the West Bank
4) IDF snipers shooting protesters
5) carpet bombing Gaza
6) targeting civilian infrastructure
Much more besides, so what is the appropriate proportionate response to that documented history?
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Don't worry everyone, the LGBQWERTY community is backing Palestine :suicide: yes, the people who would probably stone them in they went to Palestine :lol:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V04FrWOH_0Y&pp=ygUTR2F5cyBmb3IgcGFsaWVzdGluZQ%3D%3D
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Bristol, it is war and all the wars in my lifetime anyone who is interested in the slightest picks a side, and the others are the wrong doers, when both are, because soldiers are trained to kill as the opposition is going to kill them if they don't get in first.
Someone writing down the rules of war and waving their pieces of paper will not save anyone's life when the soldiers are in battle, add to that the hatred both sides in this conflict have for each other, and their on both sides total disdain and lack of sympathy for civilians in the area and you have what is unfolding before our eyes, both news agencies depicting the horrors committed by the other side, when their side are doing exactly the same things if they can get into a position to do so, killing and warmongering is what both sides have been training and planning for years.
So us bystanders at the moment pick a side and go along with them, your sympathy is with the Palestinians others Israel, very few will change their mind. It's not worth arguing about, its gone too far what will be will be now, the same in Ukraine.
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No. I refuse to pick a side, even though a member of our family by marriage is an Israeli Jew who happens to have discovered one of her best friends has had her mother abducted. One of my best friends at school was an Egyption Muslim, his Dad of course being a doctor working in the NHS.
It may be because I have never had religious beliefs, for me what it comes down to essentially is a massive blood feud over fairy tales. I can't comprehend how people can actually murder one another about it. It is insanity.
As far as I'm concerned eventually there has to be a political solution. Things have calmed down massively in Ireland in my lifetime. It hasn't gone away yet but it shows things can change. Attitudes can change and people can change.
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Preliminary forensics now looking at the claims made by the Israelis after the hospital bombing, reported by Ch4News;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1715437255840407552/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/A75k01Pv8pwBD8Lz.mp4?tag=12
It seems that the "evidence" produced by the IDF has been manipulated, and should be disregarded.
It does not give proof of what did happen, but appears to rule out some of the IDF explanations.
As has been pointed out, they have form for this sort of deception.
Still, there will be useful idiots who repeat the propaganda to all who will listen.
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Albie, the hospital thing has gone, done, dusted, only something to argue about, the media using it on both sides to blame the other side, who did it does it matter? just something to argue about that cannot be put back right, just like the shooting down of the Dutch airliner in the Ukraine nothing will be done about it for years if at all.
My fear is there will be worse things to come, the Israelis seem intent on flattening the place if that is what it takes to get rid of Hamas, and are doing it without a full scale invasion at the moment.
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Preliminary forensics now looking at the claims made by the Israelis after the hospital bombing, reported by Ch4News;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1715437255840407552/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/A75k01Pv8pwBD8Lz.mp4?tag=12
It seems that the "evidence" produced by the IDF has been manipulated, and should be disregarded.
It does not give proof of what did happen, but appears to rule out some of the IDF explanations.
As has been pointed out, they have form for this sort of deception.
Still, there will be useful idiots who repeat the propaganda to all who will listen.
This report is produced by Earshot. An entity of one Lawrence Abu Hamdan, an artist based in Beirut, born in Jordan who grew up in York.
He seems to do an awful lot of work investigating Israeli actions. A quick Google reveals this about his working practices...
His way of investigating refuses the classic modes of critique, implicating himself into the story he is analyzing, and using the tools he has available, as well as his training as an artist, in order to produce an aesthetic outcome which collapses the question and the relationship between aesthetics and politics. For Abu Hamdan any aesthetic has a political impact and implications, as well as critical consequences. Aesthetics can produce narratives as well.
....now to me an artist who is refusing "classic modes of critique" and using "aesthetics to produce narratives" doesn't appear to be particularly forensic.
It is unconventional, I'm not dismissing this, I just wondered where this evidence was coming from and how reliable it is. There maybe more to it.
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I've never understood why both sides, but especially the Israelis as the newcomers, don't remind themselves that when something isn't working doing more and more of the same, will absolutely not change the outcome.
No matter what one might think of Tony Blair and his government , at least he realised that more and more of the same in Ulster just would not do. Colombia and FARC. Perú and Sendero Luminoso. Even Spain and ETA. There's plenty of examples around that all these cretins could look at. Just what future does more of the same offer both sides???? Israel will never 'crush' Hamas no matter how violent they become. Hamas will never eject the Israelis.
Brain dead the lot of 'em.
If something isn't working then change what you do!! f**king rocket science that eh??
BobG
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.
The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?
And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.
The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?
And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.
They aren't going to eliminate 2 million Gazans. Even if they push them all off the land, which I doubt they will, those people will still exist somewhere, Egypt, the West Bank, Jordan, Labanon, somewhere. The consequence will likely be another radicalised generation bent on revenge and more violence in future.
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That next generation of radicalised individuals is already on a boat ready to be safely let into this country courtesy of the liberals.
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I've never understood why both sides, but especially the Israelis as the newcomers, don't remind themselves that when something isn't working doing more and more of the same, will absolutely not change the outcome.
No matter what one might think of Tony Blair and his government , at least he realised that more and more of the same in Ulster just would not do. Colombia and FARC. Perú and Sendero Luminoso. Even Spain and ETA. There's plenty of examples around that all these cretins could look at. Just what future does more of the same offer both sides???? Israel will never 'crush' Hamas no matter how violent they become. Hamas will never eject the Israelis.
Brain dead the lot of 'em.
If something isn't working then change what you do!! f**king rocket science that eh??
BobG
I think like someone else said previously the parallel to be draw is with the lessons learnt in Northern Ireland.
No issue is totally unsolvable but it marks a very a very big difference when your main sponsors realise what their blood money has been achieving.
Once the Irish American lobby realised what in effect they were buying into the whole bubble burst.
Its going to take the same sort of mindset from the Israeli lobby in the states for this problem to reach some sort of a conclusion. These atrocities may just be the start, i'm thinking its going to get very much worse before it can get better.
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There must be a good chance of that DD. And that worries me even more. Imagine if Israel really does go in as they say they will. What odds then on a huge broadening of the scope and scale of the conflict? The consequences of that for us all are incalculable - though it's easy to see the probable result in Ukraine.
BobG
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As the letter says
“What is reasonable must be judged against the severity of the threatened outcome, which in Israel’s case, would be violent extinction.”
So any defence in Israel’s case would be proportional
Yep, if you violate and oppress a people, they will come after you. However, that genocide theory is bullshit, definitely proposed by the psycho ultra Zionists, a d then promoted by folks that fall for it.
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.
The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?
And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.
Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer, are the problem.
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Educate me please how can Israel wipe out Hamas? They are basically a guerilla organisation hidng amongst the civilian population. Unless Israel intends to round up every male from early teenager onwards they will never wipe it out
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.
The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?
And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.
Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer, are the problem.
Read that again. Israel can anhilate Hamas - in Gaza.
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That next generation of radicalised individuals is already on a boat ready to be safely let into this country courtesy of the liberals.
F*cking hell you're boring.
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Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza ifthrough military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.
Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.
The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?
And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.
Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer, are the problem.
Read that again. Israel can anhilate Hamas - in Gaza.
Alright if you're being pedantic, it might be possible to remove the Hamas threat from Gaza if the objective is a landgrab but it would be highly controversial and very, very difficult and costly. My point is it won't get rid of the Palestinian extremists anyway.
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I think you will find that they have done facial recognition on all those idiots who have been filmed, taking part in the 7 October assault, they are all dead men walking, there must be several hundred of them, then if the IDF goes in they will annihilate any Hamas fighters who take them on.
I suspect that any attack on Hamas in Gaza will be slow methodical and there will be ample opportunities for non combatants to get out of the way.
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Suspecting something is hardly a sound basis for making policy and pre-determining responses....
But yes. Those identified will not have long careers.
BobG
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I think you will find that they have done facial recognition on all those idiots who have been filmed, taking part in the 7 October assault, they are all dead men walking, there must be several hundred of them, then if the IDF goes in they will annihilate any Hamas fighters who take them on.
I suspect that any attack on Hamas in Gaza will be slow methodical and there will be ample opportunities for non combatants to get out of the way.
Perhaps but it won't stop a new generation of Hamas fighters in Gaza, if Gaza is allowed to continue to exist as an Arab enclave.
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I think you will find that they have done facial recognition on all those idiots who have been filmed, taking part in the 7 October assault, they are all dead men walking, there must be several hundred of them, then if the IDF goes in they will annihilate any Hamas fighters who take them on.
I suspect that any attack on Hamas in Gaza will be slow methodical and there will be ample opportunities for non combatants to get out of the way.
Perhaps but it won't stop a new generation of Hamas fighters in Gaza, if Gaza is allowed to continue to exist as an Arab enclave.
If I were the Israelites I would make sure that the future will include a buffer Zone garrisoned by the UN as you have in Cypress
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Sounds like Israel’s new master plan is to completely cut all ties with The Gaza Strip. I can envisage a very big wall. Very heavily guarded. Land and sea. All water and power cut off. No cross border working. No one allowed in, no one allowed out.
It’s already an unpleasant place to live.
It’s going to get alot worse.
A prison of a country.
Social, economical and geographical isolation. A bit like North Korea.
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
"preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide.
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What a surprise!
UK arms industry are making a ripe profit supplying the Israeli government, no questions asked;
Private Eye News: Reality bites
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/news
Never thought that, what with us on the moral high ground and all.
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Or we could be really good and sell anything to anybody like the Russians, Chinese, French, and a host of others albie.
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Or we could be really good and sell anything to anybody like the Russians, Chinese, French, and a host of others albie.
Like when you walk down the street and see someone selling crack and think, "Yeah, I'll start doing that, don't want to miss out on making a few quid, I mean, everyone else is doing it."
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There is a difference Bristol, selling drugs can get you into trouble, selling arms openly doesn't, same problem though if you don't somebody else will.
And talking blarney about British firms when the rest of the world is walking about with Kalashnikov assault rifles across their chest
and ammo belts across the shoulder is ignoring reality.
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But reality would have kids down the pits, a flat world, Negroes as slaves and women as chattels of their men.
Sometimes you do have to ignore reality...
BobG
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Just to be clear Selby, are you saying UK arms dealers should be selling to Putin, because Russia invading Ukraine is a great business opportunity?
I am struggling to see the difference between that and selling to the Israeli government, to enable their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank......ethics don't come into it, it is just about using the market potential!
Terrorists can be good customers!
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
Two weeks ago the largest terrorist raid in history was missed by the best intelligence force in the world.
I guarantee your surveillance technology can't see hundreds of yards underground.
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Just to be clear Selby, are you saying UK arms dealers should be selling to Putin, because Russia invading Ukraine is a great business opportunity?
I am struggling to see the difference between that and selling to the Israeli government, to enable their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank......ethics don't come into it, it is just about using the market potential!
Terrorists can be good customers!
Albie , you are starting to lose the plot, on 7 Oct GAZA Terrorists invaded Isreal Raping and Murdering, chopping babies to bits,they took 200 captives some UK Citizens, the Isaraelis have every right to get their People back.
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And the Palestinians have every right to get back their illegally occupied land too.
BobG
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
Two weeks ago the largest terrorist raid in history was missed by the best intelligence force in the world.
I guarantee your surveillance technology can't see hundreds of yards underground.
Israel knew about coming attacks. They were told by Egypt for one. It doesn't add up, they would never have thought "ah well, see what happens".
I think the bigger picture is Netanyahu and others wanted this to save themselves, lay down their name in history, have an opportunity to expand Israeli territory further, gain more support, arms, money, from the US and others. Kinda obvious really.
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Just to be clear Selby, are you saying UK arms dealers should be selling to Putin, because Russia invading Ukraine is a great business opportunity?
I am struggling to see the difference between that and selling to the Israeli government, to enable their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank......ethics don't come into it, it is just about using the market potential!
Terrorists can be good customers!
Albie , you are starting to lose the plot, on 7 Oct GAZA Terrorists invaded Isreal Raping and Murdering, chopping babies to bits,they took 200 captives some UK Citizens, the Isaraelis have every right to get their People back.
Terrorists - Israel have taken on that role with enthusiasm. Please don't be fooled by language use like that. It helps no one except the biggest bullies and abusers.
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Just to be clear Selby, are you saying UK arms dealers should be selling to Putin, because Russia invading Ukraine is a great business opportunity?
I am struggling to see the difference between that and selling to the Israeli government, to enable their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank......ethics don't come into it, it is just about using the market potential!
Terrorists can be good customers!
Albie , you are starting to lose the plot, on 7 Oct GAZA Terrorists invaded Isreal Raping and Murdering, chopping babies to bits,they took 200 captives some UK Citizens, the Isaraelis have every right to get their People back.
How does carpet bombing Gaza help get the hostages back?
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And the Palestinians have every right to get back their illegally occupied land too.
BobG
I agree with you Bob But what has that got to do with my comment?
Have the Terrorists who are hiding behind women and children stopped firing missiles into Israel?
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And in other news , it's good that peace is seemingly restored in Ukraine given it presence in the news of late as attention turns elsewhere .Does make you wonder if Putin helped with this a certainly impacted on the reporting if not funding , yet.
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Just to be clear Selby, are you saying UK arms dealers should be selling to Putin, because Russia invading Ukraine is a great business opportunity?
I am struggling to see the difference between that and selling to the Israeli government, to enable their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank......ethics don't come into it, it is just about using the market potential!
Terrorists can be good customers!
Albie , you are starting to lose the plot, on 7 Oct GAZA Terrorists invaded Isreal Raping and Murdering, chopping babies to bits,they took 200 captives some UK Citizens, the Isaraelis have every right to get their People back.
How does carpet bombing Gaza help get the hostages back?
They are not carpet bombing Gaza though are they, a bit more misinformation that keeps cropping up
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:):)
If the Israelis are not carpet bombing then they're managing to hit a helluva lot of civilians aren't they? Guidance systems faulty? And then there's the massively illegal blockade on water, medicines and food. To my mind that's carpet bombing by another means.
BobG
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It is not the responsibility of your enemy to provide you with water, medicine fuel etc.
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True. But it is highly illegal, morally bankrupt and offensive.
BobG
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If it’s true why is it illegal?
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It is not the responsibility of your enemy to provide you with water, medicine fuel etc.
It is the responsibility of an occupying force to do that, though. Israel controls all of that infrastructure and expressly prohibits Palestinians from building their own. This is also the case in the West Bank, where Hamas has little to no presence, by the way.
It's also illegal to forcibly displace people into a "safe zone" and then bomb the f**k out of that "safe zone", because if that isn't collective punishment I don't know what is.
I'm sure you're right that Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza, I'm sure these buildings and entire city blocks are just falling down in a strong breeze.
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
Two weeks ago the largest terrorist raid in history was missed by the best intelligence force in the world.
I guarantee your surveillance technology can't see hundreds of yards underground.
Israel knew about coming attacks. They were told by Egypt for one. It doesn't add up, they would never have thought "ah well, see what happens".
I think the bigger picture is Netanyahu and others wanted this to save themselves, lay down their name in history, have an opportunity to expand Israeli territory further, gain more support, arms, money, from the US and others. Kinda obvious really.
So what?
My post was in response to someone saying how good the Israeli surveillance is by pointing out their massive failure. If you are going to reply at least keep it relevant and on topic.
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Netanyahu is f**ked by this. He'll go down in history alright. As the man who had everyone's attention focussed on his own criminality, and failed to spot the biggest non-state terror attack in history.
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It is not the responsibility of your enemy to provide you with water, medicine fuel etc.
Preventing medical aid & supplies to civilians is a war crime. As is deliberately targetting civilian populations.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1206157206/israel-hamas-war-crimes-international-law-geneva-convention
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Neither Sunak nor Starmer can bring themselves to call for a ceasefire, followed by an exchange of hostages.
It is so clear that this needs to happen, yet neither has the integrity to admit it.
The latest diversion is a "humanitarian pause", where there is a temporary halt, then resume hostilities once a bit more aid gets in.
There is an obvious moral vacuum at the heart of UK politics, where these charlatans jockey for position without ethical consideration.
Both factions of the uniparty are unfit for office.
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The current conflict offers a "unique and rare opportunity" for the “relocation and final settlement (into Egypt) of the entire Gaza population.” - Misgav Institute for National Security & Zionist Strategy.
Palestinians in Gaza should be displaced from Gaza to the Sinai & 'other countries' and a “sterile zone”, several kilometers wide established within Egypt.
From a secret leaked report drawn up by the Israeli Intelligence Ministry.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/?utm_content=buffera2434&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer
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f**king Israelis....
f**king Arthur Balfour
f**king Hamas, Hezbollah.
When, if, they all learn to talk, this would be far, far more likely to be resolved.
Anyone know any good teachers out there?
BobG
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The current conflict offers a "unique and rare opportunity" for the “relocation and final settlement (into Egypt) of the entire Gaza population.” - Misgav Institute for National Security & Zionist Strategy.
Palestinians in Gaza should be displaced from Gaza to the Sinai & 'other countries' and a “sterile zone”, several kilometers wide established within Egypt.
From a secret leaked report drawn up by the Israeli Intelligence Ministry.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/?utm_content=buffera2434&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer
There are several weird and somewhat bizarre elements of the Jewish Israeli Population, the summer months prior to 7 October saw a very extreme element seemingly start to wholly take over the Goverment, it got that bad that many moderate Isrealis didn't want to be there anymore ! I would hope that the unification of the Government will lead to a more moderate approach, probably spurred on by Bidens Billions $.
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It is not the responsibility of your enemy to provide you with water, medicine fuel etc.
Preventing medical aid & supplies to civilians is a war crime. As is deliberately targetting civilian populations.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1206157206/israel-hamas-war-crimes-international-law-geneva-convention
As the boarder between Gaza and Egypt is open and aid is moving through, however slowly, medical aid can get in
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
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I see Israel has started attacking the West Bank and Syria. This seems an unnecessary and very dangerous escalation to me.
They will be preemptive strikes, I guarantee that a mouse fart won’t go unnoticed in that part of the world with all of the surveillance technology in operation!
Two weeks ago the largest terrorist raid in history was missed by the best intelligence force in the world.
I guarantee your surveillance technology can't see hundreds of yards underground.
Israel knew about coming attacks. They were told by Egypt for one. It doesn't add up, they would never have thought "ah well, see what happens".
I think the bigger picture is Netanyahu and others wanted this to save themselves, lay down their name in history, have an opportunity to expand Israeli territory further, gain more support, arms, money, from the US and others. Kinda obvious really.
So what?
My post was in response to someone saying how good the Israeli surveillance is by pointing out their massive failure. If you are going to reply at least keep it relevant and on topic.
Your point included that Israel's intelligence was poor. I suggested that it wasn't, it knew full well what was being planned, probably even the date, and Israel kept its forces laxed and away from any Hamas attack so that it could try for the butchery it is currently dishing out. Plus supporting the wider aim of gaining international back up, money, arms, political support. Makes sense don't you think? And very much related to what you said.
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
That’s a very good point, what about the folks who clearly were aware of Hamas digging up miles of newly laid water pipes to make missiles by saying nothing they are complicit in their own fate!
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Any proof where the pipe came from sprot?
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Any proof where the pipe came from sprot?
Hamas boasted it could use EU-funded pipelines to attack Israel
184,085 views · 2 weeks ago#Hamas #Gaza #Israel
...more
You tube fro Daily Telegraph
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If it's in the tele it must be true
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
That's rather stretching a comparison.
Your analogy would work if David Cameron had narrowly won an election in 2006 with nothing close to a majority of votes. Then there'd been a bloody civil war between Labour and Tory supporters which Cameron's side won. Then all subsequent elections were cancelled and Cameron's party ruled as a military dictatorship. And folk on here said when things went wrong in 2023, it was the fault of the entire population because of the vote in 2006.
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
That's rather stretching a comparison.
Your analogy would work if David Cameron had narrowly won an election in 2006 with nothing close to a majority of votes. Then there'd been a bloody civil war between Labour and Tory supporters which Cameron's side won. Then all subsequent elections were cancelled and Cameron's party ruled as a military dictatorship. And folk on here said when things went wrong in 2023, it was the fault of the entire population because of the vote in 2006.
Stretching or not, it’s a valid question, if you reap what you sow
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If it's in the tele it must be true
Unlike your favourite rag then Syd?
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
You call that a comparison? Israel took Palestinian land, has murdered and imprisoned a great many of its population, has ghettoised most of the rest, has made them second class citizens in their home land. You think they should sit back and take it? Would you if your home was broken into, you were forced to live in a shed in your garden whilst they had the house, they chose when you could have power for your stove and light bulb, your child had been shot, your wife raped, you were working for a fraction of the wages of your captors, and then frequently laid off, your shed now just bulldozed coz your captors want a fish pond just there, but there's a spot in the far corner of the garden where they'll let you build another shed from the scraps of the old one, and then they throw rocks at that smashing in your roof, breaking the skull of your other child, etc etc.
If you're making a comparison, do open your eyes first.
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I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
You call that a comparison? Israel took Palestinian land, has murdered and imprisoned a great many of its population, has ghettoised most of the rest, has made them second class citizens in their home land. You think they should sit back and take it? Would you if your home was broken into, you were forced to live in a shed in your garden whilst they had the house, they chose when you could have power for your stove and light bulb, your child had been shot, your wife raped, you were working for a fraction of the wages of your captors, and then frequently laid off, your shed now just bulldozed coz your captors want a fish pond just there, but there's a spot in the far corner of the garden where they'll let you build another shed from the scraps of the old one, and then they throw rocks at that smashing in your roof, breaking the skull of your other child, etc etc.
If you're making a comparison, do open your eyes first.
Dunno, maybe I should ask a Ukrainian?
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
-
I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
You call that a comparison? Israel took Palestinian land, has murdered and imprisoned a great many of its population, has ghettoised most of the rest, has made them second class citizens in their home land. You think they should sit back and take it? Would you if your home was broken into, you were forced to live in a shed in your garden whilst they had the house, they chose when you could have power for your stove and light bulb, your child had been shot, your wife raped, you were working for a fraction of the wages of your captors, and then frequently laid off, your shed now just bulldozed coz your captors want a fish pond just there, but there's a spot in the far corner of the garden where they'll let you build another shed from the scraps of the old one, and then they throw rocks at that smashing in your roof, breaking the skull of your other child, etc etc.
If you're making a comparison, do open your eyes first.
Dunno, maybe I should ask a Ukrainian?
That reply justifies what I said. Poor show.
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
-
But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
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It is not the responsibility of your enemy to provide you with water, medicine fuel etc.
Preventing medical aid & supplies to civilians is a war crime. As is deliberately targetting civilian populations.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1206157206/israel-hamas-war-crimes-international-law-geneva-convention
As the boarder between Gaza and Egypt is open and aid is moving through, however slowly, medical aid can get in
Is it? And has medical aid been allowed in?
-
I’m curious, given the ferocity with which certain posters have hammered the point that conservative voters have to share responsibility for this governments actions and that brexiteers have to hold their hands up to how the country is fairing since brexit how they feel about the Palestinians who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza in 2007?
Dunno. What did the people who voted the conservatives into power say about this governent's action?
From memory some of them have never critisised this government. And the reply form others has been 'But Labour'.
Bit weird conflating the two tho. And bombs and missiles dont differentiate between pro and anti Hamas Palestinians.
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Clearly you have checked the accuracy of this post before posting it as true?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-claims-of-fuel-tanks-held-by-hamas-lie-gaza-government/3032504
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Clearly you have checked the accuracy of this post before posting it as true?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-claims-of-fuel-tanks-held-by-hamas-lie-gaza-government/3032504
So Hamas are saying they’re not full, yep I’ll believe that then. But you’ve not challenged my point that Hamas stole fuel for hospitals from the UNRWA
Let’s face it Hamas aren’t particularly good at telling the truth
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1717545562893947218
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Not whatifery. The land was stolen by Zionists, its a fact. Tho I think you meant whataboutery, in which case you missed my point which is that you're getting caught in faffing around with minuti. Israel in particular is very good at distracting from the main point, the root cause, the problem they flatly refuse to acknowledge - they have stolen land, they are abusers, they are hipocrites of the very worst and twisted kind.
-
I naively hoped that the article in this link would make people stop and think.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289088.msg1264038#msg1264038
But of course, people don't want to stop and think about such an impossible situation. They want the certainty that they are right and the other side wrong.
And so it goes...
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BRR I don’t agree one little bit with Israel stealing land and settling on it. Do you think Russia trying to steal land from Ukraine is any different though?
You think it is OK for Russia to want a buffer zone between NATO and itself but decry Israel for retaining land taken after an invasion rather than in Russia’s case wanting to keep land after an invasion.
It’s not that simple I know but can’t you see any similarities between Russia and Hamas?
Meanwhile thousands of innocents are losing their lives in both conflicts.
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Not whatifery. The land was stolen by Zionists, its a fact. Tho I think you meant whataboutery, in which case you missed my point which is that you're getting caught in faffing around with minuti. Israel in particular is very good at distracting from the main point, the root cause, the problem they flatly refuse to acknowledge - they have stolen land, they are abusers, they are hipocrites of the very worst and twisted kind.
Again your missing the point and that point isn’t to do with what happens 40, 50, 60 years ago, who’s right and who’s wrong but what’s happening now and that there would be fuel for the hospitals if Hamas hadn’t stolen it from the UN. Simple when you think about it and not try and come up with whataboutery to muddy the waters
-
I naively hoped that the article in this link would make people stop and think.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289088.msg1264038#msg1264038
But of course, people don't want to stop and think about such an impossible situation. They want the certainty that they are right and the other side wrong.
And so it goes...
Stop and think about what?they have been falling out in the holy land for thousands of years, hamas
Had months to plan the Attack and they clearly knew what the consequences would be for the Population of Gaza!
-
I naively hoped that the article in this link would make people stop and think.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289088.msg1264038#msg1264038
But of course, people don't want to stop and think about such an impossible situation. They want the certainty that they are right and the other side wrong.
And so it goes...
Stop and think about what?they have been falling out in the holy land for thousands of years, hamas
Had months to plan the Attack and they clearly knew what the consequences would be for the Population of Gaza!
QE-f**king-D
-
I naively hoped that the article in this link would make people stop and think.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289088.msg1264038#msg1264038
But of course, people don't want to stop and think about such an impossible situation. They want the certainty that they are right and the other side wrong.
And so it goes...
Whilst there is some good there, he refers to Hamas as a terror organisation, which Israeli forces are equally if not a worse terror organisation. He brushes aside the history in a pro Israeli way, ignores the very influential Christian and Jewish Zionists movements. He belittles Hamas as just wanting revenge - well no bloody wonder they do. The Palestinians have been the victims of something not far from the holocaust, smaller in numbers but in a similar style.
-
But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Not whatifery. The land was stolen by Zionists, its a fact. Tho I think you meant whataboutery, in which case you missed my point which is that you're getting caught in faffing around with minuti. Israel in particular is very good at distracting from the main point, the root cause, the problem they flatly refuse to acknowledge - they have stolen land, they are abusers, they are hipocrites of the very worst and twisted kind.
Again your missing the point and that point isn’t to do with what happens 40, 50, 60 years ago, who’s right and who’s wrong but what’s happening now and that there would be fuel for the hospitals if Hamas hadn’t stolen it from the UN. Simple when you think about it and not try and come up with whataboutery to muddy the waters
Reactive perspectives don't work for long, if at all, unless the background is assimilated.
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BRR I don’t agree one little bit with Israel stealing land and settling on it. Do you think Russia trying to steal land from Ukraine is any different though?
You think it is OK for Russia to want a buffer zone between NATO and itself but decry Israel for retaining land taken after an invasion rather than in Russia’s case wanting to keep land after an invasion.
It’s not that simple I know but can’t you see any similarities between Russia and Hamas?
Meanwhile thousands of innocents are losing their lives in both conflicts.
I can see similarity but on balance I see more similarity between Russia and Israel. And then the situation is starkly different in almost every way.
The bigger picture where ordinary people suffer whilst gangsters use them as pawns, and weaponise various issues, and take the money, is what is most similar. Gangsters including the leaders (not so much the figureheads) of Hamas, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, UK, EU, NATO, China, Saudi etc etc etc.
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But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Clearly you have checked the accuracy of this post before posting it as true?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-claims-of-fuel-tanks-held-by-hamas-lie-gaza-government/3032504
So Hamas are saying they’re not full, yep I’ll believe that then. But you’ve not challenged my point that Hamas stole fuel for hospitals from the UNRWA
Let’s face it Hamas aren’t particularly good at telling the truth
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1717545562893947218
It's not up to me to challenge your post. It's up to you to provide evidence (other than from the Israeli government) that it's true?
The Israeli government who lied over the killing of a journalist (Shireen Abu Akleh).
-
I naively hoped that the article in this link would make people stop and think.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289088.msg1264038#msg1264038
But of course, people don't want to stop and think about such an impossible situation. They want the certainty that they are right and the other side wrong.
And so it goes...
Stop and think about what?they have been falling out in the holy land for thousands of years, hamas
Had months to plan the Attack and they clearly knew what the consequences would be for the Population of Gaza!
So are you saying that the Israeli government and IDF are giving Hamas what they want?
Have a think about that for a moment.
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Press reporting Gaza is totally dark, no phone or internet signal at all anymore. Outside of satellite phones, it's going to be tough to get any reports of the impending ground operations out of Gaza.
-
https://twitter.com/HalaJaber/status/1717674365469253854
"7,028 #Palestinians killed in #Israeli strikes/shelling
including
2,913 children
2,406 men
1,709 women
Of the men & women killed:
397 are elderly
29 #UN staff (#UNRWA)
101 health care workers
& at least 24 journalists
Among the 18482 injured:
7,521 are men
6,168 are children
4,793 are women.
An estimated 1650 are reported missing including 940 children."
Flat out cowardly murderers, terrorists, nothing else. In the process they're condemming more Jews to be killed, more terrorists to join groups to attack the US and the west. Yet politicians worldwide promote this and get positive air time rather than prison for inciting genocide. And yet various people here are prepared to vote for them.
-
But for almost 2 weeks it couldn't. And even now it is only a trickle. Seen the hospitals shutting down for lack of fuel? It was, and still is, a war crime.
40% of the 6,000 Palestinians killed so far are children. With Israel possessing plenty of American precision guided weapons how do you account for that Gloster? Can't they set the dials straight? Looks mighty like indiscriminate killing to me. Sort of like carpet bombing really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67223273
Makes you think the animals in Hamas are more than matched by the animals in Israel. Doesn't Israel portray itself as civilised...?
BobG
One of the reasons why there is a lack of fuel for the hospitals is because Hamas stole it
https://twitter.com/SBarrettBar/status/1717262010918821954
Maybe instead of blaming Israel some should look closer to home for the reason
Or maybe focus on the fact that Israeli Jews stole Palestinian land? Deflecting on such minor points like you did is blithely regurgitating the propaganda of a murderous colonial apartheid regime.
Once again you miss the point and blow smoke to obscure the truth when you’ve nothing better to say
What is the point?
If you read the post you’d realise that the point of the post is that the fuel was stolen by Hamas, therefore there would be fuel to power the hospital if they hadn’t. But you knew that you like to blow smoke with a whole load of whatifary
Plus this
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1716884494131868138
But I don’t expect you to believe it because of the source of the information but I’ll post it anyway.
Clearly you have checked the accuracy of this post before posting it as true?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-claims-of-fuel-tanks-held-by-hamas-lie-gaza-government/3032504
So Hamas are saying they’re not full, yep I’ll believe that then. But you’ve not challenged my point that Hamas stole fuel for hospitals from the UNRWA
Let’s face it Hamas aren’t particularly good at telling the truth
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1717545562893947218
It's not up to me to challenge your post. It's up to you to provide evidence (other than from the Israeli government) that it's true?
The Israeli government who lied over the killing of a journalist (Shireen Abu Akleh).
And it’s up to you to provide evidence that the evidence I provide isn’t true other than from Hamas.
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Clear evidence that the Biden administration is telling Netanyahu not to invade Gaza. There's a very big moment coming up.
https://x.com/JM_Szuba/status/1718059754172330057?s=20
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Aren’t Israeli troops and tanks already in Gaza.
-
Excellent analysis by Baroness Warsi, if somewhat one-sided on why the Oslo Accord process failed.
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1717786551508140452
She is one Tory I have a lot of time for.
-
And by Benzi Sanders, an ex-Israeli soldier, on why his government's current strategy can never work:
"'we're just killing them and we don’t provide alternatives... The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our govt [Israel] opposes. So, this govt can't defeat Hamas."
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717590321326956626
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Everything you need to know about Hamas in one minute
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718308457248416204
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Absobloodylutely!
Like I said before, Netanyahu and his cohorts are utterly brain dead. And so are militant Hamas. That does assume, of course, that the ultimate objective is peace and security - although the long term behaviours on display make one doubt that.
BobG
And by Benzi Sanders, an ex-Israeli soldier, on why his government's current strategy can never work:
"'we're just killing them and we don’t provide alternatives... The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our govt [Israel] opposes. So, this govt can't defeat Hamas."
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717590321326956626
-
I think Netanyahu has been itching to kill Palestinians since his brother was killed at Entebbe Airport by Palestinian terrorists
-
Absobloodylutely!
Like I said before, Netanyahu and his cohorts are utterly brain dead. And so are militant Hamas. That does assume, of course, that the ultimate objective is peace and security - although the long term behaviours on display make one doubt that.
BobG
And by Benzi Sanders, an ex-Israeli soldier, on why his government's current strategy can never work:
"'we're just killing them and we don’t provide alternatives... The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our govt [Israel] opposes. So, this govt can't defeat Hamas."
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717590321326956626
I said it earlier Hamas really cocked uo when they targeted Civilians in the manner that they did ,if it had merely been an Armed incursion into Israel and targeting Soldiers they would now have everybody’s support, a massive e strategic error on their part!
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And here’s what the Saudis think of the Palestinian
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718357352515023181
-
A quick scan through the various News Chanel’s, BBC, Al Jazeera, France 24 etc. it would now be the case that the invasion of Gaza started last night and there are thre main prongs of IDF forces fighting intensely in Gaza.
-
Absobloodylutely!
Like I said before, Netanyahu and his cohorts are utterly brain dead. And so are militant Hamas. That does assume, of course, that the ultimate objective is peace and security - although the long term behaviours on display make one doubt that.
BobG
And by Benzi Sanders, an ex-Israeli soldier, on why his government's current strategy can never work:
"'we're just killing them and we don’t provide alternatives... The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our govt [Israel] opposes. So, this govt can't defeat Hamas."
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717590321326956626
I said it earlier Hamas really cocked up when they targeted Civilians in the manner that they did ,if it had merely been an Armed incursion into Israel and targeting Soldiers they would now have everybody’s support, a massive strategic error on their part!
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Everything you need to know about Hamas in one minute
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718308457248416204
I stopped listening when the yankie? used "terror organisation" to describe Hamas. Cheap and meaningless. If you're going to use that rhetoric, Israel is more of a terror organisation, maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well? That's a valid perspective. Either way, they use terror. I assume the rest of the vid is as cheap, poor use of stats, logic, and is blind to Israel.
-
And here’s what the Saudis think of the Palestinian
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718357352515023181
What a psycho he is. Sounds like a fascist.
To correct you, this is what one man thinks of the situation. Using generalisations is inaccurate and usually comes with an agenda. Do you have skin in this game? Relatives? Or...?
-
Excellent analysis by Baroness Warsi, if somewhat one-sided on why the Oslo Accord process failed.
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1717786551508140452
She is one Tory I have a lot of time for.
She is across the detail and speaks clearly, I'll add that in any relationship that is unequal the dominant/controlling side sets the agenda and that's why in law the predator in almost every situation is in the wrong.
-
Clearing up any confusion surrounding settlements (not aimed anywhere)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
To those that say anyone can change Wikipedia entries, have a go.
-
Absobloodylutely!
Like I said before, Netanyahu and his cohorts are utterly brain dead. And so are militant Hamas. That does assume, of course, that the ultimate objective is peace and security - although the long term behaviours on display make one doubt that.
BobG
And by Benzi Sanders, an ex-Israeli soldier, on why his government's current strategy can never work:
"'we're just killing them and we don’t provide alternatives... The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our govt [Israel] opposes. So, this govt can't defeat Hamas."
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717590321326956626
I said it earlier Hamas really cocked uo when they targeted Civilians in the manner that they did ,if it had merely been an Armed incursion into Israel and targeting Soldiers they would now have everybody’s support, a massive e strategic error on their part!
And if Israel had concentrated on finding and arresting/eliminating Hamas terrorists rather than bombing and blowing up thousands of innocent women and children they would have everybody's support.
-
Clearing up any confusion surrounding settlements (not aimed anywhere)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
To those that say anyone can change Wikipedia entries, have a go.
A viewer speaks:
Who edited my wikipedia entry? I never dated Arthur Lowe of Dad's army. It was Arthur LOEW, Jr. of the famous cinematic dynasty-Gedditright!
https://twitter.com/Joancollinsdbe/status/112473160372334592
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Funny
-
And a bit of information on Israel/Palestine
https://twitter.com/P24576512/status/1718636395915362546
-
And a bit of information on Israel/Palestine
https://twitter.com/P24576512/status/1718636395915362546
For f**ks sake. There were Palestinian people living in that area who had their land forcibly taken from them by Israelis, many of whom had survived the Holocaust and descended from generations who had been treated like vermin.
There's no solution to this while people point their f**king fingers in one direction only.
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And a bit of information on Israel/Palestine
https://twitter.com/P24576512/status/1718636395915362546
He appears to have missed the bit - after 1947 there was a Palestinian state much of which Israel now occupies in defiance of at least 30 UN Security Council Resolutions and 99 UN Human Rights Council Resolutions.
And so did you.
Funny that.
-
The reporting on the "500 dead in Israeli attack on hospital" story is a car crash that the world's media needs to reflect on urgently.https://twitter.com/stevesi/status/1718367304126443933
It seems that all if them, in a stampede to be seen to be in the race to be first with the news, took a Hamas claim as being enough evidence to go with the story.
Like the guy says in that Tweet, this has had massive consequences. Apart from cementing the absolute certainty in some people's minds (Jeremy Corbyn, come on down) that Israel deliberately attacked a hospital killing hundreds, "the costs were extremely real. Saudi called off peace talks. Jordan cancelled meetings with the US President. Relief to civilians was certainly delayed. "
As I've said before, I hate what some Israeli leaders have done to Palestinians. But that doesn't mean we should accept every picture that Hamas paints of them.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
-
i knew the Rothchild's started buying up land in Palestine in the 1880's so I thought I would see what wikipedia says
or should I say I "thought" I Knew -
anyhow you might all want to read what wikipedia "says" whether it is all true or not I don't know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
-
And a bit of information on Israel/Palestine
https://twitter.com/P24576512/status/1718636395915362546
He appears to have missed the bit - after 1947 there was a Palestinian state much of which Israel now occupies in defiance of at least 30 UN Security Council Resolutions and 99 UN Human Rights Council Resolutions.
And so did you.
Funny that.
Funny that no there wasn’t
-
Clearing up any confusion surrounding settlements (not aimed anywhere)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
To those that say anyone can change Wikipedia entries, have a go.
My experience on wiki was that the Jewish editors were disproportionately high in numbers and very powerful. Some people cut their own throats.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
And this illustrate the extreme hipocrasy of the Zionists. Disgusting people.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
Ukraine and their Jewish president who've been called Nazis by the invading Russians have every right to call it out as quite frankly should the rest of the world.
Regardless of any of it, you can't justify those actions in Makhachkala, there's no defense for it.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
Ukraine and their Jewish president who've been called Nazis by the invading Russians have every right to call it out as quite frankly should the rest of the world.
Regardless of any of it, you can't justify those actions in Makhachkala, there's no defense for it.
BRR can find justifications for most things. It's quite a repulsive talent.
He's doing that thing he does regularly here. Dismissing or belittling anything that contradicts his world view.
-
:ohmy:
-
Looking at the military situation the IDF has blasted a sterile corridor into Gaza city,the pics on the news suggest that they are not worried about Hamas firing at them from derelict buildings, they will welcome it as they will simply turn the building into a pile of rubble’ at some point they will flood the tunnels with Sea water and the Terrorists will either drown or emerge to be killed.they the IDF is taking it carefully to rescue hostages and limit civilian casualties.
-
Looking at the military situation the IDF has blasted a sterile corridor into Gaza city,the pics on the news suggest that they are not worried about Hamas firing at them from derelict buildings, they will welcome it as they will simply turn the building into a pile of rubble’ at some point they will flood the tunnels with Sea water and the Terrorists will either drown or emerge to be killed.they the IDF is taking it carefully to rescue hostages and limit civilian casualties.
it's who do you believe netanyahu or unrwa? (nobody knows, you don't supply any links)
''Nearly 70% of those reported killed in Gaza are children and women, says UNRWA chief
The head of the UN relief agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) has warned that the level of destruction across Gaza “is unprecedented, the human tragedy unfolding under our watch is unbearable”''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/30/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-strikes-casualties-israel-targets-hit-syria-lebanon
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420 children are being injured or killed in Gaza DAILY
Children there are “experiencing terrible trauma, the consequences of which could last a lifetime”
UNICEF
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143002
As we have previously said, if Israel had concentrated on capturing or emilinating Hamas terrorists rather than eliminating or displacing the innocent civilian population of Gaza they may have more public sympathy.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
And this illustrate the extreme hipocrasy of the Zionists. Disgusting people.
BRR, given your contributions on this forum over the last 18 months you are in no position to judge anyone's morals.
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Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
If your default opinion on everything is just to be an anti-west contrarian, then you aren’t thinking for yourself.
Such consistent paranoid and conspiratorial thought patterns aren’t healthy.
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When quoting death toll in Gaza you might want to take a bit of salt with it as it seems miracles happen
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1719240719309640167
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Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
Ukraine and their Jewish president who've been called Nazis by the invading Russians have every right to call it out as quite frankly should the rest of the world.
Regardless of any of it, you can't justify those actions in Makhachkala, there's no defense for it.
I meant the riot was at least partly fed by Ukraine channels whipping up race hate. Logically speaking - of course they would weapinise this, they are desperate.
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Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
Ukraine and their Jewish president who've been called Nazis by the invading Russians have every right to call it out as quite frankly should the rest of the world.
Regardless of any of it, you can't justify those actions in Makhachkala, there's no defense for it.
BRR can find justifications for most things. It's quite a repulsive talent.
He's doing that thing he does regularly here. Dismissing or belittling anything that contradicts his world view.
Be specific, a nd acknowledge you chose to read what I said to fit your personal hate mission.
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Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
If your default opinion on everything is just to be an anti-west contrarian, then you aren’t thinking for yourself.
Such consistent paranoid and conspiratorial thought patterns aren’t healthy.
Are you paid by the BBC?
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The current military situation is that Israel are inflicting the maximum damage while at the same time minimising the risk to their own forces.
If the entrances to the tunnels are in buildings they will destroy the buildings and seal the entrances up with the rubble.
It will carry on for quite a while I think, very little change in tactics and more and more requests for an end to the destruction but little sign of outside forces helping the Palestinians but skirmishes in the rubble as the Palestinians get more desperate.
World opinion and probably fear of other Arab states joining the war have dictated Israel's tactics and changed the all out invasion thoughts, but will probably be a less threat to Israel's armed forces who are happy to turn it into what is a terrorist war they themselves are taking with small raids backed up with air power and artillery.
Modern warfare in urban areas always a fear of armies going back to a form of siege of cities and armed raids when opposition is recognised and coordinates noted to reduce the attackers casualties.
Certainly satellite and drone information will be now used to determine any large resistant areas entrance and exit to tunnels of particular interest. there will be no part of Gaza not covered by surveillance equipment.
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Wikileaks have published a verified document from the Israeli Ministry of Intelligence, setting out the Gaza strategy.
"A week after the Hamas attack, Israel's Ministry of Intelligence issued a secret ten-page document outlining the expulsion of the Palestinian population of Gaza to northern Sinai, in Egypt:
1. Instruct Palestinian civilians to vacate north Gaza ahead of land operations;
2. Sequential land operations from north to south Gaza;
3. Routes across Rafah to be left clear;
4. Establish tent cities in northern Sinai and construct cities to resettle Palestinians in Egypt
The document has been verified by an official from the Ministry of Intelligence, according to the Hebrew website Mekomit which originally published the document. Mekomit noted that documents from the Ministry of Intelligence are advisory and not binding on the executive."
Ethnic cleansing it is.
The bombing of essential civilian infrastructure, like hospitals and schools, is to make return impossible because of the lack of provision.
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Albie.
How does the last sentence of the very quote you posted tie in with your conclusions?
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Ethnic cleansing it has been from year dot by Israel, mirroring many sick murdering, thieving regimes of the past, including the USA.
Israel cutting a deal with Egypt to make a home for Palestinians is the carrot, murdering them, imprisoning them, making them 2nd class citizens, destroying their homes, destroying all amenities, etc etc is the stick. This is ethnic cleansing, an extreme human rights violation, a central tenet of Zionism.
-
Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
If your default opinion on everything is just to be an anti-west contrarian, then you aren’t thinking for yourself.
Such consistent paranoid and conspiratorial thought patterns aren’t healthy.
Are you paid by the BBC?
The BBC who instantly believed Hamas’ 500 dead by Israeli air strikes claims and reported on it?
I had the same cynical anti-establishment views on everything like you when I was an 18 year old uni student. Then I grew up.
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BST,
Israel ethnically cleansed in 1948 when it occupied and annexed Palestinian land for settler colonialism.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/15/nakba-mapping-palestinian-villages-destroyed-by-israel-in-1948
Since then, constant intimidation and displacement have been the norm, designed to reduce the viability of the Palestinian territories.
Bullet point 4 in the Wikileaks document describes an involuntary dispersal of Palestinian people from their homes and land, to a tented enclave in the Egyptian Sinai....this is a classic definition of ethnic cleansing.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719275855325605888/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/UdqQ0-whHu28YK7e.mp4?tag=12
To a Zionist, this is the completion of an ethnic war begun with the Nakba.
The far right Israeli government does not see innocent civilians as other than collateral damage in this displacement.
That is why the IDF have issued further warnings about their intention to bomb al-Quds hospital, knowing full well that it cannot be evacuated, and that frightened civilians have sought sanctuary there.
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Albie
You copied and pasted something that said "the Ministry of Intelligence are advisory and not binding on the executive".
And then you announced that it proved that Israeli policy was exactly what that document said.
Do you see the point I'm making?
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When quoting death toll in Gaza you might want to take a bit of salt with it as it seems miracles happen
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1719240719309640167
There have been 64 UN Aid workers killed in Gaza since 7th October. Which is about a quarter of ALL UN Aid workers killed in the field since the founding of the UN in 1948.
They UN are very sure of that stat - Interview on Radio 4 this morning.
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Ethnic cleansing it has been from year dot by Israel, mirroring many sick murdering, thieving regimes of the past, including the USA.
Israel cutting a deal with Egypt to make a home for Palestinians is the carrot, murdering them, imprisoning them, making them 2nd class citizens, destroying their homes, destroying all amenities, etc etc is the stick. This is ethnic cleansing, an extreme human rights violation, a central tenet of Zionism.
Rubbish.
Many different ethnicities and religions have lived quite happily side-by-side in Israel for centuries. And since 1948.
The United Arab List have 5 current Knesset members.
The ethnic cleansing began after the assination of Rabin in 1995 and the election of a series of far-right Zionist governments.
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Once again, I'm not supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. There are war crimes going on, and Netanyahu and his far right headcase supporters should be held accountable for them.
But this is where the aggressive defence that even moderate Israelis show, comes from.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1718699241013436811
That was last night. In Russia. Hundreds of people rampaging through an airport trying to hunt down Jews who had just landed on a flight from Tel Aviv.
Let's call that what it is.
It's a Pogrom. The sort of thing that Jews across Europe faced on a regular basis for centuries, before Hitler took it to an industrial scale.
That info appears to have been pumped up by Ukraine channels. No surprise eh?
If your default opinion on everything is just to be an anti-west contrarian, then you aren’t thinking for yourself.
Such consistent paranoid and conspiratorial thought patterns aren’t healthy.
Are you paid by the BBC?
The BBC who instantly believed Hamas’ 500 dead by Israeli air strikes claims and reported on it?
I had the same cynical anti-establishment views on everything like you when I was an 18 year old uni student. Then I grew up.
Oh dear.
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BST,
Yes, I understand what you are saying, and it is clearly irrelevant.
You are disregarding what key figures in Israel have been saying for some time.
The Israeli administration under Netanyahu have been open about their intentions, they see war crimes as a method of removing Hamas by displacement of the Palestinian civilian population.
Owen Jones gives a summary of their public statements;
https://youtu.be/vt20GUg7bUo
They are confident that western powers will support them in using genocide to delete Palestine from the map of the middle east.
The only brake on their plan is pushback from Egypt, who see no advantage in creating a tented enclave in the Sinai desert.
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Ethnic cleansing it has been from year dot by Israel, mirroring many sick murdering, thieving regimes of the past, including the USA.
Israel cutting a deal with Egypt to make a home for Palestinians is the carrot, murdering them, imprisoning them, making them 2nd class citizens, destroying their homes, destroying all amenities, etc etc is the stick. This is ethnic cleansing, an extreme human rights violation, a central tenet of Zionism.
Rubbish.
Many different ethnicities and religions have lived quite happily side-by-side in Israel for centuries. And since 1948.
The United Arab List have 5 current Knesset members.
The ethnic cleansing began after the assination of Rabin in 1995 and the election of a series of far-right Zionist governments.
Israel hasn't existed for centuries.
When Israel - the Jewish state - came into being, it displaced Arabs, it murdered them, and it has continued expanding and displacing. Gaza will be the next phase.
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BST,
Yes, I understand what you are saying, and it is clearly irrelevant.
You are disregarding what key figures in Israel have been saying for some time.
The Israeli administration under Netanyahu have been open about their intentions, they see war crimes as a method of removing Hamas by displacement of the Palestinian civilian population.
Owen Jones gives a summary of their public statements;
https://youtu.be/vt20GUg7bUo
They are confident that western powers will support them in using genocide to delete Palestine from the map of the middle east.
The only brake on their plan is pushback from Egypt, who see no advantage in creating a tented enclave in the Sinai desert.
Then what has that Wikileaks (read: FSB) leak go to do with your case?
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When quoting death toll in Gaza you might want to take a bit of salt with it as it seems miracles happen
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1719240719309640167
There have been 64 UN Aid workers killed in Gaza since 7th October. Which is about a quarter of ALL UN Aid workers killed in the field since the founding of the UN in 1948.
They UN are very sure of that stat - Interview on Radio 4 this morning.
I’m sure the UN do get their numbers right, I’ve never said they don’t, but the numbers coming out of the Gaza Ministry of Health really do need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Remember the 500-800 killed in the self inflicted hospital attack that turned out to approx 50. And as you see in that video miracles happen
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Here is an interesting point of view
https://x.com/simonmontefiore/status/1719377408162152587?s=61
Hamas commented and stated”The Tunnels are for our People (Hamas) The Palestinian population is the responsibility of the United Nations!”
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The UK has no influence over Israel , it's Israel that has the influence over the UK .
Once you begin to look at this in those terms the positions taken by Sunak and Starmer and others become clearer .
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The UK has no influence over Israel , it's Israel that has the influence over the UK .
Once you begin to look at this in those terms the positions taken by Sunak and Starmer and others become clearer .
Here it comes. The anti-Semitic trope of the ages.
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The UK has no influence over Israel , it's Israel that has the influence over the UK .
Once you begin to look at this in those terms the positions taken by Sunak and Starmer and others become clearer .
This is backwards. Israel is a useful tool for the US and UK's interests in the middle east, so we supply it with arms and training and let it get away with murder - literally.
Sunak has to appease his lunatic far right party of psychopaths, and Starmer is out to prove he's the opposite of Corbyn in every way. The problem with defining yourself solely against what the jam grandad does is, you sometimes end up supporting the bombing of refugee camps and other war crimes.
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I can’t be the only one who doesn’t really know what to think about this? My thoughts are very contradictory. On the one hand I support Israel and it’s absolute right to attack Hammas with all its force. With this in mind I agree that a ceasefire will just give Hamas the opportunity to continue its attacks in the future.
On the other hand, I think that Israel has, and continues, to treat the Palestinians like shit. I see the images from Gaza and it absolutely breaks my heart. These poor people are living through absolute hell.
As a consequence it’s impossible for me to ‘pick a side’ in this conflict. It’s all blame, blame and counter blame. I do get the feeling though that each side, and their allies, actually want this war to take place.
What I do know is that there’s absolutely decades worth of anger and hatred about to be let loose by both sides who are determined to destroy each other and as with all wars, it’s the innocents that will suffer.
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Ethnic cleansing it has been from year dot by Israel, mirroring many sick murdering, thieving regimes of the past, including the USA.
Israel cutting a deal with Egypt to make a home for Palestinians is the carrot, murdering them, imprisoning them, making them 2nd class citizens, destroying their homes, destroying all amenities, etc etc is the stick. This is ethnic cleansing, an extreme human rights violation, a central tenet of Zionism.
Rubbish.
Many different ethnicities and religions have lived quite happily side-by-side in Israel for centuries. And since 1948.
The United Arab List have 5 current Knesset members.
The ethnic cleansing began after the assination of Rabin in 1995 and the election of a series of far-right Zionist governments.
Israel hasn't existed for centuries.
When Israel - the Jewish state - came into being, it displaced Arabs, it murdered them, and it has continued expanding and displacing. Gaza will be the next phase.
You wrote 'year dot'.
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I can’t be the only one who doesn’t really know what to think about this? My thoughts are very contradictory. On the one hand I support Israel and it’s absolute right to attack Hammas with all its force. With this in mind I agree that a ceasefire will just give Hamas the opportunity to continue its attacks in the future.
On the other hand, I think that Israel has, and continues, to treat the Palestinians like shit. I see the images from Gaza and it absolutely breaks my heart. These poor people are living through absolute hell.
As a consequence it’s impossible for me to ‘pick a side’ in this conflict. It’s all blame, blame and counter blame. I do get the feeling though that each side, and their allies, actually want this war to take place.
What I do know is that there’s absolutely decades worth of anger and hatred about to be let loose by both sides who are determined to destroy each other and as with all wars, it’s the innocents that will suffer.
This doesn't surprise me HA, in another life the founder of the Sydney Peace Foundation and Emeritus prof at Centre for Peace and Conflict studies was a client and when he visited me he'd just want to sit, chat and wind down, the problems in middle east used to wear him out.
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I can’t be the only one who doesn’t really know what to think about this? My thoughts are very contradictory. On the one hand I support Israel and it’s absolute right to attack Hammas with all its force. With this in mind I agree that a ceasefire will just give Hamas the opportunity to continue its attacks in the future.
On the other hand, I think that Israel has, and continues, to treat the Palestinians like shit. I see the images from Gaza and it absolutely breaks my heart. These poor people are living through absolute hell.
As a consequence it’s impossible for me to ‘pick a side’ in this conflict. It’s all blame, blame and counter blame. I do get the feeling though that each side, and their allies, actually want this war to take place.
What I do know is that there’s absolutely decades worth of anger and hatred about to be let loose by both sides who are determined to destroy each other and as with all wars, it’s the innocents that will suffer.
HA, you are not alone with those thoughts.
That is more or less where I am with the situation.
Both sides can share the blame for what is going on.
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These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
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No Glosterred, the ceasefire people are asking for is with Palestine, specifically the civilian populations of Gaza and the West Bank.
The Israeli position is that they are targeting Hamas, but it is very clear that they are using that excuse to bomb civilian facilities. The fatality index alone shows that the burden is borne by innocent civilians, particularly children.
These are not acts of legitimate defence, they are acts of attack to make life in Gaza intolerable.
If they were defensive they would be focussed on combatants, not the civilian infrastructure and population.
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Serious question Albie.
When an opposing military force is intimately embedded in civilian infrastructure, how do you attack them without hitting the civilian infrastructure?
And if you do, are you breaking the rules of war, or are they?
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It is very simple.
Reckless bombing of civilians is a war crime, and you are breaking the rules set out in the Geneva convention.
It is forbidden to impose disproportionate casualties on civilian populations in pursuit of war aims or reprisals.
Israel is a state actor, Hamas is a small subset of a non state player.
Do not compare apples with oranges, look for parity in consideration.
There is no legal basis for the actions of Israel, currently and in the past, and none for the Hamas action of October 7.
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Have any of the numbers of fatalaties, especially in children, been verified by any Independant sources?
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Raven,
Well, I suppose the UN are best considered independent, and they seem to think the figures are sound.
Newsnight interview with Francesca Albanese, UN Rapporteur. ( with apologies for the silly Kirsty Wark );
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719706563584065536/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/S7GXn46U1Xn_G4tR.mp4?tag=12
part 2;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719703964608823296/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/TC95TKZBC6qaJ8Ti.mp4?tag=12
The United Nations have condemned the actions of Israel as genocide:
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF92JhsBWYAEyUQF.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
Just under 50% of the Gaza population are children and adolescents, so bombing the civilian infrastructure will knowingly impact these groups.
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No Glosterred, the ceasefire people are asking for is with Palestine, specifically the civilian populations of Gaza and the West Bank.
The Israeli position is that they are targeting Hamas, but it is very clear that they are using that excuse to bomb civilian facilities. The fatality index alone shows that the burden is borne by innocent civilians, particularly children.
These are not acts of legitimate defence, they are acts of attack to make life in Gaza intolerable.
If they were defensive they would be focussed on combatants, not the civilian infrastructure and population.
Isreal is not fighting the Palastinian people they are fighting Hamas so the ceasefire some people are asking for is with Hamas.
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It’s interesting that two religions, Judaism and Islam, that share some ideals, yet dispute on others have warred with each other for hundreds of years.
There are more references to Moses in the Quran than any other person.
Both religions view him as a prophet.
The apparent atrocities both Israel and Hamas continue to dish out to each other over the years seems to know no bounds.
I fully expect to see Israel leave no stone unturned in Gaza until they believe every last trace of Hamas have gone. A bit like the ethnic cleansing we witnessed in Bosnia not too long ago. And even then what is left of Gaza will be a living hell for anyone that remains.
But you cannot eradicate an ideology. It will never happen. While ever there is Judaism and Islam on this earth, these conflicts will continue in some way shape or form.
All seems very quiet on the axis of resistance for the time being. But it won’t stay like that if Iran perceive there to be Cleansing of Muslim communities on a grand scale on their doorstep.
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The Christian faith is the other Abrahamic religion, the Old Testament is revered to certain extents by all 3.
Sadly the Gaza Christians number less than 2,000 wheras there are 180,000 in The West Bank,IT beggars The question as to eho is more tolerant of The Palestinian Christians, The Iraelis or whoever puls The strings in Gaza.
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Short video for those of you who think that 'all' Jewish people support the Israeli government and' hate' Islam & Muslims.
The people the police are attacking (in an Orthodox area of Jerusalem) are calling for peace negotiations with the Palestinians
https://twitter.com/TorahJudaism/status/1719741630763159672
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It is very simple.
Reckless bombing of civilians is a war crime, and you are breaking the rules set out in the Geneva convention.
It is forbidden to impose disproportionate casualties on civilian populations in pursuit of war aims or reprisals.
Israel is a state actor, Hamas is a small subset of a non state player.
Do not compare apples with oranges, look for parity in consideration.
There is no legal basis for the actions of Israel, currently and in the past, and none for the Hamas action of October 7.
With respect Albie, you didn't pay me the respect of answering my question.
I'll pose it again.
If a military force embeds itself in civilian infrastructure and starts an armed conflict, what is the other side supposed to do?
Just answer that question please.
You say Israel should confine itself to attacking Hamas. How exactly is it supposed to do that?
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I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
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When you do some digging in to the killing of a Hamas leader, the initial report released by Hamas was that Isreal had killed 400, when it actually turned out they killed 50 and those 50 were all fighting age males that were in the same bunker as the Hamas leader.
One way of stopping civilians from getting killed is to not put your military infrastructure in or under refugee camps.
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The problem with this conflict is that both sides have used civilians to push protect and advance their own cause, if not in the present in the past and will not bring a lasting peace to the area.
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I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.
The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.
Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?
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When you do some digging in to the killing of a Hamas leader, the initial report released by Hamas was that Isreal had killed 400, when it actually turned out they killed 50 and those 50 were all fighting age males that were in the same bunker as the Hamas leader.
One way of stopping civilians from getting killed is to not put your military infrastructure in or under refugee camps.
This.
This is absolutely a war crime. It's attempting to use civilians as human shields.
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A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
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A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
Your logic is a bit off sprot, vis a vis: don't worry I only punched you in the nose but I could have kicked you in the nuts and run over you, so that makes this ok.
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I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.
The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.
Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?
BST insinuating that Hamas has a lot of Himmlers, and that they have killed or will kill several million civilians. Or maybe he could be clearer with his points and not make wild rhetorically exaggerated, misleading similies.
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I'm afraid that is an entirely tendentious post BRR.
The question Billy asked is both lucid and logical. From the manner and tone of your response to the question I'm sad to say that agenda appears to have wholly overridden sense.
Regards
BobG
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https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1719410392445644949?s=46
Starmer speaking well on this issue. Sounds like a leader.
As long as Hamas hold power a successful Palestinian state and the alleviation of the suffering of its people is not possible. And Jewish people living in the Middle East would continue to be terrorised.
There was a ceasefire that Hamas agreed to between May 20 2021 and October 6th 2023. If you try to broker peace with “our friends from Hamas” they will use you as a useful idiot and just start planning their next attack.
I find it strange that the far-left try to justify the actions and buy the narrative proposed to them by far-right Islamic fascists. Then try to justify genocidal slogans such as “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. Are they just predisposed to sticking up for the perceived underdog?
That map showing Palestine land loss is misleading, as Palestine has never been a country. Just a name given to an area of land.
Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong.
Both sides need to back a 2 state solution. 1948 borders is the ideal situation. Does saying so make me an “evil Zionist”? No because if for example you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed.
I’m open to be pointed out by level headed posters if I’m wrong anywhere here.
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I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
It seems from this its ok for the 'Freedom Fighters' to commit war crimes.
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Raven,
Well, I suppose the UN are best considered independent, and they seem to think the figures are sound.
Newsnight interview with Francesca Albanese, UN Rapporteur. ( with apologies for the silly Kirsty Wark );
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719706563584065536/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/S7GXn46U1Xn_G4tR.mp4?tag=12
part 2;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719703964608823296/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/TC95TKZBC6qaJ8Ti.mp4?tag=12
The United Nations have condemned the actions of Israel as genocide:
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF92JhsBWYAEyUQF.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
Just under 50% of the Gaza population are children and adolescents, so bombing the civilian infrastructure will knowingly impact these groups.
Thanks for the reply Albie you are the only one, the answer then is no
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https://x.com/memrireports/status/1719662664090075199?s=46
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I'm afraid that is an entirely tendentious post BRR.
The question Billy asked is both lucid and logical. From the manner and tone of your response to the question I'm sad to say that agenda appears to have wholly overridden sense.
Regards
BobG
The character of his point may or may not hold water, the scales, proportions are what are wildly rhetorical and misleading.
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Raven,
The number of children killed in Gaza is over 3500, a figure given by the UN and international humanitarian agencies...so the answer is yes.
Pies,
No, that is not true, and I pointed out in post 497 that the Hamas actions were a war crime.
ncRover,
All of your post 514 is misleading, except where you say:
"Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong"...this is true.
Israel is opposed to a 2 state solution, and has been for many years.
Your claim that "you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed"...err, you seem to be unaware of the influx of settlers from Israel across the Palestinian territories which has been going on for years.
No-one is justifying the actions of Hamas at all, they are gross.
The circumstances which lead to Palestinian resistance will continue, even if certain individuals are removed.
The root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land, and settler colonialism.
-
BST,
The reference to Himmler is very disturbing and strange. The idea that a bomb or missile can be justified by reference to the off chance of hitting one specific person in a crowd is both unlawful and unethical. Surely that applies to both parties in any conflict.
In WW2, the Nazi forces occupied France, and were opposed by the French resistance.
Are you saying that those under hostile invasion cannot resist to protect their own country?
The occupying force in Palestine is Israel, who have imposed severe sanctions on the local population. It is entirely right that the international community puts pressure on Israel to cease, but in this case, western governments have turned a blind eye.
So if you want Palestinian responses to be more moderate, perhaps make sure that Israel withdraws from occupation to its own borders might be a start.
That includes removing Israeli settlers back to their own land.
Once again the UN giving a view on the Israeli actions:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1720015937154289664/pu/vid/avc1/720x720/689uI61_H52WnF6N.mp4?tag=12
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As a matter of interest Albie where are the UN getting their casualty figures from?
-
Here you go, glosterred;
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Verified by external sources, and recognised as the best data source by humanitarian organisations.
-
Here you go, glosterred;
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Verified by external sources, and recognised as the best data source by humanitarian organisations.
Have you read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page which says that the figures are provided by the Ministry of Health (Hamas) and Israel and are not yet independently verified?
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-26
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The verification is an ongoing process, I presume.
With the figures changing constantly, best to see the most recent as subject to change, but within an uncertainty bound.
This is the most reliable dataset to hand, and is recognised as such.
-
I have got to say any numbers coming out of the Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) have to be taken with a large pinch of salt after 500-800 killed in a self inflicted rocket attack that turned out to be approx 50 and 400 in the killing of a Hamas leader which also turned out to be 50 and those where probably Hamas terrorists. So until fully verified I ain’t believing those figures
-
A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
They also have nuclear bombs & missiles.
So they have only killed a few thousand women & children and injured tens of thousands more - how lucky they are when they could have killed hundreds of thousands and injured millions all across the Near East.
-
As a matter of interest Albie where are the UN getting their casualty figures from?
UN staff in Gaza. 62 of whom have been killed so far. Definitely.
Where are the IDF getting their figures from?
-
I have got to say any numbers coming out of the Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) have to be taken with a large pinch of salt after 500-800 killed in a self inflicted rocket attack that turned out to be approx 50 and 400 in the killing of a Hamas leader which also turned out to be 50 and those where probably Hamas terrorists. So until fully verified I ain’t believing those figures
No problem - I dont believe your figures seeing as you are several thousand miles away.
-
Rockets fired into Israel from Lebanon tonight
-
BST,
The reference to Himmler is very disturbing and strange. The idea that a bomb or missile can be justified by reference to the off chance of hitting one specific person in a crowd is both unlawful and unethical. Surely that applies to both parties in any conflict.
In WW2, the Nazi forces occupied France, and were opposed by the French resistance.
Are you saying that those under hostile invasion cannot resist to protect their own country?
The occupying force in Palestine is Israel, who have imposed severe sanctions on the local population. It is entirely right that the international community puts pressure on Israel to cease, but in this case, western governments have turned a blind eye.
So if you want Palestinian responses to be more moderate, perhaps make sure that Israel withdraws from occupation to its own borders might be a start.
That includes removing Israeli settlers back to their own land.
Once again the UN giving a view on the Israeli actions:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1720015937154289664/pu/vid/avc1/720x720/689uI61_H52WnF6N.mp4?tag=12
Albie.
You're rambling away from the point as you tend to do, but I'll follow you. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the French Resistance?
-
A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
Your logic is a bit off sprot, vis a vis: don't worry I only punched you in the nose but I could have kicked you in the nuts and run over you, so that makes this ok.
Congratulations you got a like from Bristol red rover!
-
I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.
The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.
Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?
Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.
The answer to your question is yes, by the way.
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Rockets fired into Israel from Lebanon tonight
Not good.
-
Raven,
The number of children killed in Gaza is over 3500, a figure given by the UN and international humanitarian agencies...so the answer is yes.
Pies,
No, that is not true, and I pointed out in post 497 that the Hamas actions were a war crime.
ncRover,
All of your post 514 is misleading, except where you say:
"Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong"...this is true.
Israel is opposed to a 2 state solution, and has been for many years.
Your claim that "you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed"...err, you seem to be unaware of the influx of settlers from Israel across the Palestinian territories which has been going on for years.
No-one is justifying the actions of Hamas at all, they are gross.
The circumstances which lead to Palestinian resistance will continue, even if certain individuals are removed.
The root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land, and settler colonialism.
I was talking about Gaza, Albie.
How many Jews live in Hamas-led independent since 2005 Gaza?
When you say “root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land” what land do you mean? From the river to the sea?
Where was I misleading on Hamas not wanting peace? Did you see the comments made by Gahzi Hamad on Lebanese TV?
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land, we must remove that country. We are not ashamed to say that, with full force.”
“The Al-Asqa flood is just the first time. There will be a second, a third, a fourth”
“Will we have to pay a price? Yes. And we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”
“The occupation must come to an end”
Reporter: “of the Gaza Strip?”
“No, I am talking about all of the Palestinian lands”
Reporter: “does that mean the annihilation of Israel?”
“Yes, of course”.
-
I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.
The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.
Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?
Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.
The answer to your question is yes, by the way.
I'm very surprised at you on both those comments.
You are legally wrong about the second. It would pass ANY assessment of "proportionality".
As for the first comment, that's just childish silliness.
-
Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:
North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.
Blowing up everything is amazing.
When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.
https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824
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Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:
North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.
Blowing up everything is amazing.
When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.
https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824
Disgusting comments. He should be arraigned by the Hague International Court.
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Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:
North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.
Blowing up everything is amazing.
When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.
https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824
Also bad.
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I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.
Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.
So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.
It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.
I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.
The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.
Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?
Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.
The answer to your question is yes, by the way.
I'm very surprised at you on both those comments.
You are legally wrong about the second. It would pass ANY assessment of "proportionality".
As for the first comment, that's just childish silliness.
I am equally surprised to see you equivocating over the bombing of a refugee camp.
Childish and silly, perhaps. But unserious WWII analogies invite that.
Gaza is an open air prison. So of course Hamas are embedding themselves among civilians. The answer to that problem cannot be the kind of indiscriminate savagery we see from Russia.
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MM
I'm establishing a legal principle.
I asked Albie how Israel was supposed to go after the people who organised the 7 October attack and who would undoubtedly commit genocide given the chance, when those people use innocent civilians as human shields.
It's not a black and white issue and I despair at those who see it that way.
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NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
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A good piece on the history of peace talks.
https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/israel-palestine-2-state-solution
Another brilliant piece on the West Bank. Where Israel needs to stop settler expansion and hold them accountable for crimes.
https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/the-problem-of-west-bank-settlements
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NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
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MM
I'm establishing a legal principle.
I asked Albie how Israel was supposed to go after the people who organised the 7 October attack and who would undoubtedly commit genocide given the chance, when those people use innocent civilians as human shields.
It's not a black and white issue and I despair at those who see it that way.
NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
Israel has been the homeland of the Jews since Moses was a lad, the Palestinians are descended from nomads who in the main converted to Islam, circa 700 AD.
The Romans called it Judea, there’s a big hint there about who was there before the Palestinians!
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MM
I'm establishing a legal principle.
I asked Albie how Israel was supposed to go after the people who organised the 7 October attack and who would undoubtedly commit genocide given the chance, when those people use innocent civilians as human shields.
It's not a black and white issue and I despair at those who see it that way.
NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
Israel has been the homeland of the Jews since Moses was a lad, the Palestinians are descended from nomads who in the main converted to Islam, circa 700 AD.
The Romans called it Judea, there’s a big hint there about who was there before the Palestinians!
Christ up above.
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Reports of a possible ceasefire/pause to coincide with Blinken's visit to area. Blinken arrives tomorrow:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-november-02-2023/
https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1720181092009832638
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These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
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Glos, it'll be hard going for them to dominate the world with the Russians, Chinese, Yanks, and Klingons all trying to do the same. That doesn't mean its safe to go outside tho! :ohmy:
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These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
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NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
Come on Bristol. If you’re so outspoken about Israel you must have some idea of the alternative that would rule that land?
Israel is surrounded by countries that have attacked it in the past and are hostile to its existence.
You think 7 million stateless Jews would face no danger after the events we witnessed on Oct 7th?
6 million Jews were murdered in the Nazi Holocaust. Israel was founded so that they had a safe haven free from persecution. Do you not think they need this?
-
These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
But it is already have you not been watching what is going on? Hamas a Muslim terrorist group want to remove the Jewish state of Israel from the face of the map and remove all Jews from the region. It cannot be anything other than a religious war.
So stop trying to not make it a religious war when it blatantly is
-
These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
85% of Palestinians in the West Bank are Muslim
99% of Palestinians in Gaza are Muslim.
This has everything to do with Religion.
-
These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
While the number of Christians in Gaza dwindled to a little over a thousand in 2022, with roughly 50,000 more in the West Bank and Jerusalem, the 1922 census of the British Mandate of Palestine reported over 73,000 in this region where Christians have lived ever since Christianity began.
The above lifter from Wikipedia, yes it is about Muslims, extremists that have murdered Christians and driven most of them out of Gaza, just look at the disparity between The Israeli Controlled West Bank and the Muslim extremist dominated Gaza Strip, it speaks volumes!
-
These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
While the number of Christians in Gaza dwindled to a little over a thousand in 2022, with roughly 50,000 more in the West Bank and Jerusalem, the 1922 census of the British Mandate of Palestine reported over 73,000 in this region where Christians have lived ever since Christianity began.
The above lifter from Wikipedia, yes it is about Muslims, extremists that have murdered Christians and driven most of them out of Gaza, just look at the disparity between The Israeli Controlled West Bank and the Muslim extremist dominated Gaza Strip, it speaks volumes!
20% of the Israeli population is Arab
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Anyone for Crusades II.
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Seeing it as a religious war is playing into the hands of the Zionists like rats following the Piper. This is about a land grab by Zionists. It's therefore not religious.
Also, Jews, Christians and Arabs lived together fairly peacefully before the land grab.
And Zionism was a mainly Christian creation, the creation of the state of Israel having little to do with the haulocost. The refugees were used to facilitate the land grab. A wholy hipocritical move by the controllers, an abuse of people who needed a safe space. Plenty of far far safer spaces than Israel in the world post ww2
-
NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
Come on Bristol. If you’re so outspoken about Israel you must have some idea of the alternative that would rule that land?
Israel is surrounded by countries that have attacked it in the past and are hostile to its existence.
You think 7 million stateless Jews would face no danger after the events we witnessed on Oct 7th?
6 million Jews were murdered in the Nazi Holocaust. Israel was founded so that they had a safe haven free from persecution. Do you not think they need this?
Wise up. No one's saying there would be stateless Jews, just no Israel in the apartheid mode it is right now.
Maybe you approve of that apartheid? Like Israel did, you may also have approved of apartheid South Africa? Or maybe you have an idea to move forwards - properly forwards?
-
These are the people who some on here want Israel to have a ceasefire with. They don’t want a ceasefire the want to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel.
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
And when they’ve done that they will be coming for the rest of the world
https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1718605978357088270
When I said that after Israel they would come after the west, we’ll it seems that they are after Spain as well and after Spain every non Muslim country until Islam is the only religion allowed
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720227008989298706
How many times do I have to repeat that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Stop making this a religious conflict.
But it is already have you not been watching what is going on? Hamas a Muslim terrorist group want to remove the Jewish state of Israel from the face of the map and remove all Jews from the region. It cannot be anything other than a religious war.
So stop trying to not make it a religious war when it blatantly is
Hamas do represent all Palestinians. And the actions of the far-right Netanyahu government and the fascist West Bank settlers do not represent all Israelis.
But it's not hard to see your motivations on asserting why they do.
And there are a large percentage of Jewish people in Isreal who think there should be
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To date 36 Journalists have been killed since the attacks on Gaza begun.
Didn't someone ask earlier which independent sources were reporting from Gaza?
Make it too dangerous to report - and then you can claim there are no independent sources reporting.
https://twitter.com/dianabuttu/status/1720372785908719776
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Where do Hamas fall on the political spectrum Wilts - next to the Lib Dems?
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Have I missed the post regarding Israel bombing ambulances? I hear this morning they have admitted it.
-
To date 36 Journalists have been killed since the attacks on Gaza begun.
Didn't someone ask earlier which independent sources were reporting from Gaza?
Make it too dangerous to report - and then you can claim there are no independent sources reporting.
https://twitter.com/dianabuttu/status/1720372785908719776
Hamas tried to level up their kill score of Journalists last night by firing directly into a group of several hundred journalists who I had gathered at Sderot luckily although several rockets landed amongst them no one was injured!
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Have I missed the post regarding Israel bombing ambulances? I hear this morning they have admitted it.
This is an example of why I get pissed off with the "both sides are bad/it's not black and white" position. If you make out it's a tit for tat, both sides are equal situation, it becomes much easier to shrug off atrocities like bombing ambulances, refugee camps, hospitals, churches, and so on. Turns out you can justify anything if you shrug your shoulders and say you don't believe in taking sides.
This isn't a conflict between equals. Yes, both sides commit atrocities regularly - but one side does so more regularly. Yes, both sides would gladly wipe the other one off the map - but only one side has the capacity to do it. Both sides are suffering - but one side is suffering more. And only one side is supplied with the most advanced weaponry in the world, and carte blanche from the most powerful nations on earth to use it. The distinction matters.
Both sides share some of the blame, going back centuries - but they are not equal.
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Have I missed the post regarding Israel bombing ambulances? I hear this morning they have admitted it.
This is an example of why I get pissed off with the "both sides are bad/it's not black and white" position. If you make out it's a tit for tat, both sides are equal situation, it becomes much easier to shrug off atrocities like bombing ambulances, refugee camps, hospitals, churches, and so on. Turns out you can justify anything if you shrug your shoulders and say you don't believe in taking sides.
This isn't a conflict between equals. Yes, both sides commit atrocities regularly - but one side does so more regularly. Yes, both sides would gladly wipe the other one off the map - but only one side has the capacity to do it. Both sides are suffering - but one side is suffering more. And only one side is supplied with the most advanced weaponry in the world, and carte blanche from the most powerful nations on earth to use it. The distinction matters.
Both sides share some of the blame, going back centuries - but they are not equal.
You are right so Why did they poke the bear, go down the wildlife park and climb into a Polar bear enclosure and try poking one with a stick, that’s the Mentality of Hamas retards
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MM
I've been asking for weeks. How is Israel supposed to conduct this phase of the war (which Hamas initiated) without civilian casualties when Hamas uses de FActo human shields?
What is Israel supposed to do? Shrug their shoulders at 1700 people being massacred when the perpetrators then immerse themselves in the civilian infrastructure?
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BST. Some civilian casualties are to be expected. The scale and indiscriminate nature of the civilian casualties is the problem. Are you really arguing there's a military necessity to bomb tens of thousands of civilians? Was it necessary when Russia was doing it, too? Ukrainian civilians were armed with drones and Molotovs, after all. That doesn't justify Russian actions in Mariupol.
How many dead Palestinian kids does it take before a response stops being proportional? 5000? 10,000? We're on around 3,000 now - unusually high relative to any conflict in human history, of this scale and after this short length of time - and that doesn't seem to be enough.
I'm also interested in your choice of language. This is a separate point, and not meant to accuse you of anything nefarious, but it does reveal some unconscious bias likely inherited from the media. Palestinians are just casualties. Israelis get massacred.
Palestinians die. Israelis are killed. Just another way in which the two sides of this conflict are unequal.
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MM
Do you have any criticism for Hamas deliberately operating in civilian areas and using civilians as shields.
I'll say again. Hamas started this fighting. What do you expect Israel to do to fight against them? All I've heard is what Israel shouldn't do. But if you have strident opinions on that, presumably you have opinions on what they SHOULD do to neutralise those who launched this violence?
As for the choice of language, there IS a quantitative difference between civilians who are beheaded, kidnapped or raped as a specific aim of an action, and those who are killed as a result of fighting aimed at overcoming a military adversary. That's not my opinion. It is international law.
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage"
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
; perspective is nonsense.
I think I have mentioned this at least twice before, Hamas lost my vote when they beheaded Israeli Babies, that takes some doing, makes them even worse than the Fascist groups in the Second World War.
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Today the broadcasts coming from that Gaza Hospital are scenes full of military age men in Civvies! Where are the women and children?
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage&quot
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
; perspective is nonsense.
I think I have mentioned this at least twice before, Hamas lost my vote when they beheaded Israeli Babies, that takes some doing, makes them even worse than the Fascist groups in the Second World War.
I thought that baby beheading story had been debunked?
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage&quot
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
; perspective is nonsense.
I think I have mentioned this at least twice before, Hamas lost my vote when they beheaded Israeli Babies, that takes some doing, makes them even worse than the Fascist groups in the Second World War.
Hamas doesn't equal Palestinians. How much are you disturbed by Israel murdering hundreds of Palestinian babies? Or is it just the means of murder that troubles you. Crushed, ripped apart, suffocated, arteries slashed, bullet in the head etc is fine, just no beheading... unless via a huge bomb. Fair summary of your mental process?
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The question is who has or is doing the most damage to Israel , the Israeli right wing government or Hamas ? .
Without international support Israel is fecked and that shows signs that it could dwindle as the Palestinian civilian body count grows , it's at 9k since October 7th .
I've read this evening that one of the more right wing Israeli newspapers are contemplating that this conflict may not be won , it won't be lost but it may not be won either .
There's also the very significant threat that Jewish people living in Europe or elsewhere are going to be attacked .
There is the very likely threat that once again terror attacks could once again take place here in the UK or any other country who continues to support Israel .
The Two State solution has to come in to play but I fear that can only happen when the Palestinians rid themselves of Hamas and we see a more centrist Israeli government .
I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for the above to happen .
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This is an excellent piece about where the potential ray of hope is for the future.
Tyke. It's showing a path to exactly the solution you are suggesting.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/03/war-israel-hamas-conflict-peace-extremists
tl:dr
0) The real battle isn't between Israelis and Palestinians. It between those who want to destroy the other side (Hamas and the Israeli far right) with those who want a 2 state solution (Fatah in the West Bank and Israeli moderates).
1) Hamas's leader has this week reinforced the case for Israel eliminating them by saying that they will repeat the October 7th attacks over and over again.
2) Netanyahu is a political dead man walking. He's combined incompetence with utter brutality that is turning many Israelis against him. Hopefully he will be replaced by a moderate Israeli Govt.
3) When Hamas is destroyed, there will be a need for Arab states to support an alternative Gaza Govt. But they all want a 2 state solution.
4) This is a horrific situation with innocents on both sides suffering. But there's a chink of light suggesting that it might be the beginning of the end for the extremists on both sides.
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A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
They also have nuclear bombs & missiles.
So they have only killed a few thousand women & children and injured tens of thousands more - how lucky they are when they could have killed hundreds of thousands and injured millions all across the Near East.
Scrap that. Dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is an option say's Israeli Minister.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/
The Israeli right, and their supporters on here, wont be happy until they have started WWIII.
Which is what Hamas want them to do.
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Have I missed the post regarding Israel bombing ambulances? I hear this morning they have admitted it.
This is an example of why I get pissed off with the "both sides are bad/it's not black and white" position. If you make out it's a tit for tat, both sides are equal situation, it becomes much easier to shrug off atrocities like bombing ambulances, refugee camps, hospitals, churches, and so on. Turns out you can justify anything if you shrug your shoulders and say you don't believe in taking sides.
This isn't a conflict between equals. Yes, both sides commit atrocities regularly - but one side does so more regularly. Yes, both sides would gladly wipe the other one off the map - but only one side has the capacity to do it. Both sides are suffering - but one side is suffering more. And only one side is supplied with the most advanced weaponry in the world, and carte blanche from the most powerful nations on earth to use it. The distinction matters.
Both sides share some of the blame, going back centuries - but they are not equal.
Care to explain the justification of bombing ambulances if it so pisses you off?
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage&quot
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
; perspective is nonsense.
I think I have mentioned this at least twice before, Hamas lost my vote when they beheaded Israeli Babies, that takes some doing, makes them even worse than the Fascist groups in the Second World War.
Hamas doesn't equal Palestinians. How much are you disturbed by Israel murdering hundreds of Palestinian babies? Or is it just the means of murder that troubles you. Crushed, ripped apart, suffocated, arteries slashed, bullet in the head etc is fine, just no beheading... unless via a huge bomb. Fair summary of your mental process?
I don’t usually bother to read your posts BRR , but you have answered my post and YOU !!! Have the temerity to suggest I have mental issues, I suggest you read some of your own posts,do some self reflecting and then get a ‘Check up from the neck up!’
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By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage&quot
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
Israel initiated it by their choice of being an apartheid state and in the process murdering and thieving and imprisoning Palestinians. That "this stage" perspective is nonsense.
; perspective is nonsense.
I think I have mentioned this at least twice before, Hamas lost my vote when they beheaded Israeli Babies, that takes some doing, makes them even worse than the Fascist groups in the Second World War.
I thought that baby beheading story had been debunked?
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine
There are several articles online this is CNN
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indicated that people had been beheaded by Hamas in an appearance beside Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Thursday, but did not specify if they were children.
His office later released what it described as “horrifying photos of babies murdered and burned by the Hamas monsters.”
The three photos showed two babies whose bodies had been burned beyond recognition and a third infant’s bloodstained body.
The post said that Netanyahu showed Blinken the photos, as well as others.
The explosive allegations that children had been decapitated at the kibbutz of Kfar Aza emerged Tuesday in Israeli media. Israel Defense Forces later described the scene as a “massacre” in a statement to CNN. Women, children toddlers and the elderly were “brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action,” the IDF said.
There is also one by Skropes which states at least one baby has been identified as beheaded but the
Forensic examiners can’t confirm how it happened and it could be from an RPG rocket.
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Spotty - "mental process" means the process of your mind. If you did read what I said, you'd know that. I was asking if the logic I outlined is how your mind works?
Go on, tell me it isn't, and then explain why you said what you said about babies, and Hamas. And how many babies, and what your source is.
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Israeli Security Service saying they believe they have killed 20000 people in Gaza since they began their operations there.
Current death toll as given by the Palestinian Health Authority is 9500.
Just for comparison for people who dont like figures given by 'Hamas sources'. You will be pleased with these then?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-newspaper-reports-20000-palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-gaza
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I think the question was more regarding confirmation by an Independant source of the figurrs given by Hamas not whether people "liked" the Hamas figures
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Disliked?
BobG
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MM
Do you have any criticism for Hamas deliberately operating in civilian areas and using civilians as shields.
I'll say again. Hamas started this fighting. What do you expect Israel to do to fight against them? All I've heard is what Israel shouldn't do. But if you have strident opinions on that, presumably you have opinions on what they SHOULD do to neutralise those who launched this violence?
As for the choice of language, there IS a quantitative difference between civilians who are beheaded, kidnapped or raped as a specific aim of an action, and those who are killed as a result of fighting aimed at overcoming a military adversary. That's not my opinion. It is international law.
This "using civilians as human shields" line. Hamas is a group of militant terrorists fighting a guerrilla war. They are based in a densely-populated open-air prison. Netanyahu and his cronies are the architects of the current conditions of that prison! So of course they set up among civilian infrastructure. But those hospitals are still hospitals - they don't become military bases the second a terrorist steps into the lobby. Hamas are evil extremists, yes, but they have been deliberately aided by the Netanyahu regime who propped them up to divide the Palestinian people. I believe you have correctly pointed this out before, but it shouldn't be forgotten about here.
I have said what Israel should do, which is stop deliberately killing civilians out of revenge, a view shared by most humanitarian experts and organisations. You seem to be of the opinion that Israel is not doing this. I think it is undeniable that they are. You do not kill 4,000 kids in a month through accidents and collateral damage. "Show restraint" is the diplomatic language most politicians are using. Your position seems to be that Israel should not show restraint because, oh well, shit happens, and it's Hamas' fault anyway.
Then Israel should enter negotiations to get the hostages back - which they have so far refused to do.
By the way. I usually highly respect the level of analysis you bring to various issues. But comparing this to Mariupol is awful. And shows how badly many on the left analyse the Israel/Palestine issue.
Ukrainian forces in Mariupol were fighting an existential battle THAT THEY DIDN'T INITIATE against an invading force who had attacked them without provocation. They had absolutely zero option but to fight in every way possible. There was no way that the Ukrainian forces could stop the invasion short of militarily beating it off.
The Gaza case is totally different. Hamas STARTED this cycle of violence. They bear the primary responsibility for the consequences. They could stop the invasion and the devastation of Gaza immediately by returning the hostages and disbanding. The existential threat here that the Israeli counter offensive poses is to the existence of Hamas as a thuggish body controlling Gaza, not to the Palestinian people. But Hamas's actions have brought an attack on it, which inevitably results in awful consequences for Palestinian civilians.
For Hamas to hand back the hostages, Israel would have to want them back. But they won't enter negotiations, because Netanyahu would rather wipe more of Gaza off the map than save the hostages. There is increasing disquiet in Israel about this. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/israeli-hostages-relatives-call-for-concessions-to-secure-their-release
And this very clearly is an existential threat to Palestinians. A member of the cabinet openly floated the idea of nuking Gaza last week (admittedly he was suspended for doing so). Netanyahu has stood up in the Knesset and waved around maps in which Gaza has been erased. Israeli MPs and cabinet members regularly describe Palestinians - not Hamas, mind you - as animals.
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Have I missed the post regarding Israel bombing ambulances? I hear this morning they have admitted it.
This is an example of why I get pissed off with the "both sides are bad/it's not black and white" position. If you make out it's a tit for tat, both sides are equal situation, it becomes much easier to shrug off atrocities like bombing ambulances, refugee camps, hospitals, churches, and so on. Turns out you can justify anything if you shrug your shoulders and say you don't believe in taking sides.
This isn't a conflict between equals. Yes, both sides commit atrocities regularly - but one side does so more regularly. Yes, both sides would gladly wipe the other one off the map - but only one side has the capacity to do it. Both sides are suffering - but one side is suffering more. And only one side is supplied with the most advanced weaponry in the world, and carte blanche from the most powerful nations on earth to use it. The distinction matters.
Both sides share some of the blame, going back centuries - but they are not equal.
Care to explain the justification of bombing ambulances if it so pisses you off?
Apologies raven, my post wasn't aimed at you even though it was quoting you. There is no justification for bombing ambulances.
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A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!
They also have nuclear bombs & missiles.
So they have only killed a few thousand women & children and injured tens of thousands more - how lucky they are when they could have killed hundreds of thousands and injured millions all across the Near East.
Scrap that. Dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is an option say's Israeli Minister.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/
The Israeli right, and their supporters on here, wont be happy until they have started WWIII.
Which is what Hamas want them to do.
Middle Eastern eye has a story on this he was the culture minister and has been suspended as his comment is totally unhelpful to the cause of the Israeli Government and the Hostages!
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MM
You don't need to lecture me on the insanity of a crazed far-right idiot talking about nuking Gaza.
You don't need to lecture me about the callousness of Netanyahu, or the outright obscenity of their tactics.
I agree with you on all those points.
But you are ignoring a central point.
The head of Hamas has said explicitly that his policy is to repeat 7 Oct over and over again.
Tell me what a country is supposed to do in those circumstances. Do you believe it is justified for a country to try to neutralise that military threat? Starting from where we were on 7 October. If so, how on earth do you take military action against a military force embedded in civilian infrastructure without major casualties? If not, what do you suggest they do? Sit back and wait for the next 7 Oct?
It's simply a cop out to just say "Israel shouldn't do X" without engaging with the reality of the situation.
And you talk about Israeli opinion. It is hard and firm as far as I can see on the issue that the quasi-fascist ethno-terrorist group Hamas should be eliminated.
Once that is done, there is a chance that an Israel shorn of the current evil leaders might be able to work towards a peaceful two state solution that pretty much the whole world will pressure both sides to work towards. But there simply cannot and will not be peace while ever Hamas remains, promising more 7 Octobers.
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I remember the troubles with the IRA.
They were mixed in with the general public and our Army boys had to go in and flush them out and if necessary, take them out.
I can’t remember us bombing Belfast though.
Lots depended on intelligence information but the Israelis are surely able to gather that.
I’m not picking sides in this current conflict as personally I think both of them are committing atrocities but just suggesting that maybe there is another way without blowing up civilians.
No doubt I will be told I am wrong.
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MM
You don't need to lecture me on the insanity of a crazed far-right idiot talking about nuking Gaza.
You don't need to lecture me about the callousness of Netanyahu, or the outright obscenity of their tactics.
I agree with you on all those points.
But you are ignoring a central point.
The head of Hamas has said explicitly that his policy is to repeat 7 Oct over and over again.
Tell me what a country is supposed to do in those circumstances. Do you believe it is justified for a country to try to neutralise that military threat? Starting from where we were on 7 October. If so, how on earth do you take military action against a military force embedded in civilian infrastructure without major casualties? If not, what do you suggest they do? Sit back and wait for the next 7 Oct?
It's simply a cop out to just say "Israel shouldn't do X" without engaging with the reality of the situation.
And you talk about Israeli opinion. It is hard and firm as far as I can see on the issue that the quasi-fascist ethno-terrorist group Hamas should be eliminated.
Once that is done, there is a chance that an Israel shorn of the current evil leaders might be able to work towards a peaceful two state solution that pretty much the whole world will pressure both sides to work towards. But there simply cannot and will not be peace while ever Hamas remains, promising more 7 Octobers.
Neat justification of genocide.
Until israel changes tack, massively, it will always have a lot of people justifiably furious with it. Time to get real I think. This onslaught will continue. And more so, is likely to spread beyond the Zionist psychos to Jews in gemeral, which would be a travesty, one that the likes of Netanyahu want.
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This is on the BBC news sight Israeli Intelligence ringing key members of the Community before bombing tower blocks and giving them time to evacuate.
“I’m calling from Israeli intelligence. We have the order to bomb. You have two hours'
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This is on the BBC news sight Israeli Intelligence ringing key members of the Community before bombing tower blocks and giving them time to evacuate.
“I’m calling from Israeli intelligence. We have the order to bomb. You have two hours'
Actually have been doing this for a while, but giving 15 mins or so. 2 hours gives Hamas plenty of warning. But all in the name of ethnic cleansing, so that keeps some happy.
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Why would Israeli Intelligence phone prominent figures of authority in Gaza before ‘taking out’ a dozen or so tower blocks if Israel truly intended on genocide of the Palestinians?
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Why would Israeli Intelligence phone prominent figures of authority in Gaza before ‘taking out’ a dozen or so tower blocks if Israel truly intended on genocide of the Palestinians?
The BBC reports what Hamas says - people disbelieve and query it.
THe BBC reports on what the Israeli government/IDF says - people believe and don't query it.
How strange.
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Why would Israeli Intelligence phone prominent figures of authority in Gaza before ‘taking out’ a dozen or so tower blocks if Israel truly intended on genocide of the Palestinians?
Lip service to human rights? Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism?
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Propaganda....
BobG
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Propaganda....
BobG
........ all is phoney!
RAZ
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BST is 100% right
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NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
And who would realistically rule that land?
Come on Bristol. If you’re so outspoken about Israel you must have some idea of the alternative that would rule that land?
Israel is surrounded by countries that have attacked it in the past and are hostile to its existence.
You think 7 million stateless Jews would face no danger after the events we witnessed on Oct 7th?
6 million Jews were murdered in the Nazi Holocaust. Israel was founded so that they had a safe haven free from persecution. Do you not think they need this?
Wise up. No one's saying there would be stateless Jews, just no Israel in the apartheid mode it is right now.
Maybe you approve of that apartheid? Like Israel did, you may also have approved of apartheid South Africa? Or maybe you have an idea to move forwards - properly forwards?
But you just said it would be better if Israel didn’t exist as a state? You seem to be living in fantasy land.
20% of the Israeli population is Arab (so mostly Muslim one would assume).
I can’t find any numbers on the Jewish population of Gaza because perhaps it is 0%.
Why don’t you find equal outrage for Egypt blockading Gaza or countries such as Lebanon and Jordan no longer taking in Palestinian refugees?
Or for Hamas breaking ceasefires?
Do you think Jews needed a safe haven after WW2 or were they being paranoid?
Anyway, poor false equivalency comparing it to South Africa. If that helps you to sanctimoniously feel that you are on the right side of history in what you see as a black and white issue then whatever.
Do you think moderates on either side who want a 2 state solution are calling for apartheid?
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NC, that's not what I said, try reading the words.
My outrage is with the hipcrital abusers which is the state of Israel. The ones with a history of state spinsored murdering, theft, taking hostages/"prisoners", creating a racist state, creating antagonism in a whole region of this planet by simply being utter c***s, and then they cry "poor me" - what a fackin liberty! as some gran may say.
I can criticise Hamas too, tho let's get this in proportion, and see who started the whole thing.
After ww2, and before it, a land in the US would have made more sense. Let's face it, in case you hadn't noticed, Israel is far from a safe place for Jews. What a mental choice... or maybe the reason is purely psycho Zionist cynically using a situation, the halo Aust, for its own ends.
Explani how Israel is similar to South Africa AND how it is different - you said nothing there.
If a 2 state solution is what is wanted by almost all on both sides, that should happen. I personally think lands should be returned to at least a 50/50 area, or more, in favour of Palestinians.
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NC, when someone says the annihilation of Israel, they are talking about the State of Israel, not people, a state.
Israel is top or near the top of most evil regimes on the planet, so that would be a good thing.
What did you mean here then?
How far back are we going on who started it / who was there first?
Your first reply - #10 was after the barbaric savage terrorist attacks, no criticism of Hamas.
Another early reply of yours #23. You blame “there will never be peace” on Israel only.
Why give Palestine more land when it has also war-mongered and hasn’t ever been a country?
On the America point. By your logic, that wouldn’t be land for the US to give away because they stole it from the native nomadic people.
This is what most of human history looks like, it’s messy. But you are being a trade off denialist about this conflict.
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The Israelis too are not above kidnapping and abuse. I'm sure you will remember Mordechai Vanunu who was kidnapped in Italy by Mossad, spent 18 years in prison, 11 of them in solitary confinement. Amnesty International declared him a prisoner of conscience. Made no difference at all.
BobG
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Dammed if they do and Dammed if they don’t!
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Dammed if they do and Dammed if they don’t!
Damned when they murder so many civilians. Damned when they sacrifice so many of their troops. Damned when they are accused of the war crimes by UN, Amnesty etc. Cheered on by most western governments and leaders.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
Which is precisely the reason that Hamas has to be eliminated.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
Which is precisely the reason that Hamas has to be eliminated.
And the current IDF operation/Netanyahu government policy is doing more to recruit for them than it is to eliminate them.
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Those tunnels are now expensive tombs, and it will be interesting to see how the pathways work, or if Hamas allow the civilians to make them work.
The one thing Israel have now is time, if the other Arab nations were going to come into the fray they would have by now, the yanks turning up in strength has stopped that, and the only thing now is the noise that Israel are just ignoring.
The distribution of the aid will no doubt at least be monitored by Israel if not distributed by them so more facial recognition and checks, and wherever the Hanas top dogs are in the world they need to watch their backs now as they will be hunted down Its turning into a long game now and the countries expected to come into conflict with Israel have been caught out not wanting Palestinians on their patch.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
Which is precisely the reason that Hamas has to be eliminated.
And the current IDF operation/Netanyahu government policy is doing more to recruit for them than it is to eliminate them.
There are two things needed for any prospect of long term peace.
1) Hamas to be no longer running Gaza.
2) Israel to have a centre-left Government.
The latter can come about via the ballot box.
Given that Hamas is a mafia-style dictatorship, what is the mechanism whereby the former can happen, other than militarily defeating and eliminating them?
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Isn't Israel a mafia style dictatorship too? Oh yeah, the "ballot box".
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
That is actually the best and most accurate post on 21 pages of this thread.
The first post that actually says exactly what Hamas is all about.
They do not give one iota about the Palestinian people. Not one. They are disgusting cowards hiding behind the Palestinian people to try and achieve their agenda.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
That is actually the best and most accurate post on 21 pages of this thread.
The first post that actually says exactly what Hamas is all about.
They do not give one iota about the Palestinian people. Not one. They are disgusting cowards hiding behind the Palestinian people to try and achieve their agenda.
But they were elected by the Palestinian people in 2006 Campsall.
I've no dog in this fight mate , let me make that clear .
I'm for the two state solution personally .
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Reports of Hamas opening fire on Palestinian civilians who are trying to evacuate from North Gaza.
Some freedom fighters eh?
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Reports of Hamas opening fire on Palestinian civilians who are trying to evacuate from North Gaza.
Some freedom fighters eh?
Reports too of Israel bombing civilians including hospitals. I could be wrong.
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Israel playing it cute with the four hour cease fires, there will be one way out under their control, facial recognition and searches etc, checks all the way, and they know the perpetrators they are really after.
Will Hamas let their civilian cover out? will they try and assimilate to get out? Anyone left considered inside the box considered fair game.
Hamas have hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza. If they wanted to get out they already will have done.
They dont want to get away. They want all this to happen. They want to fight Israelis and try and kill as many as they can. In order to get the IDF to commit more atrocities, kill more babies, women and children, bomb more hospitals and turn public opinion across the world against them.
That is actually the best and most accurate post on 21 pages of this thread.
The first post that actually says exactly what Hamas is all about.
They do not give one iota about the Palestinian people. Not one. They are disgusting cowards hiding behind the Palestinian people to try and achieve their agenda.
Could be that Israel wants Palestinians to lay down and accept an apartheid state including all the state murdering and thieving that goes with that.
It seems clear they knew what was coming from Hamas and allowed it. Also very clear they've done all possible to feed Hamas with their relentless state murdering year on year.
Now they have constructed their, illegal, case for mass genocide.
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An interesting read https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/palestine-mandate
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Wilts, what do you think the surrounding and stand off was for at the start of it all, Hamas have gone nowhere in numbers and are now shipping serious hurt.
Even if they have got out of there they are now exposed in the open and will be hunted down, most are walking dead, and Israel are not going to listen to any outside influences, especially now the other Arab states at one time thought to come to the party have jibbed out, although I think the Yanks and Israel would quite like some to try their hand and sort a few out.
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Wilts, what do you think the surrounding and stand off was for at the start of it all, Hamas have gone nowhere in numbers and are now shipping serious hurt.
Even if they have got out of there they are now exposed in the open and will be hunted down, most are walking dead, and Israel are not going to listen to any outside influences, especially now the other Arab states at one time thought to come to the party have jibbed out, although I think the Yanks and Israel would quite like some to try their hand and sort a few out.
You (and you are by far not alone in this) are seeing this conflict in totally the wrong way Selby. You seem be viewing it as two sides/armies fighting one another - like on the war films.
It's not. It's two totaly irreconcilable and incompatable ideologies. Casualties to them are irrelevant. They will be replaced. Maybe not for 6 months, 6 years, 10 years.But so long as they have an enemy to fight - they will keep fighting.
As I have said several times, until both sides are prepared to loose it will keep going. And until the outside powers are prepared to step in and stop providing them with arms but diplomatic solutions, that wont happen.
The surrounding and stand-off were to allow the bombing to go ahead btw. For revenge/pr purposes. Netanyahu had to do something or he would have been ousted. And he knew he wouldn't be bombing Hamas as they are in the tunnels.
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They will be replaced…but not in Gaza, which will be an occupied territory.
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Wilts, it might surprise you to know the been they have been dropping buildings to seal them up and then the bulldozers and tanks make sure they stay that way for a while.
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Selby nothing surprises me.
But Netanyahu/the IDF endangering the hostages - who are in the tunnels - would come close to it.
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We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba," Avi Dichter, former head of Shin Bet (the Israeli Security Service) and a minister in Netanyahu's government.
The Nakba was the ethnic cleansing of close to a million Palestinians out of the area Israel claimed in 1948. This man has recently been in charge of keeping the Arabs minority in Israel safe.
https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453
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Israel said to be in talks with Tony Blair to become Gaza 'Humanitarian Co-ordinator'.
That should sort it out no problem!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-seeking-to-appoint-uks-tony-blair-as-gaza-humanitarian-coordinator/
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Israel said to be in talks with Tony Blair to become Gaza 'Humanitarian Co-ordinator'.
That should sort it out no problem!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-seeking-to-appoint-uks-tony-blair-as-gaza-humanitarian-coordinator/
From what I'm reading right now Hostage Negotiator skills may be essential for the role because without them Gaza and Humanitarian are about as likely as Sutton United and The Premier League .
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Wiki has a disproportionately high number of pro israel and zionist editors, including up the hierarchies, just saying.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas. Civilians must be allowed to leave the combat zone. These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff. The EU emphasizes that international humanitarian law stipulates that hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals must be protected.”
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/11/12/statement-by-the-high-representative-on-behalf-of-the-european-union-on-humanitarian-pauses-in-gaza/
This is also worth a read from 2014. Reports from the United Nations that Hamas stockpile munitions in schools and mosques.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Is it still Zionist conspiracy if the UN and EU say it - or are the puppeteer Zionist’s pulling the strings there too?
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24727231/jeremy-corbyn-hamas-piers-morgan-talktv/?utm_campaign=native_share&utm_source=sharebar_native&utm_medium=sharebar_native
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I mean Piers is Piers, but it's a simple question and answer, baffling he won't say it and many wanted him to be PM....
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We all know that politicians don’t answer questions.
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I mean Piers is Piers, but it's a simple question and answer, baffling he won't say it and many wanted him to be PM....
I think we saw the real Corbyn today , spineless apologist for Terror!
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The BBC announced that the Poo enraging BBC a n d White House have confirmed their belief that thee is a Hamas Command centre under the Al Shiffa Hospital!
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So why are the Pro Palestinian media outlets Bleating about the Israeli Army taking control o the Al Shiffa Hospital. Surely it’s a good thing, edical supplies taken in and they won’t be Israeli Bombs falling in its vicinity, so why are the So called Doctors refusing assistance, what happened to their hypocritatic Oath?
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So why are the Pro Palestinian media outlets Bleating about the Israeli Army taking control o the Al Shiffa Hospital. Surely it’s a good thing, edical supplies taken in and they won’t be Israeli Bombs falling in its vicinity, so why are the So called Doctors refusing assistance, what happened to their hypocritatic Oath?
"so called doctors"
There might be a lot of "so called" going on, but picking that one is losing the plot completely.
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Wiki has a disproportionately high number of pro israel and zionist editors, including up the hierarchies, just saying.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas. Civilians must be allowed to leave the combat zone. These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff. The EU emphasizes that international humanitarian law stipulates that hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals must be protected.”
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/11/12/statement-by-the-high-representative-on-behalf-of-the-european-union-on-humanitarian-pauses-in-gaza/
This is also worth a read from 2014. Reports from the United Nations that Hamas stockpile munitions in schools and mosques.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Is it still Zionist conspiracy if the UN and EU say it - or are the puppeteer Zionist’s pulling the strings there too?
So you agree with my point about wiki?
Assuming that is the over Riding View of the EU and UN, I wonder what they're basing that on? Israeli reports perhaps? At least one Israeli excuse for mass murder in a hospital was based on fake, or thick, reports of a Hamas tunnel next to it. Is the targeting of one Hamas person where many citizens were killed due to human shielding? And if so, is that justified according to UN and other laws of war? It isn't. Is the targeting of ambulances, of refugees in "safe zones" allowed? The Israeli war crimes are huge. Far more than Hamas.
What's your skin in this game? You seem very hooked into Zionist perspectives.
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I mean Piers is Piers, but it's a simple question and answer, baffling he won't say it and many wanted him to be PM....
I think we saw the real Corbyn today , spineless apologist for Terror!
Is he supporting Israel now? He is spineless then.
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Has starmer sacked the 56 yet? Like he said he would?
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Has starmer sacked the 56 yet? Like he said he would?
The ones who were on the front bench who hadn't already resigned, yes.
IDF now walking back from its "command centre" claim that was the supposed justification for besieging a hospital. So all those newborn babies who died and couldn't be buried, along with hundreds of other innocents, their corpses left for stray dogs to eat, died so the IDF could potentially access a tunnel - who knows if even that much is true.
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Has starmer sacked the 56 yet? Like he said he would?
Back benchers can't be sacked, but you'd know that?
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Someone talking sense
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1724328272308154751
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Someone talking sense
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1724328272308154751
Which bit was "sense" to you? Or do you think all of it was? What was his overall point?
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Has starmer sacked the 56 yet? Like he said he would?
The ones who were on the front bench who hadn't already resigned, yes.
IDF now walking back from its "command centre" claim that was the supposed justification for besieging a hospital. So all those newborn babies who died and couldn't be buried, along with hundreds of other innocents, their corpses left for stray dogs to eat, died so the IDF could potentially access a tunnel - who knows if even that much is true.
I saw a vid made by IDF showing the 8 command centre guns, the command centre laptop and some discs. Going by this, HAMAS must have a few dozen soldiers in total, maybe bio engineered? Waiting on seeing if they also find the real Saddam Hussein clutching a nuclear drone.
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Someone talking sense
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1724328272308154751
Which bit was "sense" to you? Or do you think all of it was? What was his overall point?
If you are searching for a point I'll provide you with one that isn't connected to that video .
It goes like this , Hamas attacks Israel and murders 1400 of its people .
Here's the point , the retaliation and offensive will stop when Israel decides to stop because looking at history these past few days on this conflict I've learned that is how it's gone down in previous wars with Egypt , Syria and Jordan .
If it's existence feels threatened or it's attacked the response is pretty brutal , they killed 15k Egyptians in a single day in 1967 because they thought they were going to be attacked .
Now whilst I agree this isn't exactly pleasant to say the least perhaps it's best not to attack them at all and it's it definitely not a good idea if Israel ends up losing its biggest amount of people since the holocaust as a consequence of said attack .
The bigger point of course is that anybody else wanting a pop at Israel is getting a good look in Gaza at the consequences , the strange thing is , given history what exactly were Hamas expecting ?
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Wiki has a disproportionately high number of pro israel and zionist editors, including up the hierarchies, just saying.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas. Civilians must be allowed to leave the combat zone. These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff. The EU emphasizes that international humanitarian law stipulates that hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals must be protected.”
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/11/12/statement-by-the-high-representative-on-behalf-of-the-european-union-on-humanitarian-pauses-in-gaza/
This is also worth a read from 2014. Reports from the United Nations that Hamas stockpile munitions in schools and mosques.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Is it still Zionist conspiracy if the UN and EU say it - or are the puppeteer Zionist’s pulling the strings there too?
So you agree with my point about wiki?
Assuming that is the over Riding View of the EU and UN, I wonder what they're basing that on? Israeli reports perhaps? At least one Israeli excuse for mass murder in a hospital was based on fake, or thick, reports of a Hamas tunnel next to it. Is the targeting of one Hamas person where many citizens were killed due to human shielding? And if so, is that justified according to UN and other laws of war? It isn't. Is the targeting of ambulances, of refugees in "safe zones" allowed? The Israeli war crimes are huge. Far more than Hamas.
What's your skin in this game? You seem very hooked into Zionist perspectives.
My skin in the game is wanting to find out the truth as best as I can.
No, Israel are far from perfect in all of this. But you guys have that bit covered.
I’m fed up of going round in circles.
But you carry on making excuses for people who want death to the Jews and death to the West on this and the Ukraine thread if it makes you happy.
Cba
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The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.
Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.
hamas in the past have used civilians as human shields by allegedly hiding out and using a hospital as their HQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Wiki has a disproportionately high number of pro israel and zionist editors, including up the hierarchies, just saying.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas. Civilians must be allowed to leave the combat zone. These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff. The EU emphasizes that international humanitarian law stipulates that hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals must be protected.”
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/11/12/statement-by-the-high-representative-on-behalf-of-the-european-union-on-humanitarian-pauses-in-gaza/
This is also worth a read from 2014. Reports from the United Nations that Hamas stockpile munitions in schools and mosques.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Is it still Zionist conspiracy if the UN and EU say it - or are the puppeteer Zionist’s pulling the strings there too?
So you agree with my point about wiki?
Assuming that is the over Riding View of the EU and UN, I wonder what they're basing that on? Israeli reports perhaps? At least one Israeli excuse for mass murder in a hospital was based on fake, or thick, reports of a Hamas tunnel next to it. Is the targeting of one Hamas person where many citizens were killed due to human shielding? And if so, is that justified according to UN and other laws of war? It isn't. Is the targeting of ambulances, of refugees in "safe zones" allowed? The Israeli war crimes are huge. Far more than Hamas.
What's your skin in this game? You seem very hooked into Zionist perspectives.
My skin in the game is wanting to find out the truth as best as I can.
No, Israel are far from perfect in all of this. But you guys have that bit covered.
I’m fed up of going round in circles.
But you carry on making excuses for people who want death to the Jews and death to the West on this and the Ukraine thread if it makes you happy.
Cba
"death to the Jews" - that is misinformation. That is not truth.
Israel is criminally at fault, is that a truth you understand?
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In fairness the Israeli's told everyone they were going to turn Palestine into rubble forty odd days ago right at the start of hostilities.
And we grumble when our government says it is going to do something and Doesn't.
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In fairness the Israeli's told everyone they were going to turn Palestine into rubble forty odd days ago right at the start of hostilities.
And we grumble when our government says it is going to do something and Doesn't.
Seems the IDF have compiled a 43 Minute long film of ‘Home Movies’ compiled by Hamas on October 7th which shows 129 horrific Murders committed, it has been viewed by the Australian Parliament and Andrew Hatstie has said “evil really did walk on the face of the Earth on October 7th, it has also been seen by the French Parliament who were visibly shaken at the atrocities committed by Hamas! Hastie states that the War will end when Hamas is annihilated or if they choose to return all Hostages and surrender. He was very disingenuous to Apologists for Terror screaming for a Cease fire!
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It's not the IDF. There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. It all minimises and almost all ignores the brutal murdering of Palestinians by Israel. This is the level of extremism that Israeli Jews are pounded with since birth. It's what many countries are bound, literally bound, to regurgitate. It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda.
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simultaneously raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
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Hey Sproty 2 questions
1 Why would Israeli soldiers shoot dead Palestinians?
2 How do dead Palestinians fire sling shots?
:-]] only kidding
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Errr, Israel has bombed/shelled tens of thousands of Palestinian homes killing tens of thousands of innocent women and children. Additionally settlers in the West Bank have murdered or expelled hundreds of Palestinian farmers from the homes their families have lived in for centuries.
It's not a doctor you need. It's an optician for the myopia.
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
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There's a remarkable series that the BBC have pulled from the archives from 1998 and put on iPlayer in 6 hourly parts .
It was made to mark 50 years of the conflict with it's starting point with the creation of Israel in 1948 .
It's education value about this conflict is huge for me personally , to say it's complex is an understatement for many of us .
I was in the past very sceptical about whether the existence of Israel was actually credible but having watched this documentary I'm more than convinced of it's right to exist following the holocaust during WW2 .
How it was created and how that played out with regard to the Palestinians is perhaps something that could have been done better in a perfect world but given everything on the table at that time was probably impossible to do .
Certainly a few eggs had to be broken to create this omelette that's called Israel , the problem was nobody outside of the divide seemed to know what that omelette would look like once it was made .
What is clear from the documentary is that once the state of Israel was created there was absolutely no way anybody or anything ever going to take it away from the Israelis .
They were and still are prepared to do absolutely anything it takes to preserve the state they have , if they needed to use a nuclear weapon they wouldn't think twice .
This is a people who for centuries were dispensed all across the world and without a country , a people persecuted for most of it , discriminated against and during WW2 murdered by the millions .
Until you try and walk in those shoes you probably aren't going to understand why things are the way they are today during this present conflict .
There are no rules when a people are fighting for it's very existence as unpleasant as that may well be for the vast majority of people .
There will be no Palestine , there will be no two state solution and only Israel will ever exist and it's fruitless to think otherwise .
Over two million Arabs live in Israel today and they have accepted the state and live side by side with the Jewish population in relative peace .
That's the only solution that will work , give it up Palestinians and accept it , there will be no Palestine .
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There's a remarkable series that the BBC have pulled from the archives from 1998 and put on iPlayer in 6 hourly parts .
It was made to mark 50 years of the conflict with it's starting point with the creation of Israel in 1948 .
It's education value about this conflict is huge for me personally , to say it's complex is an understatement for many of us .
I was in the past very sceptical about whether the existence of Israel was actually credible but having watched this documentary I'm more than convinced of it's right to exist following the holocaust during WW2 .
How it was created and how that played out with regard to the Palestinians is perhaps something that could have been done better in a perfect world but given everything on the table at that time was probably impossible to do .
Certainly a few eggs had to be broken to create this omelette that's called Israel , the problem was nobody outside of the divide seemed to know what that omelette would look like once it was made .
What is clear from the documentary is that once the state of Israel was created there was absolutely no way anybody or anything ever going to take it away from the Israelis .
They were and still are prepared to do absolutely anything it takes to preserve the state they have , if they needed to use a nuclear weapon they wouldn't think twice .
This is a people who for centuries were dispensed all across the world and without a country , a people persecuted for most of it , discriminated against and during WW2 murdered by the millions .
Until you try and walk in those shoes you probably aren't going to understand why things are the way they are today during this present conflict .
There are no rules when a people are fighting for it's very existence as unpleasant as that may well be for the vast majority of people .
There will be no Palestine , there will be no two state solution and only Israel will ever exist and it's fruitless to think otherwise .
Over two million Arabs live in Israel today and they have accepted the state and live side by side with the Jewish population in relative peace .
That's the only solution that will work , give it up Palestinians and accept it , there will be no Palestine .
and yet, that's exactly what Palestinians are fighting for.
-
There's a remarkable series that the BBC have pulled from the archives from 1998 and put on iPlayer in 6 hourly parts .
It was made to mark 50 years of the conflict with it's starting point with the creation of Israel in 1948 .
It's education value about this conflict is huge for me personally , to say it's complex is an understatement for many of us .
I was in the past very sceptical about whether the existence of Israel was actually credible but having watched this documentary I'm more than convinced of it's right to exist following the holocaust during WW2 .
How it was created and how that played out with regard to the Palestinians is perhaps something that could have been done better in a perfect world but given everything on the table at that time was probably impossible to do .
Certainly a few eggs had to be broken to create this omelette that's called Israel , the problem was nobody outside of the divide seemed to know what that omelette would look like once it was made .
What is clear from the documentary is that once the state of Israel was created there was absolutely no way anybody or anything ever going to take it away from the Israelis .
They were and still are prepared to do absolutely anything it takes to preserve the state they have , if they needed to use a nuclear weapon they wouldn't think twice .
This is a people who for centuries were dispensed all across the world and without a country , a people persecuted for most of it , discriminated against and during WW2 murdered by the millions .
Until you try and walk in those shoes you probably aren't going to understand why things are the way they are today during this present conflict .
There are no rules when a people are fighting for it's very existence as unpleasant as that may well be for the vast majority of people .
There will be no Palestine , there will be no two state solution and only Israel will ever exist and it's fruitless to think otherwise .
Over two million Arabs live in Israel today and they have accepted the state and live side by side with the Jewish population in relative peace .
That's the only solution that will work , give it up Palestinians and accept it , there will be no Palestine .
and yet, that's exactly what Palestinians are fighting for.
Only because they insist on attacking the Israelis .
As I stated there are over two million Arabs who live side by side with Jews in Israel in relative peace .
Have a look at the amount of Jews who live in Islamic states or even Gaza .
There are next to none and there were thousands upon thousands before Israel was created .
What that tells us is very clear about tolerance and acceptance of another religion and ideology because Israel was created .
What that tells us is that Jews are accepting of Muslims just so long as they aren't trying to kill them and annihilate Israel .
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
" From The River To The Sea Palestine Will Be Free "
Coded Genocide .
Free of what ?
Let's try Jews .
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
" From The River To The Sea Palestine Will Be Free "
Coded Genocide .
Free of what ?
Let's try Jews .
the chant “From the river to the sea” is a translation of the original Arabic chant “from the water to the water, Palestine will remain Arab.” This is a genocidal call to ethnically cleanse the land from all non-Arabs i.e. the Jews.
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1720594508318916862
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There's a remarkable series that the BBC have pulled from the archives from 1998 and put on iPlayer in 6 hourly parts .
It was made to mark 50 years of the conflict with it's starting point with the creation of Israel in 1948 .
It's education value about this conflict is huge for me personally , to say it's complex is an understatement for many of us .
I was in the past very sceptical about whether the existence of Israel was actually credible but having watched this documentary I'm more than convinced of it's right to exist following the holocaust during WW2 .
How it was created and how that played out with regard to the Palestinians is perhaps something that could have been done better in a perfect world but given everything on the table at that time was probably impossible to do .
Certainly a few eggs had to be broken to create this omelette that's called Israel , the problem was nobody outside of the divide seemed to know what that omelette would look like once it was made .
What is clear from the documentary is that once the state of Israel was created there was absolutely no way anybody or anything ever going to take it away from the Israelis .
They were and still are prepared to do absolutely anything it takes to preserve the state they have , if they needed to use a nuclear weapon they wouldn't think twice .
This is a people who for centuries were dispensed all across the world and without a country , a people persecuted for most of it , discriminated against and during WW2 murdered by the millions .
Until you try and walk in those shoes you probably aren't going to understand why things are the way they are today during this present conflict .
There are no rules when a people are fighting for it's very existence as unpleasant as that may well be for the vast majority of people .
There will be no Palestine , there will be no two state solution and only Israel will ever exist and it's fruitless to think otherwise .
Over two million Arabs live in Israel today and they have accepted the state and live side by side with the Jewish population in relative peace .
That's the only solution that will work , give it up Palestinians and accept it , there will be no Palestine .
There were many cases of mass displacement of ethnic/cultural groups from one place to another during the massive upheavals of the 20th century.
Something above 15 million Germans moved westwards, from what is now Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Romania, into Germany at the end of WWII.
At the end of WWI, 1.5 million Greeks and Turks were forcibly moved from out of what is now the borders of Turkey and Greece respectively.
Maybe 20 million people were displaced in the partition of India and Pakistan.
Every one of those occurrences caused massive individual and collective suffering and upheaval, both to those moving and to those who had to accommodate new arrivers in "their" land.
Only the case of Israelis moving to the Levant resulted in an organised attempt by surrounding states to destroy the new community by military action. Only in the case of Israel are there still major states and non-state military groups still committed to destroying the presence of the arrivers in "their" land.
None of which is to minimise the crimes of the extreme Israeli nationalists over the past 75 years. But you have to ask why the effects of these horrific mass movements of people in other parts of the world have not led to the same threat to the arrivers as has happened in the case of the Jews.
It's f**king complicated. It can only be resolved by an acceptance that both sides have a right to live there and prosper. Calling back to past "crimes" will mean there will never be a way forward.
PS. That was broadly supporting your post Tyke. Other than that I profoundly disagree that there will be no Palestine. The only way that happens AND there is peace is if the entire Palestine people are eradicated.
The only morally acceptable path to peace is a two state solution, with both sides respecting the others' right to exist.
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
" From The River To The Sea Palestine Will Be Free "
Coded Genocide .
Free of what ?
Let's try Jews .
Keep consuming that BBC diet.
"Palestine will be free" could well mean Palestine will be free. Free of a Jewish apartheid state perhaps. Inclusive of Jews, as it was before the psycho foreign Zionists barged in. Israel uses the same phrase, did you know that?
By the way, are you on board with the Labour central office Zionist movement?
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
" From The River To The Sea Palestine Will Be Free "
Coded Genocide .
Free of what ?
Let's try Jews .
Keep consuming that BBC diet.
"Palestine will be free" could well mean Palestine will be free. Free of a Jewish apartheid state perhaps. Inclusive of Jews, as it was before the psycho foreign Zionists barged in. Israel uses the same phrase, did you know that?
By the way, are you on board with the Labour central office Zionist movement?
Sounds to me that you’re a terrorist supporter but it doesn’t come as a surprise seeing your a supporter of the terrorist state of Russia
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Brr I think you need a check up from Neck up, Israeli Soldiers shooting Dead Palestinian youths firing sling shots at them is abhorrent, but the Israelis haven’t simuy raided several thousand homes selected and murdered the Men and women an then turned on the kids! It’s an entire different kettle of fish, if you can’t see the duo you need to see your Doctor!
Lots of totally innocent been murdered by Israel since the start of their occupation of Palestine all the way up to today. That's plain old truth. Not sure what sickness you've been fed?
" From The River To The Sea Palestine Will Be Free "
Coded Genocide .
Free of what ?
Let's try Jews .
Keep consuming that BBC diet.
"Palestine will be free" could well mean Palestine will be free. Free of a Jewish apartheid state perhaps. Inclusive of Jews, as it was before the psycho foreign Zionists barged in. Israel uses the same phrase, did you know that?
By the way, are you on board with the Labour central office Zionist movement?
I'm on board with very little when it comes to the Labour Party .
Now let's examine this apartheid claim you've made and one I possibly shared a few weeks ago .
Would that be the apartheid where two million Arabs live at the side of Jews in relative peace because said Arabs aren't trying to kill Jews or eliminate the state of Israel .
Or are we talking about Palestinians hell bent on killing Jews , driving them out and renaming the country Palestine and from an Israeli perspective need to be contained because they contain a significant threat to the security of Israel .
You could have used terms such as " against the occupation " or " against Israel's policies " but you decided to go full in with apartheid in a South African way much in the same way many use the term Nazis when describing the Israeli government because many know just how that term would find its mark with Jewish people .
The South African apartheid was a deliberate policy to separate white from black , a deliberate policy to deny human rights and any voice to black people on purely the most racist terms imaginable .
The two aren't even comparable given as I say the two million Arabs who peacefully reside in Israel .
Here's the thing , stop attacking the Jews and murdering them , stop trying to eliminate Israel and the Palestinians will stop getting slaughtered in Gaza .
Accept the state of Israel and all this nastiness goes away in my opinion .
Perhaps living side by side in peace as Israel they might obtain better governments together given Hamas representing the Palestinians and the present Israeli government is probably something both people's could do better .
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Just as an aside, the Palestine mandate included what is now Jordan
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Just as an aside, the Palestine mandate included what is now Jordan
Including two attempts on King Hussein's life by the PLO .
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Bonkers.
So not into labour. Guess not right wing, authoritarian enough for you. Seriously tho, having heard your humanitarian views on other issues, your perspective on this is bizarre.
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Youtube has a lot to answer for aye?
And yet religion is the basis of much of this.
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Bonkers.
So not into labour. Guess not right wing, authoritarian enough for you. Seriously tho, having heard your humanitarian views on other issues, your perspective on this is bizarre.
How humanitarian do I have to be when I'm seeking the peace in this conflict with both people living side by side .
Bizarre would be running the Palestinians out of Gaza and over the border in to Egypt for good .
May as well run them out of the West Bank and in to Jordan too whilst we are at , that would bring peace but that's not a solution I'd like to see .
The reality seems to pass the Palestinians by 76 years down the line and counting .
Palestine won't ever exist and the Jews aren't leaving anytime soon , like ever .
The Palestinians can't win , they can make life extremely difficult for Israel I'll say that but not as difficult as the Israelis can make life difficult for the Palestinians .
Western opinion going against them , they couldn't care less , the US didn't back them in the 1967 war but they went ahead anyway .
So what's the smart thing to do ?
Accept Israel of course and build a peace that enables both communities to co exist .
The compromise is the two state solution if the above can't be negotiated .
Otherwise this thing goes on and on and on .
If Israel could be defeated , it would have happened already , decades ago .
Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book , why don't we do that with a bit of Mandela wisdom throw in for good measure .
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Bonkers.
So not into labour. Guess not right wing, authoritarian enough for you. Seriously tho, having heard your humanitarian views on other issues, your perspective on this is bizarre.
How humanitarian do I have to be when I'm seeking the peace in this conflict with both people living side by side .
Bizarre would be running the Palestinians out of Gaza and over the border in to Egypt for good .
May as well run them out of the West Bank and in to Jordan too whilst we are at , that would bring peace but that's not a solution I'd like to see .
The reality seems to pass the Palestinians by 76 years down the line and counting .
Palestine won't ever exist and the Jews aren't leaving anytime soon , like ever .
The Palestinians can't win , they can make life extremely difficult for Israel I'll say that but not as difficult as the Israelis can make life difficult for the Palestinians .
Western opinion going against them , they couldn't care less , the US didn't back them in the 1967 war but they went ahead anyway .
So what's the smart thing to do ?
Accept Israel of course and build a peace that enables both communities to co exist .
The compromise is the two state solution if the above can't be negotiated .
Otherwise this thing goes on and on and on .
If Israel could be defeated , it would have happened already , decades ago .
Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book , why don't we do that with a bit of Mandela wisdom throw in for good measure .
you must like to hear the sound of your keypad, do you start writing a speech each time you dial a number tyke?
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Bonkers.
So not into labour. Guess not right wing, authoritarian enough for you. Seriously tho, having heard your humanitarian views on other issues, your perspective on this is bizarre.
How humanitarian do I have to be when I'm seeking the peace in this conflict with both people living side by side .
Bizarre would be running the Palestinians out of Gaza and over the border in to Egypt for good .
May as well run them out of the West Bank and in to Jordan too whilst we are at , that would bring peace but that's not a solution I'd like to see .
The reality seems to pass the Palestinians by 76 years down the line and counting .
Palestine won't ever exist and the Jews aren't leaving anytime soon , like ever .
The Palestinians can't win , they can make life extremely difficult for Israel I'll say that but not as difficult as the Israelis can make life difficult for the Palestinians .
Western opinion going against them , they couldn't care less , the US didn't back them in the 1967 war but they went ahead anyway .
So what's the smart thing to do ?
Accept Israel of course and build a peace that enables both communities to co exist .
The compromise is the two state solution if the above can't be negotiated .
Otherwise this thing goes on and on and on .
If Israel could be defeated , it would have happened already , decades ago .
Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book , why don't we do that with a bit of Mandela wisdom throw in for good measure .
you must like to hear the sound of your keypad, do you start writing a speech each time you dial a number tyke?
Great people talk about ideas , average people talk about themselves , small people talk about others .
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Tykey, be a luv, check the pantry and make a shopping list ...............
OK, I'm on it,
eggs
milk
partition if India .............
bacon, erm?
sugar
Rohingya, nah
jam
strawberries
cream
sovrenty, brexit x10
sovrenty Palestinians, nah
anything you need dahl?
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Tyke, the word 'apartheid' isn't thrown around flippantly. It's the opinion of the UN, amnesty international, human rights watch, and many other organisations with a better handle on this than anyone posting on here. Apartheid is also a term used by many Jewish human rights orgs like Na'amod, by the way.
Palestine is an occupied territory, and it's people and infrastructure are controlled by Israel. How do you think Israel has the ability to cut off power and water in Gaza?
Israel is the occupying force. For all intents and purposes people in Gaza and the West Bank are part of the Israeli state. That's why it's apartheid.
It's easy to sit there and say Palestinians should just roll over and let themselves be wiped out when you're halfway across the world. If it was you being forcibly evicted from your house at gunpoint, so some settlers from New York could move in, all supported by the police and government, I wonder if you'd just accept it.
Well the UN has a pretty unbalanced record when it comes to Israel , I'm not going to tell you Israel is an innocent state by any means but neither are the Saudis , Qatar , Venezuela and a few more unhinged states who the UN have a remarkable habit of looking the other way .
My position is finding peace and the only solution I can see that ends this conflict and stops the deaths and misery is for the Palestinians to accept the state of Israel .
That clearly goes against everything that the Palestinians believe in but getting your ass handed to you every time you have a pop at Israel doesn't seem very sensible to me either .
I'm sure Adams and Sinn Fein weren't anything other than grudgingly of accepting the peace process in NI but they knew they couldn't win either .
When the Palestinians say that " you can't be victorious over a people who believe that death is only the beginning and not the end " i find that a pretty deluded statement .
I've never seen a dead person come back and be stronger for it yet and neither has anybody else .
Bonkers.
So not into labour. Guess not right wing, authoritarian enough for you. Seriously tho, having heard your humanitarian views on other issues, your perspective on this is bizarre.
How humanitarian do I have to be when I'm seeking the peace in this conflict with both people living side by side .
Bizarre would be running the Palestinians out of Gaza and over the border in to Egypt for good .
May as well run them out of the West Bank and in to Jordan too whilst we are at , that would bring peace but that's not a solution I'd like to see .
The reality seems to pass the Palestinians by 76 years down the line and counting .
Palestine won't ever exist and the Jews aren't leaving anytime soon , like ever .
The Palestinians can't win , they can make life extremely difficult for Israel I'll say that but not as difficult as the Israelis can make life difficult for the Palestinians .
Western opinion going against them , they couldn't care less , the US didn't back them in the 1967 war but they went ahead anyway .
So what's the smart thing to do ?
Accept Israel of course and build a peace that enables both communities to co exist .
The compromise is the two state solution if the above can't be negotiated .
Otherwise this thing goes on and on and on .
If Israel could be defeated , it would have happened already , decades ago .
Take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book , why don't we do that with a bit of Mandela wisdom throw in for good measure .
Apologies, I misread something in what you said after reading the first part which appears to be denying Israeli apartheid.
Yes, a 2 state solution is the way. If that is the case, then Palestine should be recognised as a state already by the UN, and all countries. This would be a significant step towards peace, right now. I recall Corbyn's Labour Party having this as a key policy. One of the main, if not the main reason it was shafted by the inner party (well evidenced) and the Zionist mass media.
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No cavalry coming over the hill yet, not even their own kind want them, Why is there no marches about the 600000 killed by their own kind, they can't stop fighting themselves.
The biggest problem they have is their breeding habits, they have doubled their population in the last ten years, or is that by design and the way they will take over the Europe.
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No cavalry coming over the hill yet, not even their own kind want them, Why is there no marches about the 600000 killed by their own kind, they can't stop fighting themselves.
The biggest problem they have is their breeding habits, they have doubled their population in the last ten years, or is that by design and the way they will take over the Europe.
Swedens experience is a warning to us all!
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No cavalry coming over the hill yet, not even their own kind want them, Why is there no marches about the 600000 killed by their own kind, they can't stop fighting themselves.
The biggest problem they have is their breeding habits, they have doubled their population in the last ten years, or is that by design and the way they will take over the Europe.
I think that may break the anti semitic rules on this board.
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No cavalry coming over the hill yet, not even their own kind want them, Why is there no marches about the 600000 killed by their own kind, they can't stop fighting themselves.
The biggest problem they have is their breeding habits, they have doubled their population in the last ten years, or is that by design and the way they will take over the Europe.
Swedens experience is a warning to us all!
The way they invaded Britain you mean, well, the Britain that had already invaded by Germans... which had already been colonised by Italians on top of several other invasions by various Europeans. Poor "Brits", always taken over by Johnny foreigner, albeit none of those dirty brown skins. You'd have thought "we'd" have done the same.... oh, wait....
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BRR, I hope you eventually work it out, I think that is one rule I definitely have not broken.
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No cavalry coming over the hill yet, not even their own kind want them, Why is there no marches about the 600000 killed by their own kind, they can't stop fighting themselves.
The biggest problem they have is their breeding habits, they have doubled their population in the last ten years, or is that by design and the way they will take over the Europe.
Swedens experience is a warning to us all!
Terrible what's happened over there .
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It is a shame that a religion which gave us the Alphabet, scientific knowledge and taught religious tolerance, not to mention the majestic cities of Andalusian Spain has gone full circle and now mirrors our own ignorance and religious intolerance in the Medieval period.
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It is a shame that a religion which gave us the Alphabet, scientific knowledge and taught religious tolerance, not to mention the majestic cities of Andalusian Spain has gone full circle and now mirrors our own ignorance and religious intolerance in the Medieval period.
Maybe we need another era of Enlightenment , although I'm not sure there's the talent today mind .
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It is a shame that a religion which gave us the Alphabet, scientific knowledge and taught religious tolerance, not to mention the majestic cities of Andalusian Spain has gone full circle and now mirrors our own ignorance and religious intolerance in the Medieval period.
Surely those that developed ideas and shared their learned scientific knowledge had religion in their lives not the other way around sprot
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It is a shame that a religion which gave us the Alphabet, scientific knowledge and taught religious tolerance, not to mention the majestic cities of Andalusian Spain has gone full circle and now mirrors our own ignorance and religious intolerance in the Medieval period.
Surely those that developed ideas and shared their learned scientific knowledge had religion in their lives not the other way around sprot
[/quote
No forward thinking libertines like yourself we’re usually burnt at the Stake by the inquisition!
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BRR, I hope you eventually work it out, I think that is one rule I definitely have not broken.
Whoosh!
I was highlighting your anti islamic/Arab comments. Arabs are semites.
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Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
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Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
[/quoteDid anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
[/quoteDid anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
-
Tyke, it’s fair to say, if BRR takes issue with your opinions, you’re on the right side of history
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
Talk me through the exchange in 2011 between the terrorist group that also doubles up as the Palestine government BRR .
When a single Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was captured in 2006 by the terrorist group Hamas .
Shalit was returned to his family in 2011 in exchange for 1000 Palestinian terrorists and wait for it ........... Drum Roll ..........including Yahya Sinwar the present leader of Hamas .
Now I know the Pro Palestinian support seems to have developed some kind of memory lapse , denial , maybe even the only good Jew is a dead Jew mentality concerning the events of October 7th .
The terrible loss of life in Gaza is the consequence .
There's is absolutely no way Israel is ever going to give up the state they created in 1948 given the history of the Jews before 1948 .
They will do what it takes as unpleasant as that may be .
Never again will they be displaced across Europe and beyond without a State and put themselves again in the position many were in during the 1930's and 40's , when the world left them at the mercy of the Nazis and their collaborators , try and imagine the world turning its back on you and locked inside Nazi Germany , made a non citizen , thrown out of your house , your business taken off you and your bank account seized by the Nazis and then finished off in the gas chambers by the millions .
You have to understand why the Israelis are the way they are because of that history of discrimination , persecution and the holocaust .
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
Prisoners accused of crimes. Prisoners who most definitely went through a more thorough legal process than the 2 men who were publicly executed in gruesome fashion by Hamas after being accused of collaborating with Israel.
The hostages taken by Hamas were innocent civilians.
But why do I bother? You’ll just perform some crazy mental gymnastics and moral equivalence to excuse the kidnapping of toddlers.
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
Prisoners accused of crimes. Prisoners who most definitely went through a more thorough legal process than the 2 men who were publicly executed in gruesome fashion by Hamas after being accused of collaborating with Israel.
The hostages taken by Hamas were innocent civilians.
But why do I bother? You’ll just perform some crazy mental gymnastics and moral equivalence to excuse the kidnapping of toddlers.
It's very interesting when the Pro Palestinians play the Nazi card when focusing in on Israel which isn't to say the Israelis aren't without blood on their hands by any means .
The only Nazis I see are the ones who throw gay people off tall buildings , treat women as second class citizens denying them rights , preach in Mosques the death of Jews , their children and the annihilation of another country so they can take it over and anyone even remotely not following their religious ideology subject to brutality and execution .
You'd hardly know the difference between 1930's and 40's Nuremberg and Gaza City other than the actual Nazis gave their women more rights .
It's not escaped Tyke's attention the number of numb nuts taking to the streets of central London and major city's in the UK with their call for genocide in " the river to the sea " chant and the infamous " queers for Palestine " support group , oh yeah so go to Gaza and see how long they support you .
Some of the left in this country need to have a serious word with themselves most of whom I've respected on other matters , your on your own with this one , here's hoping your brains get returned to you very soon .
I was once pretty sympathetic of the Palestinian cause , even after October 7th I tried to look at it with neutral eyes .
However the more history I've read and watched and the more I've discovered about what actually happened on October 7th if the Israelis ran the Palestinians over the border in to Egypt forever whilst placing the West Bank population on final warning I'd probably wouldn't have a problem with it .
Good Luck to the Palestinians in Egypt too , they can't stand them either .
They might live to regret October 7th , Gaza is the best deal they'll ever have .
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I have been to Palestine - West Bank, I wasn't allowed into Gaza. Went with a Jewish famer, one of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met.
And the only people who attacked me in the three months I was there were Jewish zealots.
I suggest you are the one who needs to go and learn Tyke. With your vile hate preaching and total lack of understanding.
As I have said several times, this is exactly what Hamas want. You to hate Arabs/Muslims - so they then hate you.
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I have been to Palestine - West Bank, I wasn't allowed into Gaza. Went with a Jewish famer, one of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met.
And the only people who attacked me in the three months I was there were Jewish zealots.
I suggest you are the one who needs to go and learn Tyke. With your vile hate preaching and total lack of understanding.
As I have said several times, this is exactly what Hamas want. You to hate Arabs/Muslims - so they then hate you.
Wow I think I've a critic , Hamas aren't capable of making me hate anyone and about the only ones preaching hate are those standing up in a number of UK mosques on a Friday afternoon currently getting investigated by the police , that's a fact by the way .
If I hated Muslims I'd have had plenty in recent history in this country to go on .
I'm educated enough to agree with Robinson's arrest today even though he was only eating his breakfast in a London pub , clearly I'm not that radicalised yet or ever will be .
I'll have my opinion and I'll be silenced by nobody .
-
Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
Talk me through the exchange in 2011 between the terrorist group that also doubles up as the Palestine government BRR .
When a single Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was captured in 2006 by the terrorist group Hamas .
Shalit was returned to his family in 2011 in exchange for 1000 Palestinian terrorists and wait for it ........... Drum Roll ..........including Yahya Sinwar the present leader of Hamas .
Now I know the Pro Palestinian support seems to have developed some kind of memory lapse , denial , maybe even the only good Jew is a dead Jew mentality concerning the events of October 7th .
The terrible loss of life in Gaza is the consequence .
There's is absolutely no way Israel is ever going to give up the state they created in 1948 given the history of the Jews before 1948 .
They will do what it takes as unpleasant as that may be .
Never again will they be displaced across Europe and beyond without a State and put themselves again in the position many were in during the 1930's and 40's , when the world left them at the mercy of the Nazis and their collaborators , try and imagine the world turning its back on you and locked inside Nazi Germany , made a non citizen , thrown out of your house , your business taken off you and your bank account seized by the Nazis and then finished off in the gas chambers by the millions .
You have to understand why the Israelis are the way they are because of that history of discrimination , persecution and the holocaust .
That does nothing to reply to what I asked.
On the issue of a safe place for Jews, Palestine wouldn't be a contender, evidently.
-
There is a lot of misunderstanding of the history and background to this situation on this thread.
It would be helpful if people watched this video, which explains the role of Britain in the conflict;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBU8fM34Jkg
US academic answers some of the key questions, and explains the Palestinian perspective.
An hour or so, but worth it if you really want to understand how it came to this.
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There is a lot of misunderstanding of the history and background to this situation on this thread.
It would be helpful if people watched this video, which explains the role of Britain in the conflict;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBU8fM34Jkg
US academic answers some of the key questions, and explains the Palestinian perspective.
An hour or so, but worth it if you really want to understand how it came to this.
Yes, as most appear to be looking at and making judgements on recent events rather than the problem as a whole. A truce leading to a ceasefire leading to a more permanent peace and then sorting out the issue a-la the GFA is what is required. Removing the crazies from both sides will only be a temporary fix. Removing the crazies from one side will only be a temporary fix.
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I have been to Palestine - West Bank, I wasn't allowed into Gaza. Went with a Jewish famer, one of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met.
And the only people who attacked me in the three months I was there were Jewish zealots.
I suggest you are the one who needs to go and learn Tyke. With your vile hate preaching and total lack of understanding.
As I have said several times, this is exactly what Hamas want. You to hate Arabs/Muslims - so they then hate you.
If you don’t mind me asking Wilts, what was the purpose of your visit?
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I have been to Palestine - West Bank, I wasn't allowed into Gaza. Went with a Jewish famer, one of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met.
And the only people who attacked me in the three months I was there were Jewish zealots.
I suggest you are the one who needs to go and learn Tyke. With your vile hate preaching and total lack of understanding.
As I have said several times, this is exactly what Hamas want. You to hate Arabs/Muslims - so they then hate you.
Wow I think I've a critic , Hamas aren't capable of making me hate anyone and about the only ones preaching hate are those standing up in a number of UK mosques on a Friday afternoon currently getting investigated by the police , that's a fact by the way .
If I hated Muslims I'd have had plenty in recent history in this country to go on .
I'm educated enough to agree with Robinson's arrest today even though he was only eating his breakfast in a London pub , clearly I'm not that radicalised yet or ever will be .
I'll have my opinion and I'll be silenced by nobody .
Have you seen the video of his arrest Tyke?
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1728786564606501243?t=NC6dfVfe_vl_tYgtNtvksg&s=19
No sign of being somewhere having his breakfast
Claiming to be a reporter
Refusing to give his name
Arguing with and abusing valid reporters
Arguing with numerous police
Failed to give his address, too many people around him would hear it
What was he doing there in the 1st place apart from causing trouble?
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Perhaps he was but where is the line on someone potentially causing trouble? It's the kind of thing that gets us football fans banned from everywhere.
What's the difference between him and someone else? I'd imagine he'll have a strong legal case on his arrest and it just largely is what he wants and helps his cause. Let him speak until he does something illegal.
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How many others have followers the likes of his?
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I have been to Palestine - West Bank, I wasn't allowed into Gaza. Went with a Jewish famer, one of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met.
And the only people who attacked me in the three months I was there were Jewish zealots.
I suggest you are the one who needs to go and learn Tyke. With your vile hate preaching and total lack of understanding.
As I have said several times, this is exactly what Hamas want. You to hate Arabs/Muslims - so they then hate you.
Wow I think I've a critic , Hamas aren't capable of making me hate anyone and about the only ones preaching hate are those standing up in a number of UK mosques on a Friday afternoon currently getting investigated by the police , that's a fact by the way .
If I hated Muslims I'd have had plenty in recent history in this country to go on .
I'm educated enough to agree with Robinson's arrest today even though he was only eating his breakfast in a London pub , clearly I'm not that radicalised yet or ever will be .
I'll have my opinion and I'll be silenced by nobody .
Have you seen the video of his arrest Tyke?
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1728786564606501243?t=NC6dfVfe_vl_tYgtNtvksg&s=19
No sign of being somewhere having his breakfast
Claiming to be a reporter
Refusing to give his name
Arguing with and abusing valid reporters
Arguing with numerous police
Failed to give his address, too many people around him would hear it
What was he doing there in the 1st place apart from causing trouble?
The clip I saw was Robinson sat having his breakfast in the pub when the police came in and told him he had to leave the area instantly .
There was the usual exchange back and forth and the police officer told him he would be arrested under section so and so if he didn't leave .
To tell the truth I got bored with the back and forth after a while and didn't watch anything else .
Obviously his high profile was likely to cause problems so I don't think he's anything to complain about .
They warned him countless times but Robinson wasn't having it .
Only one winner in situations like that .
I
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I wonder if anyone here expressing sympathies with the Israeli regime might want to defend the accusations here by Save the Children? The abuses are appalling. The kind of things that may create a lot of anger and desire for revenge. Israel is the problem.
https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/content/dam/gb/reports/defenceless_impact_of_detention_on_palestinian_children.pdf
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Did anyone see that the Israeli Finance Minister, presumably someone in the inner circle of Natanyahu's psychopaths, agreed with using disease and epidemics as a weapon against Gaza people.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1726670735790518783?t=xpdNJ_rkpoxeK0kPPn3jHA&s=19
Perhaps they feel that nothing is to be ruled out in order to wipe out a group of people including gassing innocent women & inevitably children too…..much as the Nazi’s did to Jews in WW11.
Yeh the Israelis want to wipe them out so much they've just traded Palestinian terrorists in return for their own innocent civilians back for a ceasefire in a present conflict they didn't start .
"Palestinian terrorists" - I presume you have some evidence of that? I wouldn't expect you to be slinging out an extreme racist statement here.
"didn't start" - I can only follow the logic there and understand you think it's okay to murder civilians over many decades, rob them, forcibly remove them from their homes, and imprison them in a small area in Gaza, and give them a wider space in the West Bank to flee to with the proviso they accept continuous illegal expulsions from their homes, a progressive land grab by extremists that is approved by the state of Israel, and of course more murdering. That and making them second class citizens, apartheid if you like. Quite a bizarre stance of condoning abuse, even genocide, it would seem.
Talk me through the exchange in 2011 between the terrorist group that also doubles up as the Palestine government BRR .
When a single Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was captured in 2006 by the terrorist group Hamas .
Shalit was returned to his family in 2011 in exchange for 1000 Palestinian terrorists and wait for it ........... Drum Roll ..........including Yahya Sinwar the present leader of Hamas .
Now I know the Pro Palestinian support seems to have developed some kind of memory lapse , denial , maybe even the only good Jew is a dead Jew mentality concerning the events of October 7th .
The terrible loss of life in Gaza is the consequence .
There's is absolutely no way Israel is ever going to give up the state they created in 1948 given the history of the Jews before 1948 .
They will do what it takes as unpleasant as that may be .
Never again will they be displaced across Europe and beyond without a State and put themselves again in the position many were in during the 1930's and 40's , when the world left them at the mercy of the Nazis and their collaborators , try and imagine the world turning its back on you and locked inside Nazi Germany , made a non citizen , thrown out of your house , your business taken off you and your bank account seized by the Nazis and then finished off in the gas chambers by the millions .
You have to understand why the Israelis are the way they are because of that history of discrimination , persecution and the holocaust .
That does nothing to reply to what I asked.
On the issue of a safe place for Jews, Palestine wouldn't be a contender, evidently.
I don't think the world needs another failed Islamic state personally.
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You keep on coming with that racism. Though your point is messed up, clearly the consistent biggest failure in the Arab region is Israel. A Jewish state elsewhere would be better for the world including vulnerable Jews.
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You keep on coming with that racism. Though your point is messed up, clearly the consistent biggest failure in the Arab region is Israel. A Jewish state elsewhere would be better for the world including vulnerable Jews.
Well you can play the racism card all you want BRR , here's the thing , I don't care so that pretty much has me disarming you of your gun and throwing it in the skip , I don't care because I'm extremely comfortable with my posts and in my own skin .
I'd advise you to reflect on your own words and namely " the consistent biggest failure in the Arab Region is Israel " and " a Jewish state elsewhere would be better for the world " .
That could quite easily be a chapter in Mein Kampf , you'd just have to swap 1930's Germany for the Arab Region whilst remaining consistent with Hitler's views that the Jews are to blame for everything , better somewhere else would presumably be anywhere that suits your agenda just as long as it's not Israel or the Arab Region , don't concern yourself with the Arab Region BRR , the Arabs ran the Jews out of the surrounding Arab world years ago .
You are collecting quite some idols on these pages , Putin , Hamas Terrorists and now Adolf Hitler .
I'll list you the failed Islamic States , Yemen , Libya , Syria , Lebanon , Iraq and Afghanistan , you could make a case for a few more but I'll leave it at that .
The combined total number of Jews living in those countries is probably about a 100 in total , they must be the greatest Elite Soldiers and Secret Service Agents ever to exist , whilst I appreciate historically Israel generally blows it's enemies away in a few days in times of war it generally needed more than a hundred men to do it .
I pretty much doubt Palestinians are even capable of governing their own people , feeding them , housing them , providing jobs and enjoy a decent economy , it's not even capable of providing democracy , the very basic human right and the billions of dollars Gaza receives it should mirror bloody Monaco .
With the Jews out of the way in your world the area would descend in to civil war within days .
Who you going to blame then BRR ?
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"You are collecting quite some idols on these pages , Putin , Hamas Terrorists and now Adolf Hitler ."
Best leave it there then. Your comprehension has skidaddled.
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State of this discussion.
"Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
"No the Palestinians and Arabs are entirely to blame."
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State of this discussion.
"Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
"No the Palestinians and Arabs are entirely to blame."
Not sure how you can blame the Palestinians and Arabs but not the Israelis ?
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State of this discussion.
"Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
"No the Palestinians and Arabs are entirely to blame."
It's about the solution not the blame for the past. Within that, one side has to step back from it's ego inflated current demands. The current situation with Israel having nearly all the land and occupying what isn't its land, and with many people there wanting even more land, has to be changed. The land should be divided 50/50. Israel, the US and the UK won't allow that. So the war continues. Jews will feel unsafe, massacres will happen again.
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State of this discussion.
"Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
"No the Palestinians and Arabs are entirely to blame."
It's about the solution not the blame for the past. Within that, one side has to step back from it's ego inflated current demands. The current situation with Israel having nearly all the land and occupying what isn't its land, and with many people there wanting even more land, has to be changed. The land should be divided 50/50. Israel, the US and the UK won't allow that. So the war continues. Jews will feel unsafe, massacres will happen again.
First time i've ever agreed with a post of yours,
Im off out the back to give myself a good talking to.!
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Let me interpret that post of BRR's.
"No BST, you're being too simplistic. The issue is that Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
I think that sums it up.
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Let me interpret that post of BRR's.
"No BST, you're being too simplistic. The issue is that Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
I think that sums it up.
This is an example of why there will never be a compromise between both sides .
Bill Clinton got then Israeli PM Ehud Barak and Arafat to a summit at Camp David in 2000 .
After several days of nobody giving an inch Clinton lost his rag with Barak and told him to up his game or that's it I'm done with it .
Unbelievably Barak offered to give up East Jerusalem and some really sacred Islamic sites but they were to be equal custodians over Temple Mount which apparently contains sacred sites to both faiths .
In the Israeli parliament Barak was torn a new one from the majority of the entire parliament , just about cost him the election in 2001 which Sheron won .
Arafat turned it down flat , Jerusalem back in its entirety , end of .
Arafat said if he'd signed a deal with the Israelis that didn't get all of Jerusalem back he'd be assassinated .
You've no chance of finding a peaceful settlement .
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State of this discussion.
"Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
"No the Palestinians and Arabs are entirely to blame."
Not sure how you can blame the Palestinians and Arabs but not the Israelis ?
Read it again DD, he's not blaming anyone but is commenting on the simplistic positions of posters on here blaming one side only. Besides, BST does include Isreal in his post.
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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/israel-obtained-hamas-plans-for-oct-7-attack-more-than-a-year-before/ar-AA1kPtj7?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=ACTS&cvid=2950a28bdf40415aac1f7ed0c466fca3&ei=26
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Let me interpret that post of BRR's.
"No BST, you're being too simplistic. The issue is that Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
I think that sums it up.
This is an example of why there will never be a compromise between both sides .
Bill Clinton got then Israeli PM Ehud Barak and Arafat to a summit at Camp David in 2000 .
After several days of nobody giving an inch Clinton lost his rag with Barak and told him to up his game or that's it I'm done with it .
Unbelievably Barak offered to give up East Jerusalem and some really sacred Islamic sites but they were to be equal custodians over Temple Mount which apparently contains sacred sites to both faiths .
In the Israeli parliament Barak was torn a new one from the majority of the entire parliament , just about cost him the election in 2001 which Sheron won .
Arafat turned it down flat , Jerusalem back in its entirety , end of .
Arafat said if he'd signed a deal with the Israelis that didn't get all of Jerusalem back he'd be assassinated .
You've no chance of finding a peaceful settlement .
What are you citing as proof to support this tyke?
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Let me interpret that post of BRR's.
"No BST, you're being too simplistic. The issue is that Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
I think that sums it up.
This is an example of why there will never be a compromise between both sides .
Bill Clinton got then Israeli PM Ehud Barak and Arafat to a summit at Camp David in 2000 .
After several days of nobody giving an inch Clinton lost his rag with Barak and told him to up his game or that's it I'm done with it .
Unbelievably Barak offered to give up East Jerusalem and some really sacred Islamic sites but they were to be equal custodians over Temple Mount which apparently contains sacred sites to both faiths .
In the Israeli parliament Barak was torn a new one from the majority of the entire parliament , just about cost him the election in 2001 which Sheron won .
Arafat turned it down flat , Jerusalem back in its entirety , end of .
Arafat said if he'd signed a deal with the Israelis that didn't get all of Jerusalem back he'd be assassinated .
You've no chance of finding a peaceful settlement .
What are you citing as proof to support this tyke?
Come on Sid we all know you have had that transplant so "jump to it"
but are you saying you missed this
it's all in there
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=289450.0
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just love the clh and tyke potted histories of the world is all
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Sending unwanted personal messages is harassment clh
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Let me interpret that post of BRR's.
"No BST, you're being too simplistic. The issue is that Israel, Britain and America are entirely to blame."
I think that sums it up.
This is an example of why there will never be a compromise between both sides .
Bill Clinton got then Israeli PM Ehud Barak and Arafat to a summit at Camp David in 2000 .
After several days of nobody giving an inch Clinton lost his rag with Barak and told him to up his game or that's it I'm done with it .
Unbelievably Barak offered to give up East Jerusalem and some really sacred Islamic sites but they were to be equal custodians over Temple Mount which apparently contains sacred sites to both faiths .
In the Israeli parliament Barak was torn a new one from the majority of the entire parliament , just about cost him the election in 2001 which Sheron won .
Arafat turned it down flat , Jerusalem back in its entirety , end of .
Arafat said if he'd signed a deal with the Israelis that didn't get all of Jerusalem back he'd be assassinated .
You've no chance of finding a peaceful settlement .
What are you citing as proof to support this tyke?
Other than listening to what all the players who were at that summit in 2000 at Camp David including the advisors on a BBC documentary which is available on the BBC iPlayer hardly anything Syd .
Perhaps The Guardian should have an iPlayer Syd then you could spend even more time watching content you agree with .
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As I said I love your potted world histories (and should have added) your opinions.
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Sydney, my boomerang won’t come back. Any thoughts?
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Sydney, my boomerang won’t come back. Any thoughts?
take the y-fronts off your head
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The woke univerisities in the USA showing their true colours. Actual quote on whether calling for the genocide of Jews is deemed bullying and harassment ..."if the speech becomes conduct it could be deemed harassment " :headbang:
Replace the word Jew with Black or Trans and see if they'd still spreak like this. You have to watch this example of the disgusting hypoctrical extremes that wokeness will go to
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6GVU2JvZJA
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1 in 5 young Americans think the holocaust was a myth
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-think-the-holocaust-is-a-myth?utm_medium=social-media.content.np&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_content=discovery.content
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The woke univerisities in the USA showing their true colours. Actual quote on whether calling for the genocide of Jews is deemed bullying and harassment ..."if the speech becomes conduct it could be deemed harassment " :headbang:
Replace the word Jew with Black or Trans and see if they'd still spreak like this. You have to watch this example of the disgusting hypoctrical extremes that wokeness will go to
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6GVU2JvZJA
On the face of it, that's appalling. I suspect there are specific cases involved, and already the questioner referred to using "intifada" as an illustration of calling for genocide. Intifada means uprising, not genocide. Pro Israeli people intentionally conflate this, as well as broadening the definition of AS, as has been the case in the UK, notably with Labour. That weaponising and conflating is an own goal.
So... it could well be the mention of context in the uni reps is related to this. It could also be that Jewish students are substatially suing the universities, so the uni reps are bound to protect the uni funds?
Sure defending calls for genocide is mental, as is Israeli condemnation of the UN for AS in calling for a ceasefire.
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The woke univerisities in the USA showing their true colours. Actual quote on whether calling for the genocide of Jews is deemed bullying and harassment ..."if the speech becomes conduct it could be deemed harassment " :headbang:
Replace the word Jew with Black or Trans and see if they'd still spreak like this. You have to watch this example of the disgusting hypoctrical extremes that wokeness will go to
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6GVU2JvZJA
On the face of it, that's appalling. I suspect there are specific cases involved, and already the questioner referred to using "intifada" as an illustration of calling for genocide. Intifada means uprising, not genocide. Pro Israeli people intentionally conflate this, as well as broadening the definition of AS, as has been the case in the UK, notably with Labour. That weaponising and conflating is an own goal.
So... it could well be the mention of context in the uni reps is related to this. It could also be that Jewish students are substatially suing the universities, so the uni reps are bound to protect the uni funds?
Sure defending calls for genocide is mental, as is Israeli condemnation of the UN for AS in calling for a ceasefire.
So if the " intifada " is the breaking of the eggs , what's the omelette going to look like ?
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Tyke,, weird reply. I'm sure you'd be the one passively accepting your lot. Vote Starmer.
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I think the first take looked perfectly good enough for most folk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TolTWCeyjf8
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Tyke,, weird reply. I'm sure you'd be the one passively accepting your lot. Vote Starmer.
It's not really a weird reply in the sense of what each side is trying to achieve .
Palestinians want to wipe out the Jews and the Jews want to inflict as much carnage , suffering and destruction on the Palestinians so they stop trying to wipe them out and with it retain the state of Israel .
Without wanting to sound cold hearted and without emotion there's nothing going on over there that doesn't happen in any major conflict .
Wars are horrible , atrocities take place and innocent people die , just like they did in Dresden and Hamburg during WW2 courtesy of the RAF .
There really isn't any rules .
I once watched a documentary on the Falklands War , interviews and recollections of what actually happened by the soldiers who actually did the killing .
It shocked me at the time , Argentinean soldiers even with their hands held up were shot in the head .
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
I'm no fan of any organised religion. But the two biggest mass murderers in history, Stalin and Mao, were driven by (or enabled by) non-religious ideologies.
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It’s nothing to do with religion.
The ‘Irish Problems’, what happened in the Baltic States, what’s happening now in Gaza, it’s about tribalism.
March or walk or wave behind any banner from the Ottomans & beyond to Ukrain & it’s about ‘grabbing’ land or territory, whether that be in the Middle East, Europe or football grounds in those goddam awful 70/80’s.
Religion is neither the answer or the problem.
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I doubt religion is the biggest factor in the current genocide in Gaza. The land, and the marine gas fields just offshore seems more likely.
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A very interesting interview with former Israeli advisor Daniel Levy;
https://youtu.be/3a6O-ZeW5zQ
A deeper dive into the behind the scenes assessments going off, both in the past and in the current conflict.
Recommended!
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I doubt religion is the biggest factor in the current genocide in Gaza. The land, and the marine gas fields just offshore seems more likely.
Does the population data over time for Gaza show genocide?
(This is not me denying poor living conditions or civilian casualties but genocide is obvious a very serious term and not to be used lightly).
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It’s nothing to do with religion.
The ‘Irish Problems’, what happened in the Baltic States, what’s happening now in Gaza, it’s about tribalism.
March or walk or wave behind any banner from the Ottomans & beyond to Ukrain & it’s about ‘grabbing’ land or territory, whether that be in the Middle East, Europe or football grounds in those goddam awful 70/80’s.
Religion is neither the answer or the problem.
Isn't religion the reason for 2 football teams in some cities?
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I doubt religion is the biggest factor in the current genocide in Gaza. The land, and the marine gas fields just offshore seems more likely.
Does the population data over time for Gaza show genocide?
(This is not me denying poor living conditions or civilian casualties but genocide is obvious a very serious term and not to be used lightly).
Yes, genocide is an extreme term. How many more thousands of Palestinians dead do you personally need to count it as genocide, on top of an explicit policy that involves killing until Hamas are completely gone?
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I doubt religion is the biggest factor in the current genocide in Gaza. The land, and the marine gas fields just offshore seems more likely.
Does the population data over time for Gaza show genocide?
(This is not me denying poor living conditions or civilian casualties but genocide is obvious a very serious term and not to be used lightly).
Genocide is a complex term. Just because the population of Gaza has grown since 1948 (as a result of the expansion of settlements forcing more families into a smaller area, and extreme poverty in Gaza meaning families need to have multiple children, as a single salary isn't enough to live on) that doesn't disprove the intent to wipe out the Palestinian identity now.
And if you can look at the indiscriminate bombing of cultural landmarks, mosques, churches, schools, hospitals, bakeries etc, the expansion of violent settlers given the full backing of the Israeli state, and say there isn't genocidal intent there, then nothing will ever meet the bar of genocide for you. Palestinian culture and identity is being deliberately incinerated - it's not just about the body count in this conflict, as horrific as that is.
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
I'm no fan of any organised religion. But the two biggest mass murderers in history, Stalin and Mao, were driven by (or enabled by) non-religious ideologies.
Well said, BST; and you can add Pol Pot to those as well.
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
I wonder where the human race would be after following hundreds of thousands of years of nihilism? And what a civilisation built on no “ideal values” would look like. Perhaps we’d have just woken up one day and decided what was “good” and how we came in to being.
No one can make such a comment unless they have all the answers.
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
I'm sure the starving millions all over the world that religious charities have given aid to over the years would not agree with your statement.
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
Humans are by far the worst thing in human history.
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Religion is by far the worst thing in human history
I'm sure the starving millions all over the world that religious charities have given aid to over the years would not agree with your statement.
People can be good, bad or otherwise, I shouldn't think that religion comes into it.
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The worst thing about these bastions of education in the US, the 'tolerant, everyone is safe and equal' lefty institutions is they'll have a "safe space" for you to run to if you're offended, for exmaple by someone saying science dictates there's only 2 genders or similar because "words are violence" after all, yet their heads will spout the nasty dross that these 3 heads did.
These institutions also have black and Hispanic only dorms and graduations. Rosa Parks would be proud
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Loony Israeli diplomat to the UK lets the cat out of the bag, no 2 state solution as far as Israel stands;
https://nitter.net/SkyNews/status/1734982762208113039#m
This woman is a complete headbanger, but at least she admits that the Israeli position is not what western Liberals like to pretend it is.
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It's not news that there are powerful elements in Israel with the same 'end game' on their agenda as hamas, maybe hamas should stop advertising the fact to gain similar support.
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The power track from Israel to the US,, Canada, Germany, UK, etc etc means that. the state of Israel will always get its way, Palestinian tactics don't come into it. Zionists have their fingers in the relevant pies, indeed they bake most of them. Sadly they act out the trope, mirror the Nazis, are just so twisted, yet have power.
Israeli figures, one's in power, talk freely about racial cleansing. They conduct genocide. They rule an apartheid state. If you were Palestinian, what would you do?
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Syd,
It is the first time Israel have admitted their position in English, for an international audience.
In Hebrew they regularly set out the intention to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank to pave the way to a greater Israel, from the river to the sea.
The ruling Likud Party include this in their constitution.
There are no political parties in Israel with a chance of election who support a 2 state solution...this is just a smokescreen for western liberal opinion management.
When you hear it repeated by political interests in the west, they know it is not on the agenda.
If you think that there is some equivalence between the position of Hamas, and that of the Israeli government, then you have not understood the history of the conflict.
Hamas are responding to the fact of occupation by a hostile force, armed with US munitions such as white phosphorus, and supplied via UK facilities in Cyprus.
While October 7 was clearly an outrage, the causes of the conflict have been playing out in the occupied territories for many years.
See the video interview with Daniel Levy I posted above (in 732) for more detail.
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Syd,
It is the first time Israel have admitted their position in English, for an international audience.
In Hebrew they regularly set out the intention to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank to pave the way to a greater Israel, from the river to the sea.
The ruling Likud Party include this in their constitution.
There are no political parties in Israel with a chance of election who support a 2 state solution...this is just a smokescreen for western liberal opinion management.
When you hear it repeated by political interests in the west, they know it is not on the agenda.
If you think that there is some equivalence between the position of Hamas, and that of the Israeli government, then you have not understood the history of the conflict.
Hamas are responding to the fact of occupation by a hostile force, armed with US munitions such as white phosphorus, and supplied via UK facilities in Cyprus.
While October 7 was clearly an outrage, the causes of the conflict have been playing out in the occupied territories for many years.
See the video interview with Daniel Levy I posted above (in 732) for more detail.
Are you saying that the US supplied Hamas with white phosphorus munitions & if so where’s your source?
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Hamas are responding to the fact of occupation by a hostile force, armed with US munitions such as white phosphorus, and supplied via UK facilities in Cyprus.
Israel used it, not Hamas.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
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In the 70s, historian Max Hastings interviewed Benjamin Netanyahu extensively, after the the Netanyahu family recruited him to write an official biography of Bibi's brother Yoni. Here Hastings, in his memoirs, recalls Benjamin's (aka Bibi) racism and enthusiasm for total ethnic cleansing:
At Bibi Netanyahu's dinner table in Jerusalem, I listened with crawling dismay to Bibi talking about the future of his country. In the next war, if we do it right we'll have a chance to get all the Arabs out,' he said. "We can clear the West Bank, sort out Jerusalem.' He joked about the Golani Brigade, the Israeli infantry force in which so many men were North African or Yemenite Jews. "They're okay as long as they're led by white officers.' He grinned.
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More from Max Hastings from 2009. Balanced, simple, and inciteful.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/09/israel-middle-east-max-hastings
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Just in case anyone missed this, the Israeli ambassador to the UK expressed very definitively in an interview, in English, that there will not be a 2 state solution.
This is contrary to what the UK Tories and Labour and others are supposedly behind and are using as their backing for Israel's actions now and in the past, even if that has always been tenuous. This isn't new, it is said in Hebrew all the time whilst deliberately trying to avoid saying it in English.
You can only imagine what is said by Israeli officials and leaders behind closed doors.
Evidence here in just the first 2 mins of this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318taPzYcsM
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Just in case anyone missed this, the Israeli ambassador to the UK expressed very definitively in an interview, in English, that there will not be a 2 state solution.
This is contrary to what the UK Tories and Labour and others are supposedly behind and are using as their backing for Israel's actions now and in the past, even if that has always been tenuous. This isn't new, it is said in Hebrew all the time whilst deliberately trying to avoid saying it in English.
You can only imagine what is said by Israeli officials and leaders behind closed doors.
Evidence here in just the first 2 mins of this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318taPzYcsM
[/quoteThe Palestinian people are of the same opinion!
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ColinC No3,
The use of white phosphorus was reported in the Washington Post;
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/13/white-phosphorus-chemical-what-is/
Verified by a host of human rights organisations, including Amnesty.
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Just in case anyone missed this, the Israeli ambassador to the UK expressed very definitively in an interview, in English, that there will not be a 2 state solution.
This is contrary to what the UK Tories and Labour and others are supposedly behind and are using as their backing for Israel's actions now and in the past, even if that has always been tenuous. This isn't new, it is said in Hebrew all the time whilst deliberately trying to avoid saying it in English.
You can only imagine what is said by Israeli officials and leaders behind closed doors.
Evidence here in just the first 2 mins of this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318taPzYcsM
The Palestinian people are of the same opinion!
After being the target of this genocide, would you blame them for not wanting an Israeli state? I wouldn't. And given the occupying force is explicitly against it, why would Palestinians trust a 2 state solution to be created, onethat would inevitably include all the extremist Israelis in their stolen enclaves in the West Bank.
As the occupying apartheid force, it is up to the Israelis to give confidence, to concede that whole west Bank, to allow Palestine to be a full state. They won't even go with the watered down version. Evil.
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More from Max Hastings from 2009. Balanced, simple, and inciteful.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/09/israel-middle-east-max-hastings
This article from MH from 2009 reflects my own views as they changed and developed from the 1960s.
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I don't read the Guardian and I don't watch the BBC news, what I did watch yesterday on France 24 was a report on the Hamas attack at the start of hostilities citing the cutting off of women' s breasts throwing them and kicking them about, after raping them and shoving metal objects in their genitals, and the beheading of babies, all recorded on phones, glorifying in it.
Well to me they started something they can't finish, either side, but from the first moments some were willing to act like animals, so what did they expect the response to be?
The stated response was to turn Gaza into rubble, they are doing it and will not stop, the red line was crossed in the first few moments of the hostilities, one side started the total war, and are paying the price.
If that programme were broadcast on the BBC some opinions would change I am sure of it, when you act like animals don't shout blue murder when the price has to be paid.
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I don't read the Guardian and I don't watch the BBC news, what I did watch yesterday on France 24 was a report on the Hamas attack at the start of hostilities citing the cutting off of women' s breasts throwing them and kicking them about, after raping them and shoving metal objects in their genitals, and the beheading of babies, all recorded on phones, glorifying in it.
Well to me they started something they can't finish, either side, but from the first moments some were willing to act like animals, so what did they expect the response to be?
The stated response was to turn Gaza into rubble, they are doing it and will not stop, the red line was crossed in the first few moments of the hostilities, one side started the total war, and are paying the price.
If that programme were broadcast on the BBC some opinions would change I am sure of it, when you act like animals don't shout blue murder when the price has to be paid.
Have you seen the vids of beheading, cutting of breasts? I suspect not. Have you any links to them? Who do you know who have seen them?
Either way, such things would be horrendous. The decades of Israeli abuse you consider fine? And nothing to to do with the current situation? You thinking it all started on Oct 7th is shockingly shallow and naive, even if you are just caught in the wake of Zionist propaganda.
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The ICC should be able to investigate war crimes committed in states that are party to (members) of the International Criminal Court.
It is interesting to note who are members and who are not.
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Just in case anyone missed this, the Israeli ambassador to the UK expressed very definitively in an interview, in English, that there will not be a 2 state solution.
This is contrary to what the UK Tories and Labour and others are supposedly behind and are using as their backing for Israel's actions now and in the past, even if that has always been tenuous. This isn't new, it is said in Hebrew all the time whilst deliberately trying to avoid saying it in English.
You can only imagine what is said by Israeli officials and leaders behind closed doors.
Evidence here in just the first 2 mins of this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318taPzYcsM
The Palestinian people are of the same opinion!
After being the target of this genocide, would you blame them for not wanting an Israeli state? I wouldn't. And given the occupying force is explicitly against it, why would Palestinians trust a 2 state solution to be created, onethat would inevitably include all the extremist Israelis in their stolen enclaves in the West Bank.
As the occupying apartheid force, it is up to the Israelis to give confidence, to concede that whole west Bank, to allow Palestine to be a full state. They won't even go with the watered down version. Evil.
The Palestinians rejected a 2 state solution when it could have been perfectly peaceful in times gone by.
They shoot themselves in the foot, lose then blame Israel. And you believe every line of the “poor us” propaganda.
The Israeli ambassador believing in an Israeli 1 state solution is just as bad as calling for a ceasefire to allow Hamas to regroup and pursue their aim of their one state solution. But 2 wrongs don’t make a right. If Israel pursue this as their official position you will see world leaders become critical and consider withdrawing support. Then you will maybe realise this isn’t all a Zionist conspiracy.
David Cameron called out settler violence on the West Bank the other day.
https://x.com/david_cameron/status/1735240073505800334?s=46
As well as the Iranian state that stokes the fire in the region. Which I don’t think you’ve criticised once. Or the way they treat their citizens (specifically women).
https://x.com/david_cameron/status/1735301188986323355?s=46
You still haven’t given me an explanation of how Israel is more religiously diverse than Palestine in a way that suits your narrative either.
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BRR, yes it is not the BBC, they showed the actual part recordings off their phones with the usual smudged atrocities as no TV company would broadcast such animal behaviour, but the gist of the content was clear to see, they set out to shock and terrify, they were brutal scenes the worst blanked out.
Try to open your mind and watch other coverage, Israel will not forgive what happened it was not human, it was as bad as it gets, and beyond the thinking of any sane human being.
They are going to flatten the place, and trace all the participants, they are dead men walking.
If you keep watching and listening to the gumf tossed out by the BBC you will have a very narrow view.
If you watch the NDtv,TRT,etc. and Channel 24 the best weekly programmes on the war in Ukraine you might realise the gumf that is tossed out over here and learn something, the average Nigerian will have a broader understanding of that from both sides than the average Joe walking about the UK. I know you have a vested interest in that subject.
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On this thread some people are confusing Hamas activists and Palestinian civilians....they are quite different!
I can see why this happens, because the media coverage has failed to make it clear when actions said to be targeting Hamas clearly impact civilian non combatants.
This is deliberate on the part of Israel, because they need to pretend that carpet bombing and ethnic cleansing are required to remove a military opponent.
Using this cover they can follow their real agenda of displacing the civilian population and making the illegally occupied territories unviable.
In what other context could you expect to get away with murdering children and unarmed civilians in large numbers, while preventing food and sanitation to survivors creating a major disease hazard?
Israel are doing this despite it clearly being in contravention of International law and the Genocide Convention.
Netenyahu wants his final act as leader to be the removal of displaced Palestinian civilians into the Egyptian Sinai desert.
He is secure in the knowledge he has protection from his western backers, who themselves are guilty of war crimes by supplying his regime with arms and logistical support.
They cannot indict Bibi without implicating themselves as complicit in his crimes.
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On this thread some people are confusing Hamas activists and Palestinian civilians....they are quite different!
I can see why this happens, because the media coverage has failed to make it clear when actions said to be targeting Hamas clearly impact civilian non combatants.
This is deliberate on the part of Israel, because they need to pretend that carpet bombing and ethnic cleansing are required to remove a military opponent.
Using this cover they can follow their real agenda of displacing the civilian population and making the illegally occupied territories unviable.
In what other context could you expect to get away with murdering children and unarmed civilians in large numbers, while preventing food and sanitation to survivors creating a major disease hazard?
Israel are doing this despite it clearly being in contravention of International law and the Genocide Convention.
Netenyahu wants his final act as leader to be the removal of displaced Palestinian civilians into the Egyptian Sinai desert.
He is secure in the knowledge he has protection from his western backers, who themselves are guilty of war crimes by supplying his regime with arms and logistical support.
They cannot indict Bibi without implicating themselves as complicit in his crimes.
‘Carpet Bombing’ ?
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There is a report that a terrorist attack in Denmark and Germany linked to Hamas has been foiled and arrests have been made and arms from a cash in Europe seized.
The stab in the back is basically all they do well, and are looking to export their expertise in that field throughout Europe to spread terror among innocent people.
They are the worst case of racial hate people in the world, extremist's who just do not accept other religions or way of thinking. and will attack innocent people in the name of their God in this country.
If they start to commit their atrocities here in the UK, Europe, and the USA it will be interesting to see the opinions on here. I for one expect it to happen, and if it does, well, we can always go on a march of support I suppose. Who for will be the question.
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Sadly, carpet bombing is accurate Sproty.
Reported as such in the Irish Times here;
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/12/06/israels-gaza-attack-one-of-historys-heaviest-conventional-bombing-campaigns/
Video footage of the level of destruction is devastating.
Many buildings that still stand will need to be demolished, as they are now unsafe.
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A connected but at a tangent question
Does anybody think the Israeli Ambassador to the UK is , shall I say , somewhat of an opinionated person
Others may have said bigoted gobby cow but I'm the self appointed Switzerland of the Forum
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On this thread some people are confusing Hamas activists and Palestinian civilians....they are quite different!
@ianbremmer
after the october 7 terrorist attacks and the last two months of israel war against hamas, how do palestinians feel about october 7?
agree with oct 7 attacks:
82% of palestinians in west bank
57% in gaza
72% overall
disagree:
12% of palestinians in west bank
37% in gaza
22% overall
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There is a report that a terrorist attack in Denmark and Germany linked to Hamas has been foiled and arrests have been made and arms from a cash in Europe seized.
The stab in the back is basically all they do well, and are looking to export their expertise in that field throughout Europe to spread terror among innocent people.
They are the worst case of racial hate people in the world, extremist's who just do not accept other religions or way of thinking. and will attack innocent people in the name of their God in this country.
If they start to commit their atrocities here in the UK, Europe, and the USA it will be interesting to see the opinions on here. I for one expect it to happen, and if it does, well, we can always go on a march of support I suppose. Who for will be the question.
The plots were allegedly to attack Jewish sites in Europe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67715120
But BRR told me I’ve fallen for propaganda to believe Hamas want death to the Jews. Hmm
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So this is a massive bombshell because it’s the first time the Israeli policy has been articulated in English, to the Western press?
But they have said it many times to the Jewish press in Hebrew?
Can’t anyone translate Hebrew like?
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In front of the eyes if the world
''An estimated 5,500 children have been killed in the Gaza Strip since October 7, according to Gaza’s government media office, amid widespread airstrikes by the Israeli military. Hundreds more are reported missing and may be trapped under the rubble. Since October 7, one child in Gaza has been killed every 10 minutes on average''
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/israel/gaza-hostilities-take-horrific-toll-children
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The fascist IDF supporters have yet to offer an alternative solution to the Arab-Palestine/Israel issue other than Israel should wipe out/annihilate Gaza.
And if Israel continue to attempt to annihilate Gaza - what do you think Hamas fighters/supporters will do in the rest of the world?
You claim to be aiming for peace - whilst creating barbaric murderers and setting them loose on the rest of us.
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''AT LEAST 101 CHILDREN KILLED IN THE WEST BANK THIS YEAR''
''RAMALLAH, 30 November 2023 – An eight-year-old boy shot dead in the street is one of the most recent casualties of violence in the occupied West Bank, with at least 101 Palestinian children reported killed in the West Bank this year, said Save the Children.
Since the attacks in Israel on 7 October, Israeli soldiers or settlers have killed at least 63 children in the West Bank, according to the UN, averaging more than one child a day—significantly more fatalities than in the first nine months of the already deadliest year. During this same period, the UN has reported that some 143 families, including 388 children, have been displaced from their homes in the West Bank due to settler violence and access restrictions''
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/least-101-children-killed-west-bank-year
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Syd, there is no wonder the kids are everywhere the other thing they do well apart from stabbing in the back is breed, the population of Gaza has doubled in ten years, some going that when you are supposed to be starved of everything.
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Syd, there is no wonder the kids are everywhere the other thing they do well apart from stabbing in the back is breed, the population of Gaza has doubled in ten years, some going that when you are supposed to be starved of everything.
this is one of your most stupid posts selby, and there are plenty to choose from
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Syd, there is no wonder the kids are everywhere the other thing they do well apart from stabbing in the back is breed, the population of Gaza has doubled in ten years, some going that when you are supposed to be starved of everything.
this is one of your most stupid posts selby, and there are plenty to choose from
May be Hamas stole all of their TV to make missiles?
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Sadly, carpet bombing is accurate Sproty.
Reported as such in the Irish Times here;
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/12/06/israels-gaza-attack-one-of-historys-heaviest-conventional-bombing-campaigns/
Video footage of the level of destruction is devastating.
Many buildings that still stand will need to be demolished, as they are now unsafe.
Are you comparing the targeted bombing of sites in Gaza to this?
The bombing of Dresden was a joint British and American aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, during World War II. In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 772 heavy bombers of the Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[2] The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed more than 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre.[3] Up to 25,000 people were killed.[1][a] Three more USAAF air raids followed, two occurring on 2 March aimed at the city's railway marshalling yard and one smaller raid on 17 April aimed at industrial areas.
Carpet bombing is the indiscriminate bombing of a marked out area usuallig circa 1 square Kilometre over a very short period by a very large number of Bombers 500 up to 1,000. So a WW2 allied bombing raid would involve 8,000 tons of Bombs dropped on the target in a single raid!
When have the IDF done that?
They do have circa 550 Aircraft and coul probably drop 5,000 tons in one go which would creat a Firestorm and kill every living being in the targets Area.
To be honest The Palestinians have suffered a tiny fraction of the deaths they could have done, and how many of the dead are women and children.
You have to take the Palestinian data with a pinch of salt.
Plus the Palestinians have fired 12,500 poor quality rockets at Israel some 2,000 have detonated in mid air over Gaza or misfired and crashed onto built up areas in Gaza.
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Sproty,
It is not about what you or I think, as we are not there.
The observations by outside interests like NGO's support the evidence of the use of excessive untargetted force against a civilian population.
Carpet bombing, also known as saturation bombing, is a large area indiscriminate bombardment done in a progressive manner to inflict damage by dropping many unguided bombs.
It is a war crime under Article 51 of Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.
If you read the Irish Times article (originally in the FT), it includes this:
"Israeli jets have also dropped unguided M117 “dumb bombs”, as first used by US forces during the Korean and Vietnam wars. In addition, Israel has used earth-shaking 2,000lb GBU-31 bombs, which are four times bigger than the 500lb bombs that were typically the largest ordinance used by allied forces in the battle for the Iraqi city of Mosul, military analysts said."
Use of this type of weaponry is more comparable with these later conflicts.
l
It is impossible to argue that these munitions are anything other than broad spectrum armaments that destroy buildings over a wide area.
This is in addition to use of white phosphorus in this conflict.
Israel say that they are out to eradicate Hamas, but all the children maimed by these assaults will be driven to oppose Israel in the future.
For every Hamas operative they hit, they are killing many innocent civilians, and recruiting tenfold opposition across the Arab world.
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The Israeli military thinking is that the war is going much easier than they originally thought it would Syd and are determined to go on and finish their job whatever outside influences think.
Which will no doubt give you another month or so to nash your teeth and get het up, knowing that they are not at all bothered about anybody else's stance on the subject.
They are fixed on going for their own end game Syd, get used to it, collateral damage will happen probably on a bigger scale as both sides are engaged in total war with no feelings whatsoever for the enemy and all the huffing and puffing by the outsiders looking in, probably thinking only of how the war is effecting their economy and nice little earners in this case will make no difference at all as Israel are now fighting for their very existence again.
They know that if they do not come up with some sort of victory they will be in a position that will be eaten away piece by piece over time, with the woe is me game played on the world stage time after time against them, they are going for an end game buddy.
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Syd, there is no wonder the kids are everywhere the other thing they do well apart from stabbing in the back is breed, the population of Gaza has doubled in ten years, some going that when you are supposed to be starved of everything.
You frequently talk of someone you call Stabber Starmer and now you talk about Stabbing Palestinians. Do you have a knife fetish Selby?
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So this is a massive bombshell because it’s the first time the Israeli policy has been articulated in English, to the Western press?
But they have said it many times to the Jewish press in Hebrew?
Can’t anyone translate Hebrew like?
There's a difference between hearing it out of the horses mouth and subtitles.
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No Kato, recognise them who do the dirty side of things. Nearest I get is the butter knife.
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The Israeli military thinking is that the war is going much easier than they originally thought it would Syd and are determined to go on and finish their job whatever outside influences think.
Which will no doubt give you another month or so to nash your teeth and get het up, knowing that they are not at all bothered about anybody else's stance on the subject.
They are fixed on going for their own end game Syd, get used to it, collateral damage will happen probably on a bigger scale as both sides are engaged in total war with no feelings whatsoever for the enemy and all the huffing and puffing by the outsiders looking in, probably thinking only of how the war is effecting their economy and nice little earners in this case will make no difference at all as Israel are now fighting for their very existence again.
They know that if they do not come up with some sort of victory they will be in a position that will be eaten away piece by piece over time, with the woe is me game played on the world stage time after time against them, they are going for an end game buddy.
I mostly agree, though there won't be an end game. They've just created thousands of more passionate Palestinian warriors, many with little or nothing to lose.
Overall the hatred to Israel is undoubtedly increased. Attacks within Israel will continue, but worse is that being "strong" in Israel, the targets worldwide will be hit, which means both Zionist Jews and anti Zionist Jews all over are in greater danger.
Far from the last chapter in this horror story.
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Syd, there is no wonder the kids are everywhere the other thing they do well apart from stabbing in the back is breed, the population of Gaza has doubled in ten years, some going that when you are supposed to be starved of everything.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67738111
Shocking how this tale describes the IDF tactics, ones that have only come to light due to it being a tragic own goal. How many Palestinians were shot whilst surrendering? How many other pure innocents are being shot? Why doesn't the BBC ask these questions?
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BRR, what would you have done in those soldiers places, your scared stiff, everyone around you hates your guts, it's total war, they hate you with a passion, your feelings to them are the same.
Three fit young men of military age come towards you with white flags, but, the enemy are fanatical and have been known to use suicide vests as a weapon and are ready to die for the cause whatever it is and have been brought up to hate.
All these things are going through your mind at a thousand miles an hour, everything is noisy and there is wreckage of buildings all around and rubble.
They wouldn't have got within fifty yards of me mate sorry to say. This is not just war simple two sides with lines drawn on a map. It is total war hate and no respect on both sides with no battle lines drawn everywhere and everyone is a target.
And you and I are a target, if we had been on that bridge in London, or Syd in that theatre in Paris, you would have been a target as their hate has been preached to them in this country and every other country that you and I and every unbeliever of their religion is an enemy, simple as that and even more so the Jews, and as one half of my family were Russian Jews escaping tyranny my sympathies lie on that side even though that was a long time ago.
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If the rules of engagement are as you describe, that is in itself a war crime.
The Jews who were killed there were murdered. As are the Palestinians. Thousands of them. Innocent human beings.
Shocking that you use the poor tortured Jew story to justify inhumanity and terrorism. Own goal, big time.
Also notable you suggest the Palestinians have been brainwashed, preached to. Nothing of decades of first hand experience matters then? Similar experience to what you say your relatives experienced.
Seeing the contradictions?
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And here comes Bristol Red Rover making out he's bothered about aggressor countries committing war crimes.
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And here comes Bristol Red Rover making out he's bothered about aggressor countries committing war crimes.
Are you trying to make a point about Israel? No. Fail. Off topic.
Ukraine/Usa/Nato/Eu/Uk v Russia - who was the aggressor? You think it's Russia who went over the Ukraine border. I guess in Israel you see it as Hamas who went over the border. There is stuff that happened in bucketfuls before both of these incidents. Did you miss that?
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BRR, what would you have done in those soldiers places, your scared stiff, everyone around you hates your guts, it's total war, they hate you with a passion, your feelings to them are the same.
Three fit young men of military age come towards you with white flags, but, the enemy are fanatical and have been known to use suicide vests as a weapon and are ready to die for the cause whatever it is and have been brought up to hate.
All these things are going through your mind at a thousand miles an hour, everything is noisy and there is wreckage of buildings all around and rubble.
They wouldn't have got within fifty yards of me mate sorry to say. This is not just war simple two sides with lines drawn on a map. It is total war hate and no respect on both sides with no battle lines drawn everywhere and everyone is a target.
And you and I are a target, if we had been on that bridge in London, or Syd in that theatre in Paris, you would have been a target as their hate has been preached to them in this country and every other country that you and I and every unbeliever of their religion is an enemy, simple as that and even more so the Jews, and as one half of my family were Russian Jews escaping tyranny my sympathies lie on that side even though that was a long time ago.
It is just not credible to believe that the IDF make so many 'mistakes'
''As of December 17, CPJ’s preliminary investigations showed at least 64 journalists and media workers were among the more than 19,000 killed since the war began on October 7—with some 18,000 Palestinian deaths in Gaza and the West Bank and 1,200 deaths in Israel. The deadliest day of the war for journalist deaths was its first day, October 7, with six journalists killed; the second-deadliest day occurred on November 18, with five killed''
https://www.google.com/search?q=journalists+shot+by+the+idf+before+oct7&rlz=1C1VDKB_en-GBAU957AU957&oq=journalists+shot+by+the+idf+before+oct7&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTM0MTc0ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
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And here comes Bristol Red Rover making out he's bothered about aggressor countries committing war crimes.
Are you trying to make a point about Israel? No. Fail. Off topic.
Ukraine/Usa/Nato/Eu/Uk v Russia - who was the aggressor? You think it's Russia who went over the Ukraine border. I guess in Israel you see it as Hamas who went over the border. There is stuff that happened in bucketfuls before both of these incidents. Did you miss that?
Pretty sure I'm right in thinking "it was Russia who went over the Ukraine border" but the fact you pose the question on the basis that you don't believe it is all we need to know about that. So, along with your batshit belief that it wasn't Russia who went over the border your theory is that Russia cannot have committed war crimes?
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Syd, it is like miners get killed in the mines, it should be expected to a degree especially with the destructive ordnance used today compared with the past and their range of fire.
The way wars are played out on TV, just what the wo is me brigade want by the way, and the nearer the action the media want to get to the action the more it will happen.
It is noticeable that very few Israeli correspondent's are on the list after the first day because they are being kept away as one side wants to keep what is going on as quiet as possible and rightly so.
If anyone thinks that with facial recognition the Israelis are not analysing shots from say inside hospitals in chaos etc. to know who is there I think they are a little naive.
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Syd, it is like miners get killed in the mines, it should be expected to a degree especially with the destructive ordnance used today compared with the past and their range of fire.
The way wars are played out on TV, just what the wo is me brigade want by the way, and the nearer the action the media want to get to the action the more it will happen.
It is noticeable that very few Israeli correspondent's are on the list after the first day because they are being kept away as one side wants to keep what is going on as quiet as possible and rightly so.
If anyone thinks that with facial recognition the Israelis are not analysing shots from say inside hospitals in chaos etc. to know who is there I think they are a little naive.
You're sounding more and more like brr explaining russia's role in the Ukraine
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Syd, it is like miners get killed in the mines, it should be expected to a degree especially with the destructive ordnance used today compared with the past and their range of fire.
The way wars are played out on TV, just what the wo is me brigade want by the way, and the nearer the action the media want to get to the action the more it will happen.
It is noticeable that very few Israeli correspondent's are on the list after the first day because they are being kept away as one side wants to keep what is going on as quiet as possible and rightly so.
If anyone thinks that with facial recognition the Israelis are not analysing shots from say inside hospitals in chaos etc. to know who is there I think they are a little naive.
You're sounding more and more like brr explaining russia's role in the Ukraine
I disagree with you Syd!
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And here comes Bristol Red Rover making out he's bothered about aggressor countries committing war crimes.
Are you trying to make a point about Israel? No. Fail. Off topic.
Ukraine/Usa/Nato/Eu/Uk v Russia - who was the aggressor? You think it's Russia who went over the Ukraine border. I guess in Israel you see it as Hamas who went over the border. There is stuff that happened in bucketfuls before both of these incidents. Did you miss that?
Pretty sure I'm right in thinking "it was Russia who went over the Ukraine border" but the fact you pose the question on the basis that you don't believe it is all we need to know about that. So, along with your batshit belief that it wasn't Russia who went over the border your theory is that Russia cannot have committed war crimes?
That's not the point I made, but helpful to see how you filter things.
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Of course it isn't, you only ever play the blame game aimed squarely at anyone other than Russia, never addressing the real point.
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Of course it isn't, you only ever play the blame game aimed squarely at anyone other than Russia, never addressing the real point.
What is the real point in your world? Try keeping on topic, keep it about the Israel situation. Or post in the appropriate thread.
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Looks like everyone calling for a Ceasfire! Israelis will want it on their terms!
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If anyone isn't aware of the hypocritical barbarism of the Israeli attacks in Gaza, or of the barefaced privaleged lies of it's politicians, check this out. The deputy mayor of Jerusalem on LBC first claiming she saw the report about the snipers killing civilians (mother and daughter) in a Catholic Church in Gaza, then claiming there are no churches in Gaza, then claiming there are no Christians in Gaza (both clearly untrue), and then claiming she didn't read the report.
Vid should start at 18:11 - just a couple of mins to see this, though the rest is well worth listening to.
https://youtu.be/JgKkp23EWL4?si=4asE5rvJXjoZ9pKQ&t=1091
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https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17043065110692&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fisrael-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan%2F
Israel sporting its swastika ever more proudly.
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Smotrich: "Two million people wake up every morning with a desire to destroy the State of Israel and to slaughter, rape and murder Jews."
That's the Israeli finance minister on the genocidal trail.
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-780524
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The International Court of Justice has announced that the presentation of South Africa’s case of war crimes against Israel, and the response, on the 11th and 12th January will be held in public hearings.
An explainer:
https://youtu.be/YSXSGLGAzwo
Interesting to see the position of those supplying arms and logistical support to Israel if they are found guilty.
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This South Africa?
https://twitter.com/EmbassyofRussia/status/1741496568090448282?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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This South Africa?
https://twitter.com/EmbassyofRussia/status/1741496568090448282?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Yes. Maybe they have more wisdom than little old thee?
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South Africa aren’t exactly a serious country nowadays are they?
Good news about those Hamas leaders being taken out anyway… am I right lads?
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South Africa aren’t exactly a serious country nowadays are they?
Good news about those Hamas leaders being taken out anyway… am I right lads?
What you think about the genocide?
And I see you're loving pre ANC South Africa. "Right" ? I'd say fascist. Or at best a right something.
Insults like this reserved for special cases. You are special.
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I was following up Billy’s comment BRR. Unless you think being friends with Putin is what serious countries do?
You’ve somehow joined some dots to call me a fascist.
Perhaps apologise for such an accusation?
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I'm sure the parents of the kids butchered, incinerated by white phosphorus, or left to decompose in incubators in Gaza will rest a little easier knowing that it can't be a war crime, because the Russian embassy in South Africa did a tweet.
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Not the point MM
SA is clearly and unambiguously in the Russian tent. That's the geopolitical background to why they are bringing this action.
I'm not for a moment excusing the Israeli actions, but, cynical though this might make me sound, there are very much bigger dangers in play here. Russia and it's partner Iran see this as a chance to weaken their big opponents.
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They undoubtedly are. BRICS and all that. But scoffing at the war crimes case because the country bringing it is part of a trade agreement with Russia is flimsy at best. I'm sure SA's own particular history played a large part in it.
It doesn't really matter if Putin himself brought the case though, when you have several Israeli officials openly and repeatedly stating their intentions on camera, while the IDF conducts a campaign of mass terror. If the West doesn't want to be weakened by that, we can simply stop supporting it.
Putin is a monster who will go down as one of history's butchers, but if he says the sky is blue, I can see the evidence for myself. And I can see the evidence of what's going on in Gaza too - despite the targeting of the journalists and NGO workers who are working to verify it.
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I was following up Billy’s comment BRR. Unless you think being friends with Putin is what serious countries do?
You’ve somehow joined some dots to call me a fascist.
Perhaps apologise for such an accusation?
No apology. Not following your logic at all.
Israel funded apartheid in SA, even reportedly to the level of giving them battlefield nukes, the point being that they were bedfellows. SA changed for the better. Israel progresses down the fascist route further all the time. Seems you support that including the genocide.
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Classic insight into the Israeli government mindset. Elon Levy, Israeli gov spokesperson accusing South Africa of allying itself with "the devil". That Israel think such language carries weight (maybe it does in the psycho US mind?) or has any relevance outside of political fairytale, shows the level of their "mission".
How dare the nation that last got rid of apartheid challenge the most prominent apartheid nation on earth. Using the devil card, along with a trail of similar mental statements, shows the guilt, and the hypocrisy.
https://youtu.be/D9Y12La20Rs?si=rQSF2QDJRYP_2lA1
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Another 57 countries have joined behind the action by South Africa against the genocide and war crimes of Israel.
The IOC group are mainly muslim countries backing the attempt to prohibit further atrocities in Gaza.
Naturally, the likes of the UK have not got the ethical backbone to support any cease and desist initiative aimed at Bibi and Co.
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Well, I think they will be disappointed, I reckon Israel are only about half way through their campaign, and what others think really doesn't matter that much to them.
In fact I think they want others to jump in so they can sort things out once and for all before the others get too strong and have the tackle they have.
If the population in Gaza had any sense they would rid themselves of Hamas and turn them out to stop their suffering.
Both sides are hell bent on the total destruction of the other, it is total war and the big risk is if Israel were in danger of being driven out, they would use the big ones they have. Iran knows this and is the only thing keeping them at arms length, and non of the surrounding countries of Gaza look like accepting their population as they are future trouble for them.
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The hole in your solution Selby, is that Israel want palestinians out, not just Hamas, they always have. This is well stated throughout the Israeli state, and evidently in their actions, consistent over decades. And obviously this is what gives birth to what is a reasonable objection to genocide.
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The hole in your solution Selby, is that Israel want palestinians out, not just Hamas, they always have. This is well stated throughout the Israeli state, and evidently in their actions, consistent over decades. And obviously this is what gives birth to what is a reasonable objection to genocide.
The other flaw in his solution is thinking that Hamas is a group or a number of people. It's not. It's an idealogy that believes what the Israeli government, settlers and IDF have been doing for years is wrong.
He offers no alternative solution to this. Just killing people he doesn't like.
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Wilts.
It IS a group. It ran the Gaza Strip for 16 years, and organised the 7 Oct attacks.
You make it sound like the Fabians. It is a coherent political grouping that has consistently argued that Israel should not exist. And it was voted to power by Palestinians.
It does no-one any good to make this a one sided Right Vs Wrong argument.
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I was following up Billy’s comment BRR. Unless you think being friends with Putin is what serious countries do?
You’ve somehow joined some dots to call me a fascist.
Perhaps apologise for such an accusation?
No apology. Not following your logic at all.
Israel funded apartheid in SA, even reportedly to the level of giving them battlefield nukes, the point being that they were bedfellows. SA changed for the better. Israel progresses down the fascist route further all the time. Seems you support that including the genocide.
They aren’t going to influence anything.
They are not an influential country on the global stage.
They are part of an economic alliance that with Iran and Russia in it, is essentially a geopolitical rival to the G7 and the West.
Therefore they aren’t an impartial country in this matter as Israel is an ally of the west.
No. I don't think they were more of a serious country in their apartheid era. I never said that.
But thanks for the history lesson I didn’t know that, I wasn’t born then.
If you hate fascists, you should be happy that Hamas leaders got killed. All human suffering is bad, and there cannot be peace and prosperity for Palestine or Israel with Hamas.
Once again, I politely ask you to put Hamas on the political spectrum.
I also am not all for Israel doing whatever the hell they want without repercussion. It’s a very complicated situation. Not all war is genocide and is it not universally accepted that that is happening. But they have a right to exist and defend themselves. I’ve been through this with you multiple times but you still spit spiteful bile and slanderous labels at anyone with the slightest disagreement with you.
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The hole in your solution Selby, is that Israel want palestinians out, not just Hamas, they always have. This is well stated throughout the Israeli state, and evidently in their actions, consistent over decades. And obviously this is what gives birth to what is a reasonable objection to genocide.
The other flaw in his solution is thinking that Hamas is a group or a number of people. It's not. It's an idealogy that believes what the Israeli government, settlers and IDF have been doing for years is wrong.
He offers no alternative solution to this. Just killing people he doesn't like.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
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I was following up Billy’s comment BRR. Unless you think being friends with Putin is what serious countries do?
You’ve somehow joined some dots to call me a fascist.
Perhaps apologise for such an accusation?
No apology. Not following your logic at all.
Israel funded apartheid in SA, even reportedly to the level of giving them battlefield nukes, the point being that they were bedfellows. SA changed for the better. Israel progresses down the fascist route further all the time. Seems you support that including the genocide.
They aren’t going to influence anything.
They are not an influential country on the global stage.
They are part of an economic alliance that with Iran and Russia in it, is essentially a geopolitical rival to the G7 and the West.
Therefore they aren’t an impartial country in this matter as Israel is an ally of the west.
No. I don't think they were more of a serious country in their apartheid era. I never said that.
But thanks for the history lesson I didn’t know that, I wasn’t born then.
If you hate fascists, you should be happy that Hamas leaders got killed. All human suffering is bad, and there cannot be peace and prosperity for Palestine or Israel with Hamas.
Once again, I politely ask you to put Hamas on the political spectrum.
I also am not all for Israel doing whatever the hell they want without repercussion. It’s a very complicated situation. Not all war is genocide and is it not universally accepted that that is happening. But they have a right to exist and defend themselves. I’ve been through this with you multiple times but you still spit spiteful bile and slanderous labels at anyone with the slightest disagreement with you.
Missing the point. SA is taking this to an international court, rightly backed by other nations. Israel's defence, as heard so far, is on the level of "my dad's bigger than yours", no surprise from an apartheid genocidal nation.
Further, the issue SA may have, is that Israel supported the apartheid nation of SA. They have history in SA racial oppression. Who'd have thunked one of Israel's objections to being hauled up for mass racial murder was the Jewish history of being mass murdered?
It's literally black and white.
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Wilts.
It IS a group. It ran the Gaza Strip for 16 years, and organised the 7 Oct attacks.
You make it sound like the Fabians. It is a coherent political grouping that has consistently argued that Israel should not exist. And it was voted to power by Palestinians.
It does no-one any good to make this a one sided Right Vs Wrong argument.
What. You mean like you have just done?
Unless somebody comes up with a solution to how Jews and Arabs can live together in a place called Palestine you are going to have people, like Hamas and like Likud, who believe they can't. Whatever you want to call them. It's an ideology.
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Wilts.
It IS a group. It ran the Gaza Strip for 16 years, and organised the 7 Oct attacks.
You make it sound like the Fabians. It is a coherent political grouping that has consistently argued that Israel should not exist. And it was voted to power by Palestinians.
It does no-one any good to make this a one sided Right Vs Wrong argument.
What. You mean like you have just done?
Unless somebody comes up with a solution to how Jews and Arabs can live together in a place called Palestine you are going to have people, like Hamas and like Likud, who believe they can't. Whatever you want to call them. It's an ideology.
No. I haven't.
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Wilts.
It IS a group. It ran the Gaza Strip for 16 years, and organised the 7 Oct attacks.
You make it sound like the Fabians. It is a coherent political grouping that has consistently argued that Israel should not exist. And it was voted to power by Palestinians.
It does no-one any good to make this a one sided Right Vs Wrong argument.
What. You mean like you have just done?
Unless somebody comes up with a solution to how Jews and Arabs can live together in a place called Palestine you are going to have people, like Hamas and like Likud, who believe they can't. Whatever you want to call them. It's an ideology.
No. I haven't.
Blinded by the Tears.
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Well, I think they will be disappointed, I reckon Israel are only about half way through their campaign, and what others think really doesn't matter that much to them.
In fact I think they want others to jump in so they can sort things out once and for all before the others get too strong and have the tackle they have.
If the population in Gaza had any sense they would rid themselves of Hamas and turn them out to stop their suffering.
Both sides are hell bent on the total destruction of the other, it is total war and the big risk is if Israel were in danger of being driven out, they would use the big ones they have. Iran knows this and is the only thing keeping them at arms length, and non of the surrounding countries of Gaza look like accepting their population as they are future trouble for them.
hmmm
''//Israel says Gaza fighting could last a year, amplifying fears of regional war
Comments from senior defence officials come during tour by US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, intended to defuse tensions''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/07/israel-says-gaza-fighting-could-last-a-year-amplifying-fears-of-regional-war
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hmmm
''The UK is facing accusations of double standards after formally submitting detailed legal arguments to the international court of justice in The Hague six weeks ago to support claims that Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya ethnic group through its mass mistreatment of children and systematically depriving people of their homes and food.
The UK made its 21-page “declaration of intervention” jointly with five other countries, but it is not supporting South Africa as it prepares to try to convince the ICJ on Thursday that Israel is at risk of committing genocide against the Palestinian people''
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/jan/07/uk-accused-of-hypocrisy-in-not-backing-claim-of-genocide-in-gaza-before-icj
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Syd, let this lodge in your brain, the politicians do the talking, unfortunately the generals don't give too hoots, they said rubble that is what is going to happen, and they want a wider conflict.
When the other side is determined to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth (I don't hear much complaining about that rhetoric on here) and publicly spout it, and while Israel have the tackle they are going to meet it head on whatever is in front of them, the original Hamas attack stepped over the line buddy.
The cavalry over the hill have left it too late, Gaza is a side show now for Israel and is being used to draw others into it and they know it.
They have not withdrawn troops from Gaza to stand them down, and are still calling reserves up.
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This reporter's wife, two sons, and grandson had already been killed in an IDF strike. Now his one living son, also a reporter, was murdered in what looks like a targeted drone strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/al-jazeera-accuses-israel-of-targeted-strike-as-two-of-its-journalists-killed-in-gaza?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
I've seen footage of the aftermath on social media. It's clear that the car they were travelling in was targeted with surgical precision.
This is as much to do with Hamas as Putin's war has to do with Azov Nazis.
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This reporter's wife, two sons, and grandson had already been killed in an IDF strike. Now his one living son, also a reporter, was murdered in what looks like a targeted drone strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/al-jazeera-accuses-israel-of-targeted-strike-as-two-of-its-journalists-killed-in-gaza?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
I've seen footage of the aftermath on social media. It's clear that the car they were travelling in was targeted with surgical precision.
This is as much to do with Hamas as Putin's war has to do with Azov Nazis.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-08/ty-article-live/hezbollah-confirms-death-of-senior-commander-video-shows-israeli-hostage-in-gaza/0000018c-e702-d765-ab9d-f77fb8fe0000?liveBlogItemId=1047279372#1004549916
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Just in case some of you Goldfish have lost the plot!
Experts at the United Nations say crimes committed against civilians during Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel amounted to war crimes and could qualify as crimes against humanity.
In a statement from Geneva, the experts — Alice Jill Edwards, a special rapporteur on torture and other punishment, and Morris Tidball-Binz, a special rapporteur on "extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions" — called for full accountability for the widespread killings and alleged sexual torture.
“As armed Palestinian groups rampaged through communities in Israel bordering the Gaza strip, thousands of people were subjected to targeted and brutal attacks, the vast majority of whom were civilians,” the statement said. “The growing body of evidence about reported sexual violence is particularly harrowing."
The UN experts said that allegations of sexual torture included rape and gang rapes and that there were mutilations and gunshot wounds to genital areas of victims as well as other signs of sexual violence.
“These acts constitute gross violations of international law, amounting to war crimes which, given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks, may also qualify as crimes against humanity," the experts said.
Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence during the attack despite the evidence.
Source CNN
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Sprot I condemn both sides (any side) that commit atrocities and any that do should be brought to the ICJ. The only way this can ever stop is starting with a truce then peace then a negotiated homeland for the Palestinians under which all sides would have to agree to the others existence. International law has to be respected.
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Sprot I condemn both sides (any side) that commit atrocities and any that do should be brought to the ICJ. The only way this can ever stop is starting with a truce then peace then a negotiated homeland for the Palestinians under which all sides would have to agree to the others existence. International law has to be respected.
They had been offered 90% of the West Bank and they turned it down what hope is there for a resolution it minuscule.
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none while lunatics are running israel and palestine
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Sprot I condemn both sides (any side) that commit atrocities and any that do should be brought to the ICJ. The only way this can ever stop is starting with a truce then peace then a negotiated homeland for the Palestinians under which all sides would have to agree to the others existence. International law has to be respected.
They had been offered 90% of the West Bank and they turned it down what hope is there for a resolution it minuscule.
!00% of the west bank is the only reasonable deal.
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Just in case some of you Goldfish have lost the plot!
Experts at the United Nations say crimes committed against civilians during Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel amounted to war crimes and could qualify as crimes against humanity.
In a statement from Geneva, the experts — Alice Jill Edwards, a special rapporteur on torture and other punishment, and Morris Tidball-Binz, a special rapporteur on "extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions" — called for full accountability for the widespread killings and alleged sexual torture.
“As armed Palestinian groups rampaged through communities in Israel bordering the Gaza strip, thousands of people were subjected to targeted and brutal attacks, the vast majority of whom were civilians,” the statement said. “The growing body of evidence about reported sexual violence is particularly harrowing."
The UN experts said that allegations of sexual torture included rape and gang rapes and that there were mutilations and gunshot wounds to genital areas of victims as well as other signs of sexual violence.
“These acts constitute gross violations of international law, amounting to war crimes which, given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks, may also qualify as crimes against humanity," the experts said.
Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence during the attack despite the evidence.
Source CNN
Hmmm.... excuses for the MASS slaughter by Israel. A slaughter that has been wanted for many decades. That on top of many decades of theft and murder, and indeed creating the conflict in the first place.
Meanwhile, the legal case against Israeli genocide, and by association, against the US collusion, will go on in the UN court. I suspect the UK might escape any implication, though is guilty of supporting and encouraging Israel. Including of course the legal pea brain Zionist Starmer.
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They are sorting a. Best of Vipers as best as they can!
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BRR, Israel are not in this for deals now, not since the beginning of October.
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BRR, Israel are not in this for deals now, not since the beginning of October.
Israel have never been in this for deals. They are Zionist, they believe they have the right to all trhe land. This is the problem. October was awful, but let's be clear how worse than that has been done by Israel for decades, and is excused.
How will this end? Badly. It looks like it will go on for many more decades. Many more will die.
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This from aljazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-settlers-and-why-do-they-live-on-palestinian-lands#:~:text=Israel%20started%20building%20settlements%20just,in%20the%20occupied%20West%20Bank.
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They are sorting a. Best of Vipers as best as they can!
Vipers sorting vipers? Who is sorting out the murdering Israeli's?
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''Who are Israeli settlers, and why do they live on Palestinian lands?
As many as 700,000 Israeli settlers are living illegally in the occupied West Bank as settler violence surges//
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''Since Israel unleashed its brutal bombing campaign in Gaza on October 7 in the wake of a deadly Hamas attack, settler attacks against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem have more than doubled from an average of three to eight incidents a day, according to the United Nations.
The spike in settler attacks have forced hundreds of Palestinians to flee their homes in the past three weeks amid the Israeli bombardment of Gaza that has killed more than 9,500 people''
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''A plurality of Israeli Jews who live in the West Bank say that the construction of settlements improves the security of the country, according to the Pew Research Center. The argument is that settlements act as a buffer for Israel’s national security as they restrict the movement of Palestinians and undermine the viability of a Palestinian state. However, some on the Israeli left argue that the settlement expansion hurts the two-state solution and thereby Israel’s own prospects for peace''
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''Kfar Etzion, one of the oldest settlements, houses around 1,000 people while the largest – Modi’in Illit – has around 82,000 settlers, most of them ultraorthodox Jews.
Successive Israeli governments have pursued this policy leading to a rise in settler population in the occupied territories.
About 40 percent of the occupied West Bank land is now controlled by settlements. These settlements — along with a vast network of checkpoints for Palestinians — effectively separate the Palestinian parts of the West Bank from each other, making the prospect of a future contiguous state almost impossible, according to critics''
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''The first Jewish settlement in Palestine goes back to the early 20th century when Jews facing widespread discrimination, religious persecution and pogroms in Europe started to arrive. Back then Palestine – which was still under British colonial control – was overwhelmingly Arab with a tiny Jewish minority.
Tel Aviv, Israel’s largest city, was built as a settlement in the suburb of the Arab city of Jaffa in 1909.
The mass migration of Jews to Palestine triggered an Arab uprising. But in the ensuing violence, the well-armed Zionist militias ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. Palestinians call their expulsion the Nakba, which is Arabic for catastrophe''
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''The Israeli government has openly funded and built settlements for Jews to live there.
The Israeli authorities give its settlers in the West Bank some 20 million shekels ($5m) a year to monitor, report and restrict Palestinian construction in Area C, which is over 60 percent of the West Bank. The money is used to hire inspectors and buy drones, aerial imagery, tablets and vehicles among other things''
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''On April 4, Israeli authorities asked to double that amount in the state budget, to 40 million shekels ($10m).
Over the past few years, the Israeli army has been operating a hotline it calls War Room C, for settlers to call and report Palestinian construction in Area C.
Several Israeli laws enable settlers to seize Palestinian land:
Israel has declared about 26 percent of the West Bank’s territory as “state land,” on which settlements can be built.
Israel has used legal means to expropriate Palestinian property for public needs such as roads, settlements and parks.
After the signing of the 1993 Oslo Accords with the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), the Israeli government officially stopped building new settlements but the existing settlements continued to grow.
The settlement population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem grew from approximately 250,000 in 1993 to nearly 700,000 in September this year''
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''But in 2017, Israel formally announced the start of new settlements.
Prime Minister Netanyahu – Israel’s longest-serving prime minister – has bolstered settlement expansions since he first came to power in 1996.
There are also Israeli “nongovernmental” organisations that work to evict Palestinians from their land using loopholes in the land laws.
Israeli authorities also regularly seize and demolish Palestinian properties citing the lack of Israeli-issued building permits and land documents.
But international rights groups say acquiring an Israeli building permit is nearly impossible''
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''No. All settlements and outposts are considered illegal under international laws as they violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, which bans an occupying power from transferring its population to the area it occupies.
Settlements, activists say, are enclaves of Israeli sovereignty that have fragmented the occupied West Bank, and any future Palestinian state would look like a series of tiny, unconnected South Africa’s former Bantustans, or black-only townships.
The United Nations has condemned them through multiple resolutions and votes. In 2016, a United Nations Security Council resolution said settlements had “no legal validity”.
But the US, Israel’s closest ally, has provided diplomatic cover over the years. Washington has consistently used its veto power at the UN to protect Israel from diplomatic censure.
Israel authorises and encourages settlements. Though it deems outposts as illegal under its laws, Israel has in recent years retrospectively legalised several outposts''
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''Israel has built a wall or Separation Barrier that stretches for more than 700km (435 miles) through the West Bank restricting movement of more than 3 million Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. But Israel says the wall is for security purposes.
Palestinian farmers need to apply for permits to access their own land. These permits need to be renewed repeatedly and can also be denied or revoked without explanation.
For instance, about 270 of the entire 291 hectares that belong to the Palestinian village of Wadi Fukin near Bethlehem are designated as Area C, which is under Israeli control. About 60 percent of the occupied West Bank falls under Area C.
Besides the separation wall, over 700 road obstacles are placed across the West Bank including 140 checkpoints. About 70,000 Palestinians with Israeli work permits cross these checkpoints in their daily commute''
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''Palestinians cannot move freely between the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, and require permits to do so.
Rights groups such as Human Rights Watch and B’Tselem have concluded that Israeli policies and laws used to dominate Palestinian people can be described as “apartheid“
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''Settlers have carried 241 attacks in the West Bank forcing around 1,000 Palestinians to flee their homes as Israel has continued its relentless bombardment of Gaza, since October 7.
“Settlers have been committing crimes in the occupied West Bank well before October 7. It is as though, however, they got a green light after October 7 to carry out more crimes,” Ghassan Daghlas, a Palestinian Authority official monitoring settler activity told Al Jazeera.
On October 28, a Palestinian farmer harvesting olives was shot dead by settlers in the occupied West Bank city of Nablus. “We are now during the olive harvest season – people have not been able to reach 60 percent of olive trees in the Nablus area because of settler attacks,” said Daghlas.
Bedouin village of Wadi as-Seeq villlage in the occupied West Bank was emptied out of its 200 residents on October 12 following threats from settlers''
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''The current violence comes as last year saw record settler violence, rising from an average of three to seven incidents a day, according to the United Nations.
In recent years settlers have increasingly been trying to pray at the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound raising Palestinian concerns that they want to encroach upon Islam’s third holiest site. Jewish prayers are not allowed as per “status quo” governing the Al-Aqsa.
Three days before Hamas carried out a deadly attack inside Israel, settlers stormed the mosque compound. In 2021, Israeli police stormed the mosque compound to facilitate the entry of settlers, triggering a deadly conflict.
In February, far-right settlers went on a rampage in the West Bank town of Huwara torching dozens of houses and cars. Following the violence, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich called for Huwara to be “wiped out”.
Israeli settler violence has displaced more than 1,100 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank since 2022, according to a UN report released in September 2023.
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It's an interesting article aye?
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What are your sources of information for those last few posts Syd?
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11 posts no links or source, beats my record!
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11 posts no links or source, beats my record!
see post #836 sprot
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Sydney,
Would you pay attention to Telegraph coverage of a Labour Party conference?
Because Al Jazeera is about as biased on the Palestine issue as it gets. Your beloved bible, The Guardian comes in 2nd.
I’m not saying that stuff didn’t happen, I just think you’re a hypocrite.
Any time I or anyone else posts a source that isn’t from your approved reading list you discount it based solely on the source.
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11 posts no links or source, beats my record!
see post #836 sprot
I used to like Al Jazeera but their reporting from Gaza is totally biases and one sided.
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11 posts no links or source, beats my record!
see post #836 sprot
I used to like Al Jazeera but their reporting from Gaza is totally biases and one sided.
You should start your own news blog and than you could add your own history.
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Totally biased commentary, the content is factual though, the sympathy expectedly one sided, they are taking a hammering and outside influences are not going to stop it as they expected it to.
They dealt themselves a dumb hand and the woh is me card is not having much effect on the situation.
Basically they did what they are good at the first day the surprise stab in the back, when it comes to force against force they have not got the professionalism and for now are just going to have to take the retribution until Israel think enough is enough.
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If netanyahu offered himself up as a swap for the remaining hostages it would solve so many problems
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SYD, at least he is leading front and centre, and not hiding ( not that safely by the looks of it) directing operations from hundreds of miles away, or under a school desk or Hospital bed to play their woh is me card.
How you can try and defend them that are ignoring the safety of their own people purposely putting women and children as a barrier between them and a war machine I cannot imagine.
I can only think it was planned all along to widen their ultimate goal of uprisings in other countries, even here and the USA, but certainly the cavalry coming over the hill from the Lebanon and Iran, who have jibbed when they have realised that is just what Israel and the USA want now rather than later.
All they have done military wise is attract the western powers to the fact along with the Ukraine situation and Russia along with Taiwan they need to build back up military superiority at least to match China, they have poked the hornets nest into action and is the main thing to come out of both conflicts.
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Selby, do you think the US tax payers will be in favour of more for the military? That's the main issue, but also do you think Euro, UK tax payers will pay more? I doubt US will, certain UK/Euro won't.
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It's worth taking 2 minutes out to watch this
https://www.facebook.com/reel/897504308752440
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BRR, yes I do because they will be attacked, it is the only thing they do well, there will be terrorist attacks in the USA and Europe, and attacks on shipping and economies will effect everyone in the west.
Two things could arise, either a large what will be called a cold war with the west and east mostly opposing each other, but not that big a military confrontation with known lines drawn and an espionage war fought.
Or movements like Isis or North Korea feeling their feet going for a bigger splash being responded to and Iran and other what we call rogue states especially Muslim banding together that would be a bigger threat if Pakistan another nuclear country with North Korea and possibly Iran lining up.
The genie is not far off getting out of the bottle, and the doves in the west have been asleep too long, but are waking up quickly because of the substantial threat of people in power in those countries who have a complete different view of how the world should be compared to anyone who posts on this forum like it or not we are all the enemy whatever our differing views on here as individuals, the one thing a lot of populations are not, them being indoctrinated from a very young age to hate your and my lifestyle and teachings.
The biggest question I have is on what scale will it happen, and my wish is for it not to, but the West cannot ignore it, and the East will not stop building their countries a certain way, and the lawless South America situation and the rise of terrorism in Africa will be interesting which way they jump.
The world is a mess, and we are a country full of wide boys and spivs running the show.
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I agree things might hot up, and it's normal for countries to be at war. I wonder why that is?
In your analysis there you mention specific "rogue states" and refer to various other possible sources of danger. Do you think other nations see things differently?
Israel has been a rogue state in the eyes of many others, more so now. The US is seen a the bully on the block. The UK isn't looking good. France neither. You can go through so many of the nations I'm guessing you see as on the goody side - it's a matter of opinion on the whole.
The way to keep people in their place is to instill fear. Many world problems Israel and Ukraine are perfect examples - could have been solved diplomatically. The problem is people in power in many nations, on both sides of the coin, are baddies, creating conflict. It's the leaders, and the simplistic playground mentality of those that support them that is the problem. The same really that allows nutters like Sunak, Johnson, Starmer, Blair, etc etc to do what they do.
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Meanwhile in court, what's the likelihood that Israel's main defence is that Hitler killed Jews?
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Meanwhile in court, what's the likelihood that Israel's main defence is that Hitler killed Jews?
Meanwhile in court the likelihood that Israel’s main defence is Hamas killed Jews
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SYD, at least he is leading front and centre, and not hiding ( not that safely by the looks of it) directing operations from hundreds of miles away, or under a school desk or Hospital bed to play their woh is me card.
How you can try and defend them that are ignoring the safety of their own people purposely putting women and children as a barrier between them and a war machine I cannot imagine.
I can only think it was planned all along to widen their ultimate goal of uprisings in other countries, even here and the USA, but certainly the cavalry coming over the hill from the Lebanon and Iran, who have jibbed when they have realised that is just what Israel and the USA want now rather than later.
All they have done military wise is attract the western powers to the fact along with the Ukraine situation and Russia along with Taiwan they need to build back up military superiority at least to match China, they have poked the hornets nest into action and is the main thing to come out of both conflicts.
Meanwhile in court, what's the likelihood that Israel's main defence is that Hitler killed Jews?
Meanwhile in court the likelihood that Israel’s main defence is Hamas killed Jews
Meanwhile in Court Israel’s main defence will be that the forces of a neighbouring state attacked them without making a formal declaration of War and thousands of their troops committed untold numbers of vile atrocities against innocent men women and children on a scale never seen before in history.
Thousands of crimes against humanity, I don’t see this ending well for Hamas!
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Hamas may get their day in court but the current case is against Israel sprot
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Hamas may get their day in court but the current case is against Israel sprot
If all goes well there won’t be any hamas left to have a day in court
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Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
That comment is nearly as bad as this one where you question if rape was proportionate BRR and state that taking innocent hostages is justified.
Did the South African state condemn Oct 7th or did they follow your logic in this post?
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Just watched Israel's response to South Africa by Tal Becker to their genocide accusations and used videos and recordings and stated facts that looked to have the South Africans squirming a little. pointing out how a lot of the civil destruction of buildings is by booby trapped explosives and two thousand miss fired Hamas rockets or ones aimed at buildings already vacated by Palestinian's but in areas occupied by Israel's troops so self destroyed.
Most of the row of judges looked asleep.
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remind me who is on trial selby?
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I don't think there is an argument against genocide that goes well they did that?
Israel should reply by by demanding a trial of hamas.
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remind me who is on trial selby?
I think you will find that Hamas will be on trial Syd!
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Population of Gaza, 1990 - 270,072, 2000 - 385,814, 2010 - 535,021, 2020 - 713,621 (www.worldpopulationreview.com) Isreal - really shit at genocide since 1990!
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Syd Israel are there for two things only, to show that Hamas are just as bad as they are at genocide and secondly to tell any one there to go and do one, whatever they say whatever they do, will not alter any guilty decision, but, will not make any difference to what they have and are going to do. and will highlight the fact that that court and the UN are impotent.
I don't think you even have any idea of the fact that this is total war on both sides, and absolutely nothing is off the table and what that entails and the thought processes of the participants on the battle field, they are not playing it out on a play console, its nothing else but them or us, and it is not going to be us in their minds.
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I don't think there is an argument against genocide that goes well they did that?
Israel should reply by by demanding a trial of hamas.
Here’s a pretty comprehensive one.
https://x.com/cptallenhistory/status/1745586419232284914?s=46
When SA say “this didn’t start on Oct 7th”, when do they think it started?
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Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
That comment is nearly as bad as this one where you question if rape was proportionate BRR and state that taking innocent hostages is justified.
Did the South African state condemn Oct 7th or did they follow your logic in this post?
You are missing the point. Israel in court for genocide. Discuss. Don't be Complicit.
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As the Israeli legal team pointed out, the South African proposal only states Israel should cease hostilities, but does not propose the same restrictions on Hamas, a bit one sided that.
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Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
That comment is nearly as bad as this one where you question if rape was proportionate BRR and state that taking innocent hostages is justified.
Did the South African state condemn Oct 7th or did they follow your logic in this post?
You are missing the point. Israel in court for genocide. Discuss. Don't be Complicit.
Please see #877
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Depends how you interoperate Genocide, the two sides have different views on it.
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Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:
- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation
Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?
You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?
You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force
I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.
So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.
The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.
What do you think?
That comment is nearly as bad as this one where you question if rape was proportionate BRR and state that taking innocent hostages is justified.
Did the South African state condemn Oct 7th or did they follow your logic in this post?
You are missing the point. Israel in court for genocide. Discuss. Don't be Complicit.
Please see #877
Wow! That tweet is a trail of desperate appologist excuses for mass murder, including throwing in the Nazi murder of Jews as reason to be offended - which it is if you are a Jew coming out with the genocidal statements, eg the Israeli PM and the even more pscho members of that government. Shameful hypocrisy.
It says in that tweet how Hamas have expressed the desire to rid the whole land of Jews. However, Hamas aren't currently acting on that. Israel is. There are numerous statements from military, top ranked government ministers explicitly stating their desire to get rid of Palestinians - notably denied by that tweet. Historically Israel has been clearing Palestinians since the 1940s, maybe earlier. The key point is Israel have and are actioning genocide as defined by the UN.
If you are keeping up with the evidence, why would you cite that tweet? Why anyway would you cite that tweet as it is nothing more than a collectoin of Zionist excuses used all over the internet. Surely you have your own views that could stand up on a football forum even if they wouldn't against actual evidence.
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Depends how you interoperate Genocide, the two sides have different views on it.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
It's very clear there. I think Israel's version means only when it is done by the dictate of a man with a short stubby moustache, and the victims are Jews. Hypocrisy.
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As the Israeli legal team pointed out, the South African proposal only states Israel should cease hostilities, but does not propose the same restrictions on Hamas, a bit one sided that.
I agree it's one sided in the bigger picture but right now, Israel is committing genocide on a huge scale, Hamas isn't.
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Netanyahu states he won't abide by the Hague ruling. He also encourages the US to go after Iran. Plain nuts, and an insult to those who died in the holocaust. Ironically, Germany is backing him in his genocidal meglamania due to guilt over their history.
https://youtu.be/K7lVK0bFTbc?si=k4-kilcuqmNpEo5f
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Surprised our resident Guardian reader hasn’t posted this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks
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Surprised our resident Guardian reader hasn’t posted this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks
When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
If I'm a citizen of Israel I'd say fuq the Palestinians , in fact scrub that , feck the Palestinians anyway .
You hire Hamas to do your fighting then live with the consequences .
The centrist cr#p posted on here is for the fairies .
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The centrist cr#p posted on here is for the fairies
Posted by Faeiries for Faeries
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Meanwhile IDF are killing Israeli hostages. Israel are targeting hospitals and civilians, killing them, maiming many more for life. Meanwhile the Israeli PM is on a mission that parallels Hitler. Meanwhile Right Wing Hooray Orcs are feeding a conflict that not only creates more death in the middle East, and won't succeed in its aims, but risks adding to the collective tension that steps us closer to ww3. Meanwhile, the extremist religious psychopaths in the Israeli Parliament push policies ever more extreme and murderous. Meanwhile, the UK and US hang on to Israel's coat tails with increasing nervousness etc
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Anyone else seen the vid of Israel blowing up the University in Gaza? Clearly no threat from it. The US isn't condemmng it. It is a crime.
Mexico and Chile have just taken Israel and Hamas to the ICC for potential war crimes
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
How many people did who rape?
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
How many people did who rape?
Maybe you can answer that. How many people did Israel kill, take hostage, remove from their homes? How much land has Israel stolen/occupied?
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
How many people did who rape?
Maybe you can answer that. How many people did Israel kill, take hostage, remove from their homes? How much land has Israel stolen/occupied?
You answered my question with a question you numpty!
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Now wilts how many people did who rape?
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Now wilts how many people did who rape?
He was talking about Hamas, so.... maybe you can say how many were raped. Then compare that to the Israeli murdering.
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BRR you are morose ! I don’t read your purile posts and I am not engaging with you, now do us all a favour and put your head in the Gas oven!
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Lots of powerful and ordinary people have opinions on what is happening, the biggest problem is that Israel are just sticking two fingers up to everyone and getting on with what they said they would do at the start, turning it into rubble.
The big surprise is that a prime minister and a government is carrying out exactly what they said they would do, and it has come as a shock to most of us who have been used to listening to broken promises and statements for so long.
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When a nation is subjected to it's people suffering atrocities such as this then all rules surrounded conflict go out of the window .
That's how Hamas justified their attack. How they had been treated in Gaza and the West Bank for the past 30 years. And the murder of thousands of women, children and babies in the current offensive - how many people did they rape?
Extremists excusing committing atrocities to justify committing atrocities. Welcome to the club tyke.
How many people did who rape?
How much land has Israel stolen/occupied?
Not according to this Arab - Israeli
https://youtu.be/R1cVsyUXxYM?si=Vnveo7vHoHDiAyPZ
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Hamas Terrorist under Israeli interrogation tells of his role in the October 7th massacre .
Not for the faint hearted .
https://youtu.be/GFVAOPSgwYo?si=w_bppQUYGzqwLiuG
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BRR you are morose ! I don’t read your purile posts and I am not engaging with you, now do us all a favour and put your head in the Gas oven!
What an absolute puerile plonker :lol:
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BRR you are morose ! I don’t read your purile posts and I am not engaging with you, now do us all a favour and put your head in the Gas oven!
Bit less of this please. It's f**king disgusting in any context. In this one it's way, way beyond acceptable.
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BRR you are morose ! I don’t read your purile posts and I am not engaging with you, now do us all a favour and put your head in the Gas oven!
Bit less of this please. It's f**king disgusting in any context. In this one it's way, way beyond acceptable.
BRR liked your post Billy well done!
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The barefaced hypocrisy continues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NKMMpZayw
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They certainly put Israelis in their place!
The ICJ ordered Israel to take a series of measures against potentially genocidal acts against Palestinians in Gaza. These include measures not only on the battlefield but also against public incitement to genocide. It also ordered Israel to take "immediate and effective measures" to enable the provision of aid to people in Gaza.
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The UN have sacked staff that joined in with the attack in October with Hamas on the Israeli settlements proof of which caused the USA to withdraw funding to the UN.
Israel are not going to take any notice of court judgments and UN instructions they will prove them to be sterile entities, much the same as Russia has done in the Ukraine a war that is just as unjust and cruel that no outside influence has had any effect on since it started.
The UN and Court of Justice just make people who want their political sympathies feel better, and achieve little except being a nice little earner for the elite.
Russia and Israel have really completely ignored them and any judgments, as African countries by the dozen, Iran, Syria, Isis, North Korea, have and us and the USA have done for years, the only difference is Gaza is nearer home, is a religious war that has existed for thousands of years, is a total war with no give at all, and hits economies of the European countries and the fact that the muslim communities have infiltrated by mass emigration to Europe and the USA and infiltrated political parties while not assimilating other western cultures and forcing their culture on political parties and education and have played a political and media sympathy programme since they attacked Israel.
The difference in the invasion of Ukraine, and world opinion, compared with the Gaza situation, one a no questions asked an attack on a sovereign countries agreed borders, and the other a response to an invasion of a countries sovereign borders and inhuman acts against its population men, women, and children, begs the question why the difference? Is it just the wo is me? or the better playing of the world media because they have over time infiltrated the political parties and law makers and education and media in the western world?
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Still got diarrhea then selby?
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Why do people keep using terms like "the elite" and "the woke"?
Why can't they write what they mean? "People I don't like".
It's like when people used to say stuff was "PC" when what they actually meant was "Not being a Kitson like me".
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The ICJ basically taking the UK approach. No calls for ceasefire from them it should be noted. But Israel has the right to defend itself against a terrorist organisation that murdered, raped and burned alive 1200 of its citizens. And has said it will do it again and again. And has also said that humanitarian aid will fund its jihad.
South Africa “we have to get involved” but are very selective with their world policing.
They do joint naval exercises with Russia and have said nothing of the genocidal activities in China involving the Uyghurs. Where they work in camps and the women are sterilised.
“Last year, out of 43 countries, only two in Africa, Eswatini and Liberia, signed a U.N. communique condemning China's policies in Xinjiang. In June, they signed again, but they are rare outliers.
South Africa, the continent's third-largest economy, neither signed the letter supporting China's position nor staked out a position critical of China. Analysts told VOA that South Africa — seen as the continent's leading democracy — has simply mostly remained silent on the issue.”
https://www.voanews.com/amp/why-african-nations-are-mostly-silent-on-china-s-rights-record-/6760590.html
This ticks a lot of boxes for genocide but I don’t think I’ve seen the usual crowd mention it on here. Thought leader Corbyn no tweets about it either.
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how much of that got mentioned in court nc?
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how much of that got mentioned in court nc?
Read the Court transcript ya lazy whinging Pomm!
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Oh Dear! How sad! Never mind!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/uk-pauses-aid-funding-over-claims-un-staff-were-involved-in-hamas-attack/ar-BB1hlovJ?ocid=sapphireappshare
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Oh Dear!
https://www.ft.com/content/7d8f44db-4c72-4cf7-837b-ca6781ccf4ff
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The ICJ basically taking the UK approach. No calls for ceasefire from them it should be noted. But Israel has the right to defend itself against a terrorist organisation that murdered, raped and burned alive 1200 of its citizens. And has said it will do it again and again. And has also said that humanitarian aid will fund its jihad.
South Africa “we have to get involved” but are very selective with their world policing.
They do joint naval exercises with Russia and have said nothing of the genocidal activities in China involving the Uyghurs. Where they work in camps and the women are sterilised.
“Last year, out of 43 countries, only two in Africa, Eswatini and Liberia, signed a U.N. communique condemning China's policies in Xinjiang. In June, they signed again, but they are rare outliers.
South Africa, the continent's third-largest economy, neither signed the letter supporting China's position nor staked out a position critical of China. Analysts told VOA that South Africa — seen as the continent's leading democracy — has simply mostly remained silent on the issue.”
https://www.voanews.com/amp/why-african-nations-are-mostly-silent-on-china-s-rights-record-/6760590.html
This ticks a lot of boxes for genocide but I don’t think I’ve seen the usual crowd mention it on here. Thought leader Corbyn no tweets about it either.
Running this kind of whataboutery for a country that has just been found to have a case to answer for genocide is strange behaviour. China has been under sanctions from the West for years over its genocide of the Uyghurs. The West is actively funding and supporting the genocide in Palestine. That's the difference.
The West will cut off aid based on Israeli claims about a fraction of a percent of UNRWA staff, but when presented with direct video and audio evidence of Israeli war crimes - bombing hospitals, murdering civilians, desecrating holy sites, digging up cemeteries, abducting children and subjecting them to torture, rape, and so on - all of a sudden we can't rush to judgments, and these things are complicated, and it's all Hamas fault anyway.
I think if any prominent figure from any major party had the moral courage to try and apply any kind of diplomatic pressure to Israel whatsoever, you'd see far fewer protests and much less anger on the streets. Our body politic is already trying to hold China to account - so why would people protest? Imagine if that same pressure was applied to Israel. Imagine if we stopped Netanyahu back channeling funds to Hamas - that'd be a start.
The fact that the Uyghurs only ever get brought up when trying to excuse Muslims being wiped out in the occupied territories is grotesque, by the way. Start a thread on the Uyghurs, write your MP, do some protesting if you care so strongly about it.
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There are 13,000 UNWRA staff in Gaza all no on a nice little earner at our expense, 12 identified soo far as taking part in the attack, that is just the tip of the Iceberg, stop their wages stop their supply and give an ultimatum, they between then wil know the exact locations of every Israeli Hostage in Gaza,Give em 24 hours! But get a wiring diagram of the Management and sack them immediately!
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Thanks MM.
It is hypocritical from SA, you can’t deny that.
I’ll reflect on what you’ve said though, I likely have a few blind spots on the whole issue.
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how much of that got mentioned in court nc?
Read the Court transcript ya lazy whinging Pomm!
The only thing that matters is the ruling sprot, keep that central to everything you think about.
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how much of that got mentioned in court nc?
Read the Court transcript ya lazy whinging Pomm!
The only thing that matters is the ruling sprot, keep that central to everything you think about.
[/quot
Why?
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Thanks MM.
It is hypocritical from SA, you can’t deny that.
I’ll reflect on what you’ve said though, I likely have a few blind spots on the whole issue.
It is - they are in a trade agreement with Russia. All being fair they should be putting pressure on the rest of the BRICS group to at least apply some pressure to Russia and China. Ultimately they are small potatoes next to those two nations so not sure how well that would work out.
I appreciate you being fair minded on the issue, at least. A few on this thread could do with following your example, but sadly I think a few posters get a bit too giddy at the thought of Muslims being killed, frankly.
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Hey Syd! Penny Wong and Albinese have also seen some sense
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/countries-halt-funding-to-unrwa-over-claim-staff-involved-in-hamas-attack/
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so what's your point sprot?
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Accusing SA of hypocrisy is missing the point. There is anyway a huge difference between what Russia is doing and what Israel is doing. But, the key point being missed by a few here is apartheid, racial genocide. That is SAs personal history. So that is why they, of all nations, are right to have taken the case to the court. And then multiply it by several times as Israel was the major sponsor of the Apartheid Regime in SA. I wonder why they were?
Keep up.
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so what's your point sprot?
I was just updating you on what your fellow ‘Wet Lettuces’were up to in you adopted homeland!
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What are the happy clappy Zionists Starmer and Sunak saying about the ICJ ruling?
It appears that without immediate u-turns they are complicit with or even guilty of genocide in their vociferous support for Netanyahu, and continuing facilitating IDF action eg still selling arms to them.
To be labelled as international terrorists might not be a plus for electioneering.
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What are the happy clappy Zionists Starmer and Sunak saying about the ICJ ruling?
It appears that without immediate u-turns they are complicit with or even guilty of genocide in their vociferous support for Netanyahu, and continuing facilitating IDF action eg still selling arms to them.
To be labelled as international terrorists might not be a plus for electioneering.
The ICJ said that Israel should work to prevent acts of genocide, not that they are currently committing genocide didn’t it?
There’s quite a few extreme Israelis who aren’t helping the situation. But like with Hamas and the Palestinians, this doesn’t represent the entire mood of their people.
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ncRover,
The ICJ ruling was never going to decide that acts of genocide were being committed at this stage.
It was a preliminary hearing to determine whether there is a case to answer....and there is!
The process of considering further detailed evidence will take some time, probably years.
The importance of the ruling is that it places third party suppliers to Israel under notice that acts of complicity should be avoided.
No-one was expecting the deranged Israeli government to change tack, unless and until the international community reacts by sanctioning Israel for non compliance.
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And of course all those party to the genocide convention must do all they can in the prevention of it.
''Genocide was first recognised as a crime under international law in 1946 by the United Nations General Assembly (A/RES/96-I). It was codified as an independent crime in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the Genocide Convention)''
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=Genocide%20was%20first%20recognised%20as,Genocide%20(the%20Genocide%20Convention).
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I will give it you Syd and Billy you suffer well, you have both been at it for years, and now the Rovers are at Billy on the other forum.
Just have a break and forget your morbid lives, enjoy it while you can you will be a slave or dead shortly if some predictions are correct.
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then it's good that you are a such lousy predictor of the future selby and forgetful of the past.
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Yes NC, the ICJ ruling is an interim one. So far they have upheld the complaint and emphasised actions to be taken eg to avoid killing civilians etc. You can Google the rest. Israel is bound by this. The US and UK and bound to stop supporting Israel in any acts of genocide which is all very clear.
Israel hasn't changed tack, thereby being in violation of the ICJ to which it is a signed up member. Starmer, Sunak and Biden have gone quiet. I wonder what's next?
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Actually Starmer might be quiet but is not inactive. He's suspended an MP, Kate Osamor, for naming the Israeli action in Gaza as genocide - the day after the ICJ ruled that there is a plausible, credible case of genocide there. She even later apologised (unnecessarily) for mentioning that alongside mentioning the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany, but was still suspended.
And note that the UNRWA issue was publicised by Israel on the same day as the ICJ ruling despite having known all the info for weeks/months. Cynical media manipulation? Surely not. And the BBC, western media lapped this up. Sick. Israel have wanted shot of UNRWA for decades, primarily to oust Palestinians.
More so, by impeding and restricting the humanitarian assistance to Gaza an act of genocide is being committed. As said, this is like suspending funding to the NHS because Lucy Letby killed babies. The US is now more than complicit in genocide, it is a genocidal nation. Tories support this move, as do Labour - UK lapdogs, shameful, disgusting, embarressing. The perspective is that 12 out of 13,000 are being investigated for potentially taking part on the Oct 7th attack.
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Yes NC, the ICJ ruling is an interim one. So far they have upheld the complaint and emphasised actions to be taken eg to avoid killing civilians etc. You can Google the rest. Israel is bound by this. The US and UK and bound to stop supporting Israel in any acts of genocide which is all very clear.
Israel hasn't changed tack, thereby being in violation of the ICJ to which it is a signed up member. Starmer, Sunak and Biden have gone quiet. I wonder what's next?
We’ll see. I’m happy to admit I’m wrong if so.
You mention civilian deaths, but I think a case will be very hard to conclude on in that respect.
For example:
- According to the Gazan health ministry, how many Hamas fighters have been killed?
- According to the Gazan health ministry, how many Palestinians have been killed by Hamas rockets?
- What is the percentage of civilian deaths in this war compared to other wars? Yes it is a war, Hamas are firing rockets all the time they just don’t make it through.
Again, this is just me taking a sceptical approach to the general thinking on this thread, it’s a good way to help find out the truth for me on things. That’s why I ask you lot questions, it’s more informative than watching the news because there’s an array of political stances.
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Yes, lots of IDF dead too. It is a war.
How many Gazan civilians do you think are murdered by Israel so far? It's not hard to see, to discern, beyond the insane Israeli propaganda is it.
Do you agree with the ICJ position? Do you think Israel should abide by that since a few days back? Do you think the Western backers, funders, abettors of Israel should be acting in accordance?
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Actually Starmer might be quiet but is not inactive. He's suspended an MP, Kate Osamor, for naming the Israeli action in Gaza as genocide - the day after the ICJ ruled that there is a plausible, credible case of genocide there. She even later apologised (unnecessarily) for mentioning that alongside mentioning the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany, but was still suspended.
And note that the UNRWA issue was publicised by Israel on the same day as the ICJ ruling despite having known all the info for weeks/months. Cynical media manipulation? Surely not. And the BBC, western media lapped this up. Sick. Israel have wanted shot of UNRWA for decades, primarily to oust Palestinians.
More so, by impeding and restricting the humanitarian assistance to Gaza an act of genocide is being committed. As said, this is like suspending funding to the NHS because Lucy Letby killed babies. The US is now more than complicit in genocide, it is a genocidal nation. Tories support this move, as do Labour - UK lapdogs, shameful, disgusting, embarressing. The perspective is that 12 out of 13,000 are being investigated for potentially taking part on the Oct 7th attack.
Before I reply to your other post due to being short of time.
You liked Macho’s post saying mine was whataboutery but you can get behind Kate’s words here?
Holocaust Memorial Day is a specific day of remembrance to commemorate and reflect on the fact that the Nazis systematically murdered 6 millions Jews and would have ethnically cleansed them off the face of the earth had they had their way. Along with 5 million prisoners of war.
If she performed similar whataboutery and inversion on any other Memorial Day / day dedicated to minorities she would be jumped on as a heretic by her fellow “progressives”.
And you I bet you wonder why everybody else thinks the left have an antisemitism problem.
It’s disgusting and Starmer is right to suspend her.
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Holocaust Memorial Day is openly, and has always been, inclusive of other genocides. It lists several on its homepage. https://www.hmd.org.uk/
Suspending someone for including Gaza in that list, when an international court has just found Israel has a case to answer for genocide and is under provisional orders to prevent it from occurring, isn't disgusting.
Now, I agree the Holocaust is unique in the way it systematically, methodically murdered people like working numbers through a spreadsheet. There are whole branches of my family tree I'll never meet because of it. It stands alone as an achievement of human cruelty. But the memorial day has always brought in other genocides around the world. Never Again means Never Again after all - apart from when it's politically convenient, apparently.
Really though, this is nowt to do with any of that, and everything to do with internal Labour Party factional bullshit.
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That adds a huge chunk of perspective MM
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Spot on MM, very well put.
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The IDF claims it has eliminated over 2k Hamas fighters. Interesting how that leaves 25k others dead, can't be the IDF were inaccurate with their killing?
Anyway, I was wondering how many Palestinian fighters they have created with extreme hatred for Israel, now and for the future. I suspect a great many more than that 2k, and more extreme too.
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Yes, I think Israel should not carry out acts of genocide and should stop increasing its territory by creep in the West Bank and Gaza. And they should deal with settler violence and heinous crimes.
Any situation that treats human life as a cheap commodity to be thrown away makes me sad. And the images and reports that come from Gaza are tragic.
We have to recognise the full situation and how things got to the point where they are in order for things not to escalate further.
I’m glad we can agree that this is a war. Now, are all victors of every war in history guilty of genocide?
Firstly, without the Iron Dome we would see far far more deaths in this war. That’s a good thing.
Without taking into account the Gazans who were killed by Hamas rockets and by Hamas itself, the ratio is, at the most, 1.8 civilians for every Hamas terrorist killed. (From UK lawyers for Israel).
Figures from the UN for previous wars are as high as 9 civilians for every combatant.
Then throw in the human shield behaviour of Hamas as another factor.
Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. But then the anti-Israel crowd just beats Israel with a stick saying this is displacement.
And now that Israeli special forces assassinate a Hamas terrorist in a hospital without any civilian casualties you still have Owen Jones complaining? On these people just want Israel to be defenceless? Do you?
Israel is taking more measures to limit civilian casualties than any other war in history. Their measures are summarised here: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
I echo the thoughts of the writer. These civilian deaths are a very bad thing.
I also think Palestine should recognise its historical warmongering in the context of the changing borders of that region too. You can say the land was “stolen” all you like, but the UN gave it to Israel in 1948. They started a war in 1967 too. Hamas generals live a life of safety and comfort while putting Gazans in danger and saying they will do it again and again.
20% of Israel’s population are Arab Muslims with equal rights. I haven’t seen many “anti-Zionist” posters on here explain that about Israel in a way that is consistent with their view of Israel being an apartheid state.
One last question.
What would be a non-Zionist way of Israel defending itself?
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Holocaust Memorial Day is openly, and has always been, inclusive of other genocides. It lists several on its homepage. https://www.hmd.org.uk/
Suspending someone for including Gaza in that list, when an international court has just found Israel has a case to answer for genocide and is under provisional orders to prevent it from occurring, isn't disgusting.
Now, I agree the Holocaust is unique in the way it systematically, methodically murdered people like working numbers through a spreadsheet. There are whole branches of my family tree I'll never meet because of it. It stands alone as an achievement of human cruelty. But the memorial day has always brought in other genocides around the world. Never Again means Never Again after all - apart from when it's politically convenient, apparently.
Really though, this is nowt to do with any of that, and everything to do with internal Labour Party factional bullshit.
You always voice and explain your opinion well MM.
She knew it would antagonise and provoke Jewish people. People who are the primary victims remembered in the certain day of memorial.
For a political movement (progressivism) that is predicated on outing any sort of discrimination, the disgust from me comes in realising that they do not hold Jewish people to the same standard.
She would not provoke any other minority in a similar way. That makes it more insidious in my opinion.
The Jewish Labour Movement didn’t like it, and who are we to tell them how to feel on such a day?
As I’ve said before Israel / Palestine is not a black and white Oppressor / Oppressed dynamic
The issue comes when acts of self-defence are conflated with the accusations of genocide. And self-defence is another thing that Jews are obviously held to a different standard on.
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Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.
Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.
It's not acts of self defence, it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials, IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.
Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.
So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.
Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?
What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.
I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?
It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.
https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD
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I'd recommend not watching this vid, but if anyone out there is supporting Israel in any way, listen. So disturbing.
A girl talking to the Red Cresent. In fear, hiding in a car when an IDF tank is next to her. She claims they are shooting at her. And then you hear the machine gun shots as she is apparently shot dead. Her 6 year old sister still trapped in the car continues to speak (not on this recording) asking for people to come for her, to help her. Pure evil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erPIGgnUv08
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Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.
Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.
It's not acts of self defence, it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials, IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.
Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.
So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.
Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?
What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.
I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?
It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.
https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD
Why on earth would the Israelis give the Palestinians so much as a blade of grass ?
Other than the airspace the Israelis walked away from Gaza and let the Palestinians have their state .
The first thing the Palestinians did was to elect a terrorist organisation as their government .
Hamas then proceeded to weed out and execute practically anybody who didn't agree with them and paraded the mutilated corpses in the streets of Gaza City .
What are we now in to a Hamas government ? , 18 years is it ?
I bet the Gaza education system in that length of time have produced some real pillars of society , behead Jews , jihad , learn to fire rockets over the border from military points disguised as hospitals , some one day may even land on Israeli soil , you never know .
Fair to say the Palestinians had the opportunity to build a successful state , God knows they had enough money given to them to do just that but instead opted to be a terror state instead whilst their leaders bought mansions in neighbouring states with the money .
Mind you building a successful Islamic State fit for purpose in this day and age is perhaps pushing it no matter how much money is given .
Perhaps the Egyptians could offer a helping hand ? , Israel isn't the only border surrounding Gaza .
Wait a minute , they've tried that before and the Palestinians seem to bring nowt but trouble on their little expeditions in that region as they did in Lebanon , Jordan and Syria .
Not difficult to see who exactly are the problem is it when you dig down in to the weeds .
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Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
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Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.
Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.
It's not acts of self defence, it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials, IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.
Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.
So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.
Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?
What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.
I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?
It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.
https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD
Why do I need skin in the game? “This person doesn’t agree with me so must be a selfish person who gains benefit somehow.” No I’m just interested in the truth of things. Not following the knee jerk angry mob that were shouting genocide before Israel even retaliated after Oct 7th.
You can’t accuse me of falling for propaganda if you can’t answer the questions in post #933.
Perhaps you could answer my question about how Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and have the same rights in an apartheid state. I’ve asked you about 3 times now.
Can you answer my question about war too?
I posted the efforts of Israel to minimise civilian casualties because that isn’t the behaviour of a state trying to commit genocide. Do Hamas try to limit Palestinian casualties by tunneling under schools, hospitals and mosques along with firing their rockets from civilian areas?
Israel’s tactics and long term strategy are debatable, yes. But if your ideal personal endgame for this conflict was to come true and Israel wasn’t allowed to defend itself because it shouldn’t exist, the loss of life would be far far greater. They would all be indiscriminately murdered by the millions by Hamas and Hezbollah. And what would you say then?
Unless you have evidence that Jews have ever been able to live in the Middle East alongside Muslims without facing religious persecution?
Or maybe you think Israel can exist and that it should just choose pacifism against those who carried out Oct 7th and continue to launch missiles at its people? Those who believe in martyrdom and vow to attack over and over again. So ultimately it would lead to the same genocidal outcome.
To quote Sam Harris speaking on this “Pacifism only works against a morally sane adversary”.
Being sceptical of information from Jihadists is perfectly reasonable.
Yet a lot of people are now starting to deny anything wrong even took place on October 7th, does that not upset or concern you?
https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1753108773676495166?s=46
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Sadly a member of staff from our company got sacked. They tweeted that the Palestine suffering is a hoax, and then also called black people parasites. Rightly so they were sacked
Oohhh hang on no it was BBC employee who called the holocaust a hoax and white people parasites, and they've still got a job at the taxpayer funded impartiality machine
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bbc-employee-called-jewish-people-nazis-and-whites-parasites/ar-BB1hCO05
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?
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Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.
Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .
But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .
Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .
You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .
Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .
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What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.
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What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.
How do you think you come across on this site?
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What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.
How do you think you come across on this site?
Left to far left, bombastic on occasions, opinionated, reasonably politically aware, really really care about others in not as fortunate as myself for any reason, don't suffer fools and you nc?
one thing that maybe can't be seen from the forum, I'm not a bystander.
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?
It's the one that has exposed a number of far-right terrorists and far-right sex-offenders - is that the same one? Can't think who might want to demean it's work?
Which Police forces btw?
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What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.
How do you think you come across on this site?
Left to far left, bombastic on occasions, opinionated, reasonably politically aware, really really care about others in not as fortunate as myself for any reason, don't suffer fools and you nc?
one thing that maybe can't be seen from the forum, I'm not a bystander.
Ok…
What made you emigrate to Australia over left and far-left countries such as Venezuela and Cuba?
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Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books down and show me who your are
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Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books down and show me who your are
Do you mean his user name before he re-registered?
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Oh dear not another
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Excuse me? I’ve never had another profile
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Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books down and show me who your are
Do you mean his user name before he re-registered?
Wilts, have you any information which might suggest that nc did have another profile on this site.
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Good, you're back, while you're deciding what to tell me about yourself nc, remember the discussion only a short while ago where you appeared to be totally ignorant about the plight of the American Negro and racism in the US, did you follow it up and get yourself informed about it?
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There's def a lack of give and take on the forum, some want to hand out shit and banter and are totally gobsmacked when you give it back, others want to know everything but give nothing back at all, there you go aye?
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There's def a lack of give and take on the forum, some want to hand out shit and banter and are totally gobsmacked when you give it back, others want to know everything but give nothing back at all, there you go aye?
Wow, Syd, you have just described your forum persona.
You missed that bit off your self description on the Israel thread.
Aye.
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And you wonder why you're labelled troll hound, aye?
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Good, you're back, while you're deciding what to tell me about yourself nc, remember the discussion only a short while ago where you appeared to be totally ignorant about the plight of the American Negro and racism in the US, did you follow it up and get yourself informed about it?
Right, so asking questions and asking you to go more in depth about how you reached your conclusion is ignorant?
Yes, I did have a read in to it. I think they should make sure everyone has equal access to the ballot. It said both Democrats and Republicans are guilty of gerrymandering. If I was American I’d vote Democrat. But anyway, I know you don’t like straying off topic!
I asked how you view yourself because I think you’re a nasty and hypocritical piece of work.
And that’s not because I disagree with you on most things. I have time and respect for other posters with different views.
I don’t agree with Tyke on much else (judging by his other posts) but I’ll still stick up for him and let him voice his opinion without getting bullied and insulted by you.
I think don’t I’ve ever seen you effectively argue your point in a constructive or respectable way. Everything is just snideness, sarcasm and Guardian links. I don’t get that with BST, MM, wilts, selby, hound (thanks for sticking up) or even BRR to an extent. Even early on you used to try make me feel like I should shut up just because I was new.
I’d say I’m a liberal in an economic and social sense, but I try to each my own conclusions rather than the ones I feel I should. So I’d say I’m open-minded but pragmatic about the world.
I’m also a Rovers season ticket holder and like to contribute to the forum in that sense too.
I used to view this forum as a guest without posting but thought I’d get more involved and join a few years ago, after the family member I used to go to games with passed away.
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And you wonder why you're labelled troll hound, aye?
No, I don’t Syd.
Only you and a couple of your mates have used that word against me, and to be honest I expect nothing less from them anyway.
Have a look in the mirror before you make that accusation.
You yourself troll several posters.
BB, sproty,selby,nc, tyke etc etc all suffer from your mundane trolling.
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For what it's worth I think, as I've intimated that you get your ideas straight from books and come on here to test out your theories and make very silly statements, again out of ignorance (meaning unknowing not an insult)
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Syd I'm sure you have been asked before, why do you use aye a lot and what do you see as it's meaning In many cases it seems totally out of context with what you are saying
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?
It's the one that has exposed a number of far-right terrorists and far-right sex-offenders - is that the same one? Can't think who might want to demean it's work?
Which Police forces btw?
I don't know the specific police forces in question other than the investigation concerns allegations of intimidation and bullying , I do say allegations .
Surely you yourself would want such allegations investigated and any wrong doing ended , wouldn't you ? .
There have been a high number of sex offender scandals in this country across all communities .
Do Hope And Hate investigate them all ?
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Syd I'm sure you have been asked before, why do you use aye a lot and what do you see as it's meaning In many cases it seems totally out of context with what you are saying
It comes from NZers, it's used as a way (in my case) to try and get a response, the extended version is aye what do you think?
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?
It's the one that has exposed a number of far-right terrorists and far-right sex-offenders - is that the same one? Can't think who might want to demean it's work?
Which Police forces btw?
I don't know the specific police forces in question other than the investigation concerns allegations of intimidation and bullying , I do say allegations .
Surely you yourself would want such allegations investigated and any wrong doing ended , wouldn't you ? .
There have been a high number of sex offender scandals in this country across all communities .
Do Hope And Hate investigate them all ?
Odd that a socialist would choose to use an epithet used by far right activists to besmirch an anti-racist/anti-fascist group.
Almost as if...
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Syd I'm sure you have been asked before, why do you use aye a lot and what do you see as it's meaning In many cases it seems totally out of context with what you are saying
It comes from NZers, it's used as a way (in my case) to try and get a response, the extended version is aye what do you think?
I think it just baffles people
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''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)
''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.
The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.
Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''
https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds
Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?
It's the one that has exposed a number of far-right terrorists and far-right sex-offenders - is that the same one? Can't think who might want to demean it's work?
Which Police forces btw?
I don't know the specific police forces in question other than the investigation concerns allegations of intimidation and bullying , I do say allegations .
Surely you yourself would want such allegations investigated and any wrong doing ended , wouldn't you ? .
There have been a high number of sex offender scandals in this country across all communities .
Do Hope And Hate investigate them all ?
Odd that a socialist would choose to use an epithet used by far right activists to besmirch an anti-racist/anti-fascist group.
Almost as if...
It's nothing to do with political leanings Billy , it's more to do with what's right and what's wrong .
Sex offences are deplorable no matter who commits them , there's no difference between the likes of Jimmy Saville or what happened in Rochdale or Rotherham .
What matters is that these scandals are investigated , investigated irrespective of who the alleged perpetrators are and without fear of allegations made against them for that may prevent that .
This also applies to hate shouted on UK streets no matter who the culprits are .
Is there anything I've posted that you don't agree with ?
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Tyke.
You've totally ignored what I posted. Why do you use a far right insult?
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All you have to do tyke, is produce the allegations, the links, proof anything at all,
in your own time of course
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Or you could tell us the website where you found it tyke and I'll have a look for you?
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Or you could tell us the website where you found it tyke and I'll have a look for you?
Wow that’s kind of you Sydders being as you don’t normally bother providing any evidence for the tripe you post on here!Aye Aye me hearty!
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Hey sprot what sort of evidence is this?
''Oh dear how sad , never mind My heart bleeds for
The libertarians who voted for Brexit all 5 of them!
Definition of a Libertine “ a person, especially a man, who freely indulges in sensual pleasures without regard to moral principles:”''
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Hey sprot what sort of evidence is this?
''Oh dear how sad , never mind My heart bleeds for
The libertarians who voted for Brexit all 5 of them!
Definition of a Libertine “ a person, especially a man, who freely indulges in sensual pleasures without regard to moral principles:”''
If that cap fits you Sydders wear it with PRIDE!
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Come on sprot don't be a goose all your forum life, you (like a lot of others too) made a dumb mistake when going on the attack without thinking, just admit it and move on.
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Come on sprot don't be a goose all your forum life, you (like a lot of others too) made a dumb mistake when going on the attack without thinking, just admit it and move on.
Oh did I???
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Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books :silly: down and show me who your are
Do you mean his user name before he re-registered?
Wilts, have you any information which might suggest that nc did have another profile on this site.
Wilts?
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While you're here nc and maybe have settled down a bit, I'll have a little bet with you, if you're game that is.
You know you say I bully him and you think I try to stop him speaking, well you go through my back catalogue and every time you find that I have denied tyke the right to speak I'll put ₤100 into the food bank as long as each time you find he says I shouldn't because of where I live you put in ₤50. Deal?
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I'll give you a couple of minutes to make your mind up, I wouldn't want to think you are checking it out first like?
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That would be subjective wouldn’t it? You’d just argue to the far end of a fart over that as well. I’ve got better things to do.
You’re a troll. If you ran a poll to see who is more of one it would be a comprehensive result. Even then you decided you jump on wilts’ unsubstantiated comment and gang up on me.
I’d think you’d know your place when harassing me. Remember that time I called you out so hard you had to take 4 or 5 months off the forum? And still I was more polite then than you are in any standard argumentative reply.
I’m done with you and I decided I was the other day.
Leave me alone.
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That would be subjective wouldn’t it? You’d just argue to the far end of a fart over that as well. I’ve got better things to do.
You’re a troll. If you ran a poll to see who is more of one it would be a comprehensive result. Even then you decided you jump on wilts’ unsubstantiated comment and gang up on me.
I’d think you’d know your place when harassing me. Remember that time I called you out so hard you had to take 4 or 5 months off the forum? And still I was more polite then than you are in any standard argumentative reply.
I’m done with you and I decided I was the other day.
Leave me alone.
You and tyke appear to have quite a bit in common, you make comments you can't support.
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Look how tyke dealt the the report about racism in his town, what does he do, instead of calling it out he makes unsubstantiated slurs against an important organisation, then drags in all sorts of other shit as though it makes his argument, do you think this sort of behaviour should go unchallenged nc?
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That would be subjective wouldn’t it? You’d just argue to the far end of a fart over that as well. I’ve got better things to do.
You’re a troll. If you ran a poll to see who is more of one it would be a comprehensive result. Even then you decided you jump on wilts’ unsubstantiated comment and gang up on me.
I’d think you’d know your place when harassing me. Remember that time I called you out so hard you had to take 4 or 5 months off the forum? And still I was more polite then than you are in any standard argumentative reply.
I’m done with you and I decided I was the other day.
Leave me alone.
You and tyke appear to have quite a bit in common, you make comments you can't support.
You make comments you never support!
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smarting for making a fool of yourself yet again sprot, will you ever grow up
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Where's the Israeli style peace action when you need it? :laugh:
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Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.
Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .
But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .
Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .
You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .
Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .
Your comments in that post were racist. Nasty. I'm playing no card, just telling you to take a breath, read what you said, and think. Check out what you said about the Palestinian education system for a start.
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Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.
Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.
It's not acts of self defence, it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials, IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.
Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.
So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.
Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?
What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.
I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?
It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.
https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD
Why do I need skin in the game? “This person doesn’t agree with me so must be a selfish person who gains benefit somehow.” No I’m just interested in the truth of things. Not following the knee jerk angry mob that were shouting genocide before Israel even retaliated after Oct 7th.
You can’t accuse me of falling for propaganda if you can’t answer the questions in post #933.
Perhaps you could answer my question about how Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and have the same rights in an apartheid state. I’ve asked you about 3 times now.
Can you answer my question about war too?
I posted the efforts of Israel to minimise civilian casualties because that isn’t the behaviour of a state trying to commit genocide. Do Hamas try to limit Palestinian casualties by tunneling under schools, hospitals and mosques along with firing their rockets from civilian areas?
Israel’s tactics and long term strategy are debatable, yes. But if your ideal personal endgame for this conflict was to come true and Israel wasn’t allowed to defend itself because it shouldn’t exist, the loss of life would be far far greater. They would all be indiscriminately murdered by the millions by Hamas and Hezbollah. And what would you say then?
Unless you have evidence that Jews have ever been able to live in the Middle East alongside Muslims without facing religious persecution?
Or maybe you think Israel can exist and that it should just choose pacifism against those who carried out Oct 7th and continue to launch missiles at its people? Those who believe in martyrdom and vow to attack over and over again. So ultimately it would lead to the same genocidal outcome.
To quote Sam Harris speaking on this “Pacifism only works against a morally sane adversary”.
Being sceptical of information from Jihadists is perfectly reasonable.
Yet a lot of people are now starting to deny anything wrong even took place on October 7th, does that not upset or concern you?
https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1753108773676495166?s=46
NC. Your posts are long, ask several questions, so the points get lost in a forum such as this.
Skin in the game - I asked so as to get a sense of where you're coming from - family out there, Jewish connections,time spent in Israel.... who knows,
You diss people claiming genocide before the recent murdering. Its been going on for decades. What is the west bank scenario if not genocide?
Bring sceptical of info all round is wise. Being sceptical of info from a state surrounded by enemies that it has aggravated, and a state so wrapped up in internal delusion. That's the Israeli state. Do you think the Israeli health dept would be lying to you? The Israeli lawyers you refer to? The IDF? The many self declared fascists bent on genocide - they freaking say it loud and proud! - in the Israeli government? But you focus on not believing the Gazan health officials. That's not scepticism is it?
Jewz lived in Palastine before the invasion. It was fairly peaceful, had been for centuries. The invasion made it not peaceful. The invasion was, obviously, from the external Jews, Palestinian Jews mainly weren't wanting that.
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Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.
Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .
But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .
Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .
You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .
Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .
Your comments in that post were racist. Nasty. I'm playing no card, just telling you to take a breath, read what you said, and think. Check out what you said about the Palestinian education system for a start.
Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S a dozen times ( I've checked ) , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .
You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .
Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .
I made several points in my post that compelled you to call me a racist initially , none of which you've addressed , so I'll put some meat on the bones with the comments I made to substantiate that very post .
Let's start with the area that compelled you to accuse me of racism a second time relating to education in Gaza .
It's quite a tragic situation because the attainment amongst Palestinian children is quite high , unfortunately Religious Education seems to be placed above academic education , Human Rights Watch are investigating this .
Let's move on to my points you haven't addressed .
The amount of aid Gaza has received is $6bn and further funding since this conflict began is as follows :
US $95m directly and through UNRWA .
EU €80
Egypt $500m
Qatar $1.3bn
Yet before this conflict began 53% of the population of Gaza lived in poverty .
So the failed state assessment I made has some justification .
I also made a reference that quite a few Islamic State's fail and it's pretty reasonable to suggest that the creation of a new so called Palestinian State as part of a Two State solution would also fail .
They fail because of Modern Fundamental Islam which again teaches primarily religious education and has a huge aversion to intellectualism and science , business tends not to prosper under those conditions , a lack of democracy and corruption is also a major contributing factor .
Their hostility towards Israel is also a contributing factor when it comes to trade .
People who want to make a better life for themselves tend not to stay in Islamic State's and are prepared to risk their life to escape from them .
I made a point about Palestinians not too popular in neighbouring country's , the PLO were expelled from Jordan by King Hussein , which is understandable given they tried to assassinate him .
They were also kicked out of Lebanon when they became involved in the Lebanese civil war .
The PLO also supported Iraq in the first Gulf War , the invasion of Kuwait seemed fine by them apparently .
Today Egypt aren't willing to accept Palestinian refugees because they are fearful of security issues .
Do I think the Israelis are angels , no I don't , however with neighbours like that plus the other hostile Islamic State's surrounding them it's perfectly understandable why they are the way they are .
However to conclude perhaps if Palestinians or their elected terrorist organisation Hamas decided to refrain from murdering innocent Israelis and tried to make the state they do have a successful one they may find the Israelis more hospitable , 10k work visas for Palestinians who going to be made available for them to work in Israel subject to security clearance before this present conflict began and join 20% other Arabs in the prosperity Israel has created .
So much for genocide .
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Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S a dozen times ( I've checked ) , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .
You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .
Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .
Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,
You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.
So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".
The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...
"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation, maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."
A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.
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Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S a dozen times ( I've checked ) , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .
You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .
Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .
Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,
You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.
So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".
The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...
"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation, maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."
A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.
I didn’t see many Nazi Jews or Zionists getting raped and murdered on 7th October did you?
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Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S a dozen times ( I've checked ) , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .
You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .
Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .
Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,
You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.
So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".
The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...
"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation, maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."
A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.
Is that all you can muster on the points I raised ?
Attempting to hide behind technicalities when it's clear the level of hatred you have for Israel and a dig at Barnsley people .
Mind you it fits with the same sort of cowardice you clearly admire , terrorists hiding in tunnels and behind women and children and only dare show their face when they attack and murder innocent civilians before running back to hide once more .
What an embarrassing spectacle the left has become these last few months .
I could live with the rather romantic Palestinian support but when the left calendar suddenly jumped from October 6th to October 8th and missed a day out it was time to disassociate myself from these fruitcakes once it emerged what had occurred and the depths of deprivation that could only be carried out by sub humans .
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Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S a dozen times ( I've checked ) , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .
You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .
Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .
Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,
You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.
So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".
The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...
"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation, maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."
A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.
Is that all you can muster on the points I raised ?
Attempting to hide behind technicalities when it's clear the level of hatred you have for Israel and a dig at Barnsley people .
Mind you it fits with the same sort of cowardice you clearly admire , terrorists hiding in tunnels and behind women and children and only dare show their face when they attack and murder innocent civilians before running back to hide once more .
What an embarrassing spectacle the left has become these last few months .
I could live with the rather romantic Palestinian support but when the left calendar suddenly jumped from October 6th to October 8th and missed a day out it was time to disassociate myself from these fruitcakes once it emerged what had occurred and the depths of deprivation that could only be carried out by sub humans .
Oh dear, you can't read as well as can't count. Glad anyway to get your admission of telling porkies even if not man enough to apologise.
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....Self acknowledged porky pies.....
I made several points in my post that compelled you to call me a racist initially , none of which you've addressed , so I'll put some meat on the bones with the comments I made to substantiate that very post .
Let's start with the area that compelled you to accuse me of racism a second time relating to education in Gaza .
It's quite a tragic situation because the attainment amongst Palestinian children is quite high , unfortunately Religious Education seems to be placed above academic education , Human Rights Watch are investigating this .
Lets look at what you originally said that prompted me to call you racist:
I bet the Gaza education system in that length of time (18 years) have produced some real pillars of society , behead Jews , jihad , learn to fire rockets over the border from military points disguised as hospitals , some one day may even land on Israeli soil , you never know .
You are using a few specifics of the terrible actions of a few to entirely give content to your statement about the Palestinian education system. You provide no evidence of how even those few were taught those specific actions within the Palestnian education system. You also throw in the word Jihad deliberately using it in the context of the Western misuse of the term - racist in itself. Maybe you don't understand the term - add this to the list of not being able to count or read and we are building a picture, though obviously in engaging in dialogue here with you I am hoping for something better.
In fact you do now make the positive point of Palestinian children having high attainment, but then you make a judgemnt of the "religious" side of their education being a negative. Personally I don't rate religion of any kind. Spirituality is another story. Given the paucity of meat on the bones you have delivered, I can only make the link of your reference to religious education being about the beheading etc etc you used in a racist way in your earlier post. Sad you revert back there, at least as far as the lack of meat goes. My general experience of muslims is of people that are very generous, very engaged culturally, socially, locally, and politically, and their religious ways are fully entwined with that. Historically their academic abilities have been top of the tree by a long way, and that came hand in hand with their religion. So what you say there in your latter criticism doesn't fit. Now, if they are being taught beheading in schools, maybe you can give us the meat of your evidence.
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Looks like we are entering the end game in Gaza.
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/274119617/we-are-on-way-to-complete-victory-israel-pm-netanyahu-dismisses-hamas-proposals-for-ceasefire
Israelis refusing to negotiate a truce on any terms favourable to Hamas, seems they have completely annihilated 19 Hamas Battalions and are currently destroying the few that remain (6).
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Gosh, I hope nobody jumped to conclusions ..........
................ ''But Israel refuses to share either its evidence or the intelligence dossier – a summary of which was seen by FRANCE 24 – with UNRWA, posing a challenge for the UN agency as it tries to complete its inquiry''
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240205-as-donors-suspend-critical-funding-to-unrwa-allegations-against-staff-remain-murky
''Sixteen countries have suspended their funding to the agency following the allegations by Israel.
The U.N.'s oversight office is carrying out the investigation. UNRWA has said it acted quickly to address the allegations, with its head Philippe Lazzarini firing those allegedly involved and informing the U.N.'s secretary-general, as well as the United States and other donors.
Israel had informed Lazzarini of the accusations against the 12 staff members verbally, but other allegations were leaked to media that a larger number of UNRWA employees have Hamas links''
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unrwa-says-report-into-israeli-claims-against-staff-due-early-march-2024-02-06/#:~:text=Israel%20had%20informed%20Lazzarini%20of,UNRWA%20employees%20have%20Hamas%20links.
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It is going to go on and on until Israel say so, all they will do is refuse any exchange of hostages because of the demands in numbers by Hamas, Israel will want 1 to 1 while continuing the assault and Hamas will want the Earth to save face.
It isn't going to work this time also pressure is building on Egypt, Syria, Lebanon to take the Palestinians in and save their butt, something they themselves are reluctant to do while the Israeli's are solving their problems.
If they cared what happened to the Palestinian's they would have either been in there alongside them or opened the borders to refugees, although they might be hoping that problem will come to Europe.
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This is Israel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286
If you heard the recording I posted earlier, and now can see this report, from the BBC, including the deliberate targeting and destruction of the ambulance and crew sent to help, that even after coordinates of it being given to Israel, and a green light being given, if you can still back Israel, whoah. It's far from the only similar occurance of recent times but the graphic brutality recorded is stunning.
The UK is entirely complicit in this.
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An interesting article on the long game ...........
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history
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An interesting article on the long game ...........
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history
ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!
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An interesting article on the long game ...........
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history
ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!
I think you meant you'll post article by Hitler or Goebels, Pinochet or Thatcher, that parallel works. Although best deal with alive people for relevance eh?
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Funny that it is by someone called Kenan. :scarf:
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An interesting article on the long game ...........
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history
ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!
I think you meant you'll post article by Hitler or Goebels, Pinochet or Thatcher, that parallel works. Although best deal with alive people for relevance eh?
No I referred to Stalin!
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Stalin was a Marxist according to himself, hardly taking the important centre of Marxism. Kinda the same as Hitler or Netanyahu are humanitarians.
Relating to specifically to Malik - what is your point?
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But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.
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Typical that the mindless attack the person rather than what he wrote, nothing changes.
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Hmmm, I wonder how a kibbutz would be described in a political sense.
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But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.
BRR I don’t know what you are talking about. I ignore your Posts they are generally garbage!
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Hmmm, I wonder how a kibbutz would be described in a political sense.
have a go Syd
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sproty, I think the onus is on yourself and other within the vacuum to explain why you would dismiss a view because of your own shortcomings?
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But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.
BRR I don’t know what you are talking about. I ignore your Posts they are generally garbage!
It wasnt too hard to comprehend, and your evasion of that is desperate, and deceitful. Palestinian family murdered in cold blood by IDF tank ffs, and then the ambulance crew sent out to rescue the only survivor in that car, a 6 year old girl, were deliberately targeted and murdered by the IDF.
Too much for your brain. I understand.
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sproty, I think the onus is on yourself and other within the vacuum to explain why you would dismiss a view because of your own shortcomings?
Have a go Syd!
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I found this interesting today. Interesting and worrying.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv0vYtC-RUg
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Oborne is a voice of reason on the whole middle east question, from the start of this recent episode, NNK.
Also interesting is that the SNP have put in a ceasefire motion to be considered in the HoC shortly.
It will not pass, but it will show if people will deviate from their party line.
A free vote is the only reasonable approach on the issue.
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Oborne is a voice of reason on the whole middle east question, from the start of this recent episode, NNK.
Also interesting is that the SNP have put in a ceasefire motion to be considered in the HoC shortly.
It will not pass, but it will show if people will deviate from their party line.
A free vote is the only reasonable approach on the issue.
Yes, but even with a free vote, (unlikely), it won't pass. I'm not sure what it would take to stop the carnage out there as there doesn't seem to be a real desire on anyones part in the West to do so, and I fear that because of our stance we will likely feel the repercussions at some point in the future.
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You have to think more about why so many of our politicians and government are backing Israel. This vid by Doubledown News highlights a trail of power that Israel has in Britain, basically they have access to your NHS data, Police data and much much more. A government giving this amount of power away is not working for its people. Johnson is connectred, Sunak and wife are very connected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDuIVcWH2-U
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Oborne is a voice of reason on the whole middle east question, from the start of this recent episode, NNK.
Also interesting is that the SNP have put in a ceasefire motion to be considered in the HoC shortly.
It will not pass, but it will show if people will deviate from their party line.
A free vote is the only reasonable approach on the issue.
[/quote
The only issue I have with his allegations is that UNWRA immediately sacked 12 Staff! There is no smoke without fire Albie.
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What issue do you have Sproty?
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That Oborne video is eloquent and succinct. And he's hardly some tofu eating leftie.
So all of a sudden, just as the ICJ rules they have a case to answer for genocide, the IDF magic up a completely unsubstantiated dossier about the UNRWA, who they have wanted rid of for ages as it acts as the de facto welfare state in Gaza. Right.
Time and time and time again during this war, Israel has lied or made completely unsubstantiated claims that it refuses to allow to be investigated. Enough suckers believe them, and the news cycle moves on. By the time it's revealed Israel was lying, everyone has forgotten. This is complete rogue state stuff, but because they're our mates, we're allowing it to happen. How the f**k are we in the West expected to isolate Russia or China and highlight their human rights abuses when we are complicit in something just as bad, if not worse?
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What issue do you have Sproty?
Why did UNWRA instantly sack 12 staff, if it is all a fabrication?
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What issue do you have Sproty?
Why did UNWRA instantly sack 12 staff, if it is all a fabrication?
If your in disagreement with BRR you know you’re on the right side of history
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What issue do you have Sproty?
Why did UNWRA instantly sack 12 staff, if it is all a fabrication?
Lots of reasons are possible, and likely. So tell me how many of those 12 have evidence against them. And then tell me why support was withdrawn by the US and UK and others for humanitarian aid when about 4 out of 12000 workers have even a sniff of suspicion.
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What issue do you have Sproty?
Why did UNWRA instantly sack 12 staff, if it is all a fabrication?
Because they sacked them completely without due process, as they later admitted. The Israeli claims have never been investigated or substantiated to this day.
It's not hard to imagine why a charity that relies on international funding would do that, in the middle of a geopolitical shitstorm.
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What issue do you have Sproty?
Why did UNWRA instantly sack 12 staff, if it is all a fabrication?
Because they sacked them completely without due process, as they later admitted. The Israeli claims have never been investigated or substantiated to this day.
It's not hard to imagine why a charity that relies on international funding would do that, in the middle of a geopolitical shitstorm.
The Israelis have briefed the various heads of government and shared their information with them, it is highly unlikely they will share it with the press or members of a 4th tier football forum ! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/17/israel-claims-dozens-unrwa-staff-took-part-october-7-attack/
And they will continue to clear up Gaza and there will be a reckoning for the Thousands they have identified.
The only ceasefire I see them accepting is totally neutral UN troops setting up a Humanitarian Zone, the only folks going in are disarmed and then it’s a case of Israel sorting the Die hards out!
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Sproty, believing a government that has been proven to lie about its actions eg the hospital and reported Hamas HQ, esp when using pics of something unrelated to evidence it, is a tad foolish. I wait to see the specific charges around these people Israel causes.
Meanwhile, getting funding withdrawn from at the very worst an overwhelming humanitarian organisation is sick. More so with the decades old desire for the elimination of that organisation purely due to it supporting Palestinians. And there, with evidence, we are back to flat out blatent genocide, something you and Netanyahu appear to sit comfortably with.
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Sorry Chum I have no influence over Mr Netanyahu or any other Israeli for that matter, I am entitled to have an opinion on a 4th Tier Football forum and My opinion has been stated, this is how things will pan out.
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Entitled to have an opinion, and voice it, and be called out on talking shite.
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Why would Israel stop now, they know if the boot was on the other foot there would be dancing in the streets all over the world as it was when Hamas first attacked, and they have their foot on their neck, and a reluctance of any backing from their mates over the hill, Egypt looking as though they are having nothing to do with any refugees, great mates they have got.
More than the refugees are they more worried about the discovery of tunnels under the border and any complicity with
Hamas in the Raffa area.
Israel know they have to flatten them, and then go after the leaders wherever they are.
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"Wherever they are". Obviously hidden in the bodies of 6 year olds. Hack em out with knives, or shrapnel eh Selby. No doubt you'd hack into the first child there?
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"Wherever they are". Obviously hidden in the bodies of 6 year olds. Hack em out with knives, or shrapnel eh Selby. No doubt you'd hack into the first child there?
No I think you will find they are in Qatar
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Why would Israel stop now, they know if the boot was on the other foot there would be dancing in the streets all over the world as it was when Hamas first attacked, and they have their foot on their neck, and a reluctance of any backing from their mates over the hill, Egypt looking as though they are having nothing to do with any refugees, great mates they have got.
More than the refugees are they more worried about the discovery of tunnels under the border and any complicity with
Hamas in the Raffa area.
Israel know they have to flatten them, and then go after the leaders wherever they are.
sorry about the cricket selby
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Yes Syd, more important, we were poor.
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More on the long game ........
''THE NEW YORK Times, Washington Post, and Los Angeles Times’s coverage of Israel’s war on Gaza showed a consistent bias against Palestinians, according to an Intercept analysis of major media coverage.
The print media outlets, which play an influential role in shaping U.S. views of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, paid little attention to the unprecedented impact of Israel’s siege and bombing campaign on both children and journalists in the Gaza Strip'' ..........................
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/
similar in Oz media
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
Show me where I said that
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
Show me where I said that
You referred to the pain. That is the pain.
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
Show me where I said that
You referred to the pain. That is the pain.
If you want to make that connection in your head that’s on you
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
Show me where I said that
You referred to the pain. That is the pain.
If you want to make that connection in your head that’s on you
Go on, tell what the connection in your head was?
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Memo to Hamas, if you act stupid, expect pain…….
Are you saying the tens of thousands of murdered children lying beneath rubble for several months had political memberships, real bullets in real guns, had been digging tunnels with their beach spades, had been fully trained in the manufacture of deadly rocketry etc?
Show me where I said that
You referred to the pain. That is the pain.
If you want to make that connection in your head that’s on you
Go on, tell what the connection in your head was?
The only connection was to paraphrase red dwarf
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Does any anti-Israel voice on here think that Hamas should just release the hostages?
I don’t think I’ve seen any of you mention it. In practical terms, that’s your ceasefire right there. Like Selby said, no amount of protest over here is going to deter Israel.
Taking civilian hostages as part of war goes against international law.
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I'd stop listening to selby nc.
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Does any anti-Israel voice on here think that Hamas should just release the hostages?
I don’t think I’ve seen any of you mention it. In practical terms, that’s your ceasefire right there. Like Selby said, no amount of protest over here is going to deter Israel.
Taking civilian hostages as part of war goes against international law.
Pro Palestine has been the celebrity cause of the left for so long they can’t see anything in balance towards it any more
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I'd stop listening to selby nc.
And my reason for saying this is that this answer below and others is what you get ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Me
''Selby my credentials on Israel are there for anyone to see in my back catalogue, unless of course you have have forgotten our previous discussion.
There are two issues here, the defeat of the tories and justice for Palestine, I want both, what do you want?
Selby
''Certainly not bothered at all whether Labour or Tories govern this country, none in my lifetime have made any difference to my life, and I am certainly not bothered about a spat that has been going on for thousands of years off and on, and has got every major politician stumped in the world at the moment Syd.
In fact the Rovers result next Saturday holds more interest to me really''
Or it could be something about fishing or having a ride on mower or making lots of money????
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Thought I was quite eloquent there Syd and hope you have finally tumbled that I don't give a flying fig what you think about me.
How's the neighbours, got that move away yet? All that room over there and you land next door. poor things.
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Do tell me if I misquoted you selby, I'm only holding up the mirror for you is all. The bit I don't get is if you don't care who wins why do you spend so much time bladdering about politics?
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Does any anti-Israel voice on here think that Hamas should just release the hostages?
I don’t think I’ve seen any of you mention it. In practical terms, that’s your ceasefire right there. Like Selby said, no amount of protest over here is going to deter Israel.
Taking civilian hostages as part of war goes against international law.
Israel's genocide ain't too legal in the international realms is it? Been going on for a very long time.
If Israel stopped immediately, allowed food, meds, aid to get to Gaza. Allowed Gaza the sea territory as any other country has, and followed through with action towards a two state solution. Then things could move on. More trading of hostages - Israel has a whole bunch too.
But, to release all the Israeli hostages invites Israel to drop a nuke on Gaza. It's bleedin obvious innit. Or just up the bombing as facilitated by the US and UK. Palestine needs to see positive action from Israel, a solid change from the past. Giving up all the hostages is a numpty idea.
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Of course Hamas should release the hostages. The last time that happened was when there was a ceasefire. The two positions go hand-in-hand.
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Politics is a little more than sucking between the legs of everything Labour Syd, when you grow up you will realise that just swallowing everything one party preaches and being so tiresome and rude, then you might just get some respect of your opinions, instead of posters taking the p**s out of you, which to be honest I don't think you are intelligent enough to know.
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Politics is a little more than sucking between the legs of everything Labour Syd, when you grow up you will realise that just swallowing everything one party preaches and being so tiresome and rude, then you might just get some respect of your opinions, instead of posters taking the p**s out of you, which to be honest I don't think you are intelligent enough to know.
Come on selby, he gives us something to talk about doesn’t he.
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No wet lettuce posting owt about last night’s Panorama Programme, reporter been showing Graphic evidence of Sexual violence and attempted beheadings commit by Syd and co’s mates at the Music festival on 6 Ictiber! Also showed Hamas throw a grenade into a shelter full of festival goers
One runs for it and they shoot the kid down,then you got some fat Hamas idiot stating they never targeted or killed any civilians! Why attack a Music festival? Then there is the slight matter of $billions of Dollars of Aid money commandeered to build 300 miles of Tunnels and $422 million invested in Turkey and water pipes etc used to construct 12,000 missiles!the war could stop tomorrow Hamas needs to surrender and release the hostages and stop using Women and children to hide behind!
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Unlikely they knew about the music festi.
One question is how many of the initial deaths were IDF caused? Another is why are there so many targeted IDF murdering of children? Is the IDF jealous OF what some of the fringe Hamas/PJ achieved? Indeed are Jewish fundamentalists jealous of that? Is it anti semetic to ask this? If so, how?
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Politics is a little more than sucking between the legs of everything Labour Syd, when you grow up you will realise that just swallowing everything one party preaches and being so tiresome and rude, then you might just get some respect of your opinions, instead of posters taking the p**s out of you, which to be honest I don't think you are intelligent enough to know.
You should pass your info on to the little parrot selby, so your statement very recently that you don't give a shit who wins (I think you do) where does that fit with the above?
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I'd just like to say before it happens that I will accept 100% any ruling that the ICJ makes on Israel regarding illegal settlements and expansionism and the later judgement regarding genocide.
I know that many of you will want to join me here and state your own position also.
For reference:
Declarations recognizing the jurisdiction of the Court as compulsory
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
22 February 2017
1. The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland accepts as compulsory ipso facto and without special convention, on condition of reciprocity, the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice, ln conformity with paragraph 2 of Article 36 of the Statute of the Court, until such time as notice may be given to terminate the acceptance, over all disputes arising after 1 January 1987, with regard to situations or facts subsequent to the same date, other than:
(i) any dispute which the United Kingdom has agreed with the other Party or Parties thereto to settle by some other method of peaceful settlement;
(ii) any dispute with the government of any other country which is or has been a Member of the Commonwealth;
(iii) any dispute in respect of which any other Party to the dispute has accepted the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice only in relation to or for the purpose of the dispute; or where the acceptance of the Court's compulsory jurisdiction on behalf of any other Party to the dispute was deposited or ratified less than twelve months prior to the filing of the application bringing the dispute before the Court;
iv) any claim or dispute which is substantially the same as a claim or dispute previously submitted to the Court by the same or another Party;
v) any claim or dispute in respect of which the claim or dispute in question has not been notified to the United Kingdom by the State or States concerned in writing, including of an Intention to submit the claim or dispute to the Court failing an amicable settlement, at least six months in advance of the submission of the claim or dispute to the Court;
vi) any claim or dispute that arises from or is connected with or related to nuclear disarmament and/or nuclear weapons, unless all of the other nuclear-weapon States Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons have also consented to the jurisdiction of the Court and are party to the proceedings in question.
2. The Government of the United Kingdom also reserves the right at any time, by means of a notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, and with effect as from the moment of such notification, either to add to, amend or withdraw any of the foregoing reservations, or any that may hereafter be added.
22 February 2017
https://www.icj-cij.org/declarations/gb
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A little further reading ...............
''As stated in Article 93 of the UN Charter, all 193 UN members are automatically parties to the court's statute.[31][32] Non-UN members may also become parties to the court's statute under the Article 93(2) procedure, which was used by Switzerland in 1948 and Nauru in 1988, prior to either joining the UN.[33] Once a state is a party to the court's statute, it is entitled to participate in cases before the court. However, being a party to the statute does not automatically give the court jurisdiction over disputes involving those parties. The issue of jurisdiction is considered in the three types of ICJ cases: contentious issues, incidental jurisdiction, and advisory opinions.[34]''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice#:~:text=As%20stated%20in%20Article%2093,parties%20to%20the%20court's%20statute.
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No wet lettuce posting owt about last night’s Panorama Programme, reporter been showing Graphic evidence of Sexual violence and attempted beheadings commit by Syd and co’s mates at the Music festival on 6 Ictiber! Also showed Hamas throw a grenade into a shelter full of festival goers
One runs for it and they shoot the kid down,then you got some fat Hamas idiot stating they never targeted or killed any civilians! Why attack a Music festival? Then there is the slight matter of $billions of Dollars of Aid money commandeered to build 300 miles of Tunnels and $422 million invested in Turkey and water pipes etc used to construct 12,000 missiles!the war could stop tomorrow Hamas needs to surrender and release the hostages and stop using Women and children to hide behind!
Bump!
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As an
histerical historian I'm sure if I looked back I would find that you have given equal time and effort to both side of this tragic episode that some appear to have little stomach for whole truth.
Could you check to see if panorama have any file footage of nakba?
We don't get panorama on free-to-air spotty
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I bet you were up all night thinking about all that, I hope the wife was out enjoying herself.
Start watching Gb News and Talk TV and relax.
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As an histerical historian I'm sure if I looked back I would find that you have given equal time and effort to both side of this tragic episode that some appear to have little stomach for whole truth.
Could you check to see if panorama have any file footage of nakba?
We don't get panorama on free-to-air spotty
I think you will find in my back cataly that I have always had a great deal of SYp for the Palestinian people, but what Hamas did on 7/10/23 in unconscionable! By the way this has benn dragging on for over 4 months and I note you have failed miserably to post any examples of Israeli Soldiers behaving in the same manner as Hamas!
I salute them Israeli soldiers who have conducted themselves in a exemplary fashion something which can’t be said about your pals Sydders, please feel free to post any evidence of sexual assaults and attempted beheadings or murdering Palestinian Women and children in the same manner as your lovely terrorist mates?
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Since 1948 sprot
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Since 1948 sprot
Try harder Syderney try harder!
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No wet lettuce posting owt about last night’s Panorama Programme, reporter been showing Graphic evidence of Sexual violence and attempted beheadings commit by Syd and co’s mates at the Music festival on 6 Ictiber! Also showed Hamas throw a grenade into a shelter full of festival goers
One runs for it and they shoot the kid down,then you got some fat Hamas idiot stating they never targeted or killed any civilians! Why attack a Music festival? Then there is the slight matter of $billions of Dollars of Aid money commandeered to build 300 miles of Tunnels and $422 million invested in Turkey and water pipes etc used to construct 12,000 missiles!the war could stop tomorrow Hamas needs to surrender and release the hostages and stop using Women and children to hide behind!
Bump Syderney Bump!
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Political conventions?
https://x.com/nicholaswatt/status/1760315363542122769?s=46&t=ineOQWVeqaGIc2ZoyBwTGA
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The whole thing is a farce and shows why so many find politics pathetic. Petty arguing about the odd word in a fairly meaningless motion to 'make a point'.
Crazy that the SNP with their limited opposition time went for this. Crazy that labour appear to have blackmailed the speaker somewhat.
Crazy that the semantics of the odd word seems to matter.
Just to add, this about sums it up for me;
Former minister Kit Malthouse has given his view on the Israel-Hamas war in a speech in the Commons.
He said he visited Israel and the Palestinian territories last week and visited the sites of "mass murder" in the Kibbitzim in southern Israel and "heard with horror the accounts of the victims and bereaved relatives".
He also said he saw artillery landing on Gaza, and heard gunfire and drones flying over when he "contemplated the futility of 30,000 dead, and with horror, thought of the assault upon Rafah and its 600,000 children".
Mr Malthouse said it is "widely accepted across the world" that there can be "no military victory over Hamas" because the war is "a recruiting sergeant for that appalling organisation".
"Anybody who is interested in the security of Israel in the future has to recognise that this conflict is making things worse, not better, and that the security of the Palestinians is required for the security of Israel into the future," he said.
On his return to the UK, he said, he found parliamentarians "trapped in a crazy battle of semantics".
"I do not, I have to say, understand the difference between a ceasefire, a pause, a cessation, a truce, qualified by sustainable, credible, whatever it is, humanitarian, one that lasts," he adds.
"The British people think our moral compass is spinning in this house, that we have no clue what we're doing any more.
"And yet they see the bodies of shredded children coming across the media pretty much every day."
He said the public wants the "killing to stop", for the hostages to be returned, and for aid to flow into Gaza.
Hitting out at political game-playing, he said their job as MPs is to vote for the outcomes they want, not "some clever process by which we might get there".
Mr Malthouse concluded: "It is time for the bloodshed to stop and for the talking to begin. And in this House and in this country, we must do what we can to make that so."
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The tories and Starmer's Labour are like, "Israel, until you agree to all these conditions, you can keep abusing, and we'll keep giving you the means to do so".
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Pretty embarrassing for British politics as a whole that it has come to this. And on such a serious issue. Our political class really are a bunch of absolute wasters. Obvious partisanship from the speaker is the cherry on top.
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I think someone mentioned this a few times before,
#allthesame
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https://www.youtube.com/live/oBk9P6FLhAI?si=KnxkZqnWc9w7_GeS
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https://www.youtube.com/live/oBk9P6FLhAI?si=KnxkZqnWc9w7_GeS
Dire youtube channel. What a weirdo.
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Religious sectarianism now dictating British politics.
Today was nothing to do with the NHS, the cost of living crisis or open border immigration.
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Hardly nr, it's a protest
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The comments below the vid.
@kenjewell5619
2 hours ago (edited)
The police are out of their depth. This needs military intervention with necessary force.
964
Reply
44 replies
@sheilamorrell6329
@sheilamorrell6329
1 hour ago
The country needs an Enoch. Intelligent, articulate ,and strength of his convictions.
Brits take back your country, vote Reform.
148
Reply
3 replies
@EB-tg1oq
@EB-tg1oq
2 hours ago
Labour party wanting to have an amendment so they can opt out and Hoyle agreed. Absolutely embarrassing and typical of the Labour Party.
405
Reply
7 replies
@sidewaysid
@sidewaysid
1 hour ago
This needs to be stopped .this is our Country not a Muslim one
155
Reply
3 replies
@allisonfarrugia9058
@allisonfarrugia9058
2 hours ago
This is what we get when we are governed by non British people. Once there was Britain.
441
Reply
11 replies
@Focal_Paradox
@Focal_Paradox
2 hours ago
Isn't it amazing how such a "small minority" can effect UK politics and bring our political system to its knees.
The Nazis would be so proud.
795
Reply
37 replies
@JoJo-Mat-ai
@JoJo-Mat-ai
1 hour ago
I’m a Christian Brit londoner. I find it totally offensive what they’re doing to Big Ben. Get out of parliament square. You’re destroying my memories of my hometown. These activists are such attention seekers and drama queens!
96
Reply
2 replies
@emf49
@emf49
2 hours ago
The UK was warned and they chose to ignore those who had the brains to ‘call’ that this scenario would happen. Tragic beyond words.
528
Reply
3 replies
@yehudithyakobson9325
@yehudithyakobson9325
1 hour ago
People are afraid of being called islamophobic and not from terrorists...
38
Reply
1 reply
@hirepgym6913
@hirepgym6913
2 hours ago
At least Boris bought water cannons and this bunch of clowns got rid of them
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A lot of very laudable comments above about the different meanings of a ceasefire .............
''Calling for Gaza ceasefire now 'not in anyone’s interest’ - Sunak''
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-68358529
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''The US has urged the international court of justice (ICJ) in The Hague not to issue a ruling calling for Israel’s immediate withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories, arguing that Israeli security had to be taken into account in any solution to the conflict.
“Any movement towards Israel’s withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza requires consideration for Israel’s very real security needs,” Richard Visek, the state department’s acting legal adviser, told the ICJ judges.
Visek was stating the US position in ICJ hearings this week first requested by the UN general assembly in 2022. They are intended to establish the legal status of the occupied territories, and the implications for the international community’s approach to the conflict.
More than 50 states are due to present their stances in the week-long hearings, which have further emphasised the isolation of Israel’s few supporters, following a UN security council hearing on Tuesday in which the US was the lone vote against a draft ceasefire resolution, with the UK abstaining. The US and UK are expected to be virtually alone again at the ICJ hearings in urging restraint in its ruling on Israel’s occupation.
The ICJ is expected to issue its opinion by the summer, and it could have a far-reaching political and legal impact if it rules the occupation to be illegal. It could for example have implications for governments attempting to ban boycott campaigns aimed at products made in the occupied territories. It could also further increase the geopolitical costs to the US and UK in continuing to defend Israel on the world stage.
In laying out the US argument on Wednesday, Visek argued that both the UN security council and general assembly had established the path to a peaceful resolution through negotiations, which would fundamentally be about an exchange of land for peace.
Visek was stating the US position in ICJ hearings this week first requested by the UN general assembly in 2022. They are intended to establish the legal status of the occupied territories, and the implications for the international community’s approach to the conflict.
More than 50 states are due to present their stances in the week-long hearings, which have further emphasised the isolation of Israel’s few supporters, following a UN security council hearing on Tuesday in which the US was the lone vote against a draft ceasefire resolution, with the UK abstaining. The US and UK are expected to be virtually alone again at the ICJ hearings in urging restraint in its ruling on Israel’s occupation.
The ICJ is expected to issue its opinion by the summer, and it could have a far-reaching political and legal impact if it rules the occupation to be illegal. It could for example have implications for governments attempting to ban boycott campaigns aimed at products made in the occupied territories. It could also further increase the geopolitical costs to the US and UK in continuing to defend Israel on the world stage.
In laying out the US argument on Wednesday, Visek argued that both the UN security council and general assembly had established the path to a peaceful resolution through negotiations, which would fundamentally be about an exchange of land for peace.
“Many other states have been saying, both today and over the last few days: what negotiations? There is no negotiation process going on. The Israeli government is not interested in a negotiation process that will lead to a solution and so there’s no reason for the court to pull its punches.”
Haque argued that there was a role for the ICJ to play in laying down the legal parameters for any negotiated settlement.
“Typically, in a negotiation, I have a legal right to something that you want, you have a legal right to something that I want, and we negotiate an exchange,” he said. “So the court can play a constructive role by telling the parties what their legal rights are, and then leaving it to them to negotiate from that legal baseline.”
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/feb/21/us-israel-icj-ruling-palestine
Can someone please explain the difference between what russia is and has been doing to what israel is and has been doing? is appears to be semantics, to those on the receiving end that is.
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''The US has urged the international court of justice (ICJ) in The Hague not to issue a ruling calling for Israel’s immediate withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories, arguing that Israeli security had to be taken into account in any solution to the conflict.
“Any movement towards Israel’s withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza requires consideration for Israel’s very real security needs,” Richard Visek, the state department’s acting legal adviser, told the ICJ judges.
Visek was stating the US position in ICJ hearings this week first requested by the UN general assembly in 2022. They are intended to establish the legal status of the occupied territories, and the implications for the international community’s approach to the conflict.
More than 50 states are due to present their stances in the week-long hearings, which have further emphasised the isolation of Israel’s few supporters, following a UN security council hearing on Tuesday in which the US was the lone vote against a draft ceasefire resolution, with the UK abstaining. The US and UK are expected to be virtually alone again at the ICJ hearings in urging restraint in its ruling on Israel’s occupation.
The ICJ is expected to issue its opinion by the summer, and it could have a far-reaching political and legal impact if it rules the occupation to be illegal. It could for example have implications for governments attempting to ban boycott campaigns aimed at products made in the occupied territories. It could also further increase the geopolitical costs to the US and UK in continuing to defend Israel on the world stage.
In laying out the US argument on Wednesday, Visek argued that both the UN security council and general assembly had established the path to a peaceful resolution through negotiations, which would fundamentally be about an exchange of land for peace.
Visek was stating the US position in ICJ hearings this week first requested by the UN general assembly in 2022. They are intended to establish the legal status of the occupied territories, and the implications for the international community’s approach to the conflict.
More than 50 states are due to present their stances in the week-long hearings, which have further emphasised the isolation of Israel’s few supporters, following a UN security council hearing on Tuesday in which the US was the lone vote against a draft ceasefire resolution, with the UK abstaining. The US and UK are expected to be virtually alone again at the ICJ hearings in urging restraint in its ruling on Israel’s occupation.
The ICJ is expected to issue its opinion by the summer, and it could have a far-reaching political and legal impact if it rules the occupation to be illegal. It could for example have implications for governments attempting to ban boycott campaigns aimed at products made in the occupied territories. It could also further increase the geopolitical costs to the US and UK in continuing to defend Israel on the world stage.
In laying out the US argument on Wednesday, Visek argued that both the UN security council and general assembly had established the path to a peaceful resolution through negotiations, which would fundamentally be about an exchange of land for peace.
“Many other states have been saying, both today and over the last few days: what negotiations? There is no negotiation process going on. The Israeli government is not interested in a negotiation process that will lead to a solution and so there’s no reason for the court to pull its punches.”
Haque argued that there was a role for the ICJ to play in laying down the legal parameters for any negotiated settlement.
“Typically, in a negotiation, I have a legal right to something that you want, you have a legal right to something that I want, and we negotiate an exchange,” he said. “So the court can play a constructive role by telling the parties what their legal rights are, and then leaving it to them to negotiate from that legal baseline.”
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/feb/21/us-israel-icj-ruling-palestine
Can someone please explain the difference between what russia is and has been doing to what israel is and has been doing? is appears to be semantics, to those on the receiving end that is.
You been ‘hitting the cheese’ again Syd?
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I guess that because they were not killed/murdered altogether it hasn't attracted so much interest sproty? These are just the kids.
''Between September 2000 and October 6, 2023, DCIP independently verified that Israeli forces and settlers killed 2,187 Palestinian children throughout the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip''
https://www.dci-palestine.org/4237_palestinian_children_killed_as_gaza_becomes_graveyard_for_children#:~:text=Between%20September%202000%20and%20October,Jerusalem%2C%20and%20the%20Gaza%20Strip.
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Whilst having every sympathy for innocent gazans I believe Israel should carry on until Hamas is wiped from the Earth.
2 things should be remembered.
1) the populace of Gaza voted for Hamas to take power (yes convoluted but have to own it nevertheless, similar to how remainers point the finger about brexit consequences)
2) October 7th, just what reaction did Hamas expect? Any logical thought will tell you this would happen and maybe that’s what they wanted, to mobilise the left wet lettuce brigade who see Palestine as their celebrity cause, given the state of the HoC last night with MPs saying they live in fear and Jewish members of society in fear and antisemitism incidents rising maybe a worldwide Islamic uprising was the aim?
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
Feels maybe a bigger picture pushing at fault lines in society BYFP
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I guess that because they were not killed/murdered altogether it hasn't attracted so much interest sproty? These are just the kids.
''Between September 2000 and October 6, 2023, DCIP independently verified that Israeli forces and settlers killed 2,187 Palestinian children throughout the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip''
https://www.dci-palestine.org/4237_palestinian_children_killed_as_gaza_becomes_graveyard_for_children#:~:text=Between%20September%202000%20and%20October,Jerusalem%2C%20and%20the%20Gaza%20Strip.
15/16 year old youths you mean! Still I have always condoned the IDF /Police solution to youths throwing stones or using sling shots. But no Israeli Service personnel have run into a Palestinian settlement and killed women and infant children or men/youths for that matter with wanton cruelty, nor have they gang raped to death Women and Girls. If you can’t see the difference you need to see a psychiatrist!
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
prorogation was deemed to be unlawful
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
5 hours they debated, before the Govt pulled their amendment, why do you think that was?
To stave off a 150+ rebellion? A rebellion of that size would bring the Govt down and they didn’t want that did they, instead they try to frame the opposition, nothing said about the Tory whip threatening the Speaker telling him he would unleash hell if he allowed Labours amendment.
The top and bottom line here is the Govt and SNP were outmanouvered , all the Govt had to do was use their majority to get their amendment passed, they didn’t because they knew many f their MP’s were going to vote for the Labour amendment
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
prorogation was deemed to be unlawful
Did i say it wasn't
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The speaker himself has said he did it for the safety of MPs. So there you go, moral of the story going forward is if you don't like something that MPs are voting on then threaten your MPs with violence and the rules will get bent in parliament. EDL? Go have a riot to get your own way etc
A Jewish s*x gang? Go mob your MPs.
A Christian suicide bomber? Go mob your MPs
I jest of course about those last 2 :lol: there's only 1 "peaceful" religion that does those
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
5 hours they debated, before the Govt pulled their amendment, why do you think that was?
To stave off a 150+ rebellion? A rebellion of that size would bring the Govt down and they didn’t want that did they, instead they try to frame the opposition, nothing said about the Tory whip threatening the Speaker telling him he would unleash hell if he allowed Labours amendment.
The top and bottom line here is the Govt and SNP were outmanouvered , all the Govt had to do was use their majority to get their amendment passed, they didn’t because they knew many f their MP’s were going to vote for the Labour amendment
What this got to do with the price of fish?
The issue here is the Speaker deciding to give the SNP's opposition day motion to Labour in a totally unconstitutional manner, thus saving face for Starmer who was in more trouble then they will now let on. Whoever from Labour that "lent" on the speaker ensured Starmer's bacon was saved for another day.
Speaker now in deep shit unless Sunak decides to save him from the vote of no confidence.
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That second point springs to my mind also. I see them saying they allowed a change in parliament due to concerns of MPs safety. That lets those threatening win. MPs should be allowed to freely state their views.
They had the chance, but the Govt pulled their amendment because they feared they didn’t have the numbers. The SNP saw a chance to split the Labour party, because they know they are in trouble in Scotland, the Govt then bleat about going against conventions, thats a bit rich coming from them, conventions weren’t an issue when proroguing Parliament was it?
Big difference being Prorogation is a convention that has been used on quite a few occasions, This issue was constitutionally wrong and against the advice of the clerk of the house, so in effect The speaker went against convention, Johnson just used a tactic that had been used often before by a sitting government.
5 hours they debated, before the Govt pulled their amendment, why do you think that was?
To stave off a 150+ rebellion? A rebellion of that size would bring the Govt down and they didn’t want that did they, instead they try to frame the opposition, nothing said about the Tory whip threatening the Speaker telling him he would unleash hell if he allowed Labours amendment.
The top and bottom line here is the Govt and SNP were outmanouvered , all the Govt had to do was use their majority to get their amendment passed, they didn’t because they knew many f their MP’s were going to vote for the Labour amendment
There was also talk of Labour MPs rebelling too, which is why the LP whips put the pressure on The Speaker.
All in all, a monumental balls up.
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Pretty embarrassing for British politics as a whole that it has come to this. And on such a serious issue. Our political class really are a bunch of absolute wasters. Obvious partisanship from the speaker is the cherry on top.
Hoyle said he had “serious meeting with the police”
“I never ever want to pick up the phone to find out that a friend (from either side) has been murdered by terrorists”.
Jo Cox and David Amass happened and particularly Labour MPs are getting threats. Calling them all “wasters” doesn’t sit right.
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I guess that because they were not killed/murdered altogether it hasn't attracted so much interest sproty? These are just the kids.
''Between September 2000 and October 6, 2023, DCIP independently verified that Israeli forces and settlers killed 2,187 Palestinian children throughout the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip''
https://www.dci-palestine.org/4237_palestinian_children_killed_as_gaza_becomes_graveyard_for_children#:~:text=Between%20September%202000%20and%20October,Jerusalem%2C%20and%20the%20Gaza%20Strip.
15/16 year old youths you mean! Still I have always condoned the IDF /Police solution to youths throwing stones or using sling shots. But no Israeli Service personnel have run into a Palestinian settlement and killed women and infant children or men/youths for that matter with wanton cruelty, nor have they gang raped to death Women and Girls. If you can’t see the difference you need to see a psychiatrist!
This has been going on since 1948 sproty with the backing of the western world, in their own land. I know of someone happy to break the law just because some wants to get their leg over in their own car.
So we have people in their own land being murdered and their properties demolished, settlers moving in against international law, then IDF protecting the settlers by shooting any that protest. Kill them they threw stones doesn't sound equal. Kids don't get to vote either.
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Pretty embarrassing for British politics as a whole that it has come to this. And on such a serious issue. Our political class really are a bunch of absolute wasters. Obvious partisanship from the speaker is the cherry on top.
Hoyle said he had “serious meeting with the police”
“I never ever want to pick up the phone to find out that a friend (from either side) has been murdered by terrorists”.
Jo Cox and David Amass happened and particularly Labour MPs are getting threats. Calling them all “wasters” doesn’t sit right.
Jo Cox was vocally pro-Palestinian, and was murdered by a far right terrorist who's rhetoric has subsequently been adopted by the conservative party and much of the British media. Were she still alive, she'd no doubt be getting called a whining leftie who didn't understand grown up politics. Invoking her memory in this way is cheap, and Coyle raising that spectre to cover his own arse is ghoulish. Hoyle did a favour for his old mates in the Labour Party - that's all there is to it.
There's no evidence of actual serious threats being dished out. I'm sure there's the odd head case making threats but you're always going to get that in a movement of so many people. In fact, the only actually violent protest this whole time was when Braverman whipped up a gang of far right thugs to have a scrap with police at the Cenotaph.
People are protesting - peacefully - outside their constituency offices. In some cases they're confronting MPs directly. In some cases even angrily. That's fine. In many cases, that anger comes from people who are seeing their friends and family wiped out.
As far as I'm concerned the majority of these MPs should never be allowed to speak in front of a quiet audience ever again. This should follow them for the rest of their lives, and even if it does, they won't feel a fraction of a percent of the suffering that they've supported in Gaza.
If the consequences of their politics makes them so uncomfortable, that's a good reason for them to reevaluate their politics, I'd argue.
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Pretty embarrassing for British politics as a whole that it has come to this. And on such a serious issue. Our political class really are a bunch of absolute wasters. Obvious partisanship from the speaker is the cherry on top.
Hoyle said he had “serious meeting with the police”
“I never ever want to pick up the phone to find out that a friend (from either side) has been murdered by terrorists”.
Jo Cox and David Amass happened and particularly Labour MPs are getting threats. Calling them all “wasters” doesn’t sit right.
Jo Cox was vocally pro-Palestinian, and was murdered by a far right terrorist who's rhetoric has subsequently been adopted by the conservative party and much of the British media. Were she still alive, she'd no doubt be getting called a whining leftie who didn't understand grown up politics. Invoking her memory in this way is cheap, and Coyle raising that spectre to cover his own arse is ghoulish. Hoyle did a favour for his old mates in the Labour Party - that's all there is to it.
There's no evidence of actual serious threats being dished out. I'm sure there's the odd head case making threats but you're always going to get that in a movement of so many people. In fact, the only actually violent protest this whole time was when Braverman whipped up a gang of far right thugs to have a scrap with police at the Cenotaph.
People are protesting - peacefully - outside their constituency offices. In some cases they're confronting MPs directly. In some cases even angrily. That's fine. In many cases, that anger comes from people who are seeing their friends and family wiped out.
As far as I'm concerned the majority of these MPs should never be allowed to speak in front of a quiet audience ever again. This should follow them for the rest of their lives, and even if it does, they won't feel a fraction of a percent of the suffering that they've supported in Gaza.
If the consequences of their politics makes them so uncomfortable, that's a good reason for them to reevaluate their politics, I'd argue.
I’m aware of the nature of Jo Cox’s death thanks. I’m talking about threats and violence against MPs, so it is relevant actually.
Would that last paragraph you wrote have applied to her? Can you not see your hypocrisy?
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No, because it's obvious that "making someone uncomfortable by confronting them with the reality of their politics" and "murder" aren't the same thing.
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No, because it's obvious that "making someone uncomfortable by confronting them with the reality of their politics" and "murder" aren't the same thing.
Jo Cox’s politics made a far-right nutcases uncomfortable, she received lots of threats and then one killed her.
Current MP’s views are making certain people uncomfortable, and threats were being made against them while a genocidal slogan was literally projected on to Big Ben as a crowd gathered outside.
I’m not comparing the potential motives by the way.
I’ve spelled it out clear for you there.
I listened to Hoyle’s speech today and that is a man being 100% genuine.
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Think I see the problem here. "From the river to the sea" isn't a call for genocide. Interesting that you take issue with that phrase, and not the actual genocide that Israel is actually being investigated for.
You're trying to compare people being angry that thousands of people, mainly kids, are being butchered, with the actions of a mentally ill Nazi. It's just not remotely credible.
This isn't a thought experiment for a lot of these protestors. It's not something they just fancy debating on a fourth tier football forum in their spare time. It's their friends and family who are being wiped out. My sympathy and understanding is with them, not with the MPs who condone or support it.
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Meanwhile over in Gaza all the grandstanding is making no difference whatsoever.
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the validity of claims against UNWRA are unravelling further, hope nobody jumped in on the word of Israel on this one.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/us-intelligence-unrwa-hamas
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All summed up nicely by HIGNFY
To re-cap last night; The SNP ambushed Labour, who blackmailed the speaker, who broke the rules, which saved Keir’s blushes, which gave the Tories the excuse to pretend to be angry so they could withdraw and not lose the vote, and the SNP were angry their plot failed, so neither put party politics aside to vote for a ceasefire they claim to want, meaning parliament’s a mess but not as much of a mess as Gaza, which last night’s events did nothing to help
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All summed up nicely by HIGNFY
To re-cap last night; The SNP ambushed Labour, who blackmailed the speaker, who broke the rules, which saved Keir’s blushes, which gave the Tories the excuse to pretend to be angry so they could withdraw and not lose the vote, and the SNP were angry their plot failed, so neither put party politics aside to vote for a ceasefire they claim to want, meaning parliament’s a mess but not as much of a mess as Gaza, which last night’s events did nothing to help
Only there are no written rules
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Walsall council had to abandon a council meeting due to a support Palestine demonstration in the council chamber.
Meanwhile Israel have shown Reuters plans for full security powers of the West bank and Gaza after hostilities have ended, and no likely hood of an independent Palestinian state being declared and announced the deaths of two high ranking terrorists in a raid in Raffa.
There was no recognition if they even knew about the Labour motion in the Houses of Parliament, Ah well hot air again causing more problems for us than Israel.
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"The mob" now attacking takeaways for not boycotting coca cola. I seem to remember Leeds fans doing similar to anyone what looked like a Turkish. I guess it's morally acceptable this time if you've got a degree or you can't be described as a "nazi", "supremacist", "racist"
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/shocking-footage-shows-pro-palestine-protestors-taking-on-bradford-kebab-shop-af/
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4 men have been arrested, hopefully they'll be charged. I will not knowingly buy anything produced in illegal settlement areas.\ or from companies that trade there.
''Since the start of 2023, at least 483 Palestinians have been killed and more than 12,769 injured by Israeli forces and settlers in the occupied West Bank''
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/12/12/know-their-names-palestinians-killed-by-israel-in-the-occupied-west-bank-2
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UN: 'Convincing information' sexual violence committed against hostages in Gaza https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68474899
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I can’t believe people Syd supports and allies with would do that Sprot :)
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UN: 'Convincing information' sexual violence committed against hostages in Gaza https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68474899
I hear there's convincing information of tens of thousands of civilians including many many babies being murdered in Gaza by Israeli military. That's not to say other things that have happened aren't appalling, but lets look at proportions in both abuse and numbers.
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Meanwhile despite the hot air spouted, Israel just plod along with their plans while everyone else nash their teeth.
And still no cavalry coming over the border, and the Hamas negotiators fly first class of course back and forwards to their plush homes suffering well and making woe is me soundbites in between guzzling the best wines and food, no k rations for them.
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Rather than steer towards peace, the Zionists are building more settlements in the illegally occupied West Bank. Thats really going to help :headbang:
Looks like this shows that worse of Orwellian 1984 needs, for perpetual war, to maintain Zionist existence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68490034
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What is the massive difference between this war and the civil war in the Sudan where even more people have been displaced and more casualties than live in Gaza, and also the Ukrainian situation which is a sovereign country being invaded by another country for nothing else than gaining territory.
Yes their woh is me is better, their brothers have taken flight and invaded other countries in numbers and are starting to be a big problem all over the world except to their mates in Russia and China who will make noises supporting them but will not let them anywhere near them as far as taking any of them in, and to be fair not places they want to go to, the free bees not as good, and no threat of a camp in Siberia or a re-education camp in the desert in China, even Egypt are building a bigger wall to keep them where they are, and Syria and other countries bordering are just playing token support, while it seems again like Egypt not wanting Palestinians in their country.
Meanwhile we have thousands with nothing else to do stomping around every weekend on a day out in London when they could have gone to watch a match or god forbid work, and no doubt when the spat is over they will want us to take them in our hotels here with the other so called refugees.
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Nothing like labelling people steroetypically eh !
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Nothing like labelling people steroetypically eh !
Doesn’t mean he’s wrong though
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Did I say it was?
If you agree with the labelling that's your choice
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Did I say it was?
If you agree with the labelling that's your choice
I’m just wondering why the lack of outrage worldwide over a lot of other conflicts
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Did I say it was?
If you agree with the labelling that's your choice
I’m just wondering why the lack of outrage worldwide over a lot of other conflicts
Maybe the perpetrators didn’t use social media to record their depraved behaviour?
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Meanwhile in Gaza Israel do what they want to do, while in London the now weekly keep fit walk wear out some shoe leather.
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Meanwhile at Trinity College Cambridge
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68515368.amp
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One of the top ten Universities in the world, if the perpetrators turn out to be students they need a long spell in Prison to teach them to show respect and understand the privileged places they have lost!
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One of the top ten Universities in the world, if the perpetrators turn out to be students they need a long spell in Prison to teach them to show respect and understand the privileged places they have lost!
Let's see Netanyahu and half his war cabinet in Prison for mass murder. But you think someone chucking paint at a painting of a bloke deserves worse than they'll get. You should apply for a judgery qualification
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Will Bibi be keeping Vlad company in a shared cell?
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How the hell do they expect that to generate support from normal minded, decent people.
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Will Bibi be keeping Vlad company in a shared cell?
And Johnson, Sunak, Biden, Trump, Macron, Schulz etc, yes.
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How the hell do they expect that to generate support from normal minded, decent people.
Arguably it draws attention, highlights a huge important issue. Which it has done in your case.
The other reply is that nearly 40,000 less people died in that action. No one lost a loved one. No one was orphaned. No one committed suicide. No one lost a limb. No one was radicalised with hatred that will perpetuate more of the above.
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I wonder how much more would have been said critically if a Jewish student had done it after the original Hamas attacks?
I don’t condone Isreal’s actions at all but stunts like this don’t do it for me. It just emphasises the lawless nature of Hamas.
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I wonder how much more would have been said critically if a Jewish student had done it after the original Hamas attacks?
I don’t condone Isreal’s actions at all but stunts like this don’t do it for me. It just emphasises the lawless nature of Hamas.
Some observers have pointed out that the female perpetrator was sporting a back pack bag worth £1700 if genuine, just a typical member of the Woke, lefty Marxist inclined spoilt brat upper class!
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Well you can't complain about Israel's commitment to improving things in Gaza, they are already putting new cross country highways in place.
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Just seen a review of the upcoming Al Jazeera documentary on the Oct 7th Hamas attrocities. They find about 50 Israelis killed by IDF forces, mainly helicopters. No evidence at all of of babies being beheaded etc - one killed by a bullet through a door, one died following an emergency cesarean, none others killed. No evidence of systematic rape - eg at the music festival.
It also refers to the Great March of Return where hundreds of Palestinians peacefully protesting were mowed down by the IDF. A significant reason why Oct 7th happened,
None of the above and other parts of the documentary is excusing Hamas, but it is clarifying deliberate and horiffic Israeli misinformation, and giving context.
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Just seen a review of the upcoming Al Jazeera documentary on the Oct 7th Hamas attrocities. They find about 50 Israelis killed by IDF forces, mainly helicopters. No evidence at all of of babies being beheaded etc - one killed by a bullet through a door, one died following an emergency cesarean, none others killed. No evidence of systematic rape - eg at the music festival.
It also refers to the Great March of Return where hundreds of Palestinians peacefully protesting were mowed down by the IDF. A significant reason why Oct 7th happened,
None of the above and other parts of the documentary is excusing Hamas, but it is clarifying deliberate and horiffic Israeli misinformation, and giving context.
Sorry I saw dozens of social media broadcasts on that date and basically they have incriminated themselves beyond doubt!
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Please be specific, relating to what I said. Rapes, babies decapitated?
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Please be specific, relating to what I said. Rapes, babies decapitated?
Rapes will do nicely
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Please be specific, relating to what I said. Rapes, babies decapitated?
Rapes will do nicely
Go on then, I'm assuming you're not being vague here? What do you know, where is that info from? V serious doubts cast on many of those cases by the documentary. Extreme exaggerations from Israel, ones uncritically swallowed and regurgitated by Western msm. .
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One day one we have multiple selfies from your pals, some showing the naked dead body of Shani Louk in the back of a pick up having 7 bells knocked out of it, and another of an Israeli woman dragged out of the back of a pick up her hands bound behind her and a large patch of blood in the region of her crotch , she was manhandled into the rear passenger seats etc etc.
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Awful scenes, some terrible actions, lots of chaos.
The indiscriminate shooting of Israelis by the IDF helicopters didn't help, don't you think?
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Awful scenes, some terrible actions, lots of chaos.
The indiscriminate shooting of Israelis by the IDF helicopters didn't help, don't you think?
I don’t know what propaganda you have been fed, I saw dozens of Hamas fighters flying over the Music revellers using Para gliders shooting them with AK 47 ‘s
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There's enough independent verification out there that Hamas did use sexual violence and rape as a weapon in the Oct 7 attacks. I understand being sceptical of things a state claims in wartime but I don't think it's in question at this point, Hamas committed a horrific crime against humanity. That Israel has also committed crimes against humanity before and afterwards doesn't change that.
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
So you being an idiot as usual have made a stupid post that you can’t even support with any prima facie evidence… MORON!
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I think it should have entered everyone's head by now that Israel are not that bothered what anyone else thinks.
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''So you being an idiot as usual have made a stupid post that you can’t even support with any prima facie evidence… MORON!''
hmmm
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
Have you seen the breakdown of the Gaza health ministry’s death figures by the professor of statistics?
Every civilian death is tragic in war and of course they have happened. We can’t be any more accurate than that because the figures appear to be made up.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Zero variance in the reported numbers, perfectly linear day by day.
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''So you being an idiot as usual have made a stupid post that you can’t even support with any prima facie evidence… MORON!''
hmmm
Morning Syd, if the Cap fits?
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
Have you seen the breakdown of the Gaza health ministry’s death figures by the professor of statistics?
Every civilian death is tragic in war and of course they have happened. We can’t be any more accurate than that because the figures appear to be made up.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Zero variance in the reported numbers, perfectly linear day by day.
I'll look at your evidence later. I'm sure your doubt is based more on actual evidence, as in the documentary, than radom patterns as you suggest is the case.
On a similar point, do you look at animals forming in the clouds as you look up?
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
Have you seen the breakdown of the Gaza health ministry’s death figures by the professor of statistics?
Every civilian death is tragic in war and of course they have happened. We can’t be any more accurate than that because the figures appear to be made up.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Zero variance in the reported numbers, perfectly linear day by day.
I'll look at your evidence later. I'm sure your doubt is based more on actual evidence, as in the documentary, than radom patterns as you suggest is the case.
On a similar point, do you look at animals forming in the clouds as you look up?
You clutching at Straws makes me laugh!
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I'm not denying stuff happened, neither is that documentary, but there were gross exaggerations. The decapitated babies for example, and lack of acknowledgement of IDF helicopters slaughtering Israelis - I think about 50 were counted as definitely murdered that way. The rapes exaggerated, particularly one extreme case appears to have been faked.
I only saw a report of the documentary, and a few clips. Sorry if anyone is upset that Israel is being accused of lies, again.
Have you seen the breakdown of the Gaza health ministry’s death figures by the professor of statistics?
Every civilian death is tragic in war and of course they have happened. We can’t be any more accurate than that because the figures appear to be made up.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Zero variance in the reported numbers, perfectly linear day by day.
I'll look at your evidence later. I'm sure your doubt is based more on actual evidence, as in the documentary, than radom patterns as you suggest is the case.
On a similar point, do you look at animals forming in the clouds as you look up?
You clutching at Straws makes me laugh!
Explain.
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Normal civilian casualties to military in urban warfare is about nine to one.
In this conflict it is way higher, probably because Israeli forces are treating everyone as a hostile.
If you were in their position would you do the same, and if you didn't, how long do you think you would last before you was the victim?
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Normal civilian casualties to military in urban warfare is about nine to one.
In this conflict it is way higher, probably because Israeli forces are treating everyone as a hostile.
If you were in their position would you do the same, and if you didn't, how long do you think you would last before you was the victim?
https://x.com/spencerguard/status/1752181728016277765?s=46
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Normal civilian casualties to military in urban warfare is about nine to one.
In this conflict it is way higher, probably because Israeli forces are treating everyone as a hostile.
If you were in their position would you do the same, and if you didn't, how long do you think you would last before you was the victim?
https://x.com/spencerguard/status/1752181728016277765?s=46
Lazy. Speak, explain or introduce your link. Not everyone can see it.
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Yes, I think Israel should not carry out acts of genocide and should stop increasing its territory by creep in the West Bank and Gaza. And they should deal with settler violence and heinous crimes.
Any situation that treats human life as a cheap commodity to be thrown away makes me sad. And the images and reports that come from Gaza are tragic.
We have to recognise the full situation and how things got to the point where they are in order for things not to escalate further.
I’m glad we can agree that this is a war. Now, are all victors of every war in history guilty of genocide?
Firstly, without the Iron Dome we would see far far more deaths in this war. That’s a good thing.
Without taking into account the Gazans who were killed by Hamas rockets and by Hamas itself, the ratio is, at the most, 1.8 civilians for every Hamas terrorist killed. (From UK lawyers for Israel).
Figures from the UN for previous wars are as high as 9 civilians for every combatant.
Then throw in the human shield behaviour of Hamas as another factor.
Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. But then the anti-Israel crowd just beats Israel with a stick saying this is displacement.
And now that Israeli special forces assassinate a Hamas terrorist in a hospital without any civilian casualties you still have Owen Jones complaining? On these people just want Israel to be defenceless? Do you?
Israel is taking more measures to limit civilian casualties than any other war in history. Their measures are summarised here: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
I echo the thoughts of the writer. These civilian deaths are a very bad thing.
I also think Palestine should recognise its historical warmongering in the context of the changing borders of that region too. You can say the land was “stolen” all you like, but the UN gave it to Israel in 1948. They started a war in 1967 too. Hamas generals live a life of safety and comfort while putting Gazans in danger and saying they will do it again and again.
20% of Israel’s population are Arab Muslims with equal rights. I haven’t seen many “anti-Zionist” posters on here explain that about Israel in a way that is consistent with their view of Israel being an apartheid state.
One last question.
What would be a non-Zionist way of Israel defending itself?
I’ve covered it here. I don’t have time to summarise such a long and complex thread / article. The link on this post is by the same author and covers the same ground.
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The solution is not to create another generation of very angry Palestinians. Israel did steal the land. The solution now is to split the land in two, half each. One border. Two independant states. That won't happen. Meanwhile Israel murders thousands and acts like its hard done by. Given the holocaust, they are hypocritical, or simply sick, take your pick.
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Seems the Tories are worried that peace in the Middle East could help Labour....
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1768539377901154772
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It shows how clueless Labour have been with this conflict. You'd almost think Israel has power within Labour :ohmy:
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It shows how clueless Labour have been with this conflict. You'd almost think Israel has power within Labour :ohmy:
Isreal seem to have quite a lot of power across the globe.
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I’ve covered it here. I don’t have time to summarise such a long and complex thread / article. The link on this post is by the same author and covers the same ground.
Well it's a pack of lies if you bother looking at the actual evidence. But it's accurate if you are an apologist for a far-right Israeli government that has ignored 148 UN resolutions and allows it's citizens to destroy other people's houses, steal their land and murder anyone who protests. Is that what you cite as 'equal rights'?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arabs-israel-stay-sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/
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Laughable to suggest Israel is attempting to limit civilian casualties. It's asking people to trust the IDF propaganda machine over their own eyes.
There's a photo doing the rounds on social media. The source is a far right idf/Israeli telegram chat - so they're posting it themselves, for a laugh.
The photo is of a Palestinian prisoner, who had been zip tied and run over with an IDF tank, feet first. Would love to hear how that fits with this unprecedented attempt to prevent civilian casualties.
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Laughable to suggest Israel is attempting to limit civilian casualties. It's asking people to trust the IDF propaganda machine over their own eyes.
There's a photo doing the rounds on social media. The source is a far right idf/Israeli telegram chat - so they're posting it themselves, for a laugh.
The photo is of a Palestinian prisoner, who had been zip tied and run over with an IDF tank, feet first. Would love to hear how that fits with this unprecedented attempt to prevent civilian casualties.
Evidence.?
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
I call bullshit on any thing you post mate, second biggest tool on here
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
I call bullshit on any thing you post mate, second biggest tool on here
Foolish own goal right there :lol:
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
I call bullshit on any thing you post mate, second biggest tool on here
Foolish own goal right there :lol:
And here’s me trying to be nice to you
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Just waiting for you to cite Menanie Phillips as evidence for your stance.
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Just waiting for you to cite Menanie Phillips as evidence for your stance.
Who?
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
I call bullshit on any thing you post mate, second biggest tool on here
close behind Sydney BRR you are very close!
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Just waiting for you to cite Menanie Phillips as evidence for your stance.
Who?
Typo - Melanie.
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
Also on the 35000 murders?
I call bullshit on any thing you post mate, second biggest tool on here
close behind Sydney BRR you are very close!
You could have told LDR about Melanie Phillips, after all she's stood next to you holding your hymn sheet.
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
Read what MM put then what the Reuters report says……
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
So we have the first Hysteria offering from a Pro Palestinian source
Israeli tanks "deliberately" ran over Palestinians alive on Sunday, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor has said in a statement.
The Geneva-based organisation described these crimes on Monday as "part of Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip."
And then we have the Reuters account which is totally different, Israeli Forces clash with extremists and three who were armed with Fit are killed outside a building as the fire fight intensifies an Israel Armoured vehicle approaches the building where the Israeli Soldiers are, to cover their extraction and runs over the body of an already dead Terrorist!
Nothing to see hear just another hysterical post from a Wet Lettuce!
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
Read what MM put then what the Reuters report says……
Nicely ducking the EuroMed article? And if you can be bothered, (I doubt you will), there are plenty of reports of Israeli soldiers driving over Palestinians, some alive, some already dead - not that that should make any difference! There's even a video of an Israeli soldier admitting driving his tank over one. He claims accidentally, but the body is quite clearly visible to him!
I guess from your comments that you actually condone these atrocities as you don't seem to condemn them?
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I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
I call bullshit
And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
So we have the first Hysteria offering from a Pro Palestinian source
Israeli tanks "deliberately" ran over Palestinians alive on Sunday, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor has said in a statement.
The Geneva-based organisation described these crimes on Monday as "part of Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip."
And then we have the Reuters account which is totally different, Israeli Forces clash with extremists and three who were armed with Fit are killed outside a building as the fire fight intensifies an Israel Armoured vehicle approaches the building where the Israeli Soldiers are, to cover their extraction and runs over the body of an already dead Terrorist!
Nothing to see hear just another hysterical post from a Wet Lettuce!
So you don't trust a credible independant source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_Human_Rights_Monitor
There are lots of reports and recodings of these atrocities, but I guess that, like LDR you appear quite happy for them to be taking place as you don't decry them? Says so much about you.
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
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The fact that there are multiple incidents of Israel running over civilians in tanks, and that it's not immediately clear which specific incident I'm referring to, should set off alarm bells with the genocide deniers, you'd think. The Israelis have decades of form for this. Google Rachel Corrie.
There are also reports of pregnant women being crushed the same way, although at least the IDF had the courtesy to shoot them first. If you're going to defend genocide, that's what you're defending. Own it.
But. As I'm being called a liar:
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6202
The image has been blurred, but it doesn't leave much to the imagination. The uncensored images are out there if that's what you like to look at.
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
You clearly have great difficulty in reading. Or you couldn't be bothered to read both links. Because if you'd taken the time to read them both you would have seen that they were completely separate incidents. In fact, the first link cites 4, yes FOUR, separate incidents, all on different dates. Either way makes your response rather stupid wouldn't you say?
And you still find what Israel is doing acceptable!
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed....
Use by Israeli forces
See also: Israeli war crimes
The Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]
1948–1967
During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]
Second Intifada
Israeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]
According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]
Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]
In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]
In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]
In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]
In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]
In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]
The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]
"Neighbor procedure"
See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor Procedure
The IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]
Locating IDF buildings in cities
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]
2008–2009 Gaza War
During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]
An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]
On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]
2009 to the 2014 Gaza War
A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]
In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]
Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]
2022
In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]
A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]
2024
On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73]
Now why did you exclude all that information?
-
Slowly Israel are taking down Hamas now, they just need to keep it going, and when Hamas are asking for fifty named terrorists in exchange for one Israeli armed forces reserve woman Israel are quite happy to say no and keep things going.
Hamas seem to think they are still relevant and are willing on their side to keep their subjects in misery.
-
2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed....
Use by Israeli forces
See also: Israeli war crimes
The Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]
1948–1967
During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]
Second Intifada
Israeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]
According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]
Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]
In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]
In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]
In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]
In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]
In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]
The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]
"Neighbor procedure"
See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor Procedure
The IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]
Locating IDF buildings in cities
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]
2008–2009 Gaza War
During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]
An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]
On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]
2009 to the 2014 Gaza War
A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]
In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]
Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]
2022
In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]
A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]
2024
On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73]
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!
I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
-
2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed....
Use by Israeli forces
See also: Israeli war crimes
The Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]
1948–1967
During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]
Second Intifada
Israeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]
According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]
Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]
In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]
In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]
In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]
In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]
In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]
The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]
"Neighbor procedure"
See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor Procedure
The IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]
Locating IDF buildings in cities
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]
2008–2009 Gaza War
During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]
An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]
On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]
2009 to the 2014 Gaza War
A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]
In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]
Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]
2022
In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]
A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]
2024
On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73]
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!
I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
You were the one who brought up human shields FFS, and it was your post that had nothing to do with Israeli troops driving anything over anyone. I simply replied to your selective cut and paste with important facts that you selectively omitted regarding the use of human shields.
You firstly failed to recognise that there were different incidents of Israeli soldiers driving over people, some dead, some alive, on different dates. When this was pointed out to you you changed the subject with a selective quote about the use of human shields; and when I posted an important part of the page you selectively cut and pasted from you blame me for you changing the subject! It’s all there for anyone to read!
You do realise that the more you post the dafter you look?
-
Slowly Israel are taking down Hamas now, they just need to keep it going, and when Hamas are asking for fifty named terrorists in exchange for one Israeli armed forces reserve woman Israel are quite happy to say no and keep things going.
Hamas seem to think they are still relevant and are willing on their side to keep their subjects in misery.
A plea for more murder of civilians. Nice guy.
-
2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed....
Use by Israeli forces
See also: Israeli war crimes
The Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]
1948–1967
During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]
Second Intifada
Israeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]
According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]
Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]
In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]
In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]
In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]
In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]
In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]
The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]
"Neighbor procedure"
See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor Procedure
The IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]
Locating IDF buildings in cities
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]
2008–2009 Gaza War
During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]
An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]
On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]
2009 to the 2014 Gaza War
A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]
In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]
Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]
2022
In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]
A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]
2024
On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73]
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!
I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
You were the one who brought up human shields FFS, and it was your post that had nothing to do with Israeli troops driving anything over anyone. I simply replied to your selective cut and paste with important facts that you selectively omitted regarding the use of human shields.
You firstly failed to recognise that there were different incidents of Israeli soldiers driving over people, some dead, some alive, on different dates. When this was pointed out to you you changed the subject with a selective quote about the use of human shields; and when I posted an important part of the page you selectively cut and pasted from you blame me for you changing the subject! It’s all there for anyone to read!
You do realise that the more you post the dafter you look?
Not half as daft as you, notice you like to jump onto my posts and make some childish observations, interesting also to see BRR liked your post!
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2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Surely all that matters is the truth?
Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8
The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed....
Use by Israeli forces
See also: Israeli war crimes
The Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]
1948–1967
During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]
Second Intifada
Israeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]
According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]
Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]
In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]
In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]
In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]
In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]
In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]
The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]
"Neighbor procedure"
See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor Procedure
The IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]
Locating IDF buildings in cities
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]
2008–2009 Gaza War
During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]
An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]
On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]
2009 to the 2014 Gaza War
A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]
In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]
Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]
2022
In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]
A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]
2024
On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73]
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Now why did you exclude all that information?
Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!
I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
You were the one who brought up human shields FFS, and it was your post that had nothing to do with Israeli troops driving anything over anyone. I simply replied to your selective cut and paste with important facts that you selectively omitted regarding the use of human shields.
You firstly failed to recognise that there were different incidents of Israeli soldiers driving over people, some dead, some alive, on different dates. When this was pointed out to you you changed the subject with a selective quote about the use of human shields; and when I posted an important part of the page you selectively cut and pasted from you blame me for you changing the subject! It’s all there for anyone to read!
You do realise that the more you post the dafter you look?
Not half as daft as you, notice you like to jump onto my posts and make some childish observations, interesting also to see BRR liked your post!
Lets see. In answer to something LDR wrote I posted....
"And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too....
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843
and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/"
and you responded with....
"2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters."
Though, as we've already established, you clearly didn't read either link in my post yet you felt a need to comment on it. So it seems it was YOU that jumped on MY post! And where were my childish remarks, I simply posted the stuff you deliberately omitted, which isn't childish at all, just facts.
As I said, the more you post the dafter you look.
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Many more journalists have died in Gaza than in WW2 and the Vietnam War. Most are Palestinian. Many of their families have been targeted too. Why would this be?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-war-most-dangerous-ever-journalists-says-rights-group-2023-12-21/
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It would all end tomorrow if Hamas just surrendered, but no they are happy for themselves and dragging innocents into their suffering, must be a macho thing, or they don't actually give a flying fig for the people they are supposed to govern.
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It would all end tomorrow if Hamas just surrendered, but no they are happy for themselves and dragging innocents into their suffering, must be a macho thing, or they don't actually give a flying fig for the people they are supposed to govern.
I think they are still waiting for the Cavalry!
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It would all end tomorrow if Hamas just surrendered, but no they are happy for themselves and dragging innocents into their suffering, must be a macho thing, or they don't actually give a flying fig for the people they are supposed to govern.
The naiivity there is that "hamas" is an organisation headed by at least some who might not act in the best interests of Palestinians. It is however largely made up of Palestinians who are resolute in rebalancing the decades of abuse they have suffered at the hands of Israel and friends. Friends and family murdered and tortured in the past, land and homes robbed. And add onto that hamas fighters who have had friends and families butchered in this recent episode, and the many many recruits that have come from that. Israel cannot win with its genocide tactic and aim. Simple.
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Glad you pointed that out BRR, so they are are in it together to the bitter end eh? Why is it they are always running around like headless chickens on the news reports!
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Glad you pointed that out BRR, so they are are in it together to the bitter end eh? Why is it they are always running around like headless chickens on the news reports!
Don't know what exactly you're referring to. You in agreement with the insanity and futility of Israeli murdering then?
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Glad you pointed that out BRR, so they are are in it together to the bitter end eh? Why is it they are always running around like headless chickens on the news reports!
Don't know what exactly you're referring to. You in agreement with the insanity and futility of Israeli murdering then?
The old adage,”Might as well be hung for a sheep as a Lamb” seems to be ringing in Israeli Ears!
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It's not the hanging of Israel - that's already done, as you point out. It's their future insecity and destruction, the vastly increased death of their civilians in future years and decades.
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Slowly Israel are taking down Hamas now, they just need to keep it going, and when Hamas are asking for fifty named terrorists in exchange for one Israeli armed forces reserve woman Israel are quite happy to say no and keep things going.
Hamas seem to think they are still relevant and are willing on their side to keep their subjects in misery.
I never thought I would lose respect for somebody over a single post and whilst I am at it i hate all the shorters and those that support it out there and the Pension funds etc that lend their stock out (so it's "double bubble" for Selby) to drive down the shares of British Companies in a curry hurry so they can be taken over by foreigners
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Hamas must be ended, no question.
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They are really re-balancing things at about 3000 to 1 and getting longer odds at the moment BRR, but I suppose it doesn't matter when your a leader at the end of a phone giving it the ra ra in another country who thinks others sacrifice is worth while while they live it up miles from the firing line.
Can you imagine following B******S like that.
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It’s similar to Hitler Ringing General Von Paulus a few days before he surrendered the 6th German Army at Stalingrad and promoting him to field Marshal and adding” you are doing a wonderful job fighting to the last man! Just remember no German Field Marshall has ever surrendered his force to the enemy,”
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They are really re-balancing things at about 3000 to 1 and getting longer odds at the moment BRR, but I suppose it doesn't matter when your a leader at the end of a phone giving it the ra ra in another country who thinks others sacrifice is worth while while they live it up miles from the firing line.
Can you imagine following B******S like that.
My point is there are a growing number of people ready to kill Israelis. The current genocide is real, the victory is further away each day, the insanity of Israel is consistent.
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At 3000 to 1 they want to pack it in BRR. Iran are pushing them on, Egypt, Syria, and the Lebanon are just idly watching over the borders not making a move, in fact building walls to stop an overspill not in our back yard, the Chinese are re-educating them in the desert, and India don't like the ones they are stuck with, and them in North Africa can't get on with each other never mind the rest of the world, while running about with Rocket launches and toyota pick ups with what looks like a third of the worlds heavy machine guns on the back. and when they get a good hiding pull the wo is me suffering faces.
So what is it they have got that attracts you to Palestine when you have never come up supporting the rest? and why are their near neighbour brothers just playing token support and making noises while making sure they keep them at arms length, what's in it for them?
And why is it less of a crime against humanity for the Russians to invade a country and fire their latest Hypersonic missiles indiscriminately at civilian areas? is it a quieter subject because you know the sex and travel answer from Putin and he will mean it?
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First, Ukraine are the indiscrimate ones, with NATO weapons and old stock, including petal mines. Not saying Russia are clean that way but far far cleaner than Ukraine. The US wanted and created this proxy war, if you can't see that, do some research on a wide variety of neutral, pro western, pro Russian resources. Not nearly comparable situations, you know that though. The last line, explain, be specific. Anyway, on topic...
You ignored all I said before. I refer you to that.
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They are really re-balancing things at about 3000 to 1 and getting longer odds at the moment BRR, but I suppose it doesn't matter when your a leader at the end of a phone giving it the ra ra in another country who thinks others sacrifice is worth while while they live it up miles from the firing line.
Can you imagine following B******S like that.
My point is there are a growing number of people ready to kill Israelis. The current genocide is real, the victory is further away each day, the insanity of Israel is consistent.
I would argue that the number of people who are wanting to kill Israelis is growing due to the high birth rates in Muslim countries!
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And the hate S**T their parents, education and religion hammer into them from the day they are born SR. Nobody is born to think that way.
And then there are the people like BRR who think it's great, and don't realise the radicals hate them as much as the Jews.
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looks like the EU and the US have had enough of netanyahu
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And the hate S**T their parents, education and religion hammer into them from the day they are born SR. Nobody is born to think that way.
And then there are the people like BRR who think it's great, and don't realise the radicals hate them as much as the Jews.
Would that be Jews, or Israelis?
No one is born that way, you are totally correct. Where we seem to differ is you saying it's indoctrination that radicalised Palestinians, where I put more weight on people's experience of being bombed, having friends and relatives including your children, butchered and murdered and tortured and maimed, having homes stolen, homes destroyed, water sources stolen etc etc.
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My mother and father had that with the Germans BRR but I can't remember going to school, where by the way most male and some female teachers had just a few years before been part of the armed forces fighting for a free world, and being taught to hate everyone and thing German.
It was not a subject, the free world doing such a good job of conciliation and education that forty odd years later Communism fell in that part of the world peacefully, because their subjects could visibly see over the wall what true aspiration to be better off and have a better life rather than follow the doctrine of the East could bring to your life.
Like the Russian soldier interviewed at the start of the Ukrainian war saying, "We were told you had nothing but you have everything, we have nothing at home".
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
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Hate certainly is a problem aye?
''West Yorkshire police are investigating alleged racist comments made by the Conservative party donor Frank Hester about Diane Abbott at a meeting in 2019.
The force said it was working to establish whether a crime had been committed after the businessman allegedly said that Abbott, Britain’s longest-serving black MP, made “you want to hate all black women” and that she “should be shot”''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/22/police-investigate-alleged-racist-remarks-by-frank-hester
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
You've not thought this through. What do you call it when a force forcibly removes you from your home, kills you if you refuse. What do you call it when you are shot at and killed for peacefully demonstrated against an occupying force. Etc.
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
You've not thought this through. What do you call it when a force forcibly removes you from your home, kills you if you refuse. What do you call it when you are shot at and killed for peacefully demonstrated against an occupying force. Etc.
Maybe ask some Ukrainians?
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
You've not thought this through. What do you call it when a force forcibly removes you from your home, kills you if you refuse. What do you call it when you are shot at and killed for peacefully demonstrated against an occupying force. Etc.
Maybe ask some Ukrainians?
Nah, Ukrainians never went near Gaza or the West Bank. I'm fairly sure of that.
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Or most Jewish communities throughout Europe and the middle East, and you could also ask what they feel like in places like London at the moment every weekend.
BRR most pilots the Israeli Air force had in their earlier wars quoted were Russian and disaffected eastern Europeans escaping communism and persecution in their own countries, many of the Jews that fought for the allies in the second world war returned to their country of birth to find their homes and belongings confiscated with no recourse to regain their property, especially in Poland where they lost a court ruling not that long ago about compensation for lost assets of the families houses, art woks etc.
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
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Or most Jewish communities throughout Europe and the middle East, and you could also ask what they feel like in places like London at the moment every weekend.
BRR most pilots the Israeli Air force had in their earlier wars quoted were Russian and disaffected eastern Europeans escaping communism and persecution in their own countries, many of the Jews that fought for the allies in the second world war returned to their country of birth to find their homes and belongings confiscated with no recourse to regain their property, especially in Poland where they lost a court ruling not that long ago about compensation for lost assets of the families houses, art woks etc.
Well these members of the London Jewish community seem quite angry that other people are using them as cover for their own hatred rather than acknowledging that thousands of Jews oppose what Netanyahu is doing and how he is doing it. Is that what you meant?
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
You've not thought this through. What do you call it when a force forcibly removes you from your home, kills you if you refuse. What do you call it when you are shot at and killed for peacefully demonstrated against an occupying force. Etc.
Answer the question don’t avoid it?
Who started those Wars?
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
Sorry Wilts typo should have been 1947, and of course I know when the Arab revolt Started, by the way who was the British Officer who cut his teeth in the Arab revolt, I have asked you this before, you will need a trip to a library!
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Or most Jewish communities throughout Europe and the middle East, and you could also ask what they feel like in places like London at the moment every weekend.
BRR most pilots the Israeli Air force had in their earlier wars quoted were Russian and disaffected eastern Europeans escaping communism and persecution in their own countries, many of the Jews that fought for the allies in the second world war returned to their country of birth to find their homes and belongings confiscated with no recourse to regain their property, especially in Poland where they lost a court ruling not that long ago about compensation for lost assets of the families houses, art woks etc.
Would they be Russian and Eastern European Jews?
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
Sorry Wilts typo should have been 1947, and of course I know when the Arab revolt Started, by the way who was the British Officer who cut his teeth in the Arab revolt, I have asked you this before, you will need a trip to a library!
Did you not read WR reply to you? Nor able to understand what I said to you? Have a try.
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
Sorry Wilts typo should have been 1947, and of course I know when the Arab revolt Started, by the way who was the British Officer who cut his teeth in the Arab revolt, I have asked you this before, you will need a trip to a library!
Haha, don't worry I have been to the archives instead. Go online and search for GSM Palestine clasp awards and you will see what I came up with.
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
Sorry Wilts typo should have been 1947, and of course I know when the Arab revolt Started, by the way who was the British Officer who cut his teeth in the Arab revolt, I have asked you this before, you will need a trip to a library!
Haha, don't worry I have been to the archives instead. Go online and search for GSM Palestine clasp awards and you will see what I came up with.
It was pre 1945, anyway it’s difficult and I admire your tenacity, it was Major General Orde Wingate, creator of the Chindits. His Biography is a good read!
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Re The Palestinians can you give me an example of when they did not start a war! 1937? 1967? 1973?
2023?
Yes every year except the ones you have mentioned - and most of those are wrong (the Arab revolt began in 1936, there was no Palestinian Force involved in 1967 or 1973).
Sorry Wilts typo should have been 1947, and of course I know when the Arab revolt Started, by the way who was the British Officer who cut his teeth in the Arab revolt, I have asked you this before, you will need a trip to a library!
Haha, don't worry I have been to the archives instead. Go online and search for GSM Palestine clasp awards and you will see what I came up with.
It was pre 1945, anyway it’s difficult and I admire your tenacity, it was Major General Orde Wingate, creator of the Chindits. His Biography is a good read!
No problem. I used to work for Forces War Records (I even helped a few other members out with their research) and I did transcribe the GSM Palestine Clasp medal rolls. Unfortunately under the terms of my redundancy when Ancestry took us over and closed us down I can't pass anything onto you (or anyone else) but go research the original awards online. That's my work.
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I might take you up on that Wilts, thanks
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Slowly Israel are taking down Hamas now, they just need to keep it going, and when Hamas are asking for fifty named terrorists in exchange for one Israeli armed forces reserve woman Israel are quite happy to say no and keep things going.
Hamas seem to think they are still relevant and are willing on their side to keep their subjects in misery.
I never thought I would lose respect for somebody over a single post and whilst I am at it i hate all the shorters and those that support it out there and the Pension funds etc that lend their stock out (so it's "double bubble" for Selby) to drive down the shares of British Companies in a curry hurry so they can be taken over by foreigners
Don't know how a subject about Israel got into short selling but now you're talking my language. Short selling is arguably necessary for an orderly market. If you think a company is really good and want to back it and and enjoy potential wealth you can buy shares. If you think the opposite and a company is overpriced you should be able to sell it. British companies get taken over because they are garbage and lack innovation. ARK being one of the few exception
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The first real chance of a breakthrough since the increase in hostilities began.
''Israel isolated as UN security council demands immediate ceasefire in Gaza
Palestinian ambassador hails ‘vote for humanity to prevail’ after US abstains, raising hopes for breakthrough in hostage talks''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/un-gaza-ceasefire-vote
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I wonder if all these protesters are going to be called antisemitic too...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705643
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Looks as though netanyahu wants to start ww3 with the powers to ban media he doesn't want the people of Israel to see and boming who the hell he wants.
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What he gets up to in his personal life iis up to him, though something does need to be done if it's genuinely not consensual.
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Looks as though netanyahu wants to start ww3 with the powers to ban media he doesn't want the people of Israel to see and boming who the hell he wants.
I didn’t know he was a bomer too Syd!
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all the paddants are back in town I see
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So the ICJ tells Israel to stop blocking aid from reaching people in Gaza. Then Israel launches a series of very public targeted airstrikes on aid convoys, killing foreign aid workers. This causes aid ships and convoys to turn around and retreat from Gaza out of fear. Pretty transparent what Israel is doing here, with these "accidental" air strikes that take out three separate vehicles with surgical precision.
3 of the murdered workers were British, so Sunak calls up Netanyahu and tells him it's "intolerable"... but then we're continuing to arm Israel with the weapons they're using to murder British civilians (in addition to the thousands of dead Palestinians). Labour confirms they'd continue to arm Israel as well. So it seems we actually will tolerate it.
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Macho, you do realise that Israel have the third largest weapons industry in the world behind the USA and Russia don't you.
All we would be doing is putting our own workers out of work, meanwhile Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organisations have soaked up arms from Russia and China and every arms manufacturer willing to supply them, and no doubt the French and any other manufacturer would step straight in and supply what we don't.
It's big bucks morals don't come into it, its sound bites for a couple of days.
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Macho, you do realise that Israel have the third largest weapons industry in the world behind the USA and Russia don't you.
All we would be doing is putting our own workers out of work, meanwhile Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organisations have soaked up arms from Russia and China and every arms manufacturer willing to supply them, and no doubt the French and any other manufacturer would step straight in and supply what we don't.
It's big bucks morals don't come into it, its sound bites for a couple of days.
It's not soundbites, it's lives. Bucks before morals eh? Mental. Can I rob you?
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You can try
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Some might be wondering what security guards are doing on a charity convoy in a foreign country and a war zone, it could be the £300 to £500 a day tax free they would expect companies to pay them.
The companies that hire them are on a good screw, but of course some might do it out of love.
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Some might be wondering what security guards are doing on a charity convoy in a foreign country and a war zone, it could be the £300 to £500 a day tax free they would expect companies to pay them.
The companies that hire them are on a good screw, but of course some might do it out of love.
Doesn't stop you being murdered by the IDF tho.
Still the apologists for the Israeli Army atrocities will find a way to excuse it.
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one armed Hamas gun man was in the convoy, they didn't know what vehicle
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one armed Hamas gun man was in the convoy, they didn't know what vehicle
Even the Israeli military have posted it was a case of misidentification, yet you still peddle your bigoted attempts at justifying the murder of 7 aid workers.
You really are a man of zero morals.
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I am not trying to justify anything, it was a report by a surveyance expert on a news cast at lunch saying that Gaza is the most watched area on Earth at the moment with drones, satellite, and fixed cameras and that is what the Israeli's picked up on.
Are you saying there is no likely hood of a gun man being identified among the group?
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I am not trying to justify anything, it was a report by a surveyance expert on a news cast at lunch saying that Gaza is the most watched area on Earth at the moment with drones, satellite, and fixed cameras and that is what the Israeli's picked up on.
Are you saying there is no likely hood of a gun man being identified among the group?
Yet with all this equipment they can't tell the difference between their own people surrendering with white flags in the open and they have their photographs?
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one armed Hamas gun man was in the convoy, they didn't know what vehicle
You sound like netanyahu's mouthpiece selby
''The World Central Kitchen has described the seven aid workers who were killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza as the “very best of humanity”. Three British nationals, an Australian, a Polish national, an American-Canadian dual citizen and a Palestinian were killed when their convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse on Monday.
Here is what is known about the victims:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/pressure-grows-on-israel-over-gaza-tactics-after-foreign-aid-worker-deaths
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Excellent vid looking at the wet Israeli response to killing aid workers. Specifically the Channel 4 interview with David Mencer. Also a sharp take on things from around 8 mins by Dalia Gebrial.
https://youtu.be/xSl-F7iU6z4?si=iJ9CYDy7eUH5paM_
What do you understand from this Selby? Sproty, or other pro Israelis too.
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
Because the guardian didn’t tell them to?
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
Because the guardian didn’t tell them to?
Can't imagine why people weren't on here posting about the Iran/Iraq war in 1980. A real headscratcher that one.
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It’s a war and one side Hamas doesn’t abide by the rules of war, this sort of stuff was always going Happen it’s is easy to end the conflict Hamas merely has to hand over the hostages, world opinion will then force Israel to call a Ceasfire and start negotiations, its simple really!
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It's not simple because people don't recognise the threat the radical Islamic factions pose, the lefties don't realise they are just as much hated as me by those factions and would be treated just the same way beheaded, subjugated, or traded.
Don't think for one minute they are not here in this country and throughout Europe, and will gradually take over local government political parties, and the civil service.
When you educate youngsters to hate from the day they were born, you end up with a hateful population and the religious leaders, some in this country are hell bent on carrying on their crusade and are being allowed to spread their hate., hence the situation the world finds itself in, and millions gobble the tripe they pedal.
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I was in Turkey/Kurdistan in 1981 when things were tense to say the least. Beyond that, I've kept abreast of the various conflicts there. It's all very complex for sure.
The US creating and feeding ISIS and their offshoots isn't helping. Blair and his weapons of mass destruction saga didn't help either.
There are gangsters the world over, state gangsters and those lower down the pecking order, that create mayhem, that rob, abuse and kill ordinary folks. Yes Turkey, Saudi are terrible. Israel and their backers are among the worst when you are looking at outside interference. The brainwashing of their population is insane - see that vid I linked to above for instance.
Saying if Hamas released the hostages etc and things will get sorted by the international community is bizarre. This has been going on for decades, the international community has done diddly squat. Why would they change?
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I am not trying to justify anything, it was a report by a surveyance expert on a news cast at lunch saying that Gaza is the most watched area on Earth at the moment with drones, satellite, and fixed cameras and that is what the Israeli's picked up on.
Are you saying there is no likely hood of a gun man being identified among the group?
Yes. In a convoy in which the IDF had been given full idenification and travel details.
It's been 6 months since 200+ hostages have been captured by terrorists. Why is it in 'the most watched country on earth' almost none have been released by military action and several killed by their own airstrikes? Do you not think your 'experts' might not be as expert as you think?
And are you also saying that Israeli Army apologists dont lie to jusitfy the IDF atrocities?
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It's not simple because people don't recognise the threat the radical Islamic factions pose, the lefties don't realise they are just as much hated as me by those factions and would be treated just the same way beheaded, subjugated, or traded.
Don't think for one minute they are not here in this country and throughout Europe, and will gradually take over local government political parties, and the civil service.
When you educate youngsters to hate from the day they were born, you end up with a hateful population and the religious leaders, some in this country are hell bent on carrying on their crusade and are being allowed to spread their hate., hence the situation the world finds itself in, and millions gobble the tripe they pedal.
Agreed Selby. There are some people in this country hell bent on carrying on their crusade & being allowed to spread their hate. Not all of them, in fact not many of them, being Muslim.
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Only a few Wilts? head in sand comes to mind.
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Crusade... that's a weirdo Christian invasion thing, isn't it? Where was it they invaded? Who sponsored it? Why? Are we still celebrating it?
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It's not simple because people don't recognise the threat the radical Islamic factions pose, the lefties don't realise they are just as much hated as me by those factions and would be treated just the same way beheaded, subjugated, or traded.
Don't think for one minute they are not here in this country and throughout Europe, and will gradually take over local government political parties, and the civil service.
When you educate youngsters to hate from the day they were born, you end up with a hateful population and the religious leaders, some in this country are hell bent on carrying on their crusade and are being allowed to spread their hate., hence the situation the world finds itself in, and millions gobble the tripe they pedal.
Agreed Selby. There are some people in this country hell bent on carrying on their crusade & being allowed to spread their hate. Not all of them, in fact not many of them, being Muslim.
Ah,the embarrassing defending of the Cenotaph.
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Only a few Wilts? head in sand comes to mind.
Whoosh moment incoming soon.
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
they're all the same
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
they're all the same
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
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What I don't understand is that it has been going on for years and nobody gave a a fig because it was Muslim on Muslim
Assad , Isis, the Iraq and Iran war using chemical weapons, Turkey hammering the Kurds for years, Saudi and Iran having spats, Saudi and Lebanon millions killed although not noticed so much because they breed like flies which is encouraged by their religious leaders to undermine and overcome western society, and use it as a weapon and not a muff from the left wingers on here or anywhere else and many more atrocities murders and crimes against human race being committed than in Gaza.
Where were you? Why didn't people spend the weekend marching up and down pissing into the wind in London then? why has Bristol, Syd and the rest suddenly woken up to the cries of wo is me because Israel are involved, did they even realise the rest was going on because factions in this country undermining our structure kept quiet, so it didn't concern them then, was it because they couldn't gain anything politically for their lefty views?
they're all the same
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
Australian Black Angus Beef is lovely too! Though I was a bit wary at first as I thought it might send me crackers like Syd!
They're all the same.
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I would hate to think there was many the same as you and Syd, we would be in a bad way.
How's the neighbours and statues your way?
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I would hate to think there was many the same as you and Syd, we would be in a bad way.
How's the neighbours and statues your way?
That's your main problem selby, you don't think
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Must admit Syd I don't think much about you, your right in that.
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Must admit Syd I don't think much about you, your right in that.
To be honest there are a few of us who hold you in very low esteem Syd!
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Hello anybody there, I can't here any aghast at the hostage being found murdered in cold blood, I guess just one of the many they will find and the reason Hamas will not stop the war while they have got thousands gobbling their woh is me rhetoric.
Anyone who supports a Hamas led Palestine acknowledges cold blooded murder as a weapon they can use with impunity.
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Hello anybody there, I can't here any aghast at the hostage being found murdered in cold blood, I guess just one of the many they will find and the reason Hamas will not stop the war while they have got thousands gobbling their woh is me rhetoric.
Anyone who supports a Hamas led Palestine acknowledges cold blooded murder as a weapon they can use with impunity.
Murdered in cold blood. Terrible if that's the case, as are the 35,000 murdered in cold blood civilians by Israel. However, would that Israeli "intelligence" that reported they were murdered in cold blood be related to the Israeli "intelligence" that targets aid workers, children, and thinks mass murder, genocide, will help Israelis sleep safer.
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Take your shades off buddy, your finding it hard to see the end of your nose.
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Take your shades off buddy, your finding it hard to see the end of your nose.
One dead v thirty five thousand.... embarressing.
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Hello anybody there, I can't here any aghast at the hostage being found murdered in cold blood, I guess just one of the many they will find and the reason Hamas will not stop the war while they have got thousands gobbling their woh is me rhetoric.
Anyone help with a translation?
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
Grooming?
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
Grooming?
You Grooming again Pearly ?
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
Grooming?
You Grooming again Pearly ?
One of your usual pearls of wisdom has put me well and truly in my place.
You don't half make me laugh.
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
Grooming?
You Grooming again Pearly ?
One of your usual pearls of wisdom has put me well and truly in my place.
You don't half make me laugh.
It sounds like absolute chaos in the nursing home tonight
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Iberian Red, gobble gobble
Grooming?
You Grooming again Pearly ?
One of your usual pearls of wisdom has put me well and truly in my place.
You don't half make me laugh.
It sounds like absolute chaos in the nursing home tonight
You due another 8 month ‘Sabbatical Sydd?
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Hello anybody there, I can't here any aghast at the hostage being found murdered in cold blood, I guess just one of the many they will find and the reason Hamas will not stop the war while they have got thousands gobbling their woh is me rhetoric.
Anyone help with a translation?
I read it three times and gave up.
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Have another go, you will get there.
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Something about dust?
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That's all that will be left when they go into Rafah.
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Moves in the UN Security Council under the leadership of Malta to instate Palestine as a full member of the UN. A significant step towards a two state solution, and peace. Obviously Israel objects, and so it will come down to the US and its Brit lapdog to come to the right decision.
https://youtu.be/O6axSiQHS-0?si=2dQxKP477fHLEa7B
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''Penny Wong says peace for Israel will only come with Palestinian state recognition''
''Australia's foreign minister says peace and security will only come to Israel if Palestine is recognised as a state.
Foreign Minister Penny Wong used an address at the Australian National University on Tuesday night to announce that the federal government was contemplating recognising Palestinian statehood.
She said international recognition could help "build momentum towards a two-state solution with Israel''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-10/penny-wong-repeats-call-for-palestinian-state-recognition/103688862
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Hmm a state governed by Terrorists… let me think!!!
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Interesting video by Richard Sanders, who made the Aljazeera doc on the myths promoted in the media after the October 7 attack;
https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2024/april/10/what-really-happened-on-october-7
Worth a listen!
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Interesting video by Richard Sanders, who made the Aljazeera doc on the myths promoted in the media after the October 7 attack;
https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2024/april/10/what-really-happened-on-october-7
Worth a listen!
Watched it, interesting stuff, I don’t doubt that 50 Israeli Civilians were killed by friendly fire in the chaos that followed the armed Incursion,there seems to be some attempt to suggest that the Israeli Secret service were aware of the build up of Hamas troops prior to the attack ,very doubtful unless you believe that a few Zionists were crazy enough to risk losing half the state of Israel so they could then re group and capture Gaza, the downside is Richard Saunders works for Al Jazeera News so it can’t be judged as a totally neutral report.
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Hmm a state governed by Terrorists… let me think!!!
The UK, USA, Russia, China, France, Ukraine, Israel, Saudi, Syria, Mexico, et flipping C? I think in that list Israel and USA are worth a double mention. I'd check to see if they're under your bed.
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Interesting video by Richard Sanders, who made the Aljazeera doc on the myths promoted in the media after the October 7 attack;
https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2024/april/10/what-really-happened-on-october-7
Worth a listen!
Watched it, interesting stuff, I don’t doubt that 50 Israeli Civilians were killed by friendly fire in the chaos that followed the armed Incursion,there seems to be some attempt to suggest that the Israeli Secret service were aware of the build up of Hamas troops prior to the attack ,very doubtful unless you believe that a few Zionists were crazy enough to risk losing half the state of Israel so they could then re group and capture Gaza, the downside is Richard Saunders works for Al Jazeera News so it can’t be judged as a totally neutral report.
There was no risk of losing half of Israel.
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Interesting video by Richard Sanders, who made the Aljazeera doc on the myths promoted in the media after the October 7 attack;
https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2024/april/10/what-really-happened-on-october-7
Worth a listen!
Watched it, interesting stuff, I don’t doubt that 50 Israeli Civilians were killed by friendly fire in the chaos that followed the armed Incursion,there seems to be some attempt to suggest that the Israeli Secret service were aware of the build up of Hamas troops prior to the attack ,very doubtful unless you believe that a few Zionists were crazy enough to risk losing half the state of Israel so they could then re group and capture Gaza, the downside is Richard Saunders works for Al Jazeera News so it can’t be judged as a totally neutral report.
There was no risk of losing half of Israel.
Oh I didn’t realise you were a military expert from from posts, then again maybe not!
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The bible can't be used instead of google maps
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Richard Sanders is a UK based investigative journalist, who has worked for Ch4 Dispatches among others.
His documentary investigation on Aljazeera is here;
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims
Some disturbing images, so be warned!
The important question for the UK is why news outlets here shy away from this kind of analysis, in favour of bland commentary?
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Is commentary ever bland? It always has an angle even when seemingly just passing on info. And that angle is reflective of an agenda whether an intentional one or an "institutional" one. Plus the public have had the tastes of their news diet force fed for ever.
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BRR,that could well be.
What's your opinion of the media in Russia,apart from being controlled by a dictator?
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BRR,that could well be.
What's your opinion of the media in Russia,apart from being controlled by a dictator?
Wrong thread. But what I said applies universally. What do you think?
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
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Wipe Iran from the map, the world wouldn’t miss them (paging BRR to defend Iran)
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
Israel did blow up the Iranian embassy in Syria though, so they can't be surprised.
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
Israel did blow up the Iranian embassy in Syria though, so they can't be surprised.
To take out a man who was at the heart of supplying Iranian missiles to Hezbollah to attack Israel
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
Israel did blow up the Iranian embassy in Syria though, so they can't be surprised.
To take out a man who was at the heart of supplying Iranian missiles to Hezbollah to attack Israel
Everyone knows Hezbollah and Hamas work with Iran, it's a whole different story actually attacking Iran and being surprised when they retaliate.
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This situation could escalate very quickly and badly.
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Odds on Israel retaliating?
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Odds on Israel retaliating?
I think you'll be lucky to get anyone take you on with that bet
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Looks as though Iran launched a face saving effort for the home crowd and has intimated it won't launch more.
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
Israel did blow up the Iranian embassy in Syria though, so they can't be surprised.
To take out a man who was at the heart of supplying Iranian missiles to Hezbollah to attack Israel
Everyone knows Hezbollah and Hamas work with Iran, it's a whole different story actually attacking Iran and being surprised when they retaliate.
That’s a fair point but it could still be argued as a precise act of self-defence. Rather than what Iran sent.
I don’t think I’ve seen any recognition from the anti-Israel crowd of Hezbollah even attacking Israel. Are they freedom fighters fighting persecution too?
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
Even more interesting to see the response to this weeks attacks by hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, murdering locals and setting their homes on fire. And the eviction of Christians from an area of Jerusalem they have lived in for centuries.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl/index.html
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/12-april/news/world/israeli-police-accused-of-eviction-from-armenian-site-in-jerusalem
Just so you know who you are 'supporting'.
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I think Iran's nuclear capability is going to be reduced to rubble as a consequence of this attack .
I would imagine that's something the US would be happy to back and probably take part in .
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I think Iran's nuclear capability is going to be reduced to rubble as a consequence of this attack .
I would imagine that's something the US would be happy to back and probably take part in .
You are spot on with that Tyke that is the very least that will happen, and it needs to be done because if it isn’t the Pariah state will use them .I would take out a few dozen military sites as well, I bet they are Kacking themselves in Tehran, it just shows how feeble their military is!we will now see the Israelis end the opposition in Gaza and South Lebanon.
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
Even more interesting to see the response to this weeks attacks by hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, murdering locals and setting their homes on fire. And the eviction of Christians from an area of Jerusalem they have lived in for centuries.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl/index.html
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/12-april/news/world/israeli-police-accused-of-eviction-from-armenian-site-in-jerusalem
Just so you know who you are 'supporting'.
They are certainly pushing boundaries that don’t endear them to fair minded decent people.
They can’t follow this path for much longer surely?
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
Even more interesting to see the response to this weeks attacks by hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, murdering locals and setting their homes on fire. And the eviction of Christians from an area of Jerusalem they have lived in for centuries.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl/index.html
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/12-april/news/world/israeli-police-accused-of-eviction-from-armenian-site-in-jerusalem
Just so you know who you are 'supporting'.
They are certainly pushing boundaries that don’t endear them to fair minded decent people.
They can’t follow this path for much longer surely?
Been happening for 70 years, why would it stop now?
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
Even more interesting to see the response to this weeks attacks by hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, murdering locals and setting their homes on fire. And the eviction of Christians from an area of Jerusalem they have lived in for centuries.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl/index.html
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/12-april/news/world/israeli-police-accused-of-eviction-from-armenian-site-in-jerusalem
Just so you know who you are 'supporting'.
They are certainly pushing boundaries that don’t endear them to fair minded decent people.
They can’t follow this path for much longer surely?
Been happening for 70 years, why would it stop now?
They are getting away with all this because the Large Liberal part of Israel’s population has been reigned in towards the right by the events of 7 October.
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Reigned in by the extreme propaganda there for sure, but also because the US, Germany, UK etc are supporting Israel in being severely insane.
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I think Iran's nuclear capability is going to be reduced to rubble as a consequence of this attack .
I would imagine that's something the US would be happy to back and probably take part in .
You are spot on with that Tyke that is the very least that will happen, and it needs to be done because if it isn’t the Pariah state will use them .I would take out a few dozen military sites as well, I bet they are Kacking themselves in Tehran, it just shows how feeble their military is!we will now see the Israelis end the opposition in Gaza and South Lebanon.
Anytime extreme Islam is exterminated is fine by me .
I don't much have to like those carrying it out to support it .
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What about extreme Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists?
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Is there such a thing as an extreme Buddhist? :laugh:
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Is there such a thing as an extreme Buddhist? :laugh:
Ask the Tamils or Rohingya.
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Iran have fired multiple drone and cruise missiles to Israel. Biden is addressing his nation from the Oval Office soon.
Iran were warned.
Interesting to see what the US response will be.
Israel did blow up the Iranian embassy in Syria though, so they can't be surprised.
To take out a man who was at the heart of supplying Iranian missiles to Hezbollah to attack Israel
I believe Netanyaho was deliberately trying to escalate things with that attack. Why else would he not have informed his American allies of the plan first?
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There were a fair few major explosions in Israel from the attack. I wonder what was hit? <added> I'm hearing that one hit target was an airbase, which makes sense given that is where the attack on the Iranian Consulate in Damascus came from. <\added>
I heard the cost of air defence just for that one attack was around $1 billion. If so, Israel won't be sitting back. Escalation is already a concern within the nations involved, but it could easily draw in others.
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They already have, Jordan and Iraq have had their Airspace violated and missiles have been shot down over their territory. I doubt CD either country is happy with that!
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They already have, Jordan and Iraq have had their Airspace violated and missiles have been shot down over their territory. I doubt CD either country is happy with that!
Yes, though I meant beyond these, and the UK, US, Yemen.
Still, how much the US, and its lapdog, further gets I evolved will be important. The US has a fair bit of hardware close to Iran, and bodies. All will become legitimate targets if the US acts beyond being on the perifery.
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They already have, Jordan and Iraq have had their Airspace violated and missiles have been shot down over their territory. I doubt CD either country is happy with that!
Yes, though I meant beyond these, and the UK, US, Yemen.
Still, how much the US, and its lapdog, further gets I evolved will be important. The US has a fair bit of hardware close to Iran, and bodies. All will become legitimate targets if the US acts beyond being on the perifery.
Yanks still have to get their pound of flesh for the hostage Crisis of 1979
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Interesting to see which countries have the right to defend themselves and which countries don't.
Yes, it is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and see the reaction to the Iran backed Oct 7th Hamas attack was
Even more interesting to see the response to this weeks attacks by hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian villagers in the West Bank, murdering locals and setting their homes on fire. And the eviction of Christians from an area of Jerusalem they have lived in for centuries.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl/index.html
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/12-april/news/world/israeli-police-accused-of-eviction-from-armenian-site-in-jerusalem
Just so you know who you are 'supporting'.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention I didn’t know. That’s very sad. If you paid attention to what I’ve said multiple times I’ve said I don’t agree with what the IDF allow to happen in the West Bank with regards to the behaviour of settlers.
I also think that despite them having a reason to, that the consulate attack was very reckless and the motive should be questioned with regards to an obvious expectation of escalation.
Israel has faced hostility for decades just for existing. It is now facing attack from 4 different quarters:
The Islamic extremist (essentially fascist) terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah who want Israel gone.
The Houthis, who have brought back slavery.
And an Iranian regime that treat their own women brutally. Try being a minority there. This regime funds and arms all of the above.
Israel, while it is not perfect is our ally and is the only true democracy in the Middle East.
So you’re seeing it in black and white without nuance to think that because I’m not vociferously anti-Israel that I support everything that they do and don’t expect better from them going forward.
What do you think of Iran, Houthis, Hezbollah and Hamas? Do you feel that are betraying your political tribe and appearing to be an ‘Israel Supporter’ if you criticise them?
P.S. you never gave any evidence as to why you thought I had a previous account on this site.
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I also don’t think Israel should retaliate in this instance.
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I also don’t think Israel should retaliate in this instance.
It's what Netanyahu seems keen on doing. I don't trust him an inch. Eliminating Hamas appears to involve the elimination or displacement of the Gazan people.
He seems intent on broadening the war and pulling the west into it. Just at a time when Russia is engaging in a war with the west. It's stirring up a new world war.
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The Iranians can’t even state that they have evidence that shows Israel attacked the ‘Military Annex’ in the neighbourhood of their Consul really. So the only evidence is circumstantial
Hardly gives them the right to fire 500 or so Missiles and Drones at Israel.
If they do retaliate it will have to be a very bid one! They can put some 500 Aircraft into the Air and drop some 4,000 tons of bombs so we know they can do it but they need to choose appropriate targets and limit civilian ones! Mind you we can’t put anything past the Iranians, they are capable of concocting all sorts of evidence!
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No one but Israel wants to escalate this. Not the Americans who have already said they aren't going to war with Iran. Not even the Iranians who flagged up what they intended to do and quickly said it's done with now.
It's Netanyahu and the Israeli right who are trying to set this course. There should be no retaliation against Iran.
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RD its all in the plan of a wider war against the West, and they need stopping, it is the same tactics the Chinese have used in the far East pushing the boundaries over time, but with the sinister spread of influence through religion and political influence.
First they pushed the boundary on October the 7th to see what reaction the West would take, then they milk it for all it is worth knowing that the soft underbelly will go on anti Israel marches etc when they react with force, all the time using the sympathy reaction by hiding in civil enclaves and so including women and children in the colaterol damage.
Then as soon as they think they have an excuse when high ranking officers controlling Hamas are killed move their red line a notch up with an attack pushing again to see the West's reaction hoping for the soft reaction so they can in their eyes restore their so called honour and plan something else to push the red line up a notch again while looking for the excuse to do so, the question is what next? a spectacular at the Euro's or the Olympics, or an easier city terrorist attack they can cover the trail with by using one of their proxy terrorist organisation's, and when will the USA and the West say enough is enough.
The way they act, should we have bombed them after the Iranian embassy incident and the police woman killed in London.
If we thought like they do, probably we should have
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Aye, there's some folks with nasty agendas out there, and then there's others that regurgitate those agendas without the semblance of self awareness.
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Aye, there's some folks with nasty agendas out there, and then there's others that regurgitate those agendas without the semblance of self awareness.
Oh the irony
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Aye, there's some folks with nasty agendas out there, and then there's others that regurgitate those agendas without the semblance of self awareness.
Let me guess, Iran aren’t as bad as we all think or something?
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Aye, there's some folks with nasty agendas out there, and then there's others that regurgitate those agendas without the semblance of self awareness.
Let me guess, Iran aren’t as bad as we all think or something?
Let me have a guess Hamas aren’t as bad as everyone makes them out to be!
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Let's say geo politics, who is connected with who, the intended strategy behind all that, isn't as obvious as you'd think. The US and ISIS is the prime example there.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
No, caused by a bunch of desperate bullies choosing to murder them. Check out the statements of intent over a long period of time by the Israeli leaders. Sick.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
That would explain a handful, not 30,000+ civilians dead. They're leveling towns and cities, they don't care, prime example killing the aid workers last week.
They're just radicalising children by murdering their innocent family members in front of them, which will cause another cycle in years time.
Hamas are evil.
The government of Israel and the IDF are evil.
October the 7th wasn't the beginning of this conflict, it's been going on for decades and hadn't paused like some believe prior to a few months ago. There was/is still the land grabs by Israelis, murder of Palestinian children at the border, apartheid, etc. The horrific terrorist attack by Hamas and their allies in the West Bank just gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go in and kill Palestinians.
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Do you reckon that Hamas got the nod! From Isreal to go on a fervent Rape and Pillage raid, to give Isreal an excuse to wipe out the Palestinians?
I would have thought we would be looking at Several hundred thousand dead if the Israelis had gone down that road!
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Do you reckon that Hamas got the nod! From Isreal to go on a fervent Rape and Pillage raid, to give Isreal an excuse to wipe out the Palestinians?
I would have thought we would be looking at Several hundred thousand dead if the Israelis had gone down that road!
What are you on about?
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Do you reckon that Hamas got the nod! From Isreal to go on a fervent Rape and Pillage raid, to give Isreal an excuse to wipe out the Palestinians?
I would have thought we would be looking at Several hundred thousand dead if the Israelis had gone down that road!
What are you on about?
You seem to be blaming Israel for the situation in Gaza not Hamas?
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So a sick religion that push the boundaries who have attacked a hotel in India, attack their own kind for having a different perspective of their religion ending up killing a million in Iran and Iraq, have tried to establish with some success a califate by murder chucking people off High rise buildings, beheading westerners, raping women, killed people in Manchester, Paris, Moscow, and Brussels by blowing up and attacking concert goers, have attacked buses and transport in London committing murder, kidnapped children in Africa, committed Rape and prostituted young girls in numerous towns and cities in the UK and have enough influence over the authorities to suppress the media, Attack shipping to disrupt trade to the West and cause everyone of us to pay more to live a normal life cheaper. Have attacked with swords people in the centre of London out for a meal, beheaded in the street a military soldier in London, and celebrate 9/11, are currently causing war and misery in the Sudan and other African countries and brutally kill maim and torture anyone in their way plus many more atrocities all over the world, and that is ok is it, they are the goodies, yeh right.
If that's OK and they are not a threat, you can't see as far as the end of your nose, or you are as thick as a plank.
Oh and by the way, they would hate me, so what I have had my day, but don't be fooled, if you back them up they will use you, but they will hate you as much as me.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
That would explain a handful, not 30,000+ civilians dead. They're leveling towns and cities, they don't care, prime example killing the aid workers last week.
They're just radicalising children by murdering their innocent family members in front of them, which will cause another cycle in years time.
Hamas are evil.
The government of Israel and the IDF are evil.
October the 7th wasn't the beginning of this conflict, it's been going on for decades and hadn't paused like some believe prior to a few months ago. There was/is still the land grabs by Israelis, murder of Palestinian children at the border, apartheid, etc. The horrific terrorist attack by Hamas and their allies in the West Bank just gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go in and kill Palestinians.
Come on DO. You know that while civilian deaths are of course sad that the 30,000+ figure quoted by the Gazan Health Ministry is not accurate. BRR has admitted this too but still uses their data. Why?
Their definition of a civilian is extremely broad and includes Hamas terrorists. Terrorists who look to maximise civilian casualties themselves to further their cause.
Hamas are just one of Iran’s many proxies. Oct 7th was engineered by them. Let us not forget that Hezbollah are firing rockets at Israel all the time, it just doesn’t make the news because they don’t get through.
Iran orchestrate Oct 7th, then say “The malicious Zionist regime will be punished”. Why does the supreme leader of a theocratic Sharia law regime have a problem with “Zionism”? Surely he puts religion more front and centre than the 20% Arab Israel does? Perhaps his issue is simply with Jews being in the Middle East.
His strategy will be to keep pushing the buttons of the hothead Netanyahu to the point that Israel keep lurching further to the right, become more aggressive and the West withdraws their support. So that missile strikes such as the one he carried out the other day get through and can wipe out Israel.
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Do you reckon that Hamas got the nod! From Isreal to go on a fervent Rape and Pillage raid, to give Isreal an excuse to wipe out the Palestinians?
I would have thought we would be looking at Several hundred thousand dead if the Israelis had gone down that road!
What are you on about?
You seem to be blaming Israel for the situation in Gaza not Hamas?
Where did I say that? Israel have chosen to kill as many civilians as it has, it didn't need to, anyone with two eyes could see how heavy and murderous Netanyahu would go in. I called what Hamas did a horrific terror attack, you might have missed that bit? 99% of terror attacks against nations are unprovoked, I wouldn't say this time was entirely unprovoked though if you play devils advocate for a second, however I'm not condoning what happened, as said previous this is evil v evil.
We should focus more on helping Ukraine. Israel are too busy trying to start WW3 and we shouldn't support that. They chose to bomb Iran's consulate and are choosing to retaliate after Iran's retaliation, where Iran have called the matter closed and both nations don't look weak to their people.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
That would explain a handful, not 30,000+ civilians dead. They're leveling towns and cities, they don't care, prime example killing the aid workers last week.
They're just radicalising children by murdering their innocent family members in front of them, which will cause another cycle in years time.
Hamas are evil.
The government of Israel and the IDF are evil.
October the 7th wasn't the beginning of this conflict, it's been going on for decades and hadn't paused like some believe prior to a few months ago. There was/is still the land grabs by Israelis, murder of Palestinian children at the border, apartheid, etc. The horrific terrorist attack by Hamas and their allies in the West Bank just gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go in and kill Palestinians.
Come on DO. You know that while civilian deaths are of course sad that the 30,000+ figure quoted by the Gazan Health Ministry is not accurate. BRR has admitted this too but still uses their data. Why?
Their definition of a civilian is extremely broad and includes Hamas terrorists. Terrorists who look to maximise civilian casualties themselves to further their cause.
Hamas are just one of Iran’s many proxies. Oct 7th was engineered by them. Let us not forget that Hezbollah are firing rockets at Israel all the time, it just doesn’t make the news because they don’t get through.
Iran orchestrate Oct 7th, then say “The malicious Zionist regime will be punished”. Why does the supreme leader of a theocratic Sharia law regime have a problem with “Zionism”? Surely he puts religion more front and centre than the 20% Arab Israel does? Perhaps his issue is simply with Jews being in the Middle East.
His strategy will be to keep pushing the buttons of the hothead Netanyahu to the point that Israel keep lurching further to the right, become more aggressive and the West withdraws their support. So that missile strikes such as the one he carried out the other day get through and can wipe out Israel.
The BBC, Oxfam, The UN and many others have agreed the figures are around that.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
That would explain a handful, not 30,000+ civilians dead. They're leveling towns and cities, they don't care, prime example killing the aid workers last week.
They're just radicalising children by murdering their innocent family members in front of them, which will cause another cycle in years time.
Hamas are evil.
The government of Israel and the IDF are evil.
October the 7th wasn't the beginning of this conflict, it's been going on for decades and hadn't paused like some believe prior to a few months ago. There was/is still the land grabs by Israelis, murder of Palestinian children at the border, apartheid, etc. The horrific terrorist attack by Hamas and their allies in the West Bank just gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go in and kill Palestinians.
Come on DO. You know that while civilian deaths are of course sad that the 30,000+ figure quoted by the Gazan Health Ministry is not accurate. BRR has admitted this too but still uses their data. Why?
Their definition of a civilian is extremely broad and includes Hamas terrorists. Terrorists who look to maximise civilian casualties themselves to further their cause.
Hamas are just one of Iran’s many proxies. Oct 7th was engineered by them. Let us not forget that Hezbollah are firing rockets at Israel all the time, it just doesn’t make the news because they don’t get through.
Iran orchestrate Oct 7th, then say “The malicious Zionist regime will be punished”. Why does the supreme leader of a theocratic Sharia law regime have a problem with “Zionism”? Surely he puts religion more front and centre than the 20% Arab Israel does? Perhaps his issue is simply with Jews being in the Middle East.
His strategy will be to keep pushing the buttons of the hothead Netanyahu to the point that Israel keep lurching further to the right, become more aggressive and the West withdraws their support. So that missile strikes such as the one he carried out the other day get through and can wipe out Israel.
The BBC, Oxfam, The UN and many others have agreed the figures are around that.
I’m happy to stand corrected but that’s very similar to the total number coming out of the Gazan Health Ministry
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Nc, your sources are poor. As DO said, the figures are widely supported. Indeed if you have eyes, you can see what happened. More than likely the figure is higher. Anyway, what are you quibbling about? 20k dead not significant for you?
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The biggest problem, as pointed out by DO, with the likes of sproty, Nc, Selby Is they are intent on backing an insane evil strategy that bleeds violence to the future, as well as in the present. BST would bring Hitler into this, and would be correct in this instance.
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But as for the above, Israel is very much as bad as it gets. Deliberately murdering 35k civilians is pretty evil don't you think?
Casualties of War caused by a bunch of Cowards using Women and Children as a shield!
That would explain a handful, not 30,000+ civilians dead. They're leveling towns and cities, they don't care, prime example killing the aid workers last week.
They're just radicalising children by murdering their innocent family members in front of them, which will cause another cycle in years time.
Hamas are evil.
The government of Israel and the IDF are evil.
October the 7th wasn't the beginning of this conflict, it's been going on for decades and hadn't paused like some believe prior to a few months ago. There was/is still the land grabs by Israelis, murder of Palestinian children at the border, apartheid, etc. The horrific terrorist attack by Hamas and their allies in the West Bank just gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go in and kill Palestinians.
Come on DO. You know that while civilian deaths are of course sad that the 30,000+ figure quoted by the Gazan Health Ministry is not accurate. BRR has admitted this too but still uses their data. Why?
Their definition of a civilian is extremely broad and includes Hamas terrorists. Terrorists who look to maximise civilian casualties themselves to further their cause.
Hamas are just one of Iran’s many proxies. Oct 7th was engineered by them. Let us not forget that Hezbollah are firing rockets at Israel all the time, it just doesn’t make the news because they don’t get through.
Iran orchestrate Oct 7th, then say “The malicious Zionist regime will be punished”. Why does the supreme leader of a theocratic Sharia law regime have a problem with “Zionism”? Surely he puts religion more front and centre than the 20% Arab Israel does? Perhaps his issue is simply with Jews being in the Middle East.
His strategy will be to keep pushing the buttons of the hothead Netanyahu to the point that Israel keep lurching further to the right, become more aggressive and the West withdraws their support. So that missile strikes such as the one he carried out the other day get through and can wipe out Israel.
The BBC, Oxfam, The UN and many others have agreed the figures are around that.
Most independent organisations actually state this number is likely much lower than the real figure, as it is likely many bodies are still buried under rubble.
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Yes of course. Like I said, happy to stand corrected.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/15/iran-israel-russia-drones-missiles/
I wonder what the Israeli War Cabinet will make of this?
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No one but Israel wants to escalate this. Not the Americans who have already said they aren't going to war with Iran. Not even the Iranians who flagged up what they intended to do and quickly said it's done with now.
It's Netanyahu and the Israeli right who are trying to set this course. There should be no retaliation against Iran.
''Benjamin Netanyahu is seeking to trap the west into a total war across the Middle East that would have incalculable consequences for the region and the world, Iran’s top diplomat in the UK has claimed, in his first interview since Tehran launched an unprecedented missile and drone attack against Israel at the weekend''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/16/netanyahu-aims-to-trap-west-into-war-across-middle-east-warns-iranian-diplomat
Most leaders across the world would agree with this but few will say so in public.
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Netanyahu tells Cameron that Israel makes its own decisions. Cameron doesn't tell Israel that therefore UK goodwill, jets, missiles, and tax payers money won't be helping.
Cameron/UK acting like a shit dad to a spoilt child?
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Apparently Israeli got a mass of Kudos from the attack and a lot of sympathy and attention so much so that they may well let a counter strike go and reap the benefits of not doing so!
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Just what Israel wanted, Iran's attack has shown who is pulling the strings, it has taken away the media's concentration on what is going on in the Gaza strip.
They can take their time just doing what they have been doing out of the glare and can sort Iran out in their own time with a more planned attack on higher value targets.
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Irans states they will make a nuclear bomb https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/18/israel-hamas-war-latest-news6/
Sprotyrover says a joint preemptive strike is necessary against ALL military sites in Iran, send em back into the Stone Age!
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Sounds like the Torygraph is pulling strings in Sproty and Selby.
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BRR surely you can at least admit that there is also some warmongering on Iran’s part?
BBC reporting an Israeli missile strike has hit Iran but Iran saying it hasn’t? (As in their air defences were triggered but it didn’t land I think?)
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Iran v Israel has been tense for a very long time. Iran has been targeting border areas of Israel from Syria for a long time. Israel has been bombing Iranians and direct allies in Syria for a long time. Israel went over the line by bombing the consulate. Israel tends to go over the line frequently, evidently. The nuke escalation threat is from Israel if anywhere.
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BRR, it's obvious you are unaware of how things pan out, Israel are methodical, will only move when they are organised, have the ability to deliver munitions accurately, and when conditions are verified, sometimes by spotters on the ground. They also want a second front to deflect media attention from manoeuvres in Gaza, and to cut off the head of the snake.
They are very good at what they do, and want to flush out the opposition into the open, a wider frontal war would suit them as it is where the opposition are not that good and they can deal with them on their terms.
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BRR, it's obvious you are unaware of how things pan out, Israel are methodical, will only move when they are organised, have the ability to deliver munitions accurately, and when conditions are verified, sometimes by spotters on the ground. They also want a second front to deflect media attention from manoeuvres in Gaza, and to cut off the head of the snake.
They are very good at what they do, and want to flush out the opposition into the open, a wider frontal war would suit them as it is where the opposition are not that good and they can deal with them on their terms.
Methodical etc? Israel screwed up then this time. If I was an Israeli with any real grasp on the live situation, I would be very worried.
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BRR, it's obvious you are unaware of how things pan out, Israel are methodical, will only move when they are organised, have the ability to deliver munitions accurately, and when conditions are verified, sometimes by spotters on the ground. They also want a second front to deflect media attention from manoeuvres in Gaza, and to cut off the head of the snake.
They are very good at what they do, and want to flush out the opposition into the open, a wider frontal war would suit them as it is where the opposition are not that good and they can deal with them on their terms.
Methodical etc? Israel screwed up then this time. If I was an Israeli with any real grasp on the live situation, I would be very worried.
I think you'll find that the Israelis aren't in the slightest worried about anything .
They've overcome their enemies every single time since 1948 and they'll overcome them today and whatever threatens them in the future .
They'll do whatever it takes to preserve the state of Israel and if the rest of the world doesn't like it then so what .
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The Israelis took out the Air Defence system for their Nuclear facilities in the missile strike
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BRR, it's obvious you are unaware of how things pan out, Israel are methodical, will only move when they are organised, have the ability to deliver munitions accurately, and when conditions are verified, sometimes by spotters on the ground. They also want a second front to deflect media attention from manoeuvres in Gaza, and to cut off the head of the snake.
They are very good at what they do, and want to flush out the opposition into the open, a wider frontal war would suit them as it is where the opposition are not that good and they can deal with them on their terms.
Methodical etc? Israel screwed up then this time. If I was an Israeli with any real grasp on the live situation, I would be very worried.
I think you'll find that the Israelis aren't in the slightest worried about anything .
They've overcome their enemies every single time since 1948 and they'll overcome them today and whatever threatens them in the future .
They'll do whatever it takes to preserve the state of Israel and if the rest of the world doesn't like it then so what .
Sadly that do whatever they want includes interfering with UK politics, as you know.
Meanwhile, the world moves on. Israel, or rather its US sponsors and associated lapdogs, are progressively less dominant militarily in the region. Making peace is the right thing to do. This is Israel's arrogant screw up.
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BRR, it's obvious you are unaware of how things pan out, Israel are methodical, will only move when they are organised, have the ability to deliver munitions accurately, and when conditions are verified, sometimes by spotters on the ground. They also want a second front to deflect media attention from manoeuvres in Gaza, and to cut off the head of the snake.
They are very good at what they do, and want to flush out the opposition into the open, a wider frontal war would suit them as it is where the opposition are not that good and they can deal with them on their terms.
The country with one of the largest military structures and espionage agencies in the world who were overwhelmed by people on homemade hanggliders who fire rockets from drain pipes - despite being warned it was going to happen? That the one that is 'very good at what they do' you are talking about?
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It's not them with the WOH IS ME sounds coming out of their backsides now though is it, There is no dancing in the streets now, just cries of will you stop doing it to us.
They said rubble, it's rubble and get used to the idea it will only end when they want to end it, yours and anyone else's thoughts just don't carry any weight whatsoever.
They even want others to get twitchy, like yourself, and do something spectacular in the West which will solidify their backing and flush out the Islamist's before they are ready.
It's a dirty business war both in the field and politically, and at the moment if they keep their nerve Israel are calling the shots and are not likely to give that position up until the time is right.
The Islamist's are the ones who have to be careful, the move has come five to ten years too soon for them to have a wider conflict and the Ukraine has shown them that numbers of soldiers no longer is the be all and end all technology and fire power is, and has also concentrated the West at what is going off in that part of the world where to a point they had taken their eye off the ball concentrating on China and the Ukraine.
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Yesterday I watched Al Jazeera News the headlines were about a building the Israeli Air Force bombed on Friday There was a Woman crying by a body bag talking , oh you will never live to see your children but you will in heaven! The new aster stated it was a small child killed in the bombed building! Next we pan to the sight of the building they talk to a bloke crying ”An Israeli Officer rang us and told us they we going to bomb the building and we had 15 minutes to evacuate,! 25 minutes later they bombed the building!” Now someone was telling Porkies! Was it the woman fawning over a body bag stuffed with a cushion perhaps?
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Spotty, that's dire point scoring on so many levels. Own goals, leaping off a cliff, punching yourself in the face, even setting yourself on fire. Why?
On the other hand, could be worse. Selby does the above, plus spins his head and projectile vomits green bile.
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Eyes tight shut in your own world again BRR, Why is it like Syd the insults start straight away when you disagree and get personal, is it an inferior complex? or is it you don't like the wife telling you to do the washing up while you have nothing else to do while you sit there in a dream world?
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Funny how someone starts crying about a tongue in cheek comment yet can come out with bile that smugly supports racism, abuse, and death of tens of thousands. Nowt as queer, eh?
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Eyes tight shut in your own world again BRR, Why is it like Syd the insults start straight away when you disagree and get personal, is it an inferior complex? or is it you don't like the wife telling you to do the washing up while you have nothing else to do while you sit there in a dream world?
just thought I'd save this as it's a perfect example of self diagnosis.
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Ah the disciple's and the word of the Lord, never fails, just a hook no bait.
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Funny how someone starts crying about a tongue in cheek comment yet can come out with bile that smugly supports racism, abuse, and death of tens of thousands. Nowt as queer, eh?
You shouldn't be so hard on extreme Islam BRR , try to remember that they've only ever read one book in their entire life and you need make allowances for them .
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hope not hate tyke
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Apparently that Syrian Orthodox Bishop in Syds town got stabbed for pointing out a verse in the Quoran “Jesus ascended to God his father in Heaven whilst the Prophet meekly died and didn’t do a thing . “ some Tit in Oz took umbrage and stabbed him but the Flick knife failed and he cut his own finger off! There are some right Twits out there in the land of OZ Aye!
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Just what Israel wanted, three days since the last post on here, interest at a low, and they have started to dish it out again and the storming of Rafa about to begin.
Come on lads wake up, there will be some right Woh is me to post about.
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All quiet on the Eastern front.
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Apart from Bibi talking absolute shite about the US demos. Just showing how he processes things. Shows why Israel is in an alternate reality.
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OOP'S who woke you up BRR, hope you got out at the right side of the bed buddy.
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I did thanks, and I'd invite you to try to do the same, as progressively the Western MSM are doing in kicking back at the Israeli lies about their genocidal behaviour. This is because more people are seeing through the lies of Israel so the MSM has to reflect that.
As someone pointed out, the Israeli path of responses to acusations of war crimes goes like this:
Did you do it?
"No, it was Hamas."
Then, "Okay, we did do it but we didn't mean it."
Then, "We did do it, we actually meant it, but they were terrorists."
Then, "No, we did do it, we did mean it, and they were civilians but why do you keep asking us questions, that's antisemitic."
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So much about all this stinks, it just keeps on coming.
The military agreement between Israel and UK in Dec 2020.
The UK/Israeli partnership agreement made in 2021
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-israel-strategic-partnership-memorandum-of-understanding-2021/memorandum-of-understanding-between-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-of-israel-and-the-uk-foreign-commonwealth-development-office-on-the-uk-israel-s
and the "roadmap" agreed in March 2023.
https://www.declassifieduk.org/uk-military-support-for-israels-genocide-was-pre-planned/
And the arms deal between UK and Israel days after the IDF murder of the British aid workers
https://www.declassifieduk.org/uk-approved-arms-for-israel-days-after-it-killed-british-aid-workers/
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This vid I find particularly disturbing beyond the murder and destruction, as it describes the perverted mindset of troops on the ground. An IDF soldier says what he experienced.
Warning - there are a few blurred out incidents of blatent murder shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-VDAjL8vM
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Looks like your ploughing a loan furrow on here BRR, everyone else has got tired except the IDF who are still camped in Gaza steadily going about their business.
Keep going buddy Netanyahu might just take notice about September.
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Weak reply.
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The incidents in the US Campus demos are interesting. The pro Israel mob that attacked the encampment in UCLA were full on aggressive and violent. They even threw flares/fireworks into the encampment. Now, what does that remind you of? Not only that but the police turned up and let them continue for a further hour before intervening.
Says it all really - violent pro Israel, invading, bombing, supported by US authorities.
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They even threw flares/fireworks into the encampment. Now, what does that remind you of? Not only that but the police turned up and let them continue for a further hour before intervening.
Brentford away last game of the season 2013.
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Having seen the US rulers violent clamping down on its citizens objections expressed at Israeli state murder, does anyone suspect this state action is a free expression of the democratic US electorate?
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Bit like the Russian clampdown on.............. well anything really
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AH well, they are stopping supplying 200 and 500 pound bombs and they will have to sling the 1000 pounders about now.
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I'm very tempted to watch the Eurovision semi finals tonight. Big protests outside the event already happening, but inside?
I expect the crowd sound will be prerecorded, covering up the boos. The cameras will likewise be turned from any hint of protest. So, knowing this, it could be an extreme and/or wily protest. Or maybe security and whitewashing will be successful? Interesting either way.
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The incidents in the US Campus demos are interesting. The pro Israel mob that attacked the encampment in UCLA were full on aggressive and violent. They even threw flares/fireworks into the encampment. Now, what does that remind you of? Not only that but the police turned up and let them continue for a further hour before intervening.
Says it all really - violent pro Israel, invading, bombing, supported by US authorities.
I read a report that reckoned the pro-Israeli counter protesters weren't your regular Jewish students.
He identified one as a leading member of the Proud Boys.
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It doesn't matter any more the end game is now starting, first rule of engagement when you have your boot on the neck exert pressure.
It will be over in two or three weeks in Gaza and will change to hunting down the Hamas leaders where ever they go.
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Explain how that is over.
Everyone knows, at the very best for Israel, the radicalisation of tens of thousands has happened, is increasing daily. Arms will be available. Other means too. Every Israeli is under more threat than ever before.
Using your analogy, squeezing with your foot, whilst a crowd of the victims brethren gather round you with a multitude of weapons and fury. You may have friends but they will forever be more in number, greater in desire. Just a bit of a stooopid action, eh? Better off now running as far away as possible, vanishing.
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Explain how that is over.
Everyone knows, at the very best for Israel, the radicalisation of tens of thousands has happened, is increasing daily. Arms will be available. Other means too. Every Israeli is under more threat than ever before.
Using your analogy, squeezing with your foot, whilst a crowd of the victims brethren gather round you with a multitude of weapons and fury. You may have friends but they will forever be more in number, greater in desire. Just a bit of a stooopid action, eh? Better off now running as far away as possible, vanishing.
They need to finish what Hamas started and make sure they won’t be able to do it again!
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Explain how that is over.
Everyone knows, at the very best for Israel, the radicalisation of tens of thousands has happened, is increasing daily. Arms will be available. Other means too. Every Israeli is under more threat than ever before.
Using your analogy, squeezing with your foot, whilst a crowd of the victims brethren gather round you with a multitude of weapons and fury. You may have friends but they will forever be more in number, greater in desire. Just a bit of a stooopid action, eh? Better off now running as far away as possible, vanishing.
Heard all this before about the impending destruction of Israel , heard it a hundred times .
It generally goes like this , the Israelis will deal with their enemies more brutally and will have to kill more of them .
There will never be a state of Palestine that replaces Israel .
If you want all this nastiness to stop then give it up .
The Israelis can shoot fish in a barrel till the end of time if they need to .
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I will give you that BRR they don't spend much on contraception, they should stop buying Russian and Chinese guns and spend more on the former.
That's a good question really are Russia China and Iran etc breaking international law supplying the Palestinians' with arms, or is it only the countries that supply Israel.
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n Is no reply your indication of I don't know or er.
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Israeli settlers destroying food aid to Gaza;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg300jek94zo
Beyond humanity!
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Apparently they want to build settlements in Gaza!
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Absolutely disgusting. That won’t get them support anywhere in the world. This a
Wants condemning by the United Nations.
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Labour speak your weight automaton Pat Mcfadden "clarifies" the party postion on selling arms to Israel;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1775068011096895488/pu/vid/avc1/1280x716/J6I8ZCpkGgYiRqiM.mp4?tag=12
How is this bloke allowed out without supervision?
If he was any less intelligent he'd have roots!
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I will give you that BRR they don't spend much on contraception, they should stop buying Russian and Chinese guns and spend more on the former.
That's a good question really are Russia China and Iran etc breaking international law supplying the Palestinians' with arms, or is it only the countries that supply Israel.
Thats like accusing folks of helping Jews in the Polish Ghetto. I guess if you have an issue with such action...
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What I don’t understand about the Palestinian people in Gaza is whilst they have been living in an enclave and surfing almost entirely on handouts they have managed to double their Population in 20 years! What’s that all about?
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What I don’t understand about the Palestinian people in Gaza is whilst they have been living in an enclave and surfing almost entirely on handouts they have managed to double their Population in 20 years! What’s that all about?
But, but, genocide……????